Wednesday Writs: Rape and The Death Penalty in Coker v Georgia
WW1: “Although rape deserves serious punishment, the death penalty, which is unique in its severity and irrevocability, is an excessive penalty for the rapist who, as such and as opposed to the murderer, does not unjustifiably take human life.”
Doesn’t he, though?
Concededly, the victim of a “mere” rape does not die, as in her heart continues beating and she continues breathing. But her life, such as it was, may end, replaced by a new life profoundly marred by the experience. Her trajectory in life may change, or come to a sudden halt. Things she enjoyed — safety, hope, the desire for human touch, happiness — may be gone. Or not; it’s subjective, really. Just as not all stab wounds are fatal.
Non-fatal stab wounds will not earn the perpetrator a death sentence, no matter how severe the injury, and neither will a non-fatal rape. The Supreme Court said so in 1977 in Coker v Georgia, our case of the week and source of that opening quote.
The defendant, Ehrlich Coker, escaped from prison, where he was serving 3 life sentences for rape, kidnapping, first degree murder, and assault. While on the loose, he broke into the home of Alan of Elnita Carver. He tied up Mr. Carver, brandished a knife, and raped Mrs. Carver. He then made her leave with him in the Carvers’ car. Mrs. Carver managed to escape and went to the police, who captured Coker soon after. “Mrs. Carver was unharmed,” per the SCOTUS opinion I will get to shortly.
An insanity defense was rejected by the jury, who convicted Coker of escape, armed robbery, motor vehicle theft, kidnaping, and rape. During the sentencing phase, the jury was instructed to consider whether aggravated circumstances existed to justify the death penalty under Georgia law, including whether the defendant had previous felony convictions and whether the rape occurred during the commission of other “capital felonies”, such as armed robbery. Even if the jury found these factors existed, they were free to consider mitigating circumstances and spare the defendant’s life. The jury did not feel the need to do so and sentenced Coker to death, which at that time in Georgia meant the electric chair.
Coker’s appeals were denied, and the sole question left for SCOTUS to consider was whether the death penalty in rape cases violated the 8th Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment. The decision was 7-2, with the plurality opinion written by Justice Byron White and joined by Justices Stewart, Blackmun and Stevens. White first dispensed with any inquiry into the constitutionality of the death penalty in general, that question having been thoroughly litigated that same decade. 1972’s Furman v. Georgia held the death penalty unconstitutional as applied in three consolidated cases, which led to a moratorium on executions throughout the country. The problem with Furman was that while 5 of 9 justices found the death penalty unconstitutional in those three cases, there was no agreement as to why. Each justice wrote separately to explain his rationale. As such, there was no plurality except a short per curiam bereft of analysis, giving states no guidance as to how the death penalty could be constitutionally imposed, if at all. The uncertainty resulted in a nationwide moratorium on executions1.
In 1976 in Gregg v Georgia, the Court set out guidelines for the imposition of capital punishment, finding that executions by the state were not per se unconstitutional, if correctly applied. One of the Gregg considerations was whether the punishment is excessive in proportion to the crime. It is excessive if it (1) makes no measurable contribution to acceptable goals of punishment, and hence is nothing more than the purposeless and needless imposition of pain and suffering; or (2) is grossly out of proportion to the severity of the crime. If either of these guidelines apply, then the sentence is unconstitutional.
Justice White wrote that these factors should not be left at the mercy of the subjective whims of the judiciary but “informed by subjective factors.” To decide whether rape was violative of these guidelines the court looked both to history and to the prevailing attitudes in the country at the time. The Court noted that post-Furman, only 3 states reinstated the death penalty for the crime of rape, down from 16 before Furman. Of those 3 states, 2 had already revised their statutes again and removed rape from the list of capital crimes, leaving Georgia the only hold out.
Georgia pointed out that 11 states had enacted statutes after Furman which made capital punishment mandatory, in an attempt to create consistency and less subjective sentencing. Georgia argued that these 11 states simply chose not to require the death penalty for every single rape conviction. However, the Court pointed out that most states which enacted new capital punishment statutes that did not include mandatory sentences also did not include rape of an adult. In addition, once mandatory death sentencing was struck down in Roberts v Louisiana and Woodson v North Carolina, states which previously had mandatory death sentencing revised their statutes and still did not include rape as a capital crime. In sum, Georgia was, at the time, the only state which still permitted the death penalty for the rape of an adult (Florida and Mississippi still permitted execution for adults convicted of raping a child.)
In addition to the evident widespread disfavor by state legislatures for capital punishment of rapists, the Court looked at the prevalence of death verdicts by juries. Justice White noted that of the 63 rape convictions reviewed by the Georgia Supreme Court between 1973 and then, only 6 defendants had been sentenced to death. While admitting that this was not enough to prove that execution was per se a disproportionate sentence for rape, it weighed strongly in favor of the idea.
The Court then stated baldly that in its collective judgment, rape was simply not worthy of death.
Rape is without doubt deserving of serious punishment; but in terms of moral depravity and of the injury to the person and to the public, it does not compare with murder, which does involve the unjustified taking of human life… The murderer kills; the rapist, if no more than that, does not. Life is over for the victim of the murderer; for the rape victim, life may not be nearly so happy as it was, but it is not over, and normally is not beyond repair.
The fact that the defendant had similar violent felonies in his history and was engaged in other forceful felonies when he raped Mrs. Carver did not alter the Court’s decision: a rapist who leaves a living victim is not deserving of death.
Justices Brennan and Marshall concurred, and each wrote a single paragraph reiterating their belief that the death penalty is unconstitutional in all cases, consistent with their views set forth in Furman.
Justice Powell concurred as to the circumstances of the case at bar, but dissented from the plurality’s view that rape alone can never warrant capital punishment:
The deliberate viciousness of the rapist may be greater than that of the murderer. Rape is never an act committed accidentally. Rarely can it be said to be unpremeditated. There also is wide variation in the effect on the victim. The plurality opinion says that “[l]ife is over for the victim of the murderer; for the rape victim, life may not be nearly so happy as it was, but it is not over and normally is not beyond repair.” But there is indeed “extreme variation” in the crime of rape. Some victims are so grievously injured physically or psychologically that life is beyond repair.
Chief Justice Berger and Justice Rehnquist dissented, opining that the Court had overstepped by substituting its judgment and belief for that of the state legislature. Berger concedes that there are crimes too minor to warrant the death penalty, but does not find rape to fit the category of a minor crime. Berger then adds some background to Coker’s case:
On December 5, 1971, the petitioner, Ehrlich Anthony Coker, raped and then stabbed to death a young woman. Less than eight months later, Coker kidnaped and raped a second young woman. After twice raping this 16-year-old victim, he stripped her, severely beat her with a club, and dragged her into a wooded area where he left her for dead.
These were some of the crimes for which Coker was imprisoned when he escaped and attacked Mrs. Carver and her husband. Berger also points out that Mrs. Carver was 16 years old when Coker raped her, and had given birth a mere 3 weeks prior.
Because Coker was already serving 3 life sentences for his 1971 crimes, reasoned Berger, the Court’s decision means he will suffer no punishment for his crimes against the Carvers. Furthermore, the citizens of Georgia could not be assured that they would be protected from further victimization by violent serial rapists like Coker.
Berger implies he believes Coker deserves to die, and seems to suggest that the Court should use a case-by-case approach:
Unlike the plurality, I would narrow the inquiry in this case to the question actually presented: does the Eighth Amendment’s ban against cruel and unusual punishment prohibit the State of Georgia from executing a person who has, within the space of three years, raped three separate women, killing one and attempting to kill another, who is serving prison terms exceeding his probable lifetime, and who has not hesitated to escape confinement at the first available opportunity?
Berger asserts that the line drawing between the dead and not-dead victim has no basis in the constitution:
As a matter of constitutional principle, that test cannot have the primitive simplicity of “life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth.” Rather, States must be permitted to engage in a more sophisticated weighing of values in dealing with criminal activity which consistently poses serious danger of death or grave bodily harm.
What does Em think, you ask?
I am anti-capital punishment. This is not because I don’t believe it is always unjustified; some dangerous dogs definitely need to be put down. But because of the serious flaws in our system, I am confident that factually innocent people wind up on death row and in my view, one is one too many.
However, if the death penalty could be assured to always be applied only to the guilty, then I agree with Justice Berger that someone like Erlich Coker deserves it, even if he had left only living victims in his wake. Admittedly, some rapes are far more brutal and more violent than others. Likewise, some survivors recover more fully than others; human resiliency is amazing, but it spans a wide spectrum. It would be difficult to qualify or quantify the relative brutality of one rape to another, or the damage to one victim or another.
But juries have long been asked to make judgments on “aggravating factors;” the Coker jury did just that. Furthermore, the fact that of 63 rape convictions over 4 years in Georgia only 6 were sentenced to death shows that jurors are not eager to apply capital punishment. IF we could be assured that only the truly guilty would be convicted, I have faith in the ability of juries to weigh the circumstances and condemn only the most deserving.
WW2: A Nazi-era German law criminalizing homosexuality remained on the books — and “enthusiastially enforced” — until 1969. The country created a restitution fund for those affected by the law, and has paid out over the equivalent of a million dollars to 259 people. Convictions under the law were nullified in 2017.
WW3: I regret to inform you that Texas is at it again: Gov. Abbott signed a bill prohibiting large social media platforms from removing accounts or posts based on political views, and permits citizens to sue companies who do so. Opponents of the law say it is reverse censorship, requiring the companies to platform political ideas with which they disagree.
WW4: The Justice Department announced it will place new restrictions on the use of chokeholds and no-knock entries following a finding of a lack of clear written policies across federal law enforcement units.
WW5: In yet another horrific story from the VA, a 62 year old veteran went missing from his room at the Bedford VA hospital in Massachusetts. He was found a month later – 60 feet from his room, decomposing in a stairwell. The Department of Veterans Affairs has found that the hospital violated policies in its failed search for the man, Tim White.
Mr. White’s disappearance did not receive the attention it deserved from VA, an agency that is required by federal law to provide for the protection of all persons on its property,” the report says. The OIG found that the medical center, including its VA police, “did not initiate a response to Mr. White’s disappearance under VHA’s missing patients policy because he was considered a resident and not a patient.”
The report also notes how “poor decision-making, misinformation and lack of oversight also prevented anyone at VA from encountering Mr. White during the month after he was reported missing through routine patrols or cleaning of the emergency exit stairwell in which his body was found.
WW6: Breyer is well aware you want him to retire, and while he appears to have no plans to do so, he does say he doesn’t “intend to die [while] on the Court.”
WW7: Well, you have to hand it to this guy for trying: one of the Capitol Riot defendants, representing himself in his criminal proceedings, is demanding to be paid millions by the government for his legal services to himself. “You want to do business with me? These are my prices,” said Eric Bochene.
WW3: The easiest response would seem to be for the social media companies to shut down any servers that happen to be located in Texas. Literally, just pull the plugs on them and let everything fail over to servers elsewhere.Report
I’d actually like to see this get litigated. It would clear up a lot of what is and is not private company “rights” in the social media space. It might not be pretty, but it sure would be fun to watch Texas get repeatedly slapped by the courts over this.Report
[WW3] No business should ever be forced to promulgate speech it finds disagreeable!Report
But this isn’t about cakes & flowers & photo sessions!Report
You’re right, it’s only about the method that people use to participate in conversation with literally the entire world. Certainly it’s okay if the dudes running that system can delete your comments if they don’t like them (or if they don’t like you.) I mean, it’s not something important, like a cake.Report
one of the foundational principals of the US is that government actors can’t censor political speech but private actors can so long as they don’t libel anyone. If we are going to legally require private actors to put it all out there – regardless of impact or veracity – then we are in fact using government to regulate speech. Probably a bad idea on a lot of levels.Report
“Free Speech” is riddled with caveats and exceptions, for both government actors and private.
A cake shop is certainly free to refuse to print “F*@K” or misinformation about a pandemic.
If Twitter was just refusing to serve anyone who of a certain religion then they may have a point.Report
” If we are going to legally require private actors to put it all out there – regardless of impact or veracity – then we are in fact using government to regulate speech. ”
gonna screenshot this one for laterReport
Go ahead.
But am I wrong?Report
“But am I wrong?”
Oh, I’m not saying you are, but it’ll be amusing to watch you explain later how you didn’t actually mean the thing you said here.Report
It all goes back to lunch counters. No one has ever said a restaurant cannot remove a patron for being disruptive or rude or any number of other factors. What was decided is that restaurants cannot deny service to people simply based on race. Later these protected categories were expanded to include religion, gender, sexuality, etcetera. These are known as “protected classes.” They exist because of widespread prejudice.
No one objects to content providers banning spam accounts. Thus everyone agrees that content providers can ban people for being obnoxious and disruptive. The question becomes, is a political position more like “being disruptive” or more like a “protected class.”
Which brings us to bigotry and hate speech. Those who try to use principles designed to protect the targets of bigotry to instead protect the bigots themselves — that’s clearly messed up.
Which leads to the paradox. If someone is banned for expressing bigoted ideas, how should we respond when they claim they are being punished for having conservative ideas?
Two possibilities:
1. Conservative ideas are essentially bigoted.
2. Conservative ideas are not essentially bigoted, and thus those banned are not being targeted merely for being conservative.
In case #2, we should not believe people who claim they are being censored for being conservative. They are not. It is possible to be a non-bigoted conservative, just as not all Christians are homophobic. Thus it is not the conservatism that has led to the ban. It’s the bigotry. Simple.
If #1 is true, if conservatism is essentially bigoted … well then. That has implications.Report
“No one has ever said a restaurant cannot remove a patron for being disruptive or rude or any number of other factors.”
You’re only saying that because I’m black, and you’re white, and you’re racist and hate black people so you’re declaring that my culture is “disruptive and rude”.
“No one objects to content providers banning spam accounts.”
Uh-huh. Like how that Hunter Biden’s Laptop story was spam, right?
“Those who try to use principles designed to protect the targets of bigotry to instead protect the bigots themselves…”
Uh-huh. “Your speech is dangerous to the common good, we must therefore prevent you from speaking it in this forum, which is why we’re banning you for talking about your experiences as a trans person.”Report
Is “vaccine are poison the real cure is horse paste” a political view?
How about “Dominion sent the votes to Estonia to be changed”?Report
WW1: Concur on the Death Penalty. The application of the death penalty should be reserved for those who have demonstrated an unwillingness or inability to reform, the “mad dogs” of society, as it were.Report
Hard pass. The death penalty has no deterrent effect – its just state sanctioned revenge. Plus its a great way to make martyrs of some people. Far better to let them rot.Report
“Far better to let them rot.”
Oh, have you heard about what happened with Ehrlich Coker?Report
Outside of what’s written above? No. Again – make a point directly and we can have a conversation.Report
Sometimes putting them away to rot doesn’t work.
The argument that “we should just put them away and let them rot!” fails in the face of stuff like “breaking out of prison and raping people”.
I mean, I guess we should? But if we can’t, and we demonstrably can’t, then what?Report
“Sometimes putting them away to rot doesn’t work.”
To be fair, it “didn’t work” because he got out, it’s not like him running around loose was part of anyone’s plan.Report
My problem isn’t with the moral content of the sentiment.
I agree with the moral content of the sentiment.
My problem is with the engineering solution failing.Report
“we should just put them away” is not an engineering-solution statement, it’s a normative expression, and it’s not really meaningful to respond to normative expressions with engineering statements.
I mean, “that’s hard” might be true but by itself it isn’t a reason to not do something.Report
“What failure rate are you cool with?”Report
Two problems with letting them rot:
1) Escape. Not common, but also not unheard of, and a “mad dog” who wants to escape is not going to be overly concerned with the collateral damage.
2) Prison itself – unless we are going to place such people in permanent solitary confinement, these kinds of people contribute heavily to the horrific conditions in US prisons.Report
neither of those is a reason, much less a good reason, to put people to death.Report
Would it have been okay for Mr. Carver to kill Mr. Coker?Report
Depends. And I think everyone here knows what it depends on. Anyone pretending not to will be ignored.Report
Pretty sure in GA, defending yourself or others from rape is justification for deadly force. I know it is in other states. Maybe the codes have changed since the 70’s?Report
You didn’t pretend not to, so I’m not ignoring you. As for others…..Report
If there are circumstances under which it’d be okay for Coker to get killed, then we’re haggling.Report
I disagree. Any person whose very existence is a constant threat to others* should be removed from others. We can do it with permanent solitary, or death. I’m good with either.
Regarding solitary, this would mean no opportunity for escape. Court or lawyer meetings are done via video, and medical emergencies – sucks to be you. You are in the hole, or in the yard by yourself.
*Granted, I have a high bar for what constitutes such treatment (and very little faith that any political entity in the US could craft law that would not be abused), but someone like Coker would meet that bar.Report
How do we determine when someone is a “constant threat to others”, and in particular, at a level that justifies state-sanctioned homicide?Report
Would “breaking out at least once and raping a woman” count?
If it wouldn’t, what would? Is there anything?Report
I asked a question that cannot be answered by answering any of your questions. My question is, how do we determine when someone is a “constant threat to others?” If you want to answer this question by listing off different crimes, I’m afraid you do not understand the question, or at least, what an answer to the question would look like. If that’s not the case, then I confess, I don’t understand how playing that game would get us to an answer.Report
I think that something like pointing to a particular person and a particular set of crimes and a particular set of circumstances and saying “here… there is a line and this is on the other side of it” would be helpful.
It establishes that there is a line, even if we can’t pinpoint it, and that there are things on the other side of the line.Report
I don’t think it’s helpful, not only because to make such a determination we would need levels of details that make abstraction or generalization difficult, but also because it has already assumed or abstracted away from some of the most important factors, which have nothing to do with particular individuals and their cases.
It’s not that we can’t get there through a sort of Socratic dialogue, it’s that you aren’t having anything close to the right dialogue.Report
Well, to answer your original question:
“How do we determine when someone is a “constant threat to others”, and in particular, at a level that justifies state-sanctioned homicide?”
I think that “others being harmed by this person even after the person has been sequestered away from society in a prison” might qualify as a criteria that we could use to determine if someone is a threat to others.
“At the level that justifies state-sanctioned homicide” could be defined with something like “if they were killed by one of the people they were a threat to (defined earlier), would a jury of the threatened’s peers find it to be self-defense?”
And if “yes”, then there you go.
I mean, if the main thing you wanted was an answer to your question.Report
Under this standard, one could imagine a situation in which a person who escaped prison and drove a car could be sentence to death… for driving the car. That’s assuming we’re only going to convict people who’ve escaped from prison, and then, only people escaped from prison whom we know to have been imprisoned justly, and then…
if we’re going to apply it to anyone else, this criterion will turn out to be greatly unjust really fast.Report
This is why I brought up the whole issue of the jury and the peers and the self-defense thing.
If you killed someone for driving a car and claimed self-defense, would a jury of your peers find you innocent?
(I’m assuming that you are not a police officer, here.)
If the answer is no, then I’d say that that’s not a good counter-example.Report
I worded my response poorly, in attaching that counter example to the rest of the comment, so I’ll just repeat the other part without the counter:
Assuming we’re only going to convict people who’ve escaped from prison, and then, only people escaped from prison whom we know to have been imprisoned justly, and then…
if we’re going to apply it to anyone else, this criterion will turn out to be greatly unjust really fast.Report
Does Coker meet that standard or not?
Because, if he doesn’t, we’re stuck in a world where we have to deal with what happened to Mr. and Mrs. Carver.
Which also seems greatly unjust.
And that makes me think that you’re asking me to pick between injustices rather than between justice and injustice.Report
We’re stuck in that world anyway. Nothing we do to Coker changes the fact that we’re stuck in that world. Perhaps more importantly, nothing we do through the criminal justice system, at least as currently constituted, can prevent us from being stuck in that world.
We get out of that world by creating a system that doesn’t build Cokers in the first place, and one part of creating that world is getting rid of the criminal justice system as currently constituted, because it does as much, if not more, to create Cokers as any other part of our society.Report
Is there a country out there that doesn’t build Cokers?
Which country, if so?
For what it’s worth, my opposition to the death penalty is based in stuff like “I don’t trust the cops”, “I don’t trust the prosecutors”, and “I don’t trust the courts” rather than in something like “but Justice demands we not be cruel to the Cokers.”
I can easily see Justice involving cruelty to the Cokers. (We agree that “prison” qualifies as “cruel”, right?)Report
That’s the haggling, now isn’t it?
IMHO, it would be a 3 strikes kinda thing, but one that doesn’t automatically kick in.
So you’d need 3 convictions of a violent felony that would constitute justifiable homicide if any of the victims had been able to manage it[1], and only after the third conviction, the DA could petition the courts[2] for a special execution and lay out the evidence for why the prisoner is unfit to remain incarcerated for the rest of their natural life.
[1] To avoid legislatures making all manner of things ‘violent felonies’, we already have a problem with that.
[2] i.e. the death penalty is never ‘on the table’ as a punishment or part of a plea deal.Report
In a just system, it is perhaps best to have a simple, universally applied set of criteria (say, 3 violent crimes within certain categories of violence and crime), but we don’t have a just system available. The system we do have contains disparities, large and small, at every point within it, from whom cops choose to police and how, to whom prosecutors choose to prosecute and what crimes they choose to charge, and from access to representation to the sorts of evidence and even irrelevant factors that juries and judges will take into account. What’s more, the system we do have actually puts people in situations where violence may feel like the only option (not only in the way that prison hardens people, but in the binds prison puts people in when they get out, e.g., with debt or with the difficulties in finding a job with a felony conviction). As such, I don’t think you can abstract away from the context of crime, the nature of the policing and the justice system, and even the prison system, and achieve a just, fair, and impartial judgment of “constant threat to others” with a simple universal rule (or even ones of a complexity that still allows for clear application). at least not when we’re talking about ending the availability of due process, as the death penalty does.Report
I can’t disagree with you that the system itself is unjust and riddled with perverse incentives.
But that doesn’t change the fact that there are truly dangerous people in this world that, if killing them isn’t an option, really do need to be aggressively segregated from anyone else.
And I still hold that be it death or permanent solitary, such a punishment can not be a discretionary thing, nor can it be tied to a specific trial. That determination needs to be a separate thing, something that requires take specific action and present detailed evidence.Report
That still gets us back to who decides and how, and I don’t see a just way of doing so in our current system.
I’m also less inclined to see anyone as irredeemably violent, but I’ll say that solitary confinement is a form of inhuman cruelty, and while I am against the death penalty in every case, if the choice were the death penalty or lifelong solitary confinement, I’d support the death penalty, because in comparison to solitary, it’s the humane option.Report
We’ve already established who decides, it’s just a question of how it’s decided. The rub is what the criteria are. Right now, I think the bar for the death penalty is far too low (and the bar for solitary is even lower than that). I’d raise them both quite a bit higher.
But, I’m not the one making that call, and to be frank, as much as you are pushing back on me, I think the hardcore L&O types would hate my suggestions even more, because it would raise the bar too high, in their opinion.
Yes, not only because solitary itself is destructive, but because it offers far too much opportunity for sadism on the part of the state agents.Report
See my reply to Jaybird above. I think the answer is not to figure out how to use the death penalty, because there is no possible just use of the death penalty within our current criminal justice system, and we already know it’s not an effective deterrent, and while we might prevent particular individuals from committing particular crimes, we still have a system that will churn out more violent, broken humans.
The answer is, therefore, to rebuild the system entirely, and while I realize that’s a big thing, not plausible in the immediate term, I see no path from where we are now that goes through tightening or loosening the criteria for capital punishment that gets us there. Instead, we get there by dismantling the prison system as we know it altogether, by dismantling the policing system as we know it altogether, and by radically focusing those resources on both the causes and effects of economic and social inequality.Report
1) My proposal has nothing to do with deterrence. It has to do with the recognition that there are “Mad Dogs” that either can not be rehabilitated, or that we are unable to rehabilitate. And if we can not keep them sequestered, then we should put them down.
2) That bit about rehabilitation leads into your cogent point, that we basically suck when it comes to not creating such people in the first place, and are seemingly powerless to rehabilitate them when they do appear. So 100% agree, we should scrap what we have and build something less punitive and more rehabilitative. How we do that (since I doubt we can simply copy & paste Norway here) is a great question, but until we figure such things out…Report
There is a large dose of illogic in thinking we can perfectly identify which folks are so dangerous they can’t be trusted around other people but our only way to mitigate the risk they pose is to kill them.Report
All of them? Of course not.
Individual ones like Coker?
Well… do you think that Coker falls on the other side of that line?Report
Perhaps I am not being clear here. No one is trying to identify dangerous people like some kind of Minority Report. This is all after the fact reasoning, when you have a well defined amount of evidence that a given person is truly dangerous.
Multiple convictions for violent felonies against persons (battery/rape/homicide), both in & out of prison; psychologist reports regarding the person suggesting they are resistant to rehab, etc.
What we have now is either no one dies, regardless of how terrible they are (thus they are at the very least inflicted upon other prisoners who may or may not be equipped to deal with them), or the state gets to impose death as a form of virtue signalling (e.g. murder doesn’t get you the needle, but killing a cop does).
Ultimately, I would expect the number of executions to drop considerably, because of how many executions are of people who failed to have adequate legal representation, and / or who were clearly unable to aid in the own defense.Report
I have to point out that there are people who are just as bad towards other prisoners in prisons who have _unequivocally_ not done anything to deserve death under any current law.
For example, various gang members often have not done much more than basic assault and theft and maybe some drug possession. And yet, as part of a gang, they terrorize other prisoners. The death penalty cannot solve this problem, unless the premise is ‘kill literally everyone who commits a violent crime’.
I think the question we need to ask _there_ is: Why are we building prisons where prisoners are allowed to ‘inflict’ themselves on other prisoners at all?Report
Honest answer? Because we are a punitive society and we think it’s some kind of justice for the more violent to inflict themselves on the less so.Report
There you go speaking truth.
But seriously, I understand the impulse to expose criminals too degradation. If someone hurt me or someone I care about, then I’d want them to suffer. However, we also have the capacity for reason, and any sensible moral calculus should tell us that our current prison system is deeply inhumane. Moreover, our capacity to flippantly decide who “deserves it” is suspect.
Anyway, yeah.Report
I don’t think anyone has ever escaped from a supermax prison. Don’t we would need that many SMs to keep every really crazy dangerous f’r away for good with virtually no hope of escape.Report
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1998-03-09-1998068097-story.html
More than once, dude.Report
No one has ever escaped from the federal supermax facility outside Florence, CO. It costs about $80,000 per year to house a prisoner there. Construction costs per prisoner are much higher than conventional prisons.
State “supermax” facilities vary all over the place in terms of how secure they are.Report
It’s cheaper to lock them up for life, and you can also *let them out* if it turns out they didn’t do it.
Which is…depressingly common.
And god knows, the death penalty doesn’t actually deter anyone.
So you might as well go with the cheaper, more easily reversed option.Report
See my reply to Chris.Report
Your responses to Chris all assume that everyone sentenced to death is, in fact, guilty of that crime.
The Innocence Project would note that is not true.
If we had 100% certainty of justice — you’d have more of a point.
But again, that’s not actually how our justice system works.
So again: Why should we execute people when it costs more, does not deter crime, and we unfortunately occasionally convict the innocent?
Offhand, I’m pretty sure we’ve executed more innocent folks in the last 50 years than have actually escaped death row.
Pragmatically, we’re better off with life without parole. It’s cheaper, and if it turns out they’re innocent, it’s a lot easier to let them go than resurrect them.Report
Please re-read my comment. No one is sentenced to death. As a matter of fact, I specifically say that the death penalty would not be available to prosecutors.Report
A non-controversial statement that’s going to sound controversial: our understanding of rape is evolving. The decision includes the statement, “”Rarely can it be said to be unpremeditated.” That shows a different understanding of the crime.
I’d have no problem in theory with the execution of rapists, but we’d have to really have a solid set of varying degrees of the crime. (Maybe we already do; I’m happy to say I’ve never done any research into the topic.) I think historically in the West, the three most common capital crimes are murder, rape, and treason.
It’s way more complicated than that. I’m using all three terms in their broadest senses, and historically, capital rape has included suspicion of a black man sleeping with a white woman.Report
And precisely because it was a suspicion many factually innocent black men were punished for it. Which is all the more reason NOT to make rape a capitol crime.Report
WW4: Demanding standards seems to be a pretty good workaround for the problems of QI.
Given the whole “unwritten rulings” thing, though, I’m not sure it’s a long-term solution. But, in the short term, it’s positive movement.Report
There is also the problem of what happens when the next POTUS likes choke holds and dynamic entry. I mean, it’s a good thing, but it’s a band-aid on a bullet hole.Report
I’m looking at the crime numbers and guessing that we’re 3-4 years away from “LAW AND ORDER” becoming something that a presidential candidate says unironically against a different candidate who is holding a chart saying something like “only murders and shootings have gone up!”Report
WW7 – I’ve seen stories claiming extreme conditions for Capitol Riot defendants, but this is one of those stories where I won’t trust the conservative or mainstream press. I’d be curious if Em would look into it.Report
I don’t know the political slant of this particular outlet, but the article seems to be fairly factually straight forward and drawing from court filings. Complaints range from serious lack of medical care and assaults and threats from guards to lack of haircuts and sharing toenail clippers.
Anyone familiar with the penal system would say “same old, same old.” In other words, it sounds like they are being treated the same as most inmates are: badly. But nothing stands out as “extreme” comparative to other inmates.
I’ll dig some more, see what I can see.
https://www.washingtonian.com/2021/08/12/accused-january-6-rioters-complain-about-conditions-in-dc-jail/Report