Exactly. It's not as though these people buying houses were greedy fucks who wanted a mansion for a dollar a day. They honestly believed the financial agents who told them that they could afford the house. (Hell, in most cases they were paying those agents, either by commission or directly!)
Of course, the conservative-troll reply to this liberal-troll would be that if you washed your goddamn hands you wouldn't get gangrene from a paper cut.
"Actually the way I read it the rural white person whose on disability would be in the ‘entitlement class’ while the one that’s a self employed home contractor would be in the ‘labor class’."
Per the Tennessee Taxonomy in the post, yes. Per Fussell's definition, no. Like I said.
"Yes but the usual thinking with a market system is that rewards (here ability to consume) should follow productivity. "
And the capital class is indeed productive. Transplanted Lawyer gets paid to provide them with legal services; makers of luxury items derive income from the existence of the capital class's trust funds and investments; heck, even those fund and investment managers wouldn't have jobs if there weren't funds and investments for them to manage. While the members of the capital class might not be earning money through their own effort, it's not like they don't put money into the economy.
Indeed, what TL suggests is that the notion of "get money because of personal effort" is an expression of class morality, not a universal truth.
" I’m not arguing that’s right or wrong, just that the politics of the day can affect our constitutional law."
...and this isn't a case of the politics of the day affecting constitutional law?
You're talking as though the interpretation of the Commerce Clause as a "Do Anything I Want To" Clause is something that everyone has agreed on for a long time, and now here's these Republican idiots trying to screw everything up. That's not the case.
To those who are wondering "Why
isn't 'S-F' the same as 'sci-fi'?"
Well, you see, there's a fine line
between Robert Heinlein
and 'Son of the Two-Headed Fly'.
250 years before Al Gore invented the Internet, and here's James Madison telling us why Web2.0 and "crowdsourcing" are terrible ideas. The Founding Fathers were visionaries indeed!
No, because the term implies "government payments are the sole source of support and the person is intentionally acting so as to maximize those payments, to the extent of acting in an immoral and irresponsible manner". "Got some kind of government benefit" is not the same thing.
Haha, yeah. "These are the best years of your life! Now eat this boring food you hate and then get to bed. You've got to get up early tomorrow so you aren't late for eight hours of school!"
I can think of a few. Or, at least, I can think of some where I'd have rather been more cutting, more intellectual, more willing to grab an opportunity and ram it up the bastard's ass sideways. Instead of just bellowing inchoate fury and storming off. There's some fights I'd love to do over again.
"The Gulf may not be totaled, but it, and the coast people, are seriously damaged."
And one of the reasons that the Gulf and the coast people are so seriously damaged is the number of people insisting that the Gulf and the coast people must be seriously damaged.
"I'm not going to eat Gulf shrimp, everyone says they're full of oil!" "Have you actually looked it up yourself?" "Well, no, but everyone says they are..."
Are there any states where stimulus couldn't be said to have "helped get them through the last few years"?
I guess you could say that if a state didn't take any stimulus money at all. But then, if they have a budget deficit and don't take stimulus money they're "foolishly ideological to the point of harming their residents". If they didn't take money and don't have a deficit then they're "ignoring the threat of underfunded pensions". And if they didn't take money and don't have deficits and are fully funding their pensions, well, I'm sure there's a pothole somewhere that will let us do 'em for "crumbling infrastructure".
That Act established government-built and -run hospitals, staffed with doctors who were government employees. It was paid for by taxing the wages of only those it was intended to benefit. And it was put into place because the persons in question were considered vital to national security.
"You can have two rural white people both with average incomes but belonging to two different classes….one person’s ‘average income’ coming from say being a contractor and another person’s ‘average income’ coming from disability payments."
Except that Fussell would say that both of those persons were the same 'class', at least the way he defines classes.
"There are indeed a class of people who make their way by being parasites on the ‘capital class’ either as heirs to fortunes or simply ‘hangers on’..."
But that's not a 'class' as defined by Transplanted Lawyer. That's just an occupation. He'd say that those people you describe are probably solidly within the 'labor class', in that they believe Work is necessary to obtain Wealth. The Tennessee Taxonomy doesn't make any distinctions about what kind of work--indeed, there's just as much of an industry providing services to the 'entitlement class' as there is to the 'capital class'.
"This is somewhat ironic IMO because you’d think the market system would drive towards efficiency and productivity but it seems like many in the ‘capital class’ are not very efficient nor productive. "
In a way, this is addressed by Transplanted Lawyer's comment that "[i]n terms of absolute dollars, cable TV, cell phones, clothing, and even auto leases are not terribly expensive anymore." This applies to both ends of the scale. Society is becoming increasingly removed from the confluence of income and survival; that is, you don't have to work anymore to obtain what's needed for survival (and, depending on your tastes, the what's needed for luxury.)
I do have to say that I find it tiresome when someone's definition of "class" dovetails neatly with their definition of "rural white person of average income", which is what Fussell appears to be doing.
I do, however, think that the blogger's Tennessee Taxonomy is possibly the best definition of "American class" you could ask for.
Not just lawyers. Remember Cher's plumber dad in Moonstruck? "Then, there's copper. Which is the only pipe I use. It's expensive, but it saves money in the long run. And ya gotta spend money to save money." "Uh...I think we better do what he says..."
Ha. I guess I didn't realize that while Tea Party people are stupid LaRouchian idiots, Global Warming is totally real and is totally going to totally kill everyone, like, real soon now.
The joy of seeing the world end isn't solely or even primarily a right-wing thing. Consider the Anthropogenic Global Climate Change movement (which used to be Anthropogenic Global Warming, and before that it was Global Cooling.) Consider the eight years of screaming about how George W. Bush was Emperor Palpatine (and the curious silence when people point out that, policy-wise, we're in GWB's third term.)
Considering that the blog post links to an article showing that people's experience is useless where it isn't flat damn wrong, it's rich to see you citing your "own experience" regarding the psychology and motivations of people you don't know and haven't met personally.
No. But if I don't like what the people who work for those CEOs do, then I can go buy things from the competition. If I don't like what the FDA does, what choice do I have? Move to another country?
This is actually a useful question; because, for a regulatory agency, "no activity" is not necessarily a failure mode. If nobody submits anything to the FDA for review, then ipso facto no unsafe drugs will be sold to consumers, and so the FDA's stated goals will be met!
Jaybird's point is that without government interference in the market, you would be able to vote your pocketbook.
There's nothing stopping M&P Liquor from saying "hey, those Liquor Warehouse guys are jerks, come to M&P liquor! We've got higher prices, but we make up for it with better service!" Except, that is, for government regulations regarding liquor stores. Maybe the reason that there isn't any competition to Liquor Warehouse is that the government has made it illegal for there to be more than one liquor store in a town...
For real-life examples of this, see Pennsylvania's laws about beer stores. You cannot have more than one beer store in a town. So if the guy running the beer store is a total asshole, then that's just too bad.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.
On “Wealth Transfer”
Exactly. It's not as though these people buying houses were greedy fucks who wanted a mansion for a dollar a day. They honestly believed the financial agents who told them that they could afford the house. (Hell, in most cases they were paying those agents, either by commission or directly!)
On “Oh the times! Oh the customs!”
Of course, the conservative-troll reply to this liberal-troll would be that if you washed your goddamn hands you wouldn't get gangrene from a paper cut.
"
Starbucks is a fad? Yeah, just like that Mickey Donald place. It'll never catch on, people like the local diner too much to go somewhere else.
On “Three Classes”
"Actually the way I read it the rural white person whose on disability would be in the ‘entitlement class’ while the one that’s a self employed home contractor would be in the ‘labor class’."
Per the Tennessee Taxonomy in the post, yes. Per Fussell's definition, no. Like I said.
"Yes but the usual thinking with a market system is that rewards (here ability to consume) should follow productivity. "
And the capital class is indeed productive. Transplanted Lawyer gets paid to provide them with legal services; makers of luxury items derive income from the existence of the capital class's trust funds and investments; heck, even those fund and investment managers wouldn't have jobs if there weren't funds and investments for them to manage. While the members of the capital class might not be earning money through their own effort, it's not like they don't put money into the economy.
Indeed, what TL suggests is that the notion of "get money because of personal effort" is an expression of class morality, not a universal truth.
On “Texas, Welfare Queen”
When was the last time Bill Gates did anything resembling the "work" his academic career had prepared him for?
On “Schilling on Social Security”
" I’m not arguing that’s right or wrong, just that the politics of the day can affect our constitutional law."
...and this isn't a case of the politics of the day affecting constitutional law?
You're talking as though the interpretation of the Commerce Clause as a "Do Anything I Want To" Clause is something that everyone has agreed on for a long time, and now here's these Republican idiots trying to screw everything up. That's not the case.
On “Science in Sci-Fi film”
To those who are wondering "Why
isn't 'S-F' the same as 'sci-fi'?"
Well, you see, there's a fine line
between Robert Heinlein
and 'Son of the Two-Headed Fly'.
On “Oh the times! Oh the customs!”
250 years before Al Gore invented the Internet, and here's James Madison telling us why Web2.0 and "crowdsourcing" are terrible ideas. The Founding Fathers were visionaries indeed!
On “Texas, Welfare Queen”
No, because the term implies "government payments are the sole source of support and the person is intentionally acting so as to maximize those payments, to the extent of acting in an immoral and irresponsible manner". "Got some kind of government benefit" is not the same thing.
On “What’s your Sputnik moment?”
Haha, yeah. "These are the best years of your life! Now eat this boring food you hate and then get to bed. You've got to get up early tomorrow so you aren't late for eight hours of school!"
"
I can think of a few. Or, at least, I can think of some where I'd have rather been more cutting, more intellectual, more willing to grab an opportunity and ram it up the bastard's ass sideways. Instead of just bellowing inchoate fury and storming off. There's some fights I'd love to do over again.
On “Obama’s pep talk”
"The Gulf may not be totaled, but it, and the coast people, are seriously damaged."
And one of the reasons that the Gulf and the coast people are so seriously damaged is the number of people insisting that the Gulf and the coast people must be seriously damaged.
"I'm not going to eat Gulf shrimp, everyone says they're full of oil!" "Have you actually looked it up yourself?" "Well, no, but everyone says they are..."
On “Texas, Welfare Queen”
Are there any states where stimulus couldn't be said to have "helped get them through the last few years"?
I guess you could say that if a state didn't take any stimulus money at all. But then, if they have a budget deficit and don't take stimulus money they're "foolishly ideological to the point of harming their residents". If they didn't take money and don't have a deficit then they're "ignoring the threat of underfunded pensions". And if they didn't take money and don't have deficits and are fully funding their pensions, well, I'm sure there's a pothole somewhere that will let us do 'em for "crumbling infrastructure".
On “Schilling on Social Security”
That Act established government-built and -run hospitals, staffed with doctors who were government employees. It was paid for by taxing the wages of only those it was intended to benefit. And it was put into place because the persons in question were considered vital to national security.
That's not Obamacare; that's the VA.
On “Three Classes”
"You can have two rural white people both with average incomes but belonging to two different classes….one person’s ‘average income’ coming from say being a contractor and another person’s ‘average income’ coming from disability payments."
Except that Fussell would say that both of those persons were the same 'class', at least the way he defines classes.
"There are indeed a class of people who make their way by being parasites on the ‘capital class’ either as heirs to fortunes or simply ‘hangers on’..."
But that's not a 'class' as defined by Transplanted Lawyer. That's just an occupation. He'd say that those people you describe are probably solidly within the 'labor class', in that they believe Work is necessary to obtain Wealth. The Tennessee Taxonomy doesn't make any distinctions about what kind of work--indeed, there's just as much of an industry providing services to the 'entitlement class' as there is to the 'capital class'.
"This is somewhat ironic IMO because you’d think the market system would drive towards efficiency and productivity but it seems like many in the ‘capital class’ are not very efficient nor productive. "
In a way, this is addressed by Transplanted Lawyer's comment that "[i]n terms of absolute dollars, cable TV, cell phones, clothing, and even auto leases are not terribly expensive anymore." This applies to both ends of the scale. Society is becoming increasingly removed from the confluence of income and survival; that is, you don't have to work anymore to obtain what's needed for survival (and, depending on your tastes, the what's needed for luxury.)
"
I do have to say that I find it tiresome when someone's definition of "class" dovetails neatly with their definition of "rural white person of average income", which is what Fussell appears to be doing.
I do, however, think that the blogger's Tennessee Taxonomy is possibly the best definition of "American class" you could ask for.
"
Not just lawyers. Remember Cher's plumber dad in Moonstruck? "Then, there's copper. Which is the only pipe I use. It's expensive, but it saves money in the long run. And ya gotta spend money to save money." "Uh...I think we better do what he says..."
On “The Moment of Impending Crisis”
...and what you call "retained profit" is what the people who talk about excessive corporate profit think is at 60%.
"
Ha. I guess I didn't realize that while Tea Party people are stupid LaRouchian idiots, Global Warming is totally real and is totally going to totally kill everyone, like, real soon now.
"
The joy of seeing the world end isn't solely or even primarily a right-wing thing. Consider the Anthropogenic Global Climate Change movement (which used to be Anthropogenic Global Warming, and before that it was Global Cooling.) Consider the eight years of screaming about how George W. Bush was Emperor Palpatine (and the curious silence when people point out that, policy-wise, we're in GWB's third term.)
"
Considering that the blog post links to an article showing that people's experience is useless where it isn't flat damn wrong, it's rich to see you citing your "own experience" regarding the psychology and motivations of people you don't know and haven't met personally.
On “Reclaiming Liberalism”
No. But if I don't like what the people who work for those CEOs do, then I can go buy things from the competition. If I don't like what the FDA does, what choice do I have? Move to another country?
"
...do what now? The only connection anyone at the FDA has with a ballot box is that the President appoints the person in charge.
On “Explaining that post that didn’t make sense”
This is actually a useful question; because, for a regulatory agency, "no activity" is not necessarily a failure mode. If nobody submits anything to the FDA for review, then ipso facto no unsafe drugs will be sold to consumers, and so the FDA's stated goals will be met!
On “Reclaiming Liberalism”
Jaybird's point is that without government interference in the market, you would be able to vote your pocketbook.
There's nothing stopping M&P Liquor from saying "hey, those Liquor Warehouse guys are jerks, come to M&P liquor! We've got higher prices, but we make up for it with better service!" Except, that is, for government regulations regarding liquor stores. Maybe the reason that there isn't any competition to Liquor Warehouse is that the government has made it illegal for there to be more than one liquor store in a town...
For real-life examples of this, see Pennsylvania's laws about beer stores. You cannot have more than one beer store in a town. So if the guy running the beer store is a total asshole, then that's just too bad.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.