What Does God Need With a Political Starship?

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

Related Post Roulette

72 Responses

  1. Oscar Gordon says:

    God answers every prayer. Usually the answer is no.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      “O Lord, please send an agent of change to bring about justice!”

      “Dude. I created you. Stop stalling and get to work.”Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      Bible says black letter God grants all prayers.

      John 15:7 : If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

      Mark 11:24 : Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

      Matthew 21:22 : And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.

      John 14:14 : If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

      Those examples are just the tip of the iceberg. https://www.openbible.info/topics/god_answering_prayersReport

      • CJColucci in reply to Dark Matter says:

        That’s what it says. But is it true?Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Dark Matter says:

        The bible also says we shall not wear fabric blends or engage in selective breeding.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          No it doesn’t. The Bible has a lot of rules for Jewish ritual, but no one else is obligated to follow them.Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Pinky says:

            Well, we now think that. It was a live and contentious issue during the lifetime of the original disciples and Paul.Report

            • Pinky in reply to CJColucci says:

              …at which point it was resolved. Now, as a Catholic, I have no problem with the idea of the Church being guided to greater understanding of the Bible, as Jesus promised. But the whole ritual question was pretty well settled in the first forty years of the Church, while the NT was being written, and it was emphatically closed by 70 AD.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

            OK, fine, let’s try a different tack (reminder, I am very agnostic and my knowledge of scripture is damn little).

            God has a plan. God has spent a lot of time on said plan. God is not inclined to alter the plan just because some whiny humans offer prayers asking for things that would alter the plan.

            Joe Biden as POTUS is part of the plan.

            Ergo, sometimes God says ‘No’, because saying ‘Yes’ messes with the plan.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              Could it be that God’s plan includes us praying for things?Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                Here’s the thing about praying for something that is not limited in scope to the individual, you get conflicting requests.

                If a good Christian sincerely prays for Trump to win, and another good Christian sincerely prays for Trump to lose, whose prayer is answered? Does God tally up the prayers like votes, does your prayer count more if you are a good Christian (like illegal votes? OMG! GOD STOLE THE ELECTION!)?

                Seems to me that most of the time, God does say “No”. At least when it comes to prayers that involve community. I mean, we don’t have world peace yet, and lots of folks been praying for that one for a long damn time.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                When I say God’s plan includes us praying, I’m not saying that we overwhelm him with votes or anything. If God truly views all of eternity at once, it’d be no problem for him to include situations where intercessory prayer is answered. I have no problem with the idea of God saying “no”, however.

                The Church records a history of miracles. Some of them may be battles won, but most of them are gifts granted in the sight of small groups, often at the request of a saint. The unbeliever can easily write such things off as imagination or deception, but the small miracle seems more consistent with the whole free-will plus omnipotence thing.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                See, that aligns with my understanding.

                Small, subtly miracles buoy faith. Large, obvious miracles can destroy it. And faith is at the heart of it all, IIRC.

                And I agree, God should absolutely be able to say ‘No’. And do so without explanation, for their ways are mysterious, after all.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                “All these crutches, and not a single wooden leg.”Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to Pinky says:

                From Huckleberry Finn:

                I was trying to make my mouth SAY I would do the right thing and the clean thing, and go and write to that n*****’s owner and tell where he was; but deep down in me I knowed it was a lie, and He knowed it. You can’t pray a lie – I found that out.

                I think that’s a power of prayer; that if you humble yourself before God and try your hardest to pray sincerely, you know what is a legitimate prayer (e.g. a loved one’s health) and what is not (e.g. the Jets covering the spread). In other words, the point of prayer isn’t to change the future. The point of prayer is to pray.Report

          • Mike Schilling in reply to Pinky says:

            Except the ones about sex, of course.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Dark Matter says:

        Sounds easy if you abide in God and his words abide in you. But what does that mean? To be fully conformed to God. Look at the context of the first passage you cited:

        “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.”

        That’s not about getting stuff, it’s about praying to bear fruit. Likewise, look at the context of the next one:

        “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered. “Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

        Why add the part about forgiveness? Because if you really have faith in God, you’re going to live according to his will. So sure, tossing around mountains sounds fun, but if you truly believe in God and conform to his will you have more important things to do. So I don’t think those quotes and the other ones on that link are so unconditional.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Dark Matter says:

        “Bible says black letter God grants all prayers.”

        This is the part where we tell the joke about the truck, the boat, and the helicopter…Report

  2. Pinky says:

    First of all, I don’t see anything odd about praying for the results of an election. It’s both scriptural and instinctive to offer intercessory prayer. It’d be strange if one believed in an all-powerful God, loved one’s country, and didn’t think to offer up a prayer for it. If one believed that a candidate was being unjustly denied the presidency, it’d be expected to ask God to change the outcome. I don’t think anyone believes that the election results could hurt God. (Trump bumps words against each other like a carnival game. There’s no theological underpinning to it.)

    In addition to praying over the last election, people are using this opportunity to use religion to really voters for the next election. As this article notes, there’s a risk in presuming to know God’s will, but the action is perfectly reasonable in a democracy. We vote on the basis of our assessment of the world and of the candidates, and for most people, religious belief is part of their framework for understanding the world.Report

    • J_A in reply to Pinky says:

      First of all, I don’t see anything odd about praying for the results of an election. It’s both scriptural and instinctive to offer intercessory prayer. It’d be strange if one believed in an all-powerful God, loved one’s country, and didn’t think to offer up a prayer for it. If one believed that a candidate was being unjustly denied the presidency, it’d be expected to ask God to change the outcome.

      Please don’t take what follows as snark, but as an honest question, using a extreme hypothetical

      I am told that there’s n oncoming Patriot-Rams game in a few days. I’ve heard the Patriots are a good team (I don’t follow the NFL), and apparently the rams are also an OK team. I am sure plenty of people will pray for victory in that game

      So how does God decide who wins? Does He take a tally of the prayers He hears, and gives the win to the one team that got more intercessory prayers? So, Cam Newton or Jared Goff don’t really have anything to do with the result?

      If my prayers can’t help my team win (God, please bless the Barça!!) then they probably can’t make Trump win the 2020 election. Games and elections are won and lost by people’s actions, and to say that, if only one more person prays for a Rams win, then the Patriots will know bitter defeat takes away all agency from our lives.

      After all, if God will give the win to the team with more prayers, He can make more people pray for His (God’s) preferred team. It’s turtles all the way down

      God does not need a spaceship. But, more importantly, He doesn’t want a spaceship.

      And one last thought, if you pray for a win, and God rewards the other team, are you sure you are in God’s team? have you thought, you might be in the baddies’ team?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRUReport

      • Pinky in reply to J_A says:

        Satan decides Patriots games.

        You deserve a better answer than that, and I’ll get to one, but I couldn’t pass up that line.Report

      • Fish in reply to J_A says:

        “God, I asked you to let the Broncos beat the Chiefs on Sunday night, but they still lost lost. Why have you forsaken me?”

        “Look, buddy, your defense held the most potent offense in the NFL to four field goals through most of the third quarter, and even blinded everyone in the stadium to the fact that Tyreek Hill actually CAUGHT that ball in the end zone. I opened the door. All the Broncos had to do was walk through it.”Report

      • Pinky in reply to J_A says:

        OK, the big-picture answer to this, according to traditional western Christian thinking, has to do with the distinction between the natural and the supernatural. From where we sit, natural is “what almost always happens” and supernatural is “a manual override”. From the supernatural point of view, the natural is more like the conditions that God set up and maintains out of his greatness, and the supernatural is what God does extraordinarily out of his greatness. There are different ways to try to explain nature, but this one is compatible with a spiritual dimension.

        It’s human nature to root for a team, and since God knows what’s in our hearts, we really can’t help but pray for our side to have a victory. I would believe it extraordinarily rare for God to intervene to favor a sports team, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be grateful when our team wins. Or humbly accept it when our team loses.

        I don’t think anyone is praying for God to come down and smite the Dominion voting machines, or the Biden voters. (That statement is, unfortunately, a lie, but I’m talking about non-bonkers people.) It’s entirely possible that what we’re calling the results of the election could come down to a series of decisions that officials make. It’s reasonable to pray for their hearts to be motivated by justice. I think this is the factor that complicates things beyond the football game: that voters, officials, and countries in general can choose things that are more moral or less moral. There can be proverbial skulls on our helmets.

        The real kicker to all of this is that God’s plan included him being tortured to death. We probably have a really limited understanding of what winning and losing really mean. No online comment is going to do the subject justice.Report

        • J_A in reply to Pinky says:

          I appreciate the response. The only comment I would add is that most people actually believe they are acting morally. That includes Biden voters as well as Trump voters.

          No one really goes out with skulls in their helmets.Report

          • Pinky in reply to J_A says:

            Agreed. I figure that 80% of people think they’re completely in the right, 15% think their ends justify their means, and maybe 5% have actually convinced themselves that there’s no right or wrong.Report

  3. W might have appealed the Christians with his words, but it took Trump to use blackmail on them.Report

  4. The most authentically religious sentiment in the history of American politics comes from Lincoln’s Second Inaugural.

    Fondly do we hope — fervently do we pray — that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword as was said three thousand years ago so still it must be said ‘the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.’

    It wouldn’t even occur to the Trump bootlickers that they might have earned some pretty stiff divine pinishment themselves.Report

  5. Saul Degraw says:

    Having a personal God is a deeply weird concept to me as a Jewish person.Report

    • CJColucci in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Really? As a non-Jew, I was always intrigued by how often G_d would speak face-to-face with with mere humans, and doesn’t become the remote deity more familiar to Christians until, probably, he fell silent after Job. But one thing I have learned is not to explain someone else’s religion to him or her.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to CJColucci says:

        Judaism always say God in a much more abstract manner than Christinaity. Besides being entirely incorporal and pure spirit, the idea was basically you can’t describe God by what he/it is but only by what he/is not. This was taken furthest by Manimonides when he wondered why something that doesn’t eat, drink, or smell would ask for sacrfices in the Torah. Maimonides decided that this was because God say monotheism as a big leap enough from polytheism and decided to keep sacrifices because it was what we were used to. The real radical implication of this is that God doesn’t even really hear human prayers because as an incorporal entity God doesn’t hear in the same way we do.

        Judaism is also a very communal religion, so it is more about the communities relationship with God rather than your individual relationship. Even if you don’t have a real abstract opinion of what God is like, the group is what it is about.Report

      • Saul Degreaw in reply to CJColucci says:

        LeeEsq got to the reasons and I am really just another culturally/philosophically/ethnically Jewish Atheist at this point but the idea of a God that actively participates in the affairs of this world was always just perplexing to me.Report

        • Brent F in reply to Saul Degreaw says:

          Its interesting culturally how this has evolved, to the ancients a god that does not personally intervene is a completely useless god not worth bothering with, regardless of whether they exist or not.Report

          • J_A in reply to Brent F says:

            Its interesting culturally how this has evolved, to the ancients a god that does not personally intervene is a completely useless god not worth bothering with, regardless of whether they exist or not.

            Tis is a consequence of the “death” of the God of the Gaps. Ancients prayed not to be smitten by lightning until the lightning rod was invented. They prayed to survive smallpox until vaccines were invented. They prayed for mothers to survive childbirth and puerperal fever until microbes and asepsis were discovered. Then God was no longer needed for those purposes.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degreaw says:

          Sam Harris said that he and Hitchens always found Rabbis, and these were bearded kosher keeping Rabbis, the hardest religious figures to debate because many of them didn’t believe in things like the efficiacy of prayer, etc.Report

  6. J_A says:

    As a general philosophical observation, I think most major religions have not addressed the discoveries of the last few centuries.

    From the discovery that billions of people in far off lands do not know about your religion, and yet God does not seem to punish them, to the discovery that the Earth is 4 billion years old, and God apparently ignored all but the last 100,000 years (why did He create dinosaurs? Just so we would have gasoline for our SUVs?), to the discovery that there are billions of galaxies and trillions of starts and planets, and yet God is supposed to care only about this rock because we are special.

    I don’t see any religion or theologian really trying to align their teachings to what we now know, as opposed to what Paul or Mohammed might have known then. There is a dissonance between what everybody knows it’s true about the world and the universe, and the framework of the major {Abrahamic} religions. Religion is not even showing in the field, so the Universe seems to be winning by forfeitReport

    • Pinky in reply to J_A says:

      The only one of those facts that would present a difficulty is if there are other species of sentient life, in terms of the question of whether they have souls. But the age of Earth, et cetera, aren’t challenges. “Why did He create dinosaurs?” I don’t even know why he created kangaroos, and they’re still around, but their existence isn’t an obstacle to belief.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

        Eh, create a moral rule out of whole cloth and then demand to know why God doesn’t follow the rule.

        Why aren’t animals vegan?
        Why isn’t reproductive sex between animals more consensual and more pleasant?
        Why are there Parasitoid wasps?

        (Okay, that last one is a good question.)Report

      • CJColucci in reply to Pinky says:

        Whether any of J_A’s questions “present a difficulty” to religious belief depends on the religious beliefs in question. No “reasonable” religion is threatened by most of what science tells us about the world, but many religions aren’t “reasonable.” Their adherents believe as a matter of faith, for example, that the age of the Earth is somewhere in the four digits and all existing species of animal life were specially created just as they are. It isn’t hard to come up with a religion that does not do violence to basic facts about the universe, but would we have developed such religions at all if we had known more about the world? Beats me.Report

        • Pinky in reply to CJColucci says:

          I should have been clearer; I was speaking personally, from my understanding of my Catholic faith. You’ll find only a trivial number of Catholics who would have a problem reconciling a very old Earth with their religious beliefs. Maybe there’s an easy way to reconcile advanced aliens with my religious beliefs, but it feels to me like I’d have to really sit down and work it out.

          The Catholic Church has never had a problem reconciling with science. We basically funded it and created the philosophical environment for it. Galileo was by all accounts an obnoxious guy who alienated key Italian figures, and that didn’t end well for him, but otherwise we’ve always been on the cutting edge of scientific inquiry. I mean, not only do we have no problem with evolutionary theory, it wouldn’t have any mathematical basis if it weren’t for Father Mendel.Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to Pinky says:

            I don’t think Aliens present an a priori problem. That is, for all we know, the aliens confirm the fall/redemption narrative that is particular to earth/humanity.

            Perhaps they also interact with God and we’re delving deeper into theological narratives with different types of theological histories. In fact, my default assumption would be that these advanced aliens believe ‘something’ and it’s ahistorical/idiosyncratic to assume they believe nothing. More likely “we’re doing it wrong” than some sort of Kantian disembodied rational animal.

            CS Lewis explored what salvation history might look like outside the bounds of planet earth. And Tolkien in his unpublished works (some of his best writing) dives quite deeply into the way in which different sentient beings might interact with God… specifically the Ainur, Elves and Men. It’s truly great stuff, if one is inclined to contemplate such things.

            There’s a fascinating dialog between an Elf and an old woman loremaster (of the house of Haleth) in which he attempts to understand mortality and whence it came… she relates a tale reminiscent of a fall and some sort of sundering of the understanding of death and life. I used to be able to google to refresh my memory of which book/chapter… but it seems google is besotted with Tolkien searches owing to some Jackson fellow.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Marchmaine says:

              I agree. It’s not un-doable. I just haven’t worked it out, and barring any sudden need to do so, I’ll leave the speculation up to others. I’m a sci-fi fan, but this doesn’t jump out at me.Report

  7. Saul Degraw says:

    Here is my more serious answer, Evangelicals have largely lost the culture wars and they cannot stand this. They spent much of my childhood and young adulthood building an alternative culture. While this saved them from the “evils” of secular culture, it also loosened their ability to influence or monitor said culture. Not that they had much hope to begin except as a finger in the dam.

    There are still lots of white evangelicals but a lot of their children are leaving and not coming back. They lost on LBGT rights and many other things. They are acutely aware that most people do not want to live life according to their views and rules. So they need a political starship to smash in as many victories as possible before it is too late.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Remember what I said about trying to use politics to drive culture?Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Evangelicals NEED to be a minority culture to be “special” and victimised. It’s the whole “if everyone is super no one is” thing.

      Their leaders also NEED the culture war. They’re less generals-in-a-war and more arms-dealers. “No war” means “no work for them”.

      Having lost on LBGT rights, they’ll move the goal posts. God will tell them something-else-needs-to-be-stopped and give them a reason to be in charge. That’s the same thing that would have happened if (like in Poland with the Church vs Communism) they’d won.Report

  8. Jaybird says:

    Meanwhile, on the internet, some young people have discovered the problem of Theodicy:

    It really makes you think.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Jaybird says:

      I’ve always thought of it this way.

      God (assuming they exist) is a programmer, and the Universe is their code base.
      Granting a miracle or other divine intervention is either a change request to the code, or a change to the operating conditions. Small changes to either are easy, and clearly have small impacts, and can be implemented with little trouble. Big changes require running copies in sandboxes, and extensive code review, etc.

      So it’s not that they are powerless, it’s just that big changes take time so as to avoid introducing bugs and causing the universe to crash. And since we have no idea what is a big change versus a small change, we have no idea what feature requests are going to get approved or, even if they are all approved, if it will be approved and implemented in a timely fashion (timely for us, God, obviously, has multiple timescales to work from). How many change requests ultimately result in a disposition of “no longer relevant”, because the issue took care of itself?Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        Well, in answer to both you and Pinky, this is where “Omniscient” and “Omnipotent” come into play.

        Is God smart enough to write an operating system that can handle code changes in production?

        Is He smart enough to write that code?

        And so on.

        (Personally I find that the fun thing to do is meditate on the Ontological Proof for a while and watch how it warps my brain for a second. Wait. What is Anselm doing? Wait, is he *RIGHT*??? And then spring back.)Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

          In the 3rd century BC, the philosopher Epicurus asked: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

          If we’re going with the “Big Picture” guy who never steps in and built the system so he can’t, then we’re in “neither able nor willing” territory.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

          I think the word ‘proof’ actually diminishes the ‘power’ of the logic.

          In a different age it would have been more accurately described as: The Ontological Subversion of Disbelief. Proof enables Disbelief to take purchase and snap things back; but continual contemplation of the ontological question is unending.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

          The Ontological Proof is an underrated work. I can think of three reasons why the Proof could be invalid, but I’m just not sure.Report

    • J_A in reply to Jaybird says:

      I don’t think God is evil or powerless. He is just remote – A big picture guy.

      The Lion King’s dad had it right. A lion eating a baby gazelle is not evil, just as a man eating a baby rooster is not evil. Meteorites wiping out millions of dinosaurs is not evil. The Patriots winning this coming Thursday or Biden becoming president is not evil. And inserting tab A in the wrong slot is also not evil, in case someone wondered.

      It’s just how the big scheme was designed to work.

      And it is an awesome big design. But you have to consider it as a whole. To focus on the gazelle, the chicken, the dinosaur, the Rams team, Trump’s supporters, or the tab is just smallmindness, and a bit narcissistic. You are just a bit in a larger scheme. It’s not about you. It is most definitely not about you.

      Many (most?) people expect the last 14 billion years since the Universe’s creation to just be a prologue to their own personal existence. Indeed dinosaurs only telos was to provide gasoline to their SUVs. And, if and when they stop being around, they expect, in the words of Arthur C Clarke that “Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.(*)” because, what’s their use now that he’s not there to watch them.

      (*) Arthur C. Clark, the Nine Billion names of God (1953) – In case you haven’t read it, here it is https://urbigenous.net/library/nine_billion_names_of_god.html

      It’s one of the best uses of five minutes in your whole existence. You are welcomeReport

      • Jaybird in reply to J_A says:

        The question of Theodicy is a fun one.

        Generally, the serious answers all argue that one of the members of the inconsistent triad isn’t true.

        Harold Kushner, in “When Bad Things Happen To Good People” concluded that God was not omnipotent.

        My senior thesis was to examine scripture and came to the conclusion that God was not omnibenevolent (I forget which verses I leaned on but they’re in there).

        An exceptionally unsatisfactory answer is “Well, Evil doesn’t exist. You just don’t have perspective.”

        That last one has *SOME* explanatory power. I went to a friends’ father’s funeral a couple of decades ago and his father had reached a good age, and had many kids and a couple of grandkids and he died. Hey. He won the game, right? Anyway, the Episcopalian Priest up front ended one of the prayers with “a horizon is nothing more than the limit of our sight, please lift us up higher, so we may see farther”.

        And you know what? That’s a wonderful sentiment. Lovely.

        But there are still parasitic wasps.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

          That last one has *SOME* explanatory power.

          What I want is predictive power.

          The line of thought that got me where I am is “when should I pray? I.e. when does it help?”

          Ask someone that and you might get “you should pray all the time”

          The answer to that is “So if I’m driving and a child steps into the road in front of me, I should take my hands off the wheel and pray? If your airplane is going down, you want the pilot to pray?”

          Typically they don’t mean that. Which brings us back to “when should I pray in a min/max sort of way?”

          The answer seems to be closer to “never” than “always”, with that especially being true if you want something measurable, i.e. health, money, luck, etc.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Dark Matter says:

            People in hell want ice water.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

              Torturing people for thought crimes goes against the “benevolent” idea.

              Ignoring(!) that, what do I have to do to stay out of Hell? Wiki says there are 600+ versions of the “one true god” (ignoring all the other religions).

              They disagree on basic ethical issues like gay rights, women’s rights, inequality, number of wives allowed, etc. I wouldn’t be shocked if Slavery should be on that list.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Dark Matter says:

            It depends what you mean by prayer. “Pray always” means to have a state of mind/soul in union with God. You don’t need to put your hands together for that. We are physical and easily-distracted, so formal prayer has its value as well.

            If your question is the equivalent of “how much time do I have to spend with my wife to get the most sex”, the answer is you should love her enough to want to spend time with her, whatever the tangible benefit.

            Predictive power doesn’t work in I – Thou relationships. It’s for I – it relationships. In religion, that’s called superstition. If I deposit 5 rosaries, I get extra green lights on my way to work. Not a great plan.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

      It’s funny that Oscar and I both have computer analogies.

      To me, the whole question comes down to, why did God make this a co-op game? PVM’s are cleaner. You don’t have to worry about anyone causing problems for other players. But what if the whole point of the game is to teach us cooperation, with each other and with God? That’d mean we’re keeping score wrong.Report