On “Nice” Liberals and “Mean” Conservatives

Avi Woolf

3rd class Elder of Zion. Wilderness conservative/traditionalist. Buckley Club alum. Chief editor of @conpathways.

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31 Responses

  1. Pinky says:

    There’s a lot to think about in this article. I hope the comments section gets really active. My first thought is that conservatives (a) don’t have a religious framework like we used to, (b) have one but don’t talk about it, and/or (c) talk about it but aren’t heard. I guess I should have included something in there about how some don’t really have a religious framework but talk like they do, but I was more thinking about what the barriers are to the communication of one.

    As for “facts don’t care about your feelings”, I always saw it as a poorly-worded or cutely-worded declaration that the subjective doesn’t change the objective. I think about how we’ve gone from “it’s ok if you think you’re a woman” to “it’s illegal for me to call you a man” and I do consider it a really important point.Report

  2. North says:

    I read this from my own liberal point of view and felt a strange comingling of mild exasperation and a strange pity despite the fact that the article is well written and Avi presents his positions solidly.

    Like, if liberalism and conservativism were houses then I feel like Avi, having been evicted from Chez” Right”, is standing, haggard in a rather disheveled state, with his statuette of Buckley and his Reagan portrait laying on the ground around him with his luggage, bowtie and shoes. He stands with his Road to Serfdom autographed copy clutched trembling under his arm for safe keeping. As the flames shoot out of the upstairs windows of the Conservative house behind him and the whoops and howls of his co-rightists ring out, Avi strokes his chin, looks across the street at Chez Liberalism and casts a skeptical eye on the pool house on the far-left side of “Chez Liberals” where the social justice set have erected a very “woke” and, admissibly, a rather visually loud mural which includes a loud squawking blue bird shaped speaker, also some of those residents have set up a barbeque and it’s smoking vigerously. Avi talks somberly about the relative “meanness” of the two respective households ignoring the vague confused glances of the many rather boring looking liberals going in and out of the main annex of “Chez Liberals” with their Biden pins to the left of their blue ties. Meanwhile the boys from Claremont pull into the driveway of “Chez Right” with their speakers blaring and it looks like they brought a keg and several boxes of spirits with them. The flames and shrieks behind grow louder behind Avi and cast his shadow, long and dark, across the street as he frowns and considers the relative merits of his conservativism and how it measures against the ideals of the folks in Chez Liberal’s pool house as if the rest of the house doesn’t exist.

    It’s utterly irrational of me. I feel like I should go offer a blanket and some cocoa and ask if there’s someone I can call for him. Though I suppose the kind thing to do would be to lean on the fence around the front yard of Chez Right and engage Avi on the terms he’s discussing it just feels… silly. Like a somewhat non-sequitur thing to do.Report

    • You offered a great visual of what it feels like to observe someone like Avi in their impossible conundrum. But we could be objective about it. There has been a vast amount of social science research at this point. We don’t need to speculate. For the most part, we understand what is going on and what it all means.

      There is strong correlations between conservatism, right-wing authoritarianism, social dominance orientation, collective narcissism, orderliness, conventionalism, traditionalism, need for closure, need for certainty, low tolerance for cognitive dissonance, etc. And simultaneously low rates of openness to experience, intellect, fluid intelligence, original problem solving, pattern recognition, cognitive flexibility, perspective taking, cognitive empathy, willingness to forgive, etc.

      There is a reason that these right-wing mentalities increase under conditions of stress, particularly chronic stress and perceived threat: trauma, sickliness (parasite load, pathogen exposure, etc), high inequality, dominance hierarchies, etc. The conditions that promote right-wing mentalities is not a happy and healthy place to be. Even those on the left become more conservative-minded under these oppressive conditions. Why would anyone willingly choose this?Report

  3. Doctor Jay says:

    It’s all very well to talk about “nice” and “mean” but meanwhile, my daughter is never going to visit the State of Texas again because of the treatment she received there. (She is trans) Is that “woke”? Is that “nice”? This is not hypothetical, it is something that happened. To her. And to me.

    These things are highly personal to us and very meaningful. It is more than a little bit irritating to have it glibly discussed as “woke”.

    I endorse the idea that sometimes doing “good” does not involve being “nice”. Is there something “good” about Gov. Abbot’s initiatives against trans persons? Does it express love? compassion? It looks like a political performance to me, with no value whatsoever as policy, other than “Ewww, get those icky trans people out of my face”.

    I did not read you whole piece and I am sorry for that. It’s just that I am so sick of having personal intimate details of my family’s life being discussed in such an offhand way.

    And if you are going to play the “It’s just her feelings” card….We’re done. You don’t know anything about it. Try presenting yourself as the opposite gender for even a full week with no relief, no time outs, and see how exhausting it is. That’s what every trans person has to do every day without end, until they transition.

    I’m not here to argue about this. I’m here to bear witness. I am very likely to not respond to replies, just so y’all know.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Doctor Jay says:

      I had a conversation the other day about whether Republicans will ever regain the queer vote, like they could hypothetically do with Hispanics, or whether it’s more like the Black vote in that they can never ever recover it.

      Spoiler alert: it’s the latter.

      They have, very casually and with no concern whatsoever, cause incalculable harm to various queer people, and the community talks. There are literally refugees, families who have had to flee certain states because otherwise their children could be taken away. Republicans don’t seem to understand this is happening.

      The joke was, before all this transphobia showed up, Republicans probably could have regained things. Yes, they blocked gay marriage, but that was recoverable, because honestly a lot of Democrats did too, and the Dem party itself barely got on board with it before The Supreme Court legalized that it and made it a non-issue.

      Republicans could have, decades later, just sort of been ‘yeah, we were a little late to the game on that, but we’re fully in favor of it now’.

      Nope. Not anymore. They have permanently made the Republican brand toxic to yet another percentage of the population, a percentage that will never ever ever vote for them.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to DavidTC says:

        People like Andrew Sullivan and Caitlyn Jenner demonstrate that there doesn’t really need to be any such thing as the “queer vote”, unless the Republicans choose to create it.

        LGBTQ people, like all people are spread out all across the political spectrum and prioritize a lot of different issues.

        But like all people their top priority is “Not being arrested/fired/socially reviled ” and they will in the end vote accordingly.

        Sullivan and Jenner are banking on the idea that their wealth and prominence will save them but for the other 95% of LGBTQ people the seething contempt of the Republicans seems pretty clear.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          I think I’ve mentioned this before here, and honestly I’m thinking of actually writing some sort of primer on LGBTQ stuff and seeing if I can get it as an article here, but there are two conflicting positions, two different end goals, in the queer community WRT to society: Assimilation vs. Liberation. And without understanding that there are two different things, it’s _extremely_ hard to understand any sort of LGBTQ political stuff.
          .
          Basically, assimilation is ‘As a group, LGBTQ people should end up looking like cishet people except with some small variations. Those variations should be considered normal.’, and liberation is says ‘As a group, LGBTQ people should look like whatever the hell we want to look like. It is not our job to change ourselves in the slightest to fit in.’. And there’s a whole bunch of stuff that goes from there that I’m not going to get into in a comment. It’s literally a 70 year old debate at this point.

          Sullivan and Jenner are the most extreme assimilation position, the actual _traitor_ assimilation position that says ‘Look, I assimilated, everyone now says I’m normal, and everyone weirder than me can just FOAD, they’re making me look bad.’Report

  4. LeeEsq says:

    To be fair to the Right, much of the Further Left, the type that cringes at wine moms visibly, also hates the niceness of liberalism. The niceness of modern liberalism comes from the fact that it is trying to inclusive and positive combined with the fact that liberalism always saw humans as being of reason and that a well-crafted argument as convincing and transformative power. On the other blog, I talk about how not very online liberals and leftists tend to believe in what I call Secret Disney Liberalism. This is the belief that deep down nearly every human is decent and with the right education and exposure, the true decent nature of all humans will shine forth. I am too much of a pessimist to believe this but it is a relatively common belief among my fellow liberals.Report

  5. Chip Daniels says:

    My take is a lot like North’s, but I would illustrate it more like that Avi is one of those turn of the century Russian Marxists who cheered the rise of Trotsky and Lenin, and were rewarded with a bullet to the head. Or maybe one of the Chinese cadres who marched with Mao on the Long March and for their trouble were beaten and paraded in public by the Red Guards.

    They had no idea what they were dealing with, and I don’t think Avi does either.

    In a couple of Republican states now it is illegal to use a textbook if it might offend the feelings of white students. It wasn’t young people who did this, it was old people, old people who are wearing the armband of Conservatism and goosestepping under the banner of Trump.

    Republicans are intending to hang women who have abortions, and stand by with arms crossed while women with miscarriages or complications writhe in agony to the point of death.

    Republicans are willing to force a 10 year old girl to deliver her rapists baby on the grounds she is old enough to be a fit mother, while denying her access to gender affirming care on the grounds she is too young to know what she is doing, and after delivery, refusing to accept free federal assistance that might help the young mother.

    Republican Senators in North Dakota voted themselves fat meal reimbursements from the public treasury, while refusing to give lunches to hungry children.

    In Tennessee they sneer at young people who march and plead with them for protection against being murdered in school, then expel and try to silence a legislator who dares to challenge them peacefully.

    The battleground in 2023 has nothing whatsoever to do with niceness or hurt feelings or hyperindividualism or complex ideas about libertinism. The battle is between democracy and authoritarianism, tolerance and bigotry, human rights and barbaric tribalism.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Ari’s problem is that he is basically one of maybe a handful of sincere philosophical conservatives who really did think it was all about whatever Oakeshot wrote about and he just doesn’t want to give that up.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        Honestly, that’s the problem of half the conservatives here, they are operating in reality that never actually existed.

        Conservative philosophy, for all the many many books and papers and everything that have been written laying out a semi coherent system, was always a paper thing covering that these super Rich plastered over their actual philosophy that was mainly to enrich them by stirring up resentment by lower classes against Others.

        We have some conservatives here who realize this, and we have some who sort of haven’t yet.Report

  6. I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this piece. I’ll first note the three straw men he levies against the left: “Defund the Police” was a poster and slogan during the height of the race tensions of the summer of 2020. It was not and never will be a policy of Democrats, who would rather reform and redirect funds to serve these communities better. No matter, conservatives will hammer the left with the phrase well into the 2050’s. Second, it’s Republicans not Democrats who have been deliberately destroying public schools with homeschooling, Charter schools and now vouchers. Third, squaring the balance sheets of our entitlement programs is as easy as turning up the tax knob. Everyone knows these things, but conservatives will never address the root causes or the real solutions and instead always, as here, turns the issue into one of culture and values.

    The core of the modern Republican party, and thus Conservatism, came together in the 1980’s as an wannbe-holy alliance of hard-core religious reconstructionists with their ant-abortion and anti-LGTBQ agenda, right-libertarians living-free-or-dying and big business, particularly finance and resource extraction industries, whose pitchmen served as the public face “moderate republicans” of the sort I suspect the author counts himself.

    I also suspect that quite a lot of the howling about cancel culture and “woke” is really that the third leg of that stool is running for the hills now that the religious fanatics and the anti-democracy crowd have fully taken over the Republican Party.

    It’s difficult to engage with pieces like this because it’s about feelings and language. But also, since I don’t have a problem with addressing people in the third person by the pronoun they prefer, I tend to view most debates on “woke” and “cancel culture” to be apologetics for haters. I’m not accusing Mr. Woolf, but I just don’t see the utility of this type of analysis. It’s all just smokescreen unless you’re being honest about what the politics of the Republican party is doing to the country right now.
    But I do agree with his conclusion: Conservative ideology doesn’t have anything to offer, especially to young people. The single biggest threat to them, before Dobbs and Red State Legislators came at them and their families directly, is climate change. And getting shot at school. Or the supermarket.
    They can’t afford homes. They’re being told up front that at any chance Republicans get, rather than fix entitlements with easy fixes that require a bit of sacrifice from high-earning fat-cats, they’re just going to turn that entitlement money over to those same fat-cats to gamble with. And make them work a couple of extra years to get at it.

    Conservatism failed because not only because it has no solutions though, it failed because it believes the solution to every problem is to look to the past.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to ArBiter (aka, Chasm) says:

      “It was not and never will be a policy of Democrats”

      heheh

      first: “Defund The Police!”
      next: “well you have to understand that we don’t mean ‘total elimination of all law-enforcement’ we just mean ‘dismantle the existing structure of entrenched racism and replace it with a totally-new organization that will definitely not have the problems because we’ll make sure to have everyone fill out a form that says ‘ARE YOU RACIST Y/N’ and anyone who checks ‘Y’ isn’t allowed to be part of it”
      now: “Defund the Police? pffft, nobody ever said that…”

      “conservatives will never address the root causes or the real solutions and instead always, as here, turns the issue into one of culture and values.”

      you’re honestly here suggesting that it’s only conservatives who talk of culture and values

      although actually you’re right, but not how you think you are

      because it’s important to remember that since about 2012, queer acceptance is a conservative positionReport

      • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

        That last paragraph of yours is utter nonsense. I don’t mean it’s wrong, I mean it is actual nonsense, in that you are using the word conservative in a different way than this conversation is using it and thinking that it’s a gotcha.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

          nope

          queer acceptance is a conservative position

          you need to break free of your socially-conditioned response, carefully cultivated to fit in with your only available friend group, that “conservative” is a synonym for “Republican” is a synonym for “older white suburban low-income cishet racist misogynist transphobe”Report

          • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

            Are you attempting to assert that conservative means something besides Republican?

            To be blunt, why would I even care?

            See, I know Republicans are reactionary, not conservative, but that literally doesn’t matter because _everyone in politics_ who identifies as conservative is meaning reactionary Republican.

            And we are, in fact, having a political discussion.Report

            • One might argue that any conservative who isn’t reactionary isn’t really a conservative at all. At this point, American conservatives at least are simply reacting to new forms of liberalism by co-opting old forms of liberalism. There hasn’t been a respectable conservatism distinct from liberalism since the the classic conservatives were made illegitimate in having lost the American Civil War.Report

  7. Saul Degraw says:

    I would like to bring up an old tale from 2018: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/scaachikoul/california-college-republicans-milo-yiannopoulos-donald

    College Republicans at the University of California needed a new jefe. One candidate running was a full on own the libz troll. The other candidate wanted the College Republicans to be a kind of moderate Governator or Michael Bloomberg technocratic kind of place. Guess who won easily? The own the libz troll!!!

    You post these essays every few weeks or months and it is always astonishing to me how it just never sinks in that old-school high minded philosophical conservatism was never as popular as its adherents imagined. Stop trying to make Oakeshot happen.

    As to why kids are not so into conservatism these days, how can you blame them. The GOP refuses to do anything reasonably sensible on gun control, they are rabidly anti-abortion, they don’t care about climate change because they will be dead when it gets really bad and sucks to be you, they are transphobic, homophobic, and then just troll instead of engaging in honest debate. They debate in bad faith.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      You post these essays every few weeks or months and it is always astonishing to me how it just never sinks in that old-school high minded philosophical conservatism was never as popular as its adherents imagined

      It was basically zero popular. All that high-minded stuff was just so they’d have something to put in philosophy books.

      The actual movement, as understood by the voters, was always rooted in fighting against The Other, even if the people at the top had managed to fool themselves. That’s why Trump was able to hijack the whole thing so easily, he threw away all the thin justifications.Report

      • My conservative and Republican father is not only a highly educated intellectual who regularly reads scholarly books but a professor. He is also of the oldest generation in power, the Silent Generation. He remembers the era that many conservatives claim as the high point of this respectable conservatism. Yet my father has never heard of the likes of Oakeshott. It’s an extremely rare conservative who could name even one supposedly high-minded, respectable, and moderate conservative intellectual.Report

  8. MAJC Man says:

    I’m inclined to agree with the assessment that the modern conservative movement doesn’t have anything to sell (other than opposition to things) and that this is a big reason why it’s struggling to attract youth voters, but I do also think this essay is pretty hasty in its attempts to show a rationale for conservative opposition. All examples given are pretty ridiculous straw men. I think this severely undercuts the overall point that’s being made.Report

  9. Jaybird says:

    One of the go-to moves of “smart” political television in the olden days was have the cranky conservative technocrat character make a prediction that the best-laid plans of the progressive character would fail and then, for a handful of reasons, have the progressive character’s plans fail.

    Progressive character could later be found in a conference room (if female, crying but not ugly crying). Cranky conservative comes in sits down and there is a minor moment of bonding. Sympathy is offered, a story from the cranky conservative’s youth comes up… as it turns out, he used to believe things too! It’s just that after enough things failed, he went pragmatist. He’s not *MEAN*… he just wants things to work!

    Wow. They learn about each other. “Maybe I should have a better bedside manner”, the conservative says. The progressive really appreciates it.

    Credits.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

      (although due to syndication, that moment results in no permanent changes in attitude and is never brought up by either character ever again)Report

  10. Rufus F. says:

    Okay, this is totally anecdotal, but the way I remember it, pre-9/11, was that conservatives were stern old fuddy duddies who could be killjoys, while liberals were namby-pambys who were too soft when it came to bad people. One type was too pessimistic and one was too optimistic, but if you get down to it, all of us are a little liberal and a little conservative, aren’t we? Now, I was fairly young and probably basing this too much on what my Reagan Republican parents thought, but it was sort of a grudging you-make-a-me-so-crazy-but-we-need-each-other! sort of thing.

    At the time, Rush Limbaugh seemed like a totally new thing because he really did go for the jugular with liberals. My parents loved Reagan and found Rush too strident and abrasive. But I think his influence was arguably more significant in the long run.

    But, after 9/11 is when I remember hearing the stuff about how liberals were *really* conspiring with the enemies of America, and conservatives were *really* trying to end democracy. It really did flip, it seems to me, and I don’t think it’s ever changed back to anything like a normal discourse.

    Which, it occurs to me, was partly why this site got launched. To aim for a normal discussion.Report

  11. DavidTC says:

    Over time, thanks to a whole series of changes including technological and economic shifts as well as cultural rebellions (the 1920s, 1960s, 1990s), those ideas were weakened or entirely dropped over time. This left and continues to leave conservatives of positive things they can espouse and encourage in a way that means much to current generations, at least without a cultural revival of some sort.

    Hey, maybe you’d like to tell us what positive things that conservatives were conserving that were rebelled against in the 1960s? Something about racism or was it sexism, or maybe both of those, I don’t remember.

    And hell, I know it’s kind of old and no one remembers, but what were flappers rebelling against? Why, it appears to be the incredibly restrictive rules that women were required to live under before that.

    Huh, weird, it looks in both cases it was conservatives who were fighting for huge sections of society to not have rights. Weird how that appears to turn vast majority of people off, good thing you’ve stopped doing that, oh wait, you’re still going after queer people. Oopsie.

    As for the ’90s? There was not a cultural rebellion in the 90s. Yes, the youth acted like youth, which they had always done, and eventually always grew out of.

    What happened in the ’90s is you guys decided to start pandering to far right media, allowing them to dictate who real conservatives were, resulting in the primary of everyone who wasn’t the farthest right as humanly possible. (I don’t know, maybe this is what you mean by technological changes, because it really was driven by Fox News, which previously would not have been able to reach every house? But it was also driven by Rush Limbaugh, so, I’m not really sure?)

    Which, in turn broke, your party so badly that you eventually got hijacked by idiots.

    And it also had the incident on a side effect of most of the youth who grew up watching that, or grew up later, rejecting you firmly, because you were a bunch of unbending fanatics.Report

    • Pinky in reply to DavidTC says:

      Hey, maybe you’d like to tell us what positive things that conservatives were conserving that were rebelled against in the 1960s?

      The dominant issue in the 1960’s was anti-capitalism, both at home and abroad. Sexual and race liberation followed, as components within the anti-capitalist framework. Liberation of the mind was third. It’s strange to talk about today, but Marx was everywhere. Hatred toward the family, toward religion, toward the country, in the name of Marxism.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to Pinky says:

        The dominant issue in the 1960’s was anti-capitalism, both at home and abroad. Sexual and race liberation followed, as components within the anti-capitalist framework.

        Oh, we’re actually talking about _real_ things today instead of pretend history? Okay!

        You are absolutely correct: Both political parties, under the control of capital, _did_ oppose stopping race and _female_ liberation (1). That was actually what the 60s were about. And, in a somewhat different way, why flappers existed in the 20s.

        Because conservatism is mostly synonymous with ‘people who currently own a bunch of capital’, because conservatism basically exists to protect capital and to keep ‘the wrong people’ (Aka, everyone who isn’t them.) from getting it, and, yes, that definition of conservationism includes a hell of a lot of elected Democrats under it all.

        I’m pretty sure this isn’t how _you_ understand things, so I’d love to know why _you_ think capitalism was against race and female liberation. Or…were the hippies just wrong, and capitalism was fine with that, and somehow hadn’t managed to make it happen because some other, presumably different, people opposed it?

        1) No, I’m not letting you switch the discussion to sexual liberation. I said ‘sexism’, and meant ‘oppression of women to the extent they were basically property’, not ‘lack of sexual freedom’. OTOH, maybe you actually meant that and just said it in a weird way.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

          ” conservatism is mostly synonymous with ‘people who currently own a bunch of capital’,”

          lol

          it’s funny how dorks like you just use “conservative” to mean literally anyone you don’t like

          “conservatives are the wealthy! and the capital! and the high-income! and the low-income! and the middle-income suburban! and the tech industry! and the uneducated! and the middle-educated!”Report

          • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

            I didn’t say that conservatives were mostly wealthy, I said conservativISM is synonymous with the desires of the wealthy. ConservativISM is mostly aimed by them.

            This doesn’t have anything to do with who consegatiIVES are, aka, the people who support conservatISM. It is entirely possible, actually pretty likely, for people to support a political philosophy that they are not in charge of.Report