Slade: We’re going to need a cite for this: “multiple states funding what are basically IslamicNa.zi arguments”.
If you mean "the funding" then most of the media in the Arab countries is state controlled. Their various positions in the UN are also state controlled. Al Jazeera has an English feed, try listening to them for a while.
If you mean the arguments themselves, then the idea that the Jews control everything is na.zi antisemitism, as is the idea that they are especially evil and should be held to different standards because they're evil.
If the arguments only make sense when used against Jews and make no sense at all when applied to non-Jews, then that's a problem.
Slade: Colonialism refers to steady encroachment on Palestinian land.
No. That's a good example of the Palestinians saying something and the West spinning it into they'd be cool with two states.
The PLO's charter, written years before the 67 war, had article 22 which spells out all of Israel is a colonial project, and multiple articles which make it clear they mean every inch.
When I listen to Arabic media, they don't make a big deal out of "steady encroachment" because every inch of the land is disputed.
When I listen to podcasts that talks to random Arabs on street, the issue never comes up. Again because every inch of the land is disputed.
When the Palestinian's talk about Israel the colony they mean all of Israel. As insane as it sounds, they're still fighting over whether or not the Jews get a state.
Slade: No right thinking individual believes that country is going to disappear.
The Palestinians do.
That's what they say when the person on the street is asked. That's what is in the original charters of both the PLO and Hamas. That's why these various peace plans keep falling apart.
They believe they can make the Jews flee to Europe or something and they make their policies on that. That's why we keep hearing about "colonialism".
That's also why giving up the Right to Return is such a non-starter, or even redefining it so it's a right to return to a Palestinian state along side a Jewish one.
If we listen to what the Palestinians actually say then they're pretty consistent. Even the rare support for "two states" requires the follow up question "can one of the states be Jewish".
This means there can't be peace and it opens the door for fringe groups in Israel to behave badly because they can't make the situation any worse.
Slade: By my reading of this, only the most pure of heart may render criticism of Israel.
No. I'm just saying we should be consistent.
There is a ton of media coverage on and even multiple states funding what are basically IslamicNazi arguments.
Their talking points get repeated and integrated into people without them understanding these arguments are judging Jews differently because they're Jews.
The idea that Jews shouldn't have a state but all other ethnotypes get a pass comes down to "because they're Jews" reasoning.
Ditto the idea that Jews shouldn't be able to respond to terrorism, ditto the idea that they shouldn't be able to have an urban war.
Apply these situations to other countries and it looks insane.
Slade: we’re not allowed to differentiate between criticism of Israel and anti-semitism.
A lot of the criticism of Israel involves reasoning we never use against non-Jews.
Urban warfare is "genocide" if Jews do it, but not if anyone else does. Israel shouldn't be an ethnostate because ethnostates are bad, however all non-Jewish ethnostates get a pass. Israel should put up with terrorism that non-Jews would never tolerate. Israel is expected to deal with a generational Right to Return.
I'd say the big issue that we'd apply in normal situations is it's lack of defined borders. It should just announce what land it considers it's own and be done with it.
Chris: I still see no evidence that Khalil supported 10/7,
True. It's "guilt by association" at the moment. However the margin of error is large and the idea of him supporting terrorism looks a lot more reasonable than it did at the start of this thread.
Chris: Would supporting armed resistance in Palestine generally be grounds for deportation?
Faict, the "armed resistance" groups in Palestine are resisting the idea of Jews and a Jewish state in the Middle East. That's why they target civilians, it's why their charters read the way they do, and so on.
So the answer to your question is going to be "yes". Normal rules apply. Supporting terrorism is grounds for deportation.
I do not see any evidence that most, or even more than a few, of the protestors supported 10/7.
Shrug. Enough did to make it into wiki, whatever that's worth. The better question is whether he personally said or did something along that line or whether the group he was leading did so.
We don't have specific information. However we've managed to draw a potential line from him to legal deportation. Whether the gov can do that in court is a different question.
Protesting(*) is legal but supporting terrorism is not. Israel was at war with an openly genocidal terror organization. Opposing the war without supporting the terror organization requires clear thinking on an emotional topic.
(*) There are a good number of things that "protesters" can do in the name of protesting which also crosses lines. They don't have the right to shut down education or harass random people even if they are Jewish and so on.
If the number of deaths is less than the number of births then is very hard to claim that Israel is killing everyone it can.
Given the Palestinian refusal to admit how many of the dead are militants, we're stuck with various estimates which suggest the Israeli Army's civilian kill ratio was pretty normal (or even good) for urban combat.
RE: the protests, where in the Wikipedia page does it say they supported 10/7
In fall 2024, activist groups including CUAD had begun to use rhetoric in support of Hamas and the October 7 attacks.
I voted for Harris. However Harris ran as an empty suit. My strong impression was she was sincere about being pro-choice and her identity policies and insincere about all of her other positions.
Big picture, the fiscal sanity wing of the GOP is in the process of being removed from the coalition and will become swing voters.
LeeEsq: ...the Pro-Palestinian side decided to latch onto the broad definition of genocide in the Geneva Convention because they needed to district from Hamas and 10/7.
IMHO it's "accuse the other side of doing what you're doing so no one can tell the difference."
On 10-7 the Palestinians (including but not limited to Hamas) killed every Jew they could get their hands on, which is "genocide". That's really ugly and showcases what the Right of Return would look like.
If Israel is also committing genocide, then everyone is committing genocide so no one is.
I would like to see Team Blue running on economic growth and good government. "Economic growth" would include "free trade".
Trump is creating massive disruptions in business. Maybe someone can make ads where the auto industry explains why his tariffs destroy auto jobs and they built their businesses around the trade agreements Trump himself forced through last time.
Wiki says at times the Columbia protests were supporting 10/7. I have no idea what he personally said or did, however he was their leader so there's that.
Chris: or just in opposition to the then ongoing genocide
It is probably not useful to lower the definition for "genocide" to the point where it applies to all wars.
This guy is a leader of the Columbian protests, which has repeatedly resulted in the police arresting them. I'm not a lawyer and I haven't been following those protests in detail, but I am wondering which lines have been crossed.
Because we've been fed a constant stream of "wolf" accusations for decades. There's nothing you can say about Trump that you haven't said about all other GOP presidents during my lifetime.
The republic is always going to end if Team Blue doesn't get it's way.
Very true. That's a professional challenge for her to overcome. She failed.
If she had nothing positive to say about the original then she should have said nothing about it and focused on how she "enjoyed" working on the update and hopes everyone will enjoy it. Alternatively she could have called it "time tested" or something else vague.
Her job is to reach out to the fans of original and try to convince them to see the movie. Describing the previous male lead as a "stalker" seems unlikely to do that.
Questions about whether or not she was up to the part could have been trivially fixed by releasing a clip of her singing one of the songs or just a picture of her in costume (btw she looks and sounds great).
The fans of Vampire Lestat thought Tom Cruise was a terrible choice up until the studio released a clip of him in character. Try picturing what the fans would have thought about Tom describing Lestat as a gay serial killer.
1) Can an otherwise uninvolved student still function?
If the protesters are shutting down the U then they're preventing other people from getting educations.
That very much would include setting up lines and insisting that anyone attempting to cross them "denounce Israel". Whether that's a protected class or not is irrelevant.
2) Violence and the threat of violence.
The normally illegal things are still illegal. That would include calling for genocide... which I would think includes calls to destroy Israel.
It's a lot easier to claim racism than try to defend what's happened on that movie.
Zegler's behavior was seriously unprofessional. Her job is to generate good PR for the project, not be "a waking PR disaster for Disney". Describing Prince Charming as "a guy who literally stalks [Snow White]", going on to deem the story "weird".
I hope all of this drama has been mishandled marketing and they end with a product my daughter and I would enjoy seeing. However Disney cancelling the premiere suggests they know they have a turkey on their hands on top of what Zegler has done to advertise it.
Chris: ...the only reason for being upset about this casting decision is racism.
Most remakes of popular movies don't have their lead actress give interviews on how bad the original was. That's just unprofessional. I think the same interview also had her talk about how they've redone the plot so it's now about girl power and how Snow doesn't really need Charming.
To answer Chris' question, the University is under pressure from the student activists to treat that sort of thing and the shutting down of various educational buildings as a normal student protest and largely does.
Various other groups (including Trump) see it as deeply antisemitic and/or criminal and think the University should be using criminal charges and the law to deal with it.
Chris: What are some examples of this discrimination?
Criticism increased when a January 2024 recording of one organizer, Khymani James, saying "Zionists don't deserve to live" was released
...Another protester was recorded holding a sign reading "Al-Qassam's next targets" in front of student counter-protesters holding Israeli flags.
...protesters both on and off campus were recorded targeting Jewish students with antisemitic vitriol...
...protesters at the encampment were filmed chanting "Zionists not allowed here", while another protester called for "10,000 October 7ths". One Jewish student reported protesters saying "kill all the Jews" and "we want one Arab state",
On “Open Mic for the week of 3/10/25”
Suggesting we cut off aid 22 years from now is a way to not talk about it for 20 years.
"
Slade: We’re going to need a cite for this: “multiple states funding what are basically IslamicNa.zi arguments”.
If you mean "the funding" then most of the media in the Arab countries is state controlled. Their various positions in the UN are also state controlled. Al Jazeera has an English feed, try listening to them for a while.
If you mean the arguments themselves, then the idea that the Jews control everything is na.zi antisemitism, as is the idea that they are especially evil and should be held to different standards because they're evil.
If the arguments only make sense when used against Jews and make no sense at all when applied to non-Jews, then that's a problem.
"
Slade: Colonialism refers to steady encroachment on Palestinian land.
No. That's a good example of the Palestinians saying something and the West spinning it into they'd be cool with two states.
The PLO's charter, written years before the 67 war, had article 22 which spells out all of Israel is a colonial project, and multiple articles which make it clear they mean every inch.
When I listen to Arabic media, they don't make a big deal out of "steady encroachment" because every inch of the land is disputed.
When I listen to podcasts that talks to random Arabs on street, the issue never comes up. Again because every inch of the land is disputed.
When the Palestinian's talk about Israel the colony they mean all of Israel. As insane as it sounds, they're still fighting over whether or not the Jews get a state.
"
Slade: No right thinking individual believes that country is going to disappear.
The Palestinians do.
That's what they say when the person on the street is asked. That's what is in the original charters of both the PLO and Hamas. That's why these various peace plans keep falling apart.
They believe they can make the Jews flee to Europe or something and they make their policies on that. That's why we keep hearing about "colonialism".
That's also why giving up the Right to Return is such a non-starter, or even redefining it so it's a right to return to a Palestinian state along side a Jewish one.
If we listen to what the Palestinians actually say then they're pretty consistent. Even the rare support for "two states" requires the follow up question "can one of the states be Jewish".
This means there can't be peace and it opens the door for fringe groups in Israel to behave badly because they can't make the situation any worse.
"
Slade: By my reading of this, only the most pure of heart may render criticism of Israel.
No. I'm just saying we should be consistent.
There is a ton of media coverage on and even multiple states funding what are basically IslamicNazi arguments.
Their talking points get repeated and integrated into people without them understanding these arguments are judging Jews differently because they're Jews.
The idea that Jews shouldn't have a state but all other ethnotypes get a pass comes down to "because they're Jews" reasoning.
Ditto the idea that Jews shouldn't be able to respond to terrorism, ditto the idea that they shouldn't be able to have an urban war.
Apply these situations to other countries and it looks insane.
"
Slade: we’re not allowed to differentiate between criticism of Israel and anti-semitism.
A lot of the criticism of Israel involves reasoning we never use against non-Jews.
Urban warfare is "genocide" if Jews do it, but not if anyone else does. Israel shouldn't be an ethnostate because ethnostates are bad, however all non-Jewish ethnostates get a pass. Israel should put up with terrorism that non-Jews would never tolerate. Israel is expected to deal with a generational Right to Return.
I'd say the big issue that we'd apply in normal situations is it's lack of defined borders. It should just announce what land it considers it's own and be done with it.
"
Chris: I still see no evidence that Khalil supported 10/7,
True. It's "guilt by association" at the moment. However the margin of error is large and the idea of him supporting terrorism looks a lot more reasonable than it did at the start of this thread.
Chris: Would supporting armed resistance in Palestine generally be grounds for deportation?
Faict, the "armed resistance" groups in Palestine are resisting the idea of Jews and a Jewish state in the Middle East. That's why they target civilians, it's why their charters read the way they do, and so on.
So the answer to your question is going to be "yes". Normal rules apply. Supporting terrorism is grounds for deportation.
"
I do not see any evidence that most, or even more than a few, of the protestors supported 10/7.
Shrug. Enough did to make it into wiki, whatever that's worth. The better question is whether he personally said or did something along that line or whether the group he was leading did so.
We don't have specific information. However we've managed to draw a potential line from him to legal deportation. Whether the gov can do that in court is a different question.
Protesting(*) is legal but supporting terrorism is not. Israel was at war with an openly genocidal terror organization. Opposing the war without supporting the terror organization requires clear thinking on an emotional topic.
(*) There are a good number of things that "protesters" can do in the name of protesting which also crosses lines. They don't have the right to shut down education or harass random people even if they are Jewish and so on.
"
RE: genocide denialism
If the number of deaths is less than the number of births then is very hard to claim that Israel is killing everyone it can.
Given the Palestinian refusal to admit how many of the dead are militants, we're stuck with various estimates which suggest the Israeli Army's civilian kill ratio was pretty normal (or even good) for urban combat.
RE: the protests, where in the Wikipedia page does it say they supported 10/7
In fall 2024, activist groups including CUAD had begun to use rhetoric in support of Hamas and the October 7 attacks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Columbia_University_pro-Palestinian_campus_occupations#May_31%E2%80%93June_2,_2024:_Alumni_weekend_encampment
On “So Let’s Put Together a Democratic Party Ad Campaign”
I voted for Harris. However Harris ran as an empty suit. My strong impression was she was sincere about being pro-choice and her identity policies and insincere about all of her other positions.
Big picture, the fiscal sanity wing of the GOP is in the process of being removed from the coalition and will become swing voters.
On “Open Mic for the week of 3/10/25”
LeeEsq: ...the Pro-Palestinian side decided to latch onto the broad definition of genocide in the Geneva Convention because they needed to district from Hamas and 10/7.
IMHO it's "accuse the other side of doing what you're doing so no one can tell the difference."
On 10-7 the Palestinians (including but not limited to Hamas) killed every Jew they could get their hands on, which is "genocide". That's really ugly and showcases what the Right of Return would look like.
If Israel is also committing genocide, then everyone is committing genocide so no one is.
On “So Let’s Put Together a Democratic Party Ad Campaign”
I would like to see Team Blue running on economic growth and good government. "Economic growth" would include "free trade".
Trump is creating massive disruptions in business. Maybe someone can make ads where the auto industry explains why his tariffs destroy auto jobs and they built their businesses around the trade agreements Trump himself forced through last time.
On “Open Mic for the week of 3/10/25”
Wiki says at times the Columbia protests were supporting 10/7. I have no idea what he personally said or did, however he was their leader so there's that.
Chris: or just in opposition to the then ongoing genocide
It is probably not useful to lower the definition for "genocide" to the point where it applies to all wars.
"
There's also the matter of the protesters supporting 10-7. That presumably is "endorsing terrorist activity".
So yes, you can get deported for supporting Hamas and/or 10-7.
And if this is long time established law, then we're also back to “wolf” accusations.
"
This guy is a leader of the Columbian protests, which has repeatedly resulted in the police arresting them. I'm not a lawyer and I haven't been following those protests in detail, but I am wondering which lines have been crossed.
"
Serious question. Does holding a Green Card mean you can't be deported for supporting Hamas and Oct 7th?
"
Because we've been fed a constant stream of "wolf" accusations for decades. There's nothing you can say about Trump that you haven't said about all other GOP presidents during my lifetime.
The republic is always going to end if Team Blue doesn't get it's way.
On “Open Mic for the week of 3/3/2025”
Chris: I mean, she’s right, the movie is dated.
Very true. That's a professional challenge for her to overcome. She failed.
If she had nothing positive to say about the original then she should have said nothing about it and focused on how she "enjoyed" working on the update and hopes everyone will enjoy it. Alternatively she could have called it "time tested" or something else vague.
Her job is to reach out to the fans of original and try to convince them to see the movie. Describing the previous male lead as a "stalker" seems unlikely to do that.
Questions about whether or not she was up to the part could have been trivially fixed by releasing a clip of her singing one of the songs or just a picture of her in costume (btw she looks and sounds great).
The fans of Vampire Lestat thought Tom Cruise was a terrible choice up until the studio released a clip of him in character. Try picturing what the fans would have thought about Tom describing Lestat as a gay serial killer.
"
The lines I normally draw are...
1) Can an otherwise uninvolved student still function?
If the protesters are shutting down the U then they're preventing other people from getting educations.
That very much would include setting up lines and insisting that anyone attempting to cross them "denounce Israel". Whether that's a protected class or not is irrelevant.
2) Violence and the threat of violence.
The normally illegal things are still illegal. That would include calling for genocide... which I would think includes calls to destroy Israel.
"
DavidTC: Firstly, not letting people through unless they denounced Israel is _not_ discrimination against any sort of protected class.
This is like saying obstructing traffic isn't discrimination of a protected class.
DavidTC: I don’t think private universities should make investments that support ethnic cleansing,
What we had going on was a war. Normally the line we draw with "investments" is "legal" vs "illegal".
DavidTC: I think people at those universities, who are giving them that money, have a right to protest that. Because that makes _them_ feel unsafe.
Legal fiscal investments in Jewish companies makes people "feel unsafe"?
How does that work?
"
It's a lot easier to claim racism than try to defend what's happened on that movie.
Zegler's behavior was seriously unprofessional. Her job is to generate good PR for the project, not be "a waking PR disaster for Disney". Describing Prince Charming as "a guy who literally stalks [Snow White]", going on to deem the story "weird".
I hope all of this drama has been mishandled marketing and they end with a product my daughter and I would enjoy seeing. However Disney cancelling the premiere suggests they know they have a turkey on their hands on top of what Zegler has done to advertise it.
"
Chris: ...the only reason for being upset about this casting decision is racism.
Most remakes of popular movies don't have their lead actress give interviews on how bad the original was. That's just unprofessional. I think the same interview also had her talk about how they've redone the plot so it's now about girl power and how Snow doesn't really need Charming.
"
To answer Chris' question, the University is under pressure from the student activists to treat that sort of thing and the shutting down of various educational buildings as a normal student protest and largely does.
Various other groups (including Trump) see it as deeply antisemitic and/or criminal and think the University should be using criminal charges and the law to deal with it.
"
Chris: What are some examples of this discrimination?
Criticism increased when a January 2024 recording of one organizer, Khymani James, saying "Zionists don't deserve to live" was released
...Another protester was recorded holding a sign reading "Al-Qassam's next targets" in front of student counter-protesters holding Israeli flags.
...protesters both on and off campus were recorded targeting Jewish students with antisemitic vitriol...
...protesters at the encampment were filmed chanting "Zionists not allowed here", while another protester called for "10,000 October 7ths". One Jewish student reported protesters saying "kill all the Jews" and "we want one Arab state",
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Columbia_University_pro-Palestinian_campus_occupations#Allegations_of_antisemitism
On “Comment Rescue: DavidTC on the Supreme Court’s ruling on the Unfreezing of Funds”
"powers that be for making".
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.