On “Nice” Liberals and “Mean” Conservatives
I got a lot of responses to my article about reaching out to the younger generation and encouraging it to at least consider conservative ideas. One of the most interesting came from a Twitter follow of mine who’s a whippersnapper but also whip smart: For his generation, conservatives are the mean and nasty ones while the liberals are nice and compassionate. Many young people might have nuanced views on wokery and cultural liberalism, but if pressed, they’d rather be woke than wankers.
It’s an understandable and logical position to take. Even if you’re the type to have doubts about child transgender surgery or general libertinism, if you’re young you’re at the age when peers matter more than anything (spending so much of your time in school or hanging out with them, including peers of differing ethnic backgrounds or sexual orientations) and who wants to lose friends and create drama over silly stuff? Besides, who wants to be like the parents you’re often rebelling against, let alone those icky Boomers who keep saying mean things about all of us?
To this, we can add the natural and generally healthy desire of many young people to make the world a better place – with most cultural institutions insisting that cultural hyperliberalism and wokery being the way to do it – and it’s possible to see how this makes liberalism attractive and conservatism, with its image of being nasty killjoys, not even an option.
I am inevitably painting with a broad brush here – any generation of tens of millions of people will contain a great deal of variety in terms of family background, education, religious levels, peers, &c – but I think we have enough reporting and polling and voting data from a lot of sources and places to presume this picture very roughly or broadly correct.
* * *
Before we break down the arguments, it’s important to always remember that none of this is all that new. Modern conservatives and liberals have been accusing each other of being heartless reactionaries and utopian maniacs ever since democratic politics started to become a thing. I invite readers to read the sort of vicious, often deeply personal invective they hurled at each other in election time in any given country and then tell me with a straight face that politics is particularly nasty today in terms of content or attacks.
So…what changed?
For a start, and I know this sounds hard to believe, but conservative values of one form or another used to be quite popular across generations. Stuff like lifting yourself up by your own effort and initiative (“lift yourself up by your bootstraps”), respecting your elders’ wisdom and the importance of at least some traditions, staying out of trouble, &c were things that people at least paid homage to, even if they didn’t always heed them themselves. It’s the homage that hypocrites often paid to virtue, and when conservatives spoke in favor of it, even those who didn’t personally live that way conceded they should.
Over time, thanks to a whole series of changes including technological and economic shifts as well as cultural rebellions (the 1920s, 1960s, 1990s), those ideas were weakened or entirely dropped over time. This left and continues to leave conservatives of positive things they can espouse and encourage in a way that means much to current generations, at least without a cultural revival of some sort.
On the flip side, what I would call the Progressive-liberal approach to life, based at least ostensibly in science and total human autonomy, and suspicious and even contemptuous of old ways, has been gaining strength for over a century. So thorough is this victory that even rightwingers often sound very libertarian and skeptical of the idea of any sort of universal morality outside of increasingly strained readings of the rule of “do no harm.”
The pinnacle of this is the complete triumph of therapeutic language in culture. Being nice and respectful to fellow citizens at a basic level is of course a necessary condition of healthy democratic life. In any democracy, people will disagree on a lot of things, including on how to live, so a baseline level of “agreeing to disagree” and be prepared to work together on shared projects is necessary for the whole thing to work. On this, liberals were and are right – at least some forms of prejudice or discrimination often keep out talented citizens who can and do contribute to the commonweal and the efforts use to shut out whole swathes of citizens undermine the effort to form a greater whole.
But therapeutic language and culture takes this much further. Democratic etiquette is about cordial and polite behavior while still allowing for dissent and disagreement, even raucous disagreement. But in the world of therapy, anything and everything can be so dangerous for someone’s psyche (the modern term for “soul”) that disagreement can and must be minimized or indeed eliminated. It is compared to actual physical “violence” for a reason – in an inversion of John Stuart Mill’s Harm Principle, intended to be minimal and allowing for maximal speech, now any speech can be considered harm.
The result is what I would call a precautionary principle of argument: If it might hurt someone’s feelings (and it is always assumed that this can reach the level of actual trauma), then it will and you should be silent. For the sake of democratic peace, you must now not only agree with whatever anyone seen to be vulnerable says, but must indeed accept that their truth is effectively truth as far as you are concerned. This is a hyper-individualistic approach to life, very appealing to young people who are seeking their place in the world, and encouraged by adults who, out of compassion and seemingly good intentions, wish to encourage.
Why “Nice” Isn’t Always “Good”
Conservative skepticism and sometimes opposition to all this, no matter how it’s said, thus seems cruel and callous. But deep down, we reactionary troglodytes have very good reason to not like this new state of affairs, even when we still very much agree with the baseline argument of fair and equal treatment of citizens.
For a start, as the late Peter Lawler noted, the “nice” we’re talking about is a “corporate nice.” It sounds as fake and manufactured as any corporate PR effort, a cynical or profoundly misguided attempt to *seem* well-intentioned rather than actually being so. So many HR and DEI presentations in favor of changing words sound like what the author thinks is a good idea and genuine etiquette rather than something most people outside this professional bubble consider so. It’s largely pretending to be virtuous rather than being so.
Furthermore, we conservatives have repeatedly warned that good intentions are simply not enough and indeed are often counterproductive.
Defund the police sounds nice until you realize that the alternatives are worse and more destructive for the very minority communities you’re trying to help (and who want reformed cops, not no cops). Reducing school standards for the disadvantaged not only sends those kids out into the world unprepared for any real challenge, but even implicitly declares agreement with outright bigots that they can’t actually do any better. Massive subsidy of often exorbitant student loans or not reforming entitlements at all seems good and compassionate until you realize that the math is what it is, no matter how much we want it to be otherwise. There were and are many more such examples.
Acting nice is too often cheap, and even free. It’s almost literally lip service. Instead of the hard work of trying to provide people with lasting help and purpose, and instead of doing the hard work of deciding between usually imperfect options for complicated problems, the folks with the cultural power and the idealistic young people go in search of ghosts or hunting down anything that might possibly make someone uncomfortable at some time, often making far more people uncomfortable as they engage in one struggle session after another. It’s a recipe for more anxiety and uncertainty, not less.
On Facts and Feelings
But the truth must also be said that the conservative reaction to all this is often counterproductive and sometimes downright stupid.
Take the famous or perhaps infamous slogan “Facts Don’t Care About Your Feelings.” This is ostensibly the decisive rebuttal to the idea that public and private life needs to constantly be based solely on gut instinct and emotion rather than cold, hard realities, which we navigate as best we can. And there’s much truth to this.
But it errs in two ways.
The first is making it personal. Saying “your feelings” makes the whole thing seem like a personal attack, one which even in the pre-therapeutic age would have led to a fistfight or duel or even a grudge. It’s guaranteed to fail. The truth is that facts, to the extent we can discern them, don’t care about our feelings. They certainly don’t care about mine, either. Instead of convincing everyone that we’re all in this together to make a better future, it just comes off as bullying for its own sake.
The second is the strange disregarding of feelings. Feelings and sentiments are important, even if they don’t determine external reality. The Declaration itself spoke of the importance of the “pursuit of happiness” and many other thinkers and movements in democratic history thought in this vein, each defining happiness in different ways. Reacting to therapeutic culture by seemingly declaring we should all be unfeeling hyper-rational robots is to take away a big part of what makes us human, and usually in a good way, and goes against the core principles of America itself.
This all brings us back to what I said earlier: Conservatives don’t really aspire to stuff anymore or promise positive visions. Once upon a time, conservative politicians culture warred with the best of them, but they did so in combination with genuine alternative visions for the future – economic, social, even spiritual. Nixon, Reagan, W, HW all spoke of aspiration and the future and values to be preserved; Wallace and Perot did not, and crashed and burned for that reason. They offered their voters not only something to conserve but also something they could make their own.
At least since the rise of Trump and maybe before, this hasn’t been the case. Yes, sometimes we hear of freedom in the abstract but never any direction or recipe for using that freedom. Donald Trump and his following is something almost unheard of – grievance without any aspiration, despair without any hope, revenge without any thought of rebuilding. It’s a conservatism that has given up entirely on the idea that there is anything worth conserving, only a world so fallen that all that is left is to launch (often effective and correct!) critiques of the world now dominated by progressives and liberals.
* * *
My point, then, is not that conservatives are meaner today than they were in my parents’ generation or before (same for liberals). They probably aren’t. Rather, far too many conservatives today seem to have nothing in their arsenal but complaints, no matter how legitimate.
All young people aspire to something better. We offer them nothing. Before any talk about specific tone and ways to make arguments, that needs to change. Yesterday.
There’s a lot to think about in this article. I hope the comments section gets really active. My first thought is that conservatives (a) don’t have a religious framework like we used to, (b) have one but don’t talk about it, and/or (c) talk about it but aren’t heard. I guess I should have included something in there about how some don’t really have a religious framework but talk like they do, but I was more thinking about what the barriers are to the communication of one.
As for “facts don’t care about your feelings”, I always saw it as a poorly-worded or cutely-worded declaration that the subjective doesn’t change the objective. I think about how we’ve gone from “it’s ok if you think you’re a woman” to “it’s illegal for me to call you a man” and I do consider it a really important point.Report
“Facts don’t care about your feelings! And my feelings are facts!“Report
I read this from my own liberal point of view and felt a strange comingling of mild exasperation and a strange pity despite the fact that the article is well written and Avi presents his positions solidly.
Like, if liberalism and conservativism were houses then I feel like Avi, having been evicted from Chez” Right”, is standing, haggard in a rather disheveled state, with his statuette of Buckley and his Reagan portrait laying on the ground around him with his luggage, bowtie and shoes. He stands with his Road to Serfdom autographed copy clutched trembling under his arm for safe keeping. As the flames shoot out of the upstairs windows of the Conservative house behind him and the whoops and howls of his co-rightists ring out, Avi strokes his chin, looks across the street at Chez Liberalism and casts a skeptical eye on the pool house on the far-left side of “Chez Liberals” where the social justice set have erected a very “woke” and, admissibly, a rather visually loud mural which includes a loud squawking blue bird shaped speaker, also some of those residents have set up a barbeque and it’s smoking vigerously. Avi talks somberly about the relative “meanness” of the two respective households ignoring the vague confused glances of the many rather boring looking liberals going in and out of the main annex of “Chez Liberals” with their Biden pins to the left of their blue ties. Meanwhile the boys from Claremont pull into the driveway of “Chez Right” with their speakers blaring and it looks like they brought a keg and several boxes of spirits with them. The flames and shrieks behind grow louder behind Avi and cast his shadow, long and dark, across the street as he frowns and considers the relative merits of his conservativism and how it measures against the ideals of the folks in Chez Liberal’s pool house as if the rest of the house doesn’t exist.
It’s utterly irrational of me. I feel like I should go offer a blanket and some cocoa and ask if there’s someone I can call for him. Though I suppose the kind thing to do would be to lean on the fence around the front yard of Chez Right and engage Avi on the terms he’s discussing it just feels… silly. Like a somewhat non-sequitur thing to do.Report
You offered a great visual of what it feels like to observe someone like Avi in their impossible conundrum. But we could be objective about it. There has been a vast amount of social science research at this point. We don’t need to speculate. For the most part, we understand what is going on and what it all means.
There is strong correlations between conservatism, right-wing authoritarianism, social dominance orientation, collective narcissism, orderliness, conventionalism, traditionalism, need for closure, need for certainty, low tolerance for cognitive dissonance, etc. And simultaneously low rates of openness to experience, intellect, fluid intelligence, original problem solving, pattern recognition, cognitive flexibility, perspective taking, cognitive empathy, willingness to forgive, etc.
There is a reason that these right-wing mentalities increase under conditions of stress, particularly chronic stress and perceived threat: trauma, sickliness (parasite load, pathogen exposure, etc), high inequality, dominance hierarchies, etc. The conditions that promote right-wing mentalities is not a happy and healthy place to be. Even those on the left become more conservative-minded under these oppressive conditions. Why would anyone willingly choose this?Report
It’s all very well to talk about “nice” and “mean” but meanwhile, my daughter is never going to visit the State of Texas again because of the treatment she received there. (She is trans) Is that “woke”? Is that “nice”? This is not hypothetical, it is something that happened. To her. And to me.
These things are highly personal to us and very meaningful. It is more than a little bit irritating to have it glibly discussed as “woke”.
I endorse the idea that sometimes doing “good” does not involve being “nice”. Is there something “good” about Gov. Abbot’s initiatives against trans persons? Does it express love? compassion? It looks like a political performance to me, with no value whatsoever as policy, other than “Ewww, get those icky trans people out of my face”.
I did not read you whole piece and I am sorry for that. It’s just that I am so sick of having personal intimate details of my family’s life being discussed in such an offhand way.
And if you are going to play the “It’s just her feelings” card….We’re done. You don’t know anything about it. Try presenting yourself as the opposite gender for even a full week with no relief, no time outs, and see how exhausting it is. That’s what every trans person has to do every day without end, until they transition.
I’m not here to argue about this. I’m here to bear witness. I am very likely to not respond to replies, just so y’all know.Report
I had a conversation the other day about whether Republicans will ever regain the queer vote, like they could hypothetically do with Hispanics, or whether it’s more like the Black vote in that they can never ever recover it.
Spoiler alert: it’s the latter.
They have, very casually and with no concern whatsoever, cause incalculable harm to various queer people, and the community talks. There are literally refugees, families who have had to flee certain states because otherwise their children could be taken away. Republicans don’t seem to understand this is happening.
The joke was, before all this transphobia showed up, Republicans probably could have regained things. Yes, they blocked gay marriage, but that was recoverable, because honestly a lot of Democrats did too, and the Dem party itself barely got on board with it before The Supreme Court legalized that it and made it a non-issue.
Republicans could have, decades later, just sort of been ‘yeah, we were a little late to the game on that, but we’re fully in favor of it now’.
Nope. Not anymore. They have permanently made the Republican brand toxic to yet another percentage of the population, a percentage that will never ever ever vote for them.Report
People like Andrew Sullivan and Caitlyn Jenner demonstrate that there doesn’t really need to be any such thing as the “queer vote”, unless the Republicans choose to create it.
LGBTQ people, like all people are spread out all across the political spectrum and prioritize a lot of different issues.
But like all people their top priority is “Not being arrested/fired/socially reviled ” and they will in the end vote accordingly.
Sullivan and Jenner are banking on the idea that their wealth and prominence will save them but for the other 95% of LGBTQ people the seething contempt of the Republicans seems pretty clear.Report
I think I’ve mentioned this before here, and honestly I’m thinking of actually writing some sort of primer on LGBTQ stuff and seeing if I can get it as an article here, but there are two conflicting positions, two different end goals, in the queer community WRT to society: Assimilation vs. Liberation. And without understanding that there are two different things, it’s _extremely_ hard to understand any sort of LGBTQ political stuff.
.
Basically, assimilation is ‘As a group, LGBTQ people should end up looking like cishet people except with some small variations. Those variations should be considered normal.’, and liberation is says ‘As a group, LGBTQ people should look like whatever the hell we want to look like. It is not our job to change ourselves in the slightest to fit in.’. And there’s a whole bunch of stuff that goes from there that I’m not going to get into in a comment. It’s literally a 70 year old debate at this point.
Sullivan and Jenner are the most extreme assimilation position, the actual _traitor_ assimilation position that says ‘Look, I assimilated, everyone now says I’m normal, and everyone weirder than me can just FOAD, they’re making me look bad.’Report
To be fair to the Right, much of the Further Left, the type that cringes at wine moms visibly, also hates the niceness of liberalism. The niceness of modern liberalism comes from the fact that it is trying to inclusive and positive combined with the fact that liberalism always saw humans as being of reason and that a well-crafted argument as convincing and transformative power. On the other blog, I talk about how not very online liberals and leftists tend to believe in what I call Secret Disney Liberalism. This is the belief that deep down nearly every human is decent and with the right education and exposure, the true decent nature of all humans will shine forth. I am too much of a pessimist to believe this but it is a relatively common belief among my fellow liberals.Report
My take is a lot like North’s, but I would illustrate it more like that Avi is one of those turn of the century Russian Marxists who cheered the rise of Trotsky and Lenin, and were rewarded with a bullet to the head. Or maybe one of the Chinese cadres who marched with Mao on the Long March and for their trouble were beaten and paraded in public by the Red Guards.
They had no idea what they were dealing with, and I don’t think Avi does either.
In a couple of Republican states now it is illegal to use a textbook if it might offend the feelings of white students. It wasn’t young people who did this, it was old people, old people who are wearing the armband of Conservatism and goosestepping under the banner of Trump.
Republicans are intending to hang women who have abortions, and stand by with arms crossed while women with miscarriages or complications writhe in agony to the point of death.
Republicans are willing to force a 10 year old girl to deliver her rapists baby on the grounds she is old enough to be a fit mother, while denying her access to gender affirming care on the grounds she is too young to know what she is doing, and after delivery, refusing to accept free federal assistance that might help the young mother.
Republican Senators in North Dakota voted themselves fat meal reimbursements from the public treasury, while refusing to give lunches to hungry children.
In Tennessee they sneer at young people who march and plead with them for protection against being murdered in school, then expel and try to silence a legislator who dares to challenge them peacefully.
The battleground in 2023 has nothing whatsoever to do with niceness or hurt feelings or hyperindividualism or complex ideas about libertinism. The battle is between democracy and authoritarianism, tolerance and bigotry, human rights and barbaric tribalism.Report
Ari’s problem is that he is basically one of maybe a handful of sincere philosophical conservatives who really did think it was all about whatever Oakeshot wrote about and he just doesn’t want to give that up.Report
Honestly, that’s the problem of half the conservatives here, they are operating in reality that never actually existed.
Conservative philosophy, for all the many many books and papers and everything that have been written laying out a semi coherent system, was always a paper thing covering that these super Rich plastered over their actual philosophy that was mainly to enrich them by stirring up resentment by lower classes against Others.
We have some conservatives here who realize this, and we have some who sort of haven’t yet.Report
I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this piece. I’ll first note the three straw men he levies against the left: “Defund the Police” was a poster and slogan during the height of the race tensions of the summer of 2020. It was not and never will be a policy of Democrats, who would rather reform and redirect funds to serve these communities better. No matter, conservatives will hammer the left with the phrase well into the 2050’s. Second, it’s Republicans not Democrats who have been deliberately destroying public schools with homeschooling, Charter schools and now vouchers. Third, squaring the balance sheets of our entitlement programs is as easy as turning up the tax knob. Everyone knows these things, but conservatives will never address the root causes or the real solutions and instead always, as here, turns the issue into one of culture and values.
The core of the modern Republican party, and thus Conservatism, came together in the 1980’s as an wannbe-holy alliance of hard-core religious reconstructionists with their ant-abortion and anti-LGTBQ agenda, right-libertarians living-free-or-dying and big business, particularly finance and resource extraction industries, whose pitchmen served as the public face “moderate republicans” of the sort I suspect the author counts himself.
I also suspect that quite a lot of the howling about cancel culture and “woke” is really that the third leg of that stool is running for the hills now that the religious fanatics and the anti-democracy crowd have fully taken over the Republican Party.
It’s difficult to engage with pieces like this because it’s about feelings and language. But also, since I don’t have a problem with addressing people in the third person by the pronoun they prefer, I tend to view most debates on “woke” and “cancel culture” to be apologetics for haters. I’m not accusing Mr. Woolf, but I just don’t see the utility of this type of analysis. It’s all just smokescreen unless you’re being honest about what the politics of the Republican party is doing to the country right now.
But I do agree with his conclusion: Conservative ideology doesn’t have anything to offer, especially to young people. The single biggest threat to them, before Dobbs and Red State Legislators came at them and their families directly, is climate change. And getting shot at school. Or the supermarket.
They can’t afford homes. They’re being told up front that at any chance Republicans get, rather than fix entitlements with easy fixes that require a bit of sacrifice from high-earning fat-cats, they’re just going to turn that entitlement money over to those same fat-cats to gamble with. And make them work a couple of extra years to get at it.
Conservatism failed because not only because it has no solutions though, it failed because it believes the solution to every problem is to look to the past.Report
“It was not and never will be a policy of Democrats”
heheh
first: “Defund The Police!”
next: “well you have to understand that we don’t mean ‘total elimination of all law-enforcement’ we just mean ‘dismantle the existing structure of entrenched racism and replace it with a totally-new organization that will definitely not have the problems because we’ll make sure to have everyone fill out a form that says ‘ARE YOU RACIST Y/N’ and anyone who checks ‘Y’ isn’t allowed to be part of it”
now: “Defund the Police? pffft, nobody ever said that…”
“conservatives will never address the root causes or the real solutions and instead always, as here, turns the issue into one of culture and values.”
you’re honestly here suggesting that it’s only conservatives who talk of culture and values
although actually you’re right, but not how you think you are
because it’s important to remember that since about 2012, queer acceptance is a conservative positionReport
That last paragraph of yours is utter nonsense. I don’t mean it’s wrong, I mean it is actual nonsense, in that you are using the word conservative in a different way than this conversation is using it and thinking that it’s a gotcha.Report
nope
queer acceptance is a conservative position
you need to break free of your socially-conditioned response, carefully cultivated to fit in with your only available friend group, that “conservative” is a synonym for “Republican” is a synonym for “older white suburban low-income cishet racist misogynist transphobe”Report
Are you attempting to assert that conservative means something besides Republican?
To be blunt, why would I even care?
See, I know Republicans are reactionary, not conservative, but that literally doesn’t matter because _everyone in politics_ who identifies as conservative is meaning reactionary Republican.
And we are, in fact, having a political discussion.Report
One might argue that any conservative who isn’t reactionary isn’t really a conservative at all. At this point, American conservatives at least are simply reacting to new forms of liberalism by co-opting old forms of liberalism. There hasn’t been a respectable conservatism distinct from liberalism since the the classic conservatives were made illegitimate in having lost the American Civil War.Report
I would like to bring up an old tale from 2018: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/scaachikoul/california-college-republicans-milo-yiannopoulos-donald
College Republicans at the University of California needed a new jefe. One candidate running was a full on own the libz troll. The other candidate wanted the College Republicans to be a kind of moderate Governator or Michael Bloomberg technocratic kind of place. Guess who won easily? The own the libz troll!!!
You post these essays every few weeks or months and it is always astonishing to me how it just never sinks in that old-school high minded philosophical conservatism was never as popular as its adherents imagined. Stop trying to make Oakeshot happen.
As to why kids are not so into conservatism these days, how can you blame them. The GOP refuses to do anything reasonably sensible on gun control, they are rabidly anti-abortion, they don’t care about climate change because they will be dead when it gets really bad and sucks to be you, they are transphobic, homophobic, and then just troll instead of engaging in honest debate. They debate in bad faith.Report
It was basically zero popular. All that high-minded stuff was just so they’d have something to put in philosophy books.
The actual movement, as understood by the voters, was always rooted in fighting against The Other, even if the people at the top had managed to fool themselves. That’s why Trump was able to hijack the whole thing so easily, he threw away all the thin justifications.Report
My conservative and Republican father is not only a highly educated intellectual who regularly reads scholarly books but a professor. He is also of the oldest generation in power, the Silent Generation. He remembers the era that many conservatives claim as the high point of this respectable conservatism. Yet my father has never heard of the likes of Oakeshott. It’s an extremely rare conservative who could name even one supposedly high-minded, respectable, and moderate conservative intellectual.Report
I’m inclined to agree with the assessment that the modern conservative movement doesn’t have anything to sell (other than opposition to things) and that this is a big reason why it’s struggling to attract youth voters, but I do also think this essay is pretty hasty in its attempts to show a rationale for conservative opposition. All examples given are pretty ridiculous straw men. I think this severely undercuts the overall point that’s being made.Report
Opposition to things has been the raison d’etre of conservatism since it began centuries ago. There is nothing else to it than reacting to present liberalism and leftism while co-opting old rhetoric, including old liberal and leftist rhetoric.Report
One of the go-to moves of “smart” political television in the olden days was have the cranky conservative technocrat character make a prediction that the best-laid plans of the progressive character would fail and then, for a handful of reasons, have the progressive character’s plans fail.
Progressive character could later be found in a conference room (if female, crying but not ugly crying). Cranky conservative comes in sits down and there is a minor moment of bonding. Sympathy is offered, a story from the cranky conservative’s youth comes up… as it turns out, he used to believe things too! It’s just that after enough things failed, he went pragmatist. He’s not *MEAN*… he just wants things to work!
Wow. They learn about each other. “Maybe I should have a better bedside manner”, the conservative says. The progressive really appreciates it.
Credits.Report
(although due to syndication, that moment results in no permanent changes in attitude and is never brought up by either character ever again)Report
Okay, this is totally anecdotal, but the way I remember it, pre-9/11, was that conservatives were stern old fuddy duddies who could be killjoys, while liberals were namby-pambys who were too soft when it came to bad people. One type was too pessimistic and one was too optimistic, but if you get down to it, all of us are a little liberal and a little conservative, aren’t we? Now, I was fairly young and probably basing this too much on what my Reagan Republican parents thought, but it was sort of a grudging you-make-a-me-so-crazy-but-we-need-each-other! sort of thing.
At the time, Rush Limbaugh seemed like a totally new thing because he really did go for the jugular with liberals. My parents loved Reagan and found Rush too strident and abrasive. But I think his influence was arguably more significant in the long run.
But, after 9/11 is when I remember hearing the stuff about how liberals were *really* conspiring with the enemies of America, and conservatives were *really* trying to end democracy. It really did flip, it seems to me, and I don’t think it’s ever changed back to anything like a normal discourse.
Which, it occurs to me, was partly why this site got launched. To aim for a normal discussion.Report
Hey, maybe you’d like to tell us what positive things that conservatives were conserving that were rebelled against in the 1960s? Something about racism or was it sexism, or maybe both of those, I don’t remember.
And hell, I know it’s kind of old and no one remembers, but what were flappers rebelling against? Why, it appears to be the incredibly restrictive rules that women were required to live under before that.
Huh, weird, it looks in both cases it was conservatives who were fighting for huge sections of society to not have rights. Weird how that appears to turn vast majority of people off, good thing you’ve stopped doing that, oh wait, you’re still going after queer people. Oopsie.
As for the ’90s? There was not a cultural rebellion in the 90s. Yes, the youth acted like youth, which they had always done, and eventually always grew out of.
What happened in the ’90s is you guys decided to start pandering to far right media, allowing them to dictate who real conservatives were, resulting in the primary of everyone who wasn’t the farthest right as humanly possible. (I don’t know, maybe this is what you mean by technological changes, because it really was driven by Fox News, which previously would not have been able to reach every house? But it was also driven by Rush Limbaugh, so, I’m not really sure?)
Which, in turn broke, your party so badly that you eventually got hijacked by idiots.
And it also had the incident on a side effect of most of the youth who grew up watching that, or grew up later, rejecting you firmly, because you were a bunch of unbending fanatics.Report
Hey, maybe you’d like to tell us what positive things that conservatives were conserving that were rebelled against in the 1960s?
The dominant issue in the 1960’s was anti-capitalism, both at home and abroad. Sexual and race liberation followed, as components within the anti-capitalist framework. Liberation of the mind was third. It’s strange to talk about today, but Marx was everywhere. Hatred toward the family, toward religion, toward the country, in the name of Marxism.Report
Oh, we’re actually talking about _real_ things today instead of pretend history? Okay!
You are absolutely correct: Both political parties, under the control of capital, _did_ oppose stopping race and _female_ liberation (1). That was actually what the 60s were about. And, in a somewhat different way, why flappers existed in the 20s.
Because conservatism is mostly synonymous with ‘people who currently own a bunch of capital’, because conservatism basically exists to protect capital and to keep ‘the wrong people’ (Aka, everyone who isn’t them.) from getting it, and, yes, that definition of conservationism includes a hell of a lot of elected Democrats under it all.
I’m pretty sure this isn’t how _you_ understand things, so I’d love to know why _you_ think capitalism was against race and female liberation. Or…were the hippies just wrong, and capitalism was fine with that, and somehow hadn’t managed to make it happen because some other, presumably different, people opposed it?
1) No, I’m not letting you switch the discussion to sexual liberation. I said ‘sexism’, and meant ‘oppression of women to the extent they were basically property’, not ‘lack of sexual freedom’. OTOH, maybe you actually meant that and just said it in a weird way.Report
” conservatism is mostly synonymous with ‘people who currently own a bunch of capital’,”
lol
it’s funny how dorks like you just use “conservative” to mean literally anyone you don’t like
“conservatives are the wealthy! and the capital! and the high-income! and the low-income! and the middle-income suburban! and the tech industry! and the uneducated! and the middle-educated!”Report
I didn’t say that conservatives were mostly wealthy, I said conservativISM is synonymous with the desires of the wealthy. ConservativISM is mostly aimed by them.
This doesn’t have anything to do with who consegatiIVES are, aka, the people who support conservatISM. It is entirely possible, actually pretty likely, for people to support a political philosophy that they are not in charge of.Report