What Does God Need With a Political Starship?
With the President’s fortunes in the election, in court, and just about everywhere else going poorly, there has been an upswell in his supporters making appeals to a higher authority to try change the tides of fate.
“We seriously, sincerely cry out to you,” former Congresswoman & presidential candidate Michele Bachmann prayed on a tweeted video: “We ask you, O God, for deliverance, that our country may continue to know freedom. Would you deliver these races in Georgia, O Father? Would you deliver various local and state races, Father … and O God, I personally ask, for myself, Michele Bachmann, Lord, would you allow Donald Trump to have a second term as president of the United States?”
Faith and politics are not strangers in America, but this is coming at it a tad high. Fearing that many of those who heard his words of reconciliation in his second inaugural address would not heed them, Abraham Lincoln wrote, “Men are not flattered by being shown that there has been a difference of purpose between the Almighty and them”. He was proven right, although he wouldn’t live to see it. And apparently, the more things change the more they, apparently, stay the same.
God always answers prayers, Ms. Rule taught us in Sunday School, but that doesn’t mean you will like the answer, or even recognize it, or even know he has… if all you are looking for is the answer you want. Ego is such a part of dealing with the divine that every major faith addresses it. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, mankind’s first notable act was to demonstrate he thought he knew better than God and thus ruin the whole plan right from the start.
Good going, Adam.
So, it is better — in my humble but accurate opinion — to deal with matters of faith by coming at them with a whole heaping bunch of humility, even more personal honesty, and a fair amount of admitting what you do and don’t know and can and can’t control. Or, as Henry Ward Beecher put it, “It is not well for a man to pray cream and live skim milk.”
This deep and profound struggle between the ego of man and accurately reading the divine was addressed by noted Canadian thespian William Shatner in his 1989 theological magnum opus — in which he both wrote the story for, starred in, and directed — Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. Shatner’s original idea for the movie that is now widely-panned and infamous as the worst of the 13-and-counting Star Trek films, was for Kirk and crew to battle not God, but Satan pretending to be God. This plot was inspired by the televangelists of the ‘80s that were, even by 2020 standards, a hot mess and readymade villains regardless of planet.
Criticized both for being too religious for a Trek film and bearing too many similarities to the not-well-received Star Trek: The Motion Picture, this outing saw the Enterprise forcibly commandeered by Spock’s long-lost half-brother Sybok (Laurence Luckenbill), to undertake a literal quest for God. While some of the comedy bits and the relationships between the characters drew praise, most dismissed the film as a mess that tried to answer a question that no one asked, “What does God need with a starship?”
Ahead of Shatner’s new book Live Long And… What I Might Have Learned Along The Way hitting shelves, the website Trek Movie has offered up some tidbits gleaned from its pages. Among them is a recollection that when producers rejected Shatner’s original idea (which was inspired by televangelists, and would have revealed “God” as actually being the devil), they offered him a deal: compromise on the script and he could still sit in the director’s chair. Shatner now believes that his willingness to alter the story “doomed the picture from the beginning.”
While whether or not keeping the original idea of having Kirk square off with Satan in order to rescue Bones and Spock from Hell would have saved the film from infamy is debatable, at least Shatner now acknowledges that he bears some responsibility for an entry that almost killed the franchise.
I must disagree: “What does God need with a starship?” is a pressing matter of the day. It gets to the core of faith in a higher power: if God is indeed all-powerful and ruling over the affairs of humankind to one degree or another, then God does not need humans to be so, or else God is not God at all. It turns out Shatner was just ahead of his time, because here we are in the Year of Our Lord 2020 and here come the Sybokians on a quest to find God at the new center of the (political) universe: Georgia.
A group of evangelical Christians plans a barnstorming tour of Georgia this weekend to press for “biblical citizenship” and “restoration of biblical values and constitutional principles” ahead of the state’s runoff election for its two U.S. Senate seats.
“Georgia has become the center of the political universe,” said the tour’s website, “and the body of Christ has the opportunity to protect our God given freedoms for generations to come.”
The tour is headlined by Rick Green, founder of the Christian nationalist Patriot Academy; conservative Christian author and activist David Barton; and his son Tim, a minister who runs the activist group WallBuilders with his father.
Other featured speakers include actor and activist Kirk Cameron; Rep. Barry Loudermilk (R-Ga.); former congresswoman Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.); Charlie Kirk, conservative activist and co-founder of Liberty University’s Falkirk Center; and conservative comedian Brad Stine.
God needs the starship of the American system of governance, you see, according to this group. His will on Earth can only be accomplished through the application of raw political force to exert influence for American political parties, and make sure you really show your faith by donating to our various 501C3s, they will say. This is a good dividing line that needs to be discerned between folks of faith and good will, and others who scheme and plot for their own devices under cloak and gimmick of religion. Those who need God for their spiritual needs, and those who need you to need God to need a spaceship so political things can get done. All this unbridled talk of God and politics in the aftermath of an election that saw plenty of…
Actually, hold that thought. Let’s back up…
It is 1999, in the way way back, the before times, prior to social media, smartphones, and when Amazon still mostly sold books. The governor of Texas caused a sensation with a comment he made in Iowa:
The Washington Post took note of this development back then:
For evangelicals, who make up the nation’s most active religious voting bloc, Bush’s answer was something of a coming out: In their circles, Bush is legendary for his spontaneous outbursts about the impact of Christ on his life, but this was the first time the nation got a chance to hear one.
“I was watching the debate with my wife and daughter in the room, neither of whom are political junkies,” said Richard Land, a leader in the Southern Baptist Convention. “And when they heard that answer they both stopped what they were doing, looked at me and said ‘Wow’.”
But others were more skeptical. “To see Christ as a political philosopher is to lose sight of what we believe,” said Rich Cizik, spokesman for the National Association of Evangelicals. “It seems more like a political statement, and there is always a temptation to use religious faith for partisan purposes.”
Whatever his intentions on the Iowa stage, Bush is pioneering a more personal religious style in his courtship of evangelical votes. Rather than agreeing to a checklist of religious right issues such as abortion and gay rights, Bush seeks to connect to his fellow born-again Christians “from the heart,” as he likes to say. On the stump, he regularly tells evangelical audiences the story of his own religious conversion, substituting style for substantive policy concessions.
“He talks their language,” said Land. “Most evangelicals who heard that question probably thought ‘That’s exactly the way I would have answered that.’ ”
This makes Bush unusual in the field. The Republican candidates who are running as religious conservatives–Steve Forbes, Gary Bauer, Alan Keyes–have mostly consented to the usual list of evangelical policy demands, such as agreeing to pick a running mate and judges who oppose abortion, and staying tough on China.
Ah, we were so young then, so naive…
Fast forward 20-odd years, and we have come a very long way down the road of faith in the political sphere, so far that a discussion of whether or not George W. Bush meant what he said about Jesus seems almost laughably quaint and innocent. The apron of Burke Lakefront Airport in Cleveland is not an especially well-known spot for theological dissertations, but such is life in 2020 and such was the theology of the 2020 Presidential Election. This time, it was a New Yorker who had become president by grabbing the evangelical base by the Bible belt, telling them exactly what they wanted to hear, and using winning to cover a multitude of sins.
“(Biden is) following the radical left agenda,” President Donald Trump explained, “Take away your guns, destroy your Second Amendment. No religion, no anything. Hurt the Bible, hurt God…He’s against God, he’s against guns. He’s against energy, our kind of energy.”
These are not unfamiliar themes to political discourse in America. Recall the discourse-dominating kerfuffle that then-Senator Barack Obama stirred up when he remarked in Pennsylvania that folks from hard-hit working class areas “get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.” The remarks fit nicely into criticism from the right, particularly the religious right, that the Obama family’s faith was not to their liking. The church they had been members of in Chicago was held up for scrutiny, while piece after piece was written about President Obama’s lack of church attendance once he won the White House.
Given the already-formed narrative, the “bitter clingers” remarks were cast as a peek into the future President’s true feelings on faith and God. “I was taken aback by the demeaning remarks Senator Obama made about people in small-town America,” remarked one opponent of the president who was aghast at his comments. “His remarks are elitist and out of touch…I’m not bitter.” That darn right wing just pounces on ev… oh, wait, that was Hillary Clinton who said that. It was an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to rescue her 2008 campaign that the upstart Obama ultimately conquered. You would think she would have learned from that, but eight years later, her own “basket of deplorables” remark haunted her second run for the president and launched a merchandizing line for the MAGA folks. She, of course, attended church as First Lady with her husband before, during, and after his own scandals and trials as president. His panel of spiritual advisors and oversized Bible in the pictures of him leaving church brought plenty of comments, as his church attendance while running to reclaim the governorship of Arkansas had a decade before that.
President Clinton’s successor, the aforementioned George W. Bush, was very open as president about his personal faith, regularly attending church and invoking his faith including famously during that debate in Iowa. Bush 43 made no bones about his faith, or his conversion, or the role faith played in turning his life around. That was a departure from his father, Clinton’s presidential predecessor George H.W. Bush, who continued the great WASP-ish tradition of which he was practically a poster child by maintaining his Episcopalian bearing and not talking of his personal religion much in public. Bush 41’s predecessor, Ronald Reagan, is revered only below the saints themselves by many Christians on the American right, despite the fact he hardly ever went to church at all. Jimmy Carter, a man of unimpeachable personal faith, whom Reagan displaced after one term in office, still taught Sunday school until COVID-19 finally halted the long-running tradition. America has swung between presidents for whom their faith was open and political and those for whom it was personal and private.
But few have attempted to harness the political power of invoking God as much as President Trump does (while having an inverse ratio of actually knowing anything about religion at all). From Two Corinthians, to holding a Bible in the cleared-out street in front of St John’s, to insinuating that Biden will “Hurt the Bible, hurt God…He’s against God” President Trump has been on the cutting edge of wielding God as a rhetorical weapon. The sword of the Lord and Trumpism, or something.
As with everything in his Presidency, of course, this debate over faith-based rhetorical warfare has often been more about his opponents than himself. In the weeks leading into November, we had a long and loud back-and-forth about the faith (or lack thereof to those who opposed him) of one Joseph Biden:
“This is a now party that embraces faith and people of faith,” gushed Jennifer Rubin in her Washington Post column on that same Joe Biden’s acceptance speech at the conclusion of the DNC: “a far cry from previous years in which Democrats too often avoided anything that smacked of religion.”
“I’m all about rubbing it in GOPs face that our nominee actually goes to church,” tweeted Markos Moulitsas about the Democratic Parties posture coming out of their convention. “Ours is now objectively the party of faith, family values, and national defense.”
“In watching some of the Democratic National Convention on television this week,” Franklin Graham posted on Facebook;, “it has been interesting to see the absence of God. I don’t believe America’s finest hours will be in front of us if we take God out of government and public life. It is God who set the standards we are to live by.”
And as always, the President was always happy to hit the front lines of the Culture War as the campaign got down to the nitty gritty:
The Democrats took the word GOD out of the Pledge of Allegiance at the Democrat National Convention. At first, I thought they made a mistake, but it wasn’t. It was done on purpose. Remember Evangelical Christians, and ALL, this is where they are coming from-it’s done. Vote Nov 3!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 22, 2020
If God be for us, who can Tweet against us, or something. All Aboard the USS (United States Starship) Deus Vult, destination second star to the right and straight on ’til the first quarter FEC filing deadline. In 20 short years, we’ve gone from being surprised that W would utter the words Jesus Christ in admiration during a political debate to the point where declaring your opponent to be a godless heretic has become a prerequisite for proving your political ideological bone fides.
The problem of both sides claiming that God is on their team, at least back here on Earth, is that somebody has to be wrong. This has been the case throughout human history, of course. But, in American politics, this particular strain of politicized religiosity has found a fertile field that is now ready for harvest. During the Civil War, where both sides openly declared God to be on their side, there was a debated quote from Abraham Lincoln that addressed this mess. The inspiration poster version goes something along the lines of “Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.” But that isn’t exactly how it went down, and the context of why he said it — and who he said it too — changes things quite a bit.
We tracked down Abraham Lincoln’s words on God’s will. The original source appears to be a book titled Six Months in the White House with Abraham Lincoln , written by Francis B. Carpenter and published in 1867, not long after Lincoln’s death. The following is from Page 282 of Carpenter’s account:
“No nobler reply ever fell from the lips of a ruler, than that uttered by President Lincoln in response to the clergyman who ventured to say, in his presence, that he hoped ‘the Lord was on our side.’
“‘I am not at all concerned about that,’ replied Mr. Lincoln, ‘for I know that the Lord is always on the side of the right. But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord’s side.'”
Our government and country, this nation as the greatest experiment in a free people self-governing, is still ostensibly under our control and mostly what we make of it. God is not under our control. And while each one of us is free to pursue or not pursue issues of faith and spirituality, folks insisting that it is we who steer the Eternal are telling you that they lack any purpose other than thinking everyone must agree with them. To use nomenclature like “biblical citizenship” and “restoration of biblical values and constitutional principles” for a nation as diverse in people and beliefs as America — where many take those terms multiple ways if believing in them at all — it begs the question of “What does God need with a starship?” Even, maybe especially, if that starship is the ship of state.
The answer for you, me, America, and Captain Kirk is all the same: If one is truly God, then there is no need for a starship, political or otherwise, made of human hands to affect the purposes of the divine.
That’s no fun of course. Folks want to be important. They want to be the straw that stirs the supernatural drink. The service of God is all well and good. But to be the serving of God upon others is much more gratifying. And when they don’t get their way, the aggrieved want someone much more powerful than they to do the smiting of the enemies, to get Old Testament on their unbelieving opponents. But that isn’t very godly at all; it’s just more of the same old bareknuckle human politics dressed in a religious vestment to try and make it more righteous. “Restoration of biblical values and constitutional principles in America” has a better ring it than the more accurate “Me First and the Gimme Gimme and the government should make it so” of what such folks are actually asking for. Someone should let these folks know that a government empowered to give you everything your faith wants, is a government empowered to take away everything that your faith has on this side of eternity.
So, you get what we have now in Georgia. Having convinced themselves God wants Donald Trump to be president, heaven and earth must be moved to make it so. Because God cannot be wrong and the President’s faithful of the faithful know exactly what God wants. Anything else is unpossible, and therefore clearly of the devil, or at least the globalist, and definitely the Deep State, and probably (for the sake of brevity, just insert your personal favorite dark evil force here and let’s move on).
The catechism of Trumpism …. Trump: "We're all victims. Everybody here, all these thousands of people here tonight. They're all victims. Every one of you." pic.twitter.com/okbHUZsPAL
— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) December 6, 2020
Lincoln understood just how hard such sentiments were to bore through in helming the nation through its darkest hour and tried to balance the inspiration he sought from above with the brutality of the humans alongside and often directed by or at him. His now-revered Second Inaugural Address heavily borrowed on religious symbolism, quoting or paraphrasing a half-dozen Scriptures, and using the themes of Divine Purpose to beg a torn country to start thinking towards reconciliation and healing. But at the time, with the war raging on even with the outcome clear, many didn’t want to hear that message. “Thank you for yours on my little notification speech, and on the recent Inaugural Address. I expect the latter to wear as well as—perhaps better than—anything I have produced,” Lincoln wrote to Thurlow Weed eleven days after the inauguration. “But I believe it is not immediately popular. Men are not flattered by being shown that there has been a difference of purpose between the Almighty and them. To deny it, however, in this case, is to deny that there is a God governing the world. It is a truth which I thought needed to be told; and as whatever of humiliation there is in it, falls most directly on myself, I thought others might afford for me to tell it.”
That offensive truth Lincoln felt compelled to tell, of “With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right,” drew stark contrast against a Confederacy that bore the motto ‘Deo vindice’ on its seal. As if a just God would vindicate their treason and declared first freedom of slavery. A God that would vindicate such wickedness could not be a god at all, any more than a god that needs a starship to escape the center of the universe or the valiant acting of Laurence Luckinbill as Sybok laboring through bad plot and dialogue.
It turns out folks were wrong back in 1989: the question “what does God need with a starship” actually does need to be asked. And wrestled with. And tested. Arrogant as it may have been for Shatner to pit himself in character against “God, “inside the structure of the plot it makes perfect sense to ask what Spock termed “a valid question” of why does God need a starship. And it makes even more sense to challenge, like Sybok, “why is God angry” and shooting lightning at the honest, earnest questioner.
Throughout our history, and now again in Georgia, there will be a cohort of folks gathering under a banner of faith, declaring that their cause is God’s own work. And if you ask them why God needs a political starship, they will start with an explainer filled with the buzzwords and nomenclature of modern Evangelical thought. But push further, and you will get the anger. And when they don’t get their way in overturning the election, they will quickly change gears from “deus vult” and God wills it, to “deo vindice” and God will vindicate. Neither will be true, but that isn’t the point. The point is they need God to need that starship to rescue them from things outside their control. Otherwise, they might have to admit they weren’t really in God’s will in the first place. The faith of Bush in 1999 of Christ changing your heart is fine and all, but imagine what you can do with an army of folks convinced their candidate is the very anointed of God. Strength in numbers pledging devotion to a man who is open about not being one of their own to make their worldly wants a reality is not faith; it is wishing upon a starship to beam you up out of your troubles.
But Sybok was onto something with one thing. “Each man hides a secret pain,” he would pitch to his perspective acolytes. “It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light.” That can be useful in spiritual matters. That can be a path to forgiveness and redemption and turning a life around. It would be a fine thing for someone to do with their faith and their God in an effort to better understand both.
It’s just too bad that folks turn to politics for that instead of the spiritual, frankensteining the ideals of spiritual faith with the instant gratification of groupthink and worldly gain. Working out your faith the old-fashioned way, with purpose and resolve and a lifetime of effort and little to show for it from a world that doesn’t understand it except a life well-lived is just so hard.
For some, it just takes too much faith.
God answers every prayer. Usually the answer is no.Report
“O Lord, please send an agent of change to bring about justice!”
“Dude. I created you. Stop stalling and get to work.”Report
The ever favorite: “I sent cops, a boat, and a helicopter.”Report
Bible says black letter God grants all prayers.
John 15:7 : If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Mark 11:24 : Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Matthew 21:22 : And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.
John 14:14 : If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
Those examples are just the tip of the iceberg. https://www.openbible.info/topics/god_answering_prayersReport
That’s what it says. But is it true?Report
The bible also says we shall not wear fabric blends or engage in selective breeding.Report
No it doesn’t. The Bible has a lot of rules for Jewish ritual, but no one else is obligated to follow them.Report
Well, we now think that. It was a live and contentious issue during the lifetime of the original disciples and Paul.Report
…at which point it was resolved. Now, as a Catholic, I have no problem with the idea of the Church being guided to greater understanding of the Bible, as Jesus promised. But the whole ritual question was pretty well settled in the first forty years of the Church, while the NT was being written, and it was emphatically closed by 70 AD.Report
That raises the question of how a religious issue gets “resolved.” Since there is no ascertainable truth of the matter on any theological proposition, the only alternatives are: (1) win a vote; (2) win a fight, or: (3) split. You can’t just point to a text and say, “See?”Report
There is a very effective way to ensure these questions are resolved, but no one expects it.Report
+1Report
OK, fine, let’s try a different tack (reminder, I am very agnostic and my knowledge of scripture is damn little).
God has a plan. God has spent a lot of time on said plan. God is not inclined to alter the plan just because some whiny humans offer prayers asking for things that would alter the plan.
Joe Biden as POTUS is part of the plan.
Ergo, sometimes God says ‘No’, because saying ‘Yes’ messes with the plan.Report
Could it be that God’s plan includes us praying for things?Report
Here’s the thing about praying for something that is not limited in scope to the individual, you get conflicting requests.
If a good Christian sincerely prays for Trump to win, and another good Christian sincerely prays for Trump to lose, whose prayer is answered? Does God tally up the prayers like votes, does your prayer count more if you are a good Christian (like illegal votes? OMG! GOD STOLE THE ELECTION!)?
Seems to me that most of the time, God does say “No”. At least when it comes to prayers that involve community. I mean, we don’t have world peace yet, and lots of folks been praying for that one for a long damn time.Report
When I say God’s plan includes us praying, I’m not saying that we overwhelm him with votes or anything. If God truly views all of eternity at once, it’d be no problem for him to include situations where intercessory prayer is answered. I have no problem with the idea of God saying “no”, however.
The Church records a history of miracles. Some of them may be battles won, but most of them are gifts granted in the sight of small groups, often at the request of a saint. The unbeliever can easily write such things off as imagination or deception, but the small miracle seems more consistent with the whole free-will plus omnipotence thing.Report
See, that aligns with my understanding.
Small, subtly miracles buoy faith. Large, obvious miracles can destroy it. And faith is at the heart of it all, IIRC.
And I agree, God should absolutely be able to say ‘No’. And do so without explanation, for their ways are mysterious, after all.Report
“All these crutches, and not a single wooden leg.”Report
From Huckleberry Finn:
I think that’s a power of prayer; that if you humble yourself before God and try your hardest to pray sincerely, you know what is a legitimate prayer (e.g. a loved one’s health) and what is not (e.g. the Jets covering the spread). In other words, the point of prayer isn’t to change the future. The point of prayer is to pray.Report
Except the ones about sex, of course.Report
Sounds easy if you abide in God and his words abide in you. But what does that mean? To be fully conformed to God. Look at the context of the first passage you cited:
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.”
That’s not about getting stuff, it’s about praying to bear fruit. Likewise, look at the context of the next one:
“Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. “Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”
Why add the part about forgiveness? Because if you really have faith in God, you’re going to live according to his will. So sure, tossing around mountains sounds fun, but if you truly believe in God and conform to his will you have more important things to do. So I don’t think those quotes and the other ones on that link are so unconditional.Report
‘Stop mistaking God for your Amazon wishlist, a homily.’Report
“Bible says black letter God grants all prayers.”
This is the part where we tell the joke about the truck, the boat, and the helicopter…Report
First of all, I don’t see anything odd about praying for the results of an election. It’s both scriptural and instinctive to offer intercessory prayer. It’d be strange if one believed in an all-powerful God, loved one’s country, and didn’t think to offer up a prayer for it. If one believed that a candidate was being unjustly denied the presidency, it’d be expected to ask God to change the outcome. I don’t think anyone believes that the election results could hurt God. (Trump bumps words against each other like a carnival game. There’s no theological underpinning to it.)
In addition to praying over the last election, people are using this opportunity to use religion to really voters for the next election. As this article notes, there’s a risk in presuming to know God’s will, but the action is perfectly reasonable in a democracy. We vote on the basis of our assessment of the world and of the candidates, and for most people, religious belief is part of their framework for understanding the world.Report
First of all, I don’t see anything odd about praying for the results of an election. It’s both scriptural and instinctive to offer intercessory prayer. It’d be strange if one believed in an all-powerful God, loved one’s country, and didn’t think to offer up a prayer for it. If one believed that a candidate was being unjustly denied the presidency, it’d be expected to ask God to change the outcome.
Please don’t take what follows as snark, but as an honest question, using a extreme hypothetical
I am told that there’s n oncoming Patriot-Rams game in a few days. I’ve heard the Patriots are a good team (I don’t follow the NFL), and apparently the rams are also an OK team. I am sure plenty of people will pray for victory in that game
So how does God decide who wins? Does He take a tally of the prayers He hears, and gives the win to the one team that got more intercessory prayers? So, Cam Newton or Jared Goff don’t really have anything to do with the result?
If my prayers can’t help my team win (God, please bless the Barça!!) then they probably can’t make Trump win the 2020 election. Games and elections are won and lost by people’s actions, and to say that, if only one more person prays for a Rams win, then the Patriots will know bitter defeat takes away all agency from our lives.
After all, if God will give the win to the team with more prayers, He can make more people pray for His (God’s) preferred team. It’s turtles all the way down
God does not need a spaceship. But, more importantly, He doesn’t want a spaceship.
And one last thought, if you pray for a win, and God rewards the other team, are you sure you are in God’s team? have you thought, you might be in the baddies’ team?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRUReport
Satan decides Patriots games.
You deserve a better answer than that, and I’ll get to one, but I couldn’t pass up that line.Report
“God, I asked you to let the Broncos beat the Chiefs on Sunday night, but they still lost lost. Why have you forsaken me?”
“Look, buddy, your defense held the most potent offense in the NFL to four field goals through most of the third quarter, and even blinded everyone in the stadium to the fact that Tyreek Hill actually CAUGHT that ball in the end zone. I opened the door. All the Broncos had to do was walk through it.”Report
If God intervened in the NFL, Tim Tebow would have Patrick Mahomes’s quick release.Report
He was needed more in baseball.Report
Someone has to save the minor leagues from Rob Manfred.Report
OK, the big-picture answer to this, according to traditional western Christian thinking, has to do with the distinction between the natural and the supernatural. From where we sit, natural is “what almost always happens” and supernatural is “a manual override”. From the supernatural point of view, the natural is more like the conditions that God set up and maintains out of his greatness, and the supernatural is what God does extraordinarily out of his greatness. There are different ways to try to explain nature, but this one is compatible with a spiritual dimension.
It’s human nature to root for a team, and since God knows what’s in our hearts, we really can’t help but pray for our side to have a victory. I would believe it extraordinarily rare for God to intervene to favor a sports team, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be grateful when our team wins. Or humbly accept it when our team loses.
I don’t think anyone is praying for God to come down and smite the Dominion voting machines, or the Biden voters. (That statement is, unfortunately, a lie, but I’m talking about non-bonkers people.) It’s entirely possible that what we’re calling the results of the election could come down to a series of decisions that officials make. It’s reasonable to pray for their hearts to be motivated by justice. I think this is the factor that complicates things beyond the football game: that voters, officials, and countries in general can choose things that are more moral or less moral. There can be proverbial skulls on our helmets.
The real kicker to all of this is that God’s plan included him being tortured to death. We probably have a really limited understanding of what winning and losing really mean. No online comment is going to do the subject justice.Report
I appreciate the response. The only comment I would add is that most people actually believe they are acting morally. That includes Biden voters as well as Trump voters.
No one really goes out with skulls in their helmets.Report
Agreed. I figure that 80% of people think they’re completely in the right, 15% think their ends justify their means, and maybe 5% have actually convinced themselves that there’s no right or wrong.Report
W might have appealed the Christians with his words, but it took Trump to use blackmail on them.Report
The most authentically religious sentiment in the history of American politics comes from Lincoln’s Second Inaugural.
It wouldn’t even occur to the Trump bootlickers that they might have earned some pretty stiff divine pinishment themselves.Report
Having a personal God is a deeply weird concept to me as a Jewish person.Report
Really? As a non-Jew, I was always intrigued by how often G_d would speak face-to-face with with mere humans, and doesn’t become the remote deity more familiar to Christians until, probably, he fell silent after Job. But one thing I have learned is not to explain someone else’s religion to him or her.Report
Judaism always say God in a much more abstract manner than Christinaity. Besides being entirely incorporal and pure spirit, the idea was basically you can’t describe God by what he/it is but only by what he/is not. This was taken furthest by Manimonides when he wondered why something that doesn’t eat, drink, or smell would ask for sacrfices in the Torah. Maimonides decided that this was because God say monotheism as a big leap enough from polytheism and decided to keep sacrifices because it was what we were used to. The real radical implication of this is that God doesn’t even really hear human prayers because as an incorporal entity God doesn’t hear in the same way we do.
Judaism is also a very communal religion, so it is more about the communities relationship with God rather than your individual relationship. Even if you don’t have a real abstract opinion of what God is like, the group is what it is about.Report
LeeEsq got to the reasons and I am really just another culturally/philosophically/ethnically Jewish Atheist at this point but the idea of a God that actively participates in the affairs of this world was always just perplexing to me.Report
Its interesting culturally how this has evolved, to the ancients a god that does not personally intervene is a completely useless god not worth bothering with, regardless of whether they exist or not.Report
Its interesting culturally how this has evolved, to the ancients a god that does not personally intervene is a completely useless god not worth bothering with, regardless of whether they exist or not.
Tis is a consequence of the “death” of the God of the Gaps. Ancients prayed not to be smitten by lightning until the lightning rod was invented. They prayed to survive smallpox until vaccines were invented. They prayed for mothers to survive childbirth and puerperal fever until microbes and asepsis were discovered. Then God was no longer needed for those purposes.Report
Sam Harris said that he and Hitchens always found Rabbis, and these were bearded kosher keeping Rabbis, the hardest religious figures to debate because many of them didn’t believe in things like the efficiacy of prayer, etc.Report
“It couldn’t hurt.”Report
As a general philosophical observation, I think most major religions have not addressed the discoveries of the last few centuries.
From the discovery that billions of people in far off lands do not know about your religion, and yet God does not seem to punish them, to the discovery that the Earth is 4 billion years old, and God apparently ignored all but the last 100,000 years (why did He create dinosaurs? Just so we would have gasoline for our SUVs?), to the discovery that there are billions of galaxies and trillions of starts and planets, and yet God is supposed to care only about this rock because we are special.
I don’t see any religion or theologian really trying to align their teachings to what we now know, as opposed to what Paul or Mohammed might have known then. There is a dissonance between what everybody knows it’s true about the world and the universe, and the framework of the major {Abrahamic} religions. Religion is not even showing in the field, so the Universe seems to be winning by forfeitReport
The only one of those facts that would present a difficulty is if there are other species of sentient life, in terms of the question of whether they have souls. But the age of Earth, et cetera, aren’t challenges. “Why did He create dinosaurs?” I don’t even know why he created kangaroos, and they’re still around, but their existence isn’t an obstacle to belief.Report
Eh, create a moral rule out of whole cloth and then demand to know why God doesn’t follow the rule.
Why aren’t animals vegan?
Why isn’t reproductive sex between animals more consensual and more pleasant?
Why are there Parasitoid wasps?
(Okay, that last one is a good question.)Report
Whether any of J_A’s questions “present a difficulty” to religious belief depends on the religious beliefs in question. No “reasonable” religion is threatened by most of what science tells us about the world, but many religions aren’t “reasonable.” Their adherents believe as a matter of faith, for example, that the age of the Earth is somewhere in the four digits and all existing species of animal life were specially created just as they are. It isn’t hard to come up with a religion that does not do violence to basic facts about the universe, but would we have developed such religions at all if we had known more about the world? Beats me.Report
I should have been clearer; I was speaking personally, from my understanding of my Catholic faith. You’ll find only a trivial number of Catholics who would have a problem reconciling a very old Earth with their religious beliefs. Maybe there’s an easy way to reconcile advanced aliens with my religious beliefs, but it feels to me like I’d have to really sit down and work it out.
The Catholic Church has never had a problem reconciling with science. We basically funded it and created the philosophical environment for it. Galileo was by all accounts an obnoxious guy who alienated key Italian figures, and that didn’t end well for him, but otherwise we’ve always been on the cutting edge of scientific inquiry. I mean, not only do we have no problem with evolutionary theory, it wouldn’t have any mathematical basis if it weren’t for Father Mendel.Report
I don’t think Aliens present an a priori problem. That is, for all we know, the aliens confirm the fall/redemption narrative that is particular to earth/humanity.
Perhaps they also interact with God and we’re delving deeper into theological narratives with different types of theological histories. In fact, my default assumption would be that these advanced aliens believe ‘something’ and it’s ahistorical/idiosyncratic to assume they believe nothing. More likely “we’re doing it wrong” than some sort of Kantian disembodied rational animal.
CS Lewis explored what salvation history might look like outside the bounds of planet earth. And Tolkien in his unpublished works (some of his best writing) dives quite deeply into the way in which different sentient beings might interact with God… specifically the Ainur, Elves and Men. It’s truly great stuff, if one is inclined to contemplate such things.
There’s a fascinating dialog between an Elf and an old woman loremaster (of the house of Haleth) in which he attempts to understand mortality and whence it came… she relates a tale reminiscent of a fall and some sort of sundering of the understanding of death and life. I used to be able to google to refresh my memory of which book/chapter… but it seems google is besotted with Tolkien searches owing to some Jackson fellow.Report
I agree. It’s not un-doable. I just haven’t worked it out, and barring any sudden need to do so, I’ll leave the speculation up to others. I’m a sci-fi fan, but this doesn’t jump out at me.Report
Here is my more serious answer, Evangelicals have largely lost the culture wars and they cannot stand this. They spent much of my childhood and young adulthood building an alternative culture. While this saved them from the “evils” of secular culture, it also loosened their ability to influence or monitor said culture. Not that they had much hope to begin except as a finger in the dam.
There are still lots of white evangelicals but a lot of their children are leaving and not coming back. They lost on LBGT rights and many other things. They are acutely aware that most people do not want to live life according to their views and rules. So they need a political starship to smash in as many victories as possible before it is too late.Report
Remember what I said about trying to use politics to drive culture?Report
Evangelicals NEED to be a minority culture to be “special” and victimised. It’s the whole “if everyone is super no one is” thing.
Their leaders also NEED the culture war. They’re less generals-in-a-war and more arms-dealers. “No war” means “no work for them”.
Having lost on LBGT rights, they’ll move the goal posts. God will tell them something-else-needs-to-be-stopped and give them a reason to be in charge. That’s the same thing that would have happened if (like in Poland with the Church vs Communism) they’d won.Report
Meanwhile, on the internet, some young people have discovered the problem of Theodicy:
It really makes you think.Report
I’ve always thought of it this way.
God (assuming they exist) is a programmer, and the Universe is their code base.
Granting a miracle or other divine intervention is either a change request to the code, or a change to the operating conditions. Small changes to either are easy, and clearly have small impacts, and can be implemented with little trouble. Big changes require running copies in sandboxes, and extensive code review, etc.
So it’s not that they are powerless, it’s just that big changes take time so as to avoid introducing bugs and causing the universe to crash. And since we have no idea what is a big change versus a small change, we have no idea what feature requests are going to get approved or, even if they are all approved, if it will be approved and implemented in a timely fashion (timely for us, God, obviously, has multiple timescales to work from). How many change requests ultimately result in a disposition of “no longer relevant”, because the issue took care of itself?Report
Well, in answer to both you and Pinky, this is where “Omniscient” and “Omnipotent” come into play.
Is God smart enough to write an operating system that can handle code changes in production?
Is He smart enough to write that code?
And so on.
(Personally I find that the fun thing to do is meditate on the Ontological Proof for a while and watch how it warps my brain for a second. Wait. What is Anselm doing? Wait, is he *RIGHT*??? And then spring back.)Report
In the 3rd century BC, the philosopher Epicurus asked: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
If we’re going with the “Big Picture” guy who never steps in and built the system so he can’t, then we’re in “neither able nor willing” territory.Report
I think the word ‘proof’ actually diminishes the ‘power’ of the logic.
In a different age it would have been more accurately described as: The Ontological Subversion of Disbelief. Proof enables Disbelief to take purchase and snap things back; but continual contemplation of the ontological question is unending.Report
The Ontological Proof is an underrated work. I can think of three reasons why the Proof could be invalid, but I’m just not sure.Report
I don’t think God is evil or powerless. He is just remote – A big picture guy.
The Lion King’s dad had it right. A lion eating a baby gazelle is not evil, just as a man eating a baby rooster is not evil. Meteorites wiping out millions of dinosaurs is not evil. The Patriots winning this coming Thursday or Biden becoming president is not evil. And inserting tab A in the wrong slot is also not evil, in case someone wondered.
It’s just how the big scheme was designed to work.
And it is an awesome big design. But you have to consider it as a whole. To focus on the gazelle, the chicken, the dinosaur, the Rams team, Trump’s supporters, or the tab is just smallmindness, and a bit narcissistic. You are just a bit in a larger scheme. It’s not about you. It is most definitely not about you.
Many (most?) people expect the last 14 billion years since the Universe’s creation to just be a prologue to their own personal existence. Indeed dinosaurs only telos was to provide gasoline to their SUVs. And, if and when they stop being around, they expect, in the words of Arthur C Clarke that “Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.(*)” because, what’s their use now that he’s not there to watch them.
(*) Arthur C. Clark, the Nine Billion names of God (1953) – In case you haven’t read it, here it is https://urbigenous.net/library/nine_billion_names_of_god.html
It’s one of the best uses of five minutes in your whole existence. You are welcomeReport
The question of Theodicy is a fun one.
Generally, the serious answers all argue that one of the members of the inconsistent triad isn’t true.
Harold Kushner, in “When Bad Things Happen To Good People” concluded that God was not omnipotent.
My senior thesis was to examine scripture and came to the conclusion that God was not omnibenevolent (I forget which verses I leaned on but they’re in there).
An exceptionally unsatisfactory answer is “Well, Evil doesn’t exist. You just don’t have perspective.”
That last one has *SOME* explanatory power. I went to a friends’ father’s funeral a couple of decades ago and his father had reached a good age, and had many kids and a couple of grandkids and he died. Hey. He won the game, right? Anyway, the Episcopalian Priest up front ended one of the prayers with “a horizon is nothing more than the limit of our sight, please lift us up higher, so we may see farther”.
And you know what? That’s a wonderful sentiment. Lovely.
But there are still parasitic wasps.Report
What I want is predictive power.
The line of thought that got me where I am is “when should I pray? I.e. when does it help?”
Ask someone that and you might get “you should pray all the time”
The answer to that is “So if I’m driving and a child steps into the road in front of me, I should take my hands off the wheel and pray? If your airplane is going down, you want the pilot to pray?”
Typically they don’t mean that. Which brings us back to “when should I pray in a min/max sort of way?”
The answer seems to be closer to “never” than “always”, with that especially being true if you want something measurable, i.e. health, money, luck, etc.Report
People in hell want ice water.Report
Torturing people for thought crimes goes against the “benevolent” idea.
Ignoring(!) that, what do I have to do to stay out of Hell? Wiki says there are 600+ versions of the “one true god” (ignoring all the other religions).
They disagree on basic ethical issues like gay rights, women’s rights, inequality, number of wives allowed, etc. I wouldn’t be shocked if Slavery should be on that list.Report
Well, the Supreme Court has not yet figured out whether you can sue corporations for Slavery.
WAIT WRONG POST
Anyway, if you want to stay out of Hell, the best ways to do that are through Hell not existing, Hell acting purgatorially, and Hell being a state of mind (that you can then figure out).
Which of those sounds most appealing?Report
Stay the hell away from other people.Report
Whichever one is true?Report
It depends what you mean by prayer. “Pray always” means to have a state of mind/soul in union with God. You don’t need to put your hands together for that. We are physical and easily-distracted, so formal prayer has its value as well.
If your question is the equivalent of “how much time do I have to spend with my wife to get the most sex”, the answer is you should love her enough to want to spend time with her, whatever the tangible benefit.
Predictive power doesn’t work in I – Thou relationships. It’s for I – it relationships. In religion, that’s called superstition. If I deposit 5 rosaries, I get extra green lights on my way to work. Not a great plan.Report
Or to put it another way, the purpose of prayer isn’t to bend God to our will, but ours to His.Report
Yup.Report
It’s funny that Oscar and I both have computer analogies.
To me, the whole question comes down to, why did God make this a co-op game? PVM’s are cleaner. You don’t have to worry about anyone causing problems for other players. But what if the whole point of the game is to teach us cooperation, with each other and with God? That’d mean we’re keeping score wrong.Report
How do you know it’s a co-op game and the rest of us aren’t all NPCs?Report