When War Becomes Criminal

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

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16 Responses

  1. Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    Biden released a statement:

    The ICC prosecutor’s application for arrest warrants against Israeli leaders is outrageous. And let me be clear: whatever this prosecutor might imply, there is no equivalence — none — between Israel and Hamas. We will always stand with Israel against threats to its security.

    There is a bunch of footage of Biden saying “We reject the ICC’s application of arrest warrants against Israeli leaders — what’s happening is not genocide” on the twitters… from both pro- and anti- accounts.

    The ICC is allowed to play, I guess. Just not with the big boys.Report

  2. DavidTC
    Ignored
    says:

    I like how every time Israel’s behavior is brought up, it becomes about numbers.

    You realize there are very blatant war crimes that are not ‘Israel has been killing statistically high number of civilians’, right?

    Israel has, very deliberately, sniped a bunch of clearly unarmed people trying to get to delivered aid packages, and one notable instances of sniping at people trying to rescue a trapped child… Oh, and they have actually sniped some children too. These are circumstances that, it needs to be stressed, no Israeli soldiers were even vaguely in danger.

    Israel has kidnapped doctors and tortured them to death to try to force confessions of helping Hamas.

    Israel continues to occupy the West Bank, unlike Gaza this is undisputed, legally speaking, and has continued to not only force out people at gunpoint, which is a war crime, but has deliberately armed civilian terrorists to terrorize people there in an attempt to get them to leave, which is also a war crime, in fact it’s actually textbook ethnic cleansing. (Like, literally, this is how ethnic cleansing works in the modern world governments don’t do it, they just let ‘random uncontrolled militias’ do it.)

    I’m just listing the most obvious and easy to prove war crimes here, mostly because I want an answer of whether it is even hypothetically possible for Israel to commit war crimes in everyone’s book?Report

    • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
      Ignored
      says:

      Of course Israel can commit war crimes. The one that I saw involved Israeli soldiers doing something small and petty and tacky. Which means that they were filming themselves doing this. Which means that unit commanders didn’t have the discipline to keep them from doing this nor had the discipline to keep them from filming it and posting it to the wider internet as if they were proud of doing small and petty and tacky things.

      And Israel shrugs and says “if you don’t want a war, don’t start one” and asking you to acknowledge that October 7th was bad.

      In better news, the ICC also put out warrants for some of the Hamas leadership. So, at least, they didn’t screw that part up.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
        Ignored
        says:

        The one that I saw involved Israeli soldiers doing something small and petty and tacky. Which means that they were filming themselves doing this. Which means that unit commanders didn’t have the discipline to keep them from doing this nor had the discipline to keep them from filming it and posting it to the wider internet as if they were proud of doing small and petty and tacky things.

        They are _also_ doing those war crimes, but I notice we’ve somehow pivoted to tacky things that individual soldiers might merely be doing against orders, instead of the ‘arming civilian terrorists to terrorize Palestinians in a legally-considered-occupied-territory-under-the-laws-of-war such as to cause them to leave’, a thing that is, again, ethnic cleansing.

        A thing that is, objectively, being done with the approval of the Israeli government. It’s easy enough to prove, as the government literally overtly supports this, praises it, gives orders to supply them weapons, bulldozers their houses, and then seizes the land from the people who were driven off. There’s no way to pretend this isn’t something that the Israeli government is not doing, and it is objectively a war crime, straight up actual-textbook ethnic cleansing.

        It’s weird how we somehow drifted off that topic. Maybe, when trying to figure out when someone is going to be charged with a crime, we talk about the _very obvious_ crimes that have been blatantly committed in full view of everyone, and not the vague ones of ‘soldiers messing with underwear and filming themselves’ that might or might not qualify.

        Likewise, snipers who kill children and civilians who are obviously collecting air-dropped aid are either operating under the Israeli rules of engagement or not. If those are the Israeli rules of engagement, Israel is committing war crimes. If they are not, if thsoe soldiers have decided to murder civilians themselves, they must be legally be prosecuted for those war crimes and discipline restored, or their leadership is, in fact, also committing war crimes.

        I have tried to explain, repeatedly, that war crimes are ‘contagious’, and no one seems to actually understand this. If Israeli soldiers are committing war crimes, and Israel does nothing to stop them, then Israel leadership is, in fact, committing war crimes, and can be charged with them. Even if they never told anyone to do that!

        Hell, if Israeli soldiers are committing war crimes and the US is away this _might_ be happening and still helps this in any manner, the _US_ is committing war crimes.

        We are used to dealing with the police and corporations, where no one has to take accountability for the actions of their underlings and things just somehow ‘happened’. That is not how war crimes work at all. We all know that ‘just following orders’ isn’t an excuse, but neither is ‘I gave lawful orders and it’s just that soldiers didn’t bother to follow lawfully’…if your soldiers are breaking the law and committing war crimes, you MUST fix that. You have an actual legal obligation, it’s part of your many obligations when running a war, or you are also breaking the law.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
          Ignored
          says:

          I have tried to explain, repeatedly, that war crimes are ‘contagious’

          I absolutely agree with this. If the soldiers don’t have the operational discipline to not engage in small and petty and tacky marginal war crimes, it wouldn’t be surprising to find out that they’re killing civilians and killing civilians deliberately.

          Heck, they’re bragging about doing the marginal stuff. Downright bragging about it.

          That is not how war crimes work at all. We all know that ‘just following orders’ isn’t an excuse, but neither is ‘I gave lawful orders and it’s just that soldiers didn’t bother to follow lawfully’…if your soldiers are breaking the law and committing war crimes, you MUST fix that. You have an actual legal obligation, it’s part of your many obligations when running a war, or you are also breaking the law.

          I agree with this. 100%. I believe that the Israelis are, in fact, committing war crimes. It’s documented.Report

          • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
            Ignored
            says:

            Fun image going around today: Israeli soldiers filming themselves setting fire to Aqsa Univerisity. Filming themselves in front of shelves of burning books.

            I remind people, for no reason, that targeting civilian structures is a war crime. Not destroying incidentally as part of something else being targeted, that can just justified. _Targeting_. They were fully in control of the library, there were no military targets there. Also, this was a university library, which clearly puts it under ‘school’, which has even higher restrictions on destroying.

            I also remind people, for no reason, that one of the method of ethnic cleansing is property destruction.

            I remind people, again for no reason and wow I seem to have wildly wandered off the topic and am just randomly saying unrelated things today, that attempting to destroy cultural knowledge, such as would be in _university_ libraries, is part of how genocide works, and in fact we have very clear examples for it during the *check notes* Holocaust, specifically with the burning of *checks note again, frowns* allegedly Jewish books. Hmm.

            I will then remind people _here_, quite pointedly, how everyone was talking about how bad it looked when a previous fan of J.K. Rowling burned their own books in protest and we were all supposed to be horrified at the optics of that. Cause, you know, book burning inherently looks so bad that the actual context of ‘this is books that someone owned and were destroying, not denying the books to anyone else’ doesn’t even matter.

            Book Burning Looks Horrific and no civilized person would ever do anything vaguely looks like it. We all agree with that, right?

            And I point out, dropping all pretense, that the actual point I’m making here is not the actual war crimes, it’s how Israeli society is _so broken_ that they think this can even vaguely pass as acceptable. Where exactly do you have to be mentally to think that burning down university libraries, explicitly burning books, is a reasonable thing to do, and film yourself doing, and put online?

            At least Hamas seems to understand that their actions outrage people.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
              Ignored
              says:

              I agree with that. I think that Israel is acting like there’s some sort of Jim Crow thing going on with a drop of the Tulsa race massacre of 1921.

              They’re no longer acting like this is about October 7th at all.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC
      Ignored
      says:

      “You realize there are very blatant war crimes that are not ‘Israel has been killing statistically high number of civilians’, right?”

      Are you interested in comparing war crimes, or is that not useful with you because you hate Jews too bad to think straight about it?Report

      • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck
        Ignored
        says:

        Comparing with whom? And to what ends?

        I mean I guess you could be in the Two wrongs make a right camp, but where I come from two wrongs are still wrong.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
          Ignored
          says:

          I think it’s the whole issue of who gets the “THIS IS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE!” and who gets the “well, you have to understand…”.

          October 7th? Killing people at a music festival?
          “Well, you have to understand… holding a party at the border of an open-air prison is, itself, an act of aggression. We all remember the comedy bits that involve the kids who can’t go outside and the kids who just got back from the ice cream truck doing a dance in front of their window. “I’ve got ice cream and you don’t! Ha ha!” Well, it’s funny when it’s ice cream, it’s not funny when it’s basic human rights. I’m not saying that October 7th was *GOOD*. I’m just saying that it was inevitable.”
          “Israel responding to October 7th was inevitable.”
          “WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING GENOCIDE?!?”Report

          • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
            Ignored
            says:

            I remember that very successful story, Star Wars, about how a bunch of oppressed people never fought back. Or The Man in the High Castle. Or, like, all of human history.

            *rolls eyes*

            October 7th wasn’t inevitable, no specific military operation is inevitable, but it is inevitable that eventually people held down and constantly injured fight back.

            This is something we know as humans, but somehow forget when it’s our ally doing it. Because we like to ignore the fact that is actually what is happening.Report

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