Deficits, Debt, and DOGE

Russell Michaels

Russell is inside his own mind, a comfortable yet silly place. He is also on Twitter.

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71 Responses

  1. Philip H
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    So want it all burned down. You offer no real solutions to the problems you identify. And you remain convinced that federal civil servants – doing what congress told them to do – need to suffer as a consequence. Got it.

    In other words nothing new. Move on people.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H
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      I offered plenty.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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      Imagine that the government is like a forest.

      Sometimes you need significant pruning and removal of the dead wood.

      “So you just want it all burned down.”
      “No, that’s actually what I’m trying to *PREVENT*.”

      California’s wilderness husbandry in recent years demonstrates what can happen when there is a catastrophic failure.

      If you want to prevent that sort of thing, you have to actively cut some stuff away and remove stuff.

      If you’d like to complain that that won’t be as pleasant as pretending that there isn’t going to be a fire someday, you’re right. Pretending that there isn’t going to be a fire someday is much more pleasant than removing dead wood.Report

      • Russell Michaels in reply to Jaybird
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        Precisely.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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        The three biggest sources of deadwood are tax breaks for corporations and the 1% – they have never trickled down nor have there ever driven growth as promised; defense spending and tax incentives for business (like ethanol subsidies). Canning off the 1% that is foreign aid is never going to help. Ditto firing half the federal workforce. What has been proposed so far is burning it all down so that rich tech bros don’t have their greed impinged on. Nothing more nothing less.Report

        • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H
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          Making arguments I have never made.

          So, let’s address it: No matter the set tax rate, the effective tax rate for all tax revenue has historically been 18-22% of GDP.

          Effective tax rate is all that actually matters, although the rate affects people in the bottom of each rate quintile more than those at the top of the ladder, for obvious reasons associated with economies of scale.Report

  2. Slade the Leveller
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    Does anyone recall what happened the last time the U.S. government ran a budget surplus?Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
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      The World Trade Center got attacked?Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Slade the Leveller
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      Zero debt service was done?

      The post-Cold War peace dividend was largely a farce fueled by the dot com bubble and Clinton willfully ignoring the rise of Islamofascist terrorism.

      Try again.Report

      • InMD in reply to Russell Michaels
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        This is down right hysterical, given we spent at least $5 trillion dollars for the Pentagon to fight ‘islamofascist’ terrorism abroad when at the end of the day all we needed was reinforced cockpit doors and maybe a narrowly defined special forces operation in Afghanistan.Report

        • Chris in reply to InMD
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          The only way to fight Islamic terrorism is to ignore its causes while spending trillions on wars of choice that destabilize an entire region, radicalizing many thousands of young people in the process (and battle-hardening them), and in the end, at least in some cases, result in us leaving with our tail between our legs.

          Meanwhile, cancer research is an area ripe for fraud, and we should halt it completely.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chris
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            The suggestion that we should spend money on good things and not spend it on bad things is risible.

            We need to maintain the status quo at all costs.

            This is what “progressive” means.Report

            • Chris in reply to Jaybird
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              Who gets to decide what’s good and what’s not good? Elon Musk and his coding epigones? I promise you, risible is not how this strikes me.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris
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                Is it even possible to distinguish between things?Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird
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                This is probably your weakest attempt at avoiding a question.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris
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                It seems like we’re in a place between:

                1. Status Quo
                2. Changing Things

                I can understand the argument that the status quo is preferable to letting Trump be President and letting Elon audit the government. I can!

                But the argument that the government should only change if Good People are in charge of it is one that makes a lot of assumptions that, among other things, fail to take into account the reality on the ground (the reality, of course, includes the whole “50%+1 of people seem to have voted for exactly this” thing).Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
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                I went back and reread Chris’ comment and he made no mention of bad or good people. In fact, the 2 things he mentioned were war and cancer research. Let’s stay on point.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
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                The question was “Who gets to decide what’s good and what’s not good?”

                I jumped to something like “morality experts, presumably good ones” but I would be willing to hear who we think should be in charge of deciding what’s good.

                Philosophy majors? We’ve been trained…Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
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                Missed that one. Good or bad people can be in charge of government, and both can make either good or bad decisions regarding change. Whichever way the decisions go, they must be lawful.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird
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                It’s true that in literally all aspects of life we have two choices at the most abstract level, change or not change, but I can’t think of a single domain in which merely asking, “Should we change or not change?” is particularly useful, nor can I think of many, if any, in which “Change for change’s sake” is useful.

                Since you are fond of analogies (e.g., the forest one above), I’ll offer one: imagine if a person is in an abusive marriage. They have two choices: stay in the marriage or leave. If we only ask this question at this level, pretty much everyone will say, “Leaving, obviously.” But what if “leaving” means being homeless? What if it means getting into a relationship with an even more abusive person? What if it means jumping out of an airplane without a parachute? Without specifying what leaving entails, we haven’t really addressed the question of whether leaving is better.

                Do I think halting all cancer research is better than doing research as we’ve always done it? No. Do I think it would make sense to evaluate the way we do cancer research funding to make sure we’re not wasting money where that money could be better spent on curing friggin’ cancer? Sure, that makes sense.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris
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                One of the big things that I’ve grown wary of is the whole “High Speed Rail” gambit when it comes to funding.

                I think that High Speed Rail would be good.
                I think that Cancer Research would be good.
                I think that there are a lot of things that would be good.

                If, at the end of the day, we end up with a bunch of non-replicable experiments and not a single passenger has ridden the rails, it seems to me that the topic should not be whether Cancer Research is important and whether I support it.

                I do support Cancer Research.
                I support High Speed Rail, for that matter.

                “Well, then… you should give me money and leave me to my own devices.”Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird
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                I’m saying that I think this cure is worse than the disease. Generally, curing the person by killing them is considered bad medicine. And I think killing the patient is the ultimate goal here. Hell, Musk has basically said so in the past.

                I will say that the tiny accelerationist voice in the back of my head keeps saying, “Yeeeeees,” though.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris
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                While this cure could easily be worse than the disease… we’re not even done diagnosing it yet.

                The last thing we need is a cancer cure if we, instead, have explosive cell death.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                Elon is not Auditing anything.Report

            • InMD in reply to Jaybird
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              I am against domestic boondoggles. But all domestic boondoggles at least put money in the pockets of Americans, and even the worst of the worst are to some degree defensible on those terms.

              The boondoggles Russel is defending caused untold damage (Chris understates it only because it takes books to describe how bad both wars and related activities were). The money would have been better spent by flying around in a helicopter dumping it out over American cities.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD
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                I absolutely agree with that. And as someone who supported Afghanistan and argued that Iraq was important because the government wouldn’t lie to us about WMDs, I now look back at those beliefs and do a mixture of cringing and kicking myself.

                So now I am willing to look at the spending and, at the very least!, bring sunlight to what is being done.

                There’s a simple heuristic that strikes me as reasonable:

                If this particular spending came to light, would I rather be defending it?

                So to grab an example that is easy: Social Security payments to a 68 year old plumber who retired last year.

                Yes. I would easily prefer to defend that.

                A government payment to an NGO that has 78% overhead costs?

                No. I would easily prefer to have someone else defend it while I attacked it.

                Between those two absurd extremes there is a grey area someplace and I would love to find it, so long as we agree that the stuff on the bad side of the gray area can be cut.

                And if that is *NOT* something that is acceptable to the opposition, I will then shrug and sit back down.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird
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                No real disagreement on the principle. This is where I interject that there was a ‘smarter government’ component to the Obama administration. That inclination seems to have been lost in the Biden admin and the unusual circumstances of slow growth and essentially 0% interest on government borrowing that preceded it. I am all for bringing those concepts back.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD
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                Maybe we should ask the Republicans to go back to Mitt Romney and Democrats will support him this time and there won’t be *ANY* Hitler comparisons.

                “Can we go back to the deal we rejected a decade ago?”Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird
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                I am not one to defend the constant calling up of the famous Austrian in American politics but that’s just changing the subject.

                What killed Romney was the proposal for wholesale restructuring (read massively cutting) of entitlements. Some changes there may well need to be on the table at some point but I know that you know that isn’t the same as auditing fraud waste and abuse in discretionary spending or ferreting out millions spent on teaching the women of Kandahar about Gloria Steinem or whatever.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD
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                Huh. I thought that the Romney thing would be preferable to Literally Voldemort.

                If we’re in a place where Trump is doing something that we agree should be done (though we kinda wish that someone else were doing it), we’re in a strange new territory.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird
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                I feel that way about a handful of things Trump is doing and I am probably to the left of 75-80% of the country. I doubt I’m alone.

                However if you ask me if those things are worth the price of other things going on or likely to go on under this administration I’d still say no.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                It’s always bemusing when you return to this well and I just have to ask what your assertion is?

                Like, was Romneybot treated unfairly when he ran in 2012? Any objective review at how Presidential candidates in the recent past were treated, especially on the left, would have to answer that question “no, not particularily”. LIkewise are you suggesting it’d have been better for liberals if Romney had won in 2012? As in trading a term for Obama for 1-2 theoretical terms of Romney and the obvious rejoinder is “LOL of course not”. So that, then, begs the question as to what your core assertion vis a vis Romney is?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                LIkewise are you suggesting it’d have been better for liberals if Romney had won in 2012?

                What does that timeline look like?

                2012 – Romney

                What happens in 2016? Hillary? Might Hillary have beaten Romney in 2016 as the strongest Democratic nominee the Democratic machine had yet been able to put together?

                What happens in 2019? Does that same bowl of bat soup get eaten in the wet market?

                Does George Floyd try to pass a counterfeit $20 only to get choked out by his nightclub co-worker?

                Does 2021-2024 go nuts just like last time?

                There are a *LOT* of little linchpins on that wheel.

                But I’m mostly struck by the whole “is there *ANYTHING* that you’d have been willing to trade in the last decade?” question always getting the answer of “why are Democrats the only ones who have to give things up?”Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                Counterfactuals are extremely hard to run, to put it mildly, would Pres Romneybot have had a Dem Senate in ’12? Would the GOP have taken full control of Congress in ’14?

                I think the only thing we can say with any confidence is SSM would have been pushed back a few years and the Iran deal would have never occurred. Since I, and most liberals, consider both of those good policies obviously Romney would have been a terrible trade without even assuming his normal Republitarian tax cut nonsense would have been an awful trade for the gridlock that Obama had. There’s also a non-zero chance that Romneybot sends boots in when Syria uses chemical weapons which would have been a W style clusterfish. Does Pres. Romneybot butterfly away Trump? Maybe in 16. Do I think Hillary would have beat him? If he beat Obama how on God(ess?)’s green earth would he have lost to Hillary??! Anything post 2016 is, frankly, nonsensical to even speculate on.

                Like I said, the counterfactuals break down fast. Romney didn’t narrowly lose to Obama, remember, he got pretty firmly walloped.

                Which brings me back to the core question: were liberals incorrectly or unfairly unsupportive of Romney? Hahaha God(ess?) no! Would a world of a Romney presidency be a brighter one from a liberal point of view? No, not even if we assume only one term.

                And would Romney have prevented Trump? I’d say absolutely not. Trump took over the GOP because of the gaping chasm between the GOP’s ruling elite and their voters on tax policy, gov spending and immigration along with the shriveling of the social conservative movement that papered over it. Romney wouldn’t have addressed any of those problems and, if anything, would have likely exacerbated them.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                I’m pretty sure that Obergefell would have happened no matter what… but if we are in the best of all possible worlds, we sure seem to be kicking and screaming a lot.

                And whether Trump would have been prevented, I have no idea. Let’s give Clinton two terms.

                It’s 2024. Does Trump get elected?

                Maybe. He’s just, you know, unprepared. No Project 2025 (not that he ran on it), no DOGE, no nothin’. Maybe some light immigration reform.

                Maybe what happened to Liberals over the last couple of decades is the best that Liberals could have hoped for.

                And it brought us Trump anyway.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to North
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                It never ceases to amaze me that anyone would hold Democrats responsible for the quality of Republican candidates. Or vice versa, if the question ever came up in reverse.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                For what it’s worth, I think Trump is inevitable not because of the whole left v. right thing, but because of the whole populist v. elitist thing.

                Swapping out Romney literally does *NOTHING* to fight against Trump’s inevitability. Take out Romney, put in Clinton. Take out Clinton put in Jeb.

                It’s 2024.

                We have Trump.

                And *NOT* because he’s Republican. Let’s face it, he’s a piss-poor Republican.

                (If you want a good Republican, you have to go to the Cheney family.)Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                Trump is a republicans because that was his path to power. Characterizing him as a populist remains the most hilarious thing you do around here. He definitely uses populist rhetoric but don’t govern as a populist last time and isn’t this time.Report

              • North in reply to CJColucci
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                You and me both but I got what I wanted which was to find out if this was simply an appeal to counterfactuals (it seems to be) or if there was any deeper meaning or implication (seems to not be the case) so I’m actually pretty content with the response I got.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to InMD
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                Except I gave an example in this very article that there wasn’t.

                Hell, Obama didn’t sign a significant piece of legislation in his final six years in office other than sequestration and a minor tax increase.

                Come on, man!Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to InMD
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                And how successful was it?

                Because you don’t exactly seem to know.Report

              • InMD in reply to Russell Michaels
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                Do you think you know? Or that Elon Musk knows?

                I’m happy to concede that having a conversation like that on the merits requires a level of research no one on this blog is going to do. However to the extent we’re arguing about what was in the platform and legislation actually accepted by the administration I’d say the evidence is clear.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to InMD
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                You clearly don’t.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                There has been sunlight for nearly two decades. It’s called USAspending.govReport

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H
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                And yet all this graft continues unabated no matter who is in the White House.

                Curious, that.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Russell Michaels
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                Because Congress directs it.

                Did you not take civics in school? Are you that unaware of how federal spending works?Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H
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                We haven’t had regular budgeting since at least the Obama Administration.

                Do try again.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Russell Michaels
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                I agree we haven’t had regular order appropriations. It was a problem in the GW Bush administration when I joined federal service. Again that’s a Congress issue. President still turn in their budget requests largely on time.Report

        • Russell Michaels in reply to InMD
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          And if Clinton had killed or captured Osama bin Laden on one of the three golden opportunities he had, maybe 9/11 never happens.Report

          • InMD in reply to Russell Michaels
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            Yea I recall those debates. Clinton was very prominently confronted about these kinds of counterfactuals by Chris Wallace and it was such a big deal it dominated a whole news cycle. I’d say Clinton had the better of the exchanges but I suppose ymmv. I would also say though that the GOP called it ‘wag the dog’ when Clinton did attempt a strike on bin Laden when he was in Sudan, which suggests to me that if Clinton wasn’t taking the threat seriously enough then neither was any politician on the national stage at the time.Report

            • Philip H in reply to InMD
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              Remember that only Democrats have agency.Report

            • North in reply to InMD
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              I think it’s really good for posterity that we host the neocon writers we host- it’s always good to remember just how they used to argue and how they were; if for no other reason than to remind ourselves of why it is that Trump, of all people, was able to utterly defenestrated them out of their own party.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to North
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                And I’m a neocon apparently now?Report

              • North in reply to Russell Michaels
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                As far as I’ve seen from your writing style and your substantive positions the answer to that question would be: absolutely yes, always have been, my goodness how could you possibly think otherwise?

                And I don’t even use it pejoratively, it makes me feel like I’m in my 20’s and 30’s again when I read your stuff.Report

              • InMD in reply to North
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                It would take me thousands of words to unpack but I believe that most current political debates can still be traced to the crisis of trust in government unleashed by the GWOT. If I wanted to really get aggressive I’d say it’s had the mirror image impact on our polity that winning World War 2 did. Trump is of course very much a part of that.Report

              • North in reply to InMD
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                I’d agree and you and I probably also find a certain bitter commonality in that we both think that Bush W still wears the feces caked crown of the most destructive American President for the welfare of the union in modern American history. Trump is horrible but for all his embarrassments, idiocies and flailing he hasn’t come close to W yet in terms of material devastation to the American standing and welfare.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to North
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                I’d go further back to St. Ronny with his “I’m from the Government, and I’m here to help.” comment.Report

              • North in reply to Slade the Leveller
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                It could be just presentism and the fact that Ronal Regan was before my time but by the numbers for tax cuts, budgets exploded and horrific utterly useless wars embroiled in Bush W seems to have Ronny beat handily. I am not even sure how to balance Iran Contra against W’s torture regime, but I feel that the latter is even more atrocious than the former.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to North
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                Torture is definitely where America sold its soul. A huge reason why I didn’t vote for BHO in 2012 was the fact that Guantanamo remained open.Report

              • North in reply to Slade the Leveller
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                Obama had two choices on the subject- consume his entire term punishing, persecuting and reversing W’s atrocities or sort of mumble past them, stop doing them where possible and do other things. I don’t think it speaks well of him that he chose not to do the former but it’s very understandable that he looked at his historic mega-trifecta and said “I’m expected to squander this on Bush?!?!” and went for the ACA instead.Report

  3. DensityDuck
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    I think it’ll be useful because it’ll show people how much spending appears to be for Bullshit Jobs but in fact is related to specific things that the government was specifically directed to do.Report

  4. Slade the Leveller
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    The author fails to mention a couple of really easy methods to shore up the Social Security trust fund: remove the wage limit on the tax, and means testing benefits. Heritage ran some numbers here: https://www.heritage.org/budget-and-spending/report/saving-the-american-dream-the-heritage-plan-fix-the-debt-cut-spending

    It’s only 3 weeks into the Trump administration’s efforts to curb spending, but they’re just nibbling at the edges.Report

  5. Slade the Leveller
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    This article encapsulates much of the point I’ve been trying to make in the comment threads of various posts over the last several days: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-losing-court-boring-reason-adminitrative-procedure-act-rcna191113

    There are lawful ways for the DJT administration to do what it wants to do. He’s just to lazy to do it. That we probably all expected. What should shock Americans is we have half the country ready to skirt the law right along with him.Report

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