Agreed. And with such a fine record for his first term it's awfully high risk for him to stay in but you can easily see why he's so furiously bridling at the pressure to step down.
I think David Frums article (now there's a guy who's come around from the Bush lesser days) is quite on point in the Atlantic today.
The difference this time around is that, in the past, it'd be left wing parties that stood down candidates and essentially supported centrist parties. This time in many cases the centrist parties and candidates stood down and supported leftist parties.
I can't believe I'm typing this but well done to the french.
I think that a LOT of leftists have to eat crow now too. They all said that the centrists would rather see the Pennists take control than be junior partners with the left. They have been entirely and totally refuted.
Dude did you watch the debate? It was a heck of a lot more than the raspiness. If it was just raspy I wouldn't give a fish. This man eviscerated Paul Ryan in 2016 and served him his own libertarian posterior on a plate with a cheeky irish grin. Last night he just stood there choking while Trump waddled around the stage lobbing softballs at him. It was not adequate, it wasn't remotely close to adequate. Biden needs to do better.
Sure, he has two options, deliver publicly, a lot or step down. Looks like he's trying to go the first route- good for him I wish him well. But if he tries to go back into his shell it ain't gonna fly.
Speaking as a gay man married to a black man I think I have plenty of skin in the game but I also reject the identarian framing in general. Biden is not a messiah or a great thinker, he's the nominee of our party and he owes his party members his very best. If last night wasn't his very best, he needs to demonstrate he can still deliver better and if he can't he needs to make way for an alternative candidate. As Chip said, the country is potentially at stake.
I'm not saying Biden must go. I'm saying that a major fish up happened last night and Biden's previous strategy of low visibility has to go or he'll have to step down. This is quite the opposite of learned helplessness. This is a concerned member of Bidens' party and a personal fan of his saying "step up or step out sir. It's one or the other."
I'm thinking more about the times the Republicans tanked their own border security for Ukraine aid bill because the Dems had the temerity to agree to it personally.
If Joe Biden can't ameliorate concerns about his performance and steps down for someone else, whether that is Harris or other, I'm confident the Dems would not suffer a 1968 debacle at the convention.
Resilience is a thing for the 11th hour. It's 10:55 right now and the question of this hour is "would our odds be better if Joe stepped down and let someone else take his place as nominee?" Joe Biden is not owed the nomination, he performed unsatisfactorily last night and he has a responsibility to either demonstrate that it was a fluke or else step down. And I say that as a rock solid fan of his performance the last four years and as a moderate ideological fellow traveller.
Saul, this isn't a question of if Biden lost the debate- he did but that is secondary- it's that he barely seemed functional. If this was an off night- a cold or something temporary then the Biden policy of low profile and silence needs to end so he can get out there and demonstrate that he's still got it.
And if he can't... then he should consider stepping aside. If what we saw last night is Bidens' norm then replacing him with Harris would be a lift. She is a former prosecutor. I think she could debate Trump pretty well.
After last nights debate I am thinking Harris would be preferable. If last night was just an off night then Biden needs to get out there and show it. If not, he should make some tough decisions. Unlike many, while I am unenthused, I do not profoundly fear a Harris candidacy.
25ing him and keeping him on the ticket would be simply handing the election to Trump.I, frankly, ignored that one because it's the solution to a problem we don't have. Biden has been running his administration perfectly fine, but he seems to not have the oomph for the even more demanding job of presidential campaigning.
And as for the notion of back room deals being made with the GOP for the good of the country? I'll be civil and not scornfully laugh at that idea the way it deserves.
It is -not- armchair pundit talking. I am a member of the Democratic Party of this country. This is a question of the ability of the presumptive nominee of my party for the Presidency to run in such a way as maximizes odds of victory. I am neither detatched nor view from nowhereing. I want to win, very badly. I have always been a yellow dog Democrat and the years of the GOP's decay and descent have not lessened those inclinations. We need to win.
As to your statement I'd say the same damned thing as you at the 11th hour. But right now, in this moment, we're in the late minutes of the 10th hour. So the thing i am saying now is "Replace the doddering old guy, it's important." Then if that doesn't happen then when the clock strikes eleven I'll switch to "Vote for the doddering old guy, it's important."
I'd say what I'm saying now. First: to contribute the tiny microscopic scintilla of an atom worth of pressure I can contribute to the force welling upwards pushing the party deciders to decide.
Second: to demonstrate to an undecided persuadable voter that I and my party are reality based and non-insane.
And, yes, if Biden hangs in there, if the party deciders make the call to continue backing him, yes if it's the eleventh hour I'll probably say what you're saying to an undecided voter.
Yes, agreed and if it comes to that choice in November you certainly know where I'd vote.
The question on the table for the party, right here, right now, is "Is Biden the candidate most likely to win in November or would our odds of winning increase if Biden quit/was pushed out and replaced by another candidate?)."
Absolutely David, I agree which is why I still think Biden is solid for the job of Presidenting. His circle, cabinet and admin is very much a part of that.
For the next few months, though, job #1 is Winning Presidential Candidate and on that metric there're serious substantive worries.
Sure they could, but noone has the authority now that the votes are in. It's going to have to be a conversation by Bidens inner circle and the party's inner circle. Ultimately only Biden can make the call. They can't force him out without violating the rules and bylaws of the party.
It was fair on her part and agonizing for us in his party. A terrible shame. Some grieving is allowed but either an emphatic refutation performance by Joe is required or else some kind of decision at this point. I don't think his team can punt this.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.
On “Trump was just shot at a rally. He appears to be fine.”
Ugh, whoever that dumb fisher is can rot in hell. The absolutely worst thing to do.
On “From WaPo: Post-debate Battleground State Polling”
Agreed. And with such a fine record for his first term it's awfully high risk for him to stay in but you can easily see why he's so furiously bridling at the pressure to step down.
I think David Frums article (now there's a guy who's come around from the Bush lesser days) is quite on point in the Atlantic today.
On “French Far-Right Place Shocking 3rd In Legislative Elections”
The difference this time around is that, in the past, it'd be left wing parties that stood down candidates and essentially supported centrist parties. This time in many cases the centrist parties and candidates stood down and supported leftist parties.
"
I can't believe I'm typing this but well done to the french.
I think that a LOT of leftists have to eat crow now too. They all said that the centrists would rather see the Pennists take control than be junior partners with the left. They have been entirely and totally refuted.
On “About Last Night: Debate Debacle Edition”
Here's hoping it's the case. A bit early to say.
"
Dude did you watch the debate? It was a heck of a lot more than the raspiness. If it was just raspy I wouldn't give a fish. This man eviscerated Paul Ryan in 2016 and served him his own libertarian posterior on a plate with a cheeky irish grin. Last night he just stood there choking while Trump waddled around the stage lobbing softballs at him. It was not adequate, it wasn't remotely close to adequate. Biden needs to do better.
"
Sure, he has two options, deliver publicly, a lot or step down. Looks like he's trying to go the first route- good for him I wish him well. But if he tries to go back into his shell it ain't gonna fly.
"
Speaking as a gay man married to a black man I think I have plenty of skin in the game but I also reject the identarian framing in general. Biden is not a messiah or a great thinker, he's the nominee of our party and he owes his party members his very best. If last night wasn't his very best, he needs to demonstrate he can still deliver better and if he can't he needs to make way for an alternative candidate. As Chip said, the country is potentially at stake.
"
I'm not saying Biden must go. I'm saying that a major fish up happened last night and Biden's previous strategy of low visibility has to go or he'll have to step down. This is quite the opposite of learned helplessness. This is a concerned member of Bidens' party and a personal fan of his saying "step up or step out sir. It's one or the other."
"
I'm thinking more about the times the Republicans tanked their own border security for Ukraine aid bill because the Dems had the temerity to agree to it personally.
"
Well they'll likely have to suck it up because the overwhelming likelihood is that if the old man steps down she'll be the next nominee.
"
If Joe Biden can't ameliorate concerns about his performance and steps down for someone else, whether that is Harris or other, I'm confident the Dems would not suffer a 1968 debacle at the convention.
Resilience is a thing for the 11th hour. It's 10:55 right now and the question of this hour is "would our odds be better if Joe stepped down and let someone else take his place as nominee?" Joe Biden is not owed the nomination, he performed unsatisfactorily last night and he has a responsibility to either demonstrate that it was a fluke or else step down. And I say that as a rock solid fan of his performance the last four years and as a moderate ideological fellow traveller.
"
Well speaking only for myself, if last nights performance is indicative I am 100% okay with replacing Joe with Kamala.
"
Saul, this isn't a question of if Biden lost the debate- he did but that is secondary- it's that he barely seemed functional. If this was an off night- a cold or something temporary then the Biden policy of low profile and silence needs to end so he can get out there and demonstrate that he's still got it.
And if he can't... then he should consider stepping aside. If what we saw last night is Bidens' norm then replacing him with Harris would be a lift. She is a former prosecutor. I think she could debate Trump pretty well.
"
After last nights debate I am thinking Harris would be preferable. If last night was just an off night then Biden needs to get out there and show it. If not, he should make some tough decisions. Unlike many, while I am unenthused, I do not profoundly fear a Harris candidacy.
"
25ing him and keeping him on the ticket would be simply handing the election to Trump.I, frankly, ignored that one because it's the solution to a problem we don't have. Biden has been running his administration perfectly fine, but he seems to not have the oomph for the even more demanding job of presidential campaigning.
And as for the notion of back room deals being made with the GOP for the good of the country? I'll be civil and not scornfully laugh at that idea the way it deserves.
"
It is. I had so hoped for a rerun of Biden/Ryan 2008. That was a good time.
"
It is -not- armchair pundit talking. I am a member of the Democratic Party of this country. This is a question of the ability of the presumptive nominee of my party for the Presidency to run in such a way as maximizes odds of victory. I am neither detatched nor view from nowhereing. I want to win, very badly. I have always been a yellow dog Democrat and the years of the GOP's decay and descent have not lessened those inclinations. We need to win.
As to your statement I'd say the same damned thing as you at the 11th hour. But right now, in this moment, we're in the late minutes of the 10th hour. So the thing i am saying now is "Replace the doddering old guy, it's important." Then if that doesn't happen then when the clock strikes eleven I'll switch to "Vote for the doddering old guy, it's important."
"
None of which would work considering that the Dems don't control all the legislatures that such schemes would require.
But the party can pressure him to step down and I think that, absent some serious remediative performances right quick, they should do so.
"
I'd say what I'm saying now. First: to contribute the tiny microscopic scintilla of an atom worth of pressure I can contribute to the force welling upwards pushing the party deciders to decide.
Second: to demonstrate to an undecided persuadable voter that I and my party are reality based and non-insane.
And, yes, if Biden hangs in there, if the party deciders make the call to continue backing him, yes if it's the eleventh hour I'll probably say what you're saying to an undecided voter.
But not now, not yet.
"
Yeah frankly I don't think anyone has any place to complain much about the moderators or the format.
"
Yes, agreed and if it comes to that choice in November you certainly know where I'd vote.
The question on the table for the party, right here, right now, is "Is Biden the candidate most likely to win in November or would our odds of winning increase if Biden quit/was pushed out and replaced by another candidate?)."
"
Absolutely David, I agree which is why I still think Biden is solid for the job of Presidenting. His circle, cabinet and admin is very much a part of that.
For the next few months, though, job #1 is Winning Presidential Candidate and on that metric there're serious substantive worries.
"
Sure they could, but noone has the authority now that the votes are in. It's going to have to be a conversation by Bidens inner circle and the party's inner circle. Ultimately only Biden can make the call. They can't force him out without violating the rules and bylaws of the party.
"
It was fair on her part and agonizing for us in his party. A terrible shame. Some grieving is allowed but either an emphatic refutation performance by Joe is required or else some kind of decision at this point. I don't think his team can punt this.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.