The Cosby (S***) Show: The Legal and Moral Failings That Freed Bill Cosby

Em Carpenter

Em was one of those argumentative children who was sarcastically encouraged to become a lawyer, so she did. She is a proud life-long West Virginian, and, paradoxically, a liberal. In addition to writing about society, politics and culture, she enjoys cooking, podcasts, reading, and pretending to be a runner. She will correct your grammar. You can find her on Twitter.

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64 Responses

  1. InMD says:

    Court got it right. The state convinced Cosby to make inculpatory statements he never would have otherwise then used them to prosecute him. The system can’t work if that’s allowed. Yea his lawyers should have gotten it official but it doesn’t change the detrimental reliance. Bad on them, very sloppy and maybe even malpractice, but the defendant shouldn’t bear the brunt of that.

    Your contract theory is also wrong. You put an ad in the paper saying $10 for a puppy, and if someone shows up with $10 they’ve accepted your offer. Except in that situation if you’re out of puppies the accepting party doesn’t have to pay and isn’t out $10. Here there’s no way to give Cosby a refund on the civil testimony. And we’re talking about rights here, and when there’s no remedy… well I’m sure you know the saying.

    The bottom line is the state bent the rules to get this conviction and a lot of commentators said so at the time. Not only here but with all the testimony to uncharged (indeed uncharge-able) crimes they allowed. If the charges were anything but sex offenses/a big conviction with #MeToo resonance most of the people decrying this outcome would be singing a very different tune.Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to InMD says:

      “ The state convinced Cosby to make inculpatory statements he never would have otherwise then used them to prosecute him.”
      A non-prosecution decision happens every day. It shouldn’t be seen as an inducement. If I believed there was any actual agreement, even verbal, I’d feel differently. But I don’t.
      The contract thing:
      There was nothing for Cosby to accept or reject here. He had no power to make the prosecutor act or not act. Castor’s actions were not dependent on any acceptance. There is no proof there was ever any agreement “I won’t prosecute if you submit to deposition.” There is also no suggestion that Castor would have prosecuted if Cosby hadn’t given depo testimony.Report

      • Em Carpenter in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        Also I take offense at this statement to the extent you’re suggesting it applies to me:
        “If the charges were anything but sex offenses/a big conviction with #MeToo resonance most of the people decrying this outcome would be singing a very different tune.“
        I feel like my history and integrity on that front is pretty solid.Report

        • InMD in reply to Em Carpenter says:

          No personal attack intended, and apologies if I crossed the line. Up until 2 days ago my opinion was ‘not sure I agree with how they got there but he had his day in court and a jury of his peers convicted, etc.’Report

      • InMD in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        How often is a decision not to prosecute placed in a public press release like this? This was not a back office decision and I think it’s inaccurate to characterize it as though it was. Had it been I’d agree with you.Report

        • Em Carpenter in reply to InMD says:

          In a high-profile case a statement explaining the decision not to charge is very common. See for example police shootings.
          Never before have these types of statements been construed as final and binding.Report

          • InMD in reply to Em Carpenter says:

            And there are other cases where they prosecuted anyway after the decision induced a waiver of the 5th then used those statements to convict? It’s absolutely bad lawyering by Cosby’s defense but the defendant shouldn’t lose a right for that.

            I’m open to the argument that the right remedy was retrial with the civil testimony suppressed but this was not business as usual.Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to InMD says:

      You know, I think people would feel the same way about a school shooter, even if he only killed boys.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    What confuses me is the whole thing about how these were all verbals?

    Like, nothing was written down?

    A verbal agreement ain’t worth the paper its printed on and the fact that this relies on a verbal from more than a decade ago? Like… what the hell?Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to Jaybird says:

      There’s literally no evidence that any meeting of the minds occurred here. A statement of I’m not going to prosecute, without more, doesn’t amount to an agreement in my opinion.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        Is there even a recording of this?

        Here is my stupid question: Is there any evidence that this actually freaking happened?

        (I’m not saying “THIS DIDN’T HAPPEN!”. I am, instead, asking “is there any evidence that this happened?” Above and beyond Cosby’s cooperation, I guess.)Report

        • Em Carpenter in reply to Jaybird says:

          No. There isn’t. Cosby’s civil lawyer testified that it did, though he heard it from the criminal attorney who died before the second prosecution. Constand’s lawyers and Castor’s first assistant (who later became the prosecutor who charged Cosby) all deny ever hearing about any agreement.
          His giving of testimony at that point really wasn’t his choice. Even if there was no agreement, and if castor never put out any statement and had just quietly let it go, Cosby would have had to sit for a depo. As I wrote above, if he’d tried to plead the 5th they’d likely have had to fight it out in court but no pending charges means no 5th to plead.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Em Carpenter says:

            Pardon me for belaboring this but I want to hammer this out:

            Does the possibility exist that Cosby is making this up and the prosecutor guy is going along (for whatever reason)?Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

              No.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                So we know for a fact that they did have this deal?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                Reading comprehension Jaybird.

                1) We know that DA Castor decided not to prosecute because he held a press conference saying so.

                2) We know following that press conference Cosby was deposed in a civil suit where he essentially incriminated himself – apparently because he believed he would not be criminally prosecuted.

                3) We know a new DA decided to prosecute after that deposition based on its contents, got a conviction and that conviction has now been overturned.

                4) we know that Castor has stated publicly that he intended to withhold prosecution to enhance the chances of the civil suit being a success.

                5) We know Cosby’s attorney’s rolled all the above into their appeal and the Pennsylvania Supreme Court agreed that it was an “agreement” not to prosecute that they have now decided the post-Castor DA should not have gone back on.

                The issue for a good many people is Castor and his staff never wrote anything down and signed it, and neither did Cosby’s defense lawyer at the time. Which is why so many folks are having a hard time seeing any “agreement” being discussed.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                Phil, please understand.

                My experience of the justice system (from the outside, mind) is that The Authorities lie all the freaking time. Like, *ALL* the freaking time.

                From the cops who lie about how they just want to know the whole story.
                To the Prosecutors who overcharge as leverage to get a deal.

                And, suddenly, we have The Authorities coming forward to let a very very rich guy out of prison after he was found guilty by a jury of his peers when, suddenly, someone points out “oh, yeah, we had a verbal”?

                Because I think that the problem is that I am, in fact, comprehending what I am reading.

                And thinking “surely I can’t be”.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

                “We had a verbal” goes back to at least 2015, when Castor used it to try to prevent the prosecution that put Cosby in jail. But it is true that it’s all Castor:

                * Not prosecuting in 2005
                * Trying to prevent prosecution in 2015
                * Main support of the legal theory that overturned the conviction in 2021

                If he was bought, he’s stayed bought for a long time.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                I’m not even saying that the guy was paid off.

                I’m just here being asked to understand that a billionaire got a deal that, to the best of my understanding, nobody else in the history of the freaking world has gotten.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

                My read is it was less a “great deal” and more “the prosecutor gets rid of a hot potato by handing it off to the civil courts without Bill able to take the 5th”.Report

              • Em Carpenter in reply to Philip H says:

                “4) we know that Castor has stated publicly that he intended to withhold prosecution to enhance the chances of the civil suit being a success.”

                Not until ten years after the fact.Report

              • Em Carpenter in reply to CJColucci says:

                I disagree. Of course it’s possible. Constand’s lawyers say Castor is lying when he says they knew and were on board with the decision. The attorney he says he made the agreement with is dead and can’t confirm. And there is zero evidence from 2005 that there was a back room deal.
                I realize that the alternative is really bad lawyering… but that’s not outside the realm of possibility. It’s bad lawyering not to have gotten an actual agreement in writing, even just a letter setting forth the intent.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Em Carpenter says:

                What you describe as possible is, indeed, possible. But that Cosby made it up and Castor is going along because — well, who needs a “because?” — strikes me as, at best, vanishingly unlikely given the things we actually do know. If someone presents a coherent version of why the Authorities would conspire to get Cosby out of prison, preferably not involving Jeffrey Epstein, that might be worth addressing. I’m not holding my breath.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                The idea that this could happen requires a conspiracy theory.

                Therefore it did not.

                Q TO THE E TO THE MISTER FALCON D

                (For the record, I have heard of cases of stuff like “corruption”. They’re not common, but they do exist. Also: Incompetence.)Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                If someone presents a coherent version of why the Authorities would conspire to get Cosby out of prison, preferably not involving Jeffrey Epstein, that might be worth addressing. I’m not holding my breath.

                As someone around here once said, the problem with a universal solvent is there’s nowhere to put it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                So we just have a case where a billionaire got a deal approved that there is no record of him getting in the first place.

                And, apparently, this is something that happens rarely enough that we can’t find any other examples of it happening.

                What’s so hard to understand about that?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                There isn’t anything yet to understand. Who did what? And why? And what reason is there to think it? Other than that The Authorities lie all the time and that corruption and incompetence exist in the world. But that’s the universal solvent. It doesn’t amount to a coherent theory.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Merely the coherent hypothesis: In the absence of a deal, Cosby should not have been released.

                That’s it. It’s that simple.Report

              • Em Carpenter in reply to CJColucci says:

                I understand that. I just can’t believe his lawyers would have let him testify with no actual agreement, in writing. Then again, I would have expected them to fight the depo if they didn’t believe he was in the clear.
                It doesn’t make sense either way.
                In no other case have I seen a non-pros decision (except as part of a plea or cooperation deal) considered forever binding.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Em Carpenter says:

                I wouldn’t have let him testify either. Cosby should have hired one of us.Report

              • Em Carpenter in reply to CJColucci says:

                On that we can agree.Report

              • So his real grounds for appeal was inadequate counsel.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Em Carpenter says:

            So, this all started with parallel cases. The civil case is put on hold while the criminal case is pending. The criminal case is dismissed thus Cosby is compelled to provide evidence at the civil depo that is incriminating?

            Could Cosby have still invoked the 5th during the depo?Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              He should have. Then a court could have either accepted the claim (which the plaintiff’s lawyers could have raised) that he was not in jeopardy and, therefore, had no fifth amendment privilege, or held that Cosby was still in jeopardy and could plead the fifth. So either he would have not testified (and been on notice that he might still be prosecuted) or there would have been a ruling that he could not be prosecuted and, therefore, compelled to testify. Either way, everyone would know what they were dealing with, rather than have the mishegas that actually ensued.
              Also, if he had successfully taken the fifth, a civil jury, unlike a criminal jury, could draw the inference that he was not testifying because he was guilty.Report

            • Em Carpenter in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

              In my opinion it depends on whether it was dismissed with or without prejudice. If without, then we have a gray area in which he could try to plead the fifth and prompt a motion to compel and a decision by the court.Report

  3. Rapcity says:

    It’s good to see justice done in the lower-profile cases.
    One step forward and a hundred steps back.Report

  4. Holden114 says:

    Thanks for the explainer. Thorough and understandable.

    A few questions

    1) How does a prosecutor immunize an accused presuming no more evidence could come out in the future?

    2) Assuming we agree with the court’s decision, how do we fix this? (this = preventing a prosecutor from doing this in the future, if anything)

    3) Could the court in the civil case compel Cosby to testify based on the prosecutor’s statements? If so then Cosby isn’t only relying on their interpretation of the prosecutor. By compelling testimony isn’t the civil court also ensuring Cosby that he has immunity?Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to Holden114 says:

      I know I already responded on Twitter but for the good of the group:

      “1) How does a prosecutor immunize an accused presuming no more evidence could come out in the future?”
      There was no immunity here. The process of granting immunity is governed by statute in PA and requires an order from a judge. And when immunity is granted, if new evidence arises as to that crime, the state is out of luck unless otherwise stipulated in the immunity agreement.

      “2) Assuming we agree with the court’s decision, how do we fix this? (this = preventing a prosecutor from doing this in the future, if anything)”
      Requiring agreements not to prosecute be reduced to writing? That can be problematic when cooperation is at the crux of the agreement so it would take some thought to craft that well.

      “3) Could the court in the civil case compel Cosby to testify based on the prosecutor’s statements? If so then Cosby isn’t only relying on their interpretation of the prosecutor. By compelling testimony isn’t the civil court also ensuring Cosby that he has immunity?”

      Assume for a minute there was no agreement, just that months have gone by and the prosecutor has not filed charges or indicted Cosby. Meanwhile, civil suit is filed and Cosby is subpoenaed for deposition. He pleads the fifth and refuses to answer questions. Plaintiff’s lawyer says you can’t do that – there are no charges pending against you. Cosby’s lawyer would say ok but the potential exists for charges so my client can’t testify. What would happen is a motion to compel would be filed and the judge would decide if he has to answer. The judge may even call the prosecutor into court to ask what his intentions are. If the prosecutor said “Yes, Cosby may yet be charged”, there is a chance the judge rules in Cosby’s favor and he doesn’t have to provide answers, at which point the civil lawyer would probably move for a stay of the civil proceedings until the criminal case is either over or the prosecutor unequivocally states that no charges would be brought, ever. With that kind of record I would absolutely agree that the second prosecution is precluded.

      Instead of months of silence and no decision, we have a statement that says “I’m not charging him because I don’t think I could win.” It doesn’t say he can never be charged, that he has immunity, or that the decision not to charge is contingent upon him testifying at deposition in a civil case. I think the rest should have happened as I laid out above, with the invocation of the fifth and the motion to compel.
      Now, the fact that it didn’t happen this way is part of why the Court believes there was an agreement – reasoning that no competent lawyer would have allowed her client to testify if she was not assured there would be no prosecution, ever.
      That is a tempting position, I admit. But bad lawyering happens all the time. Besides, even accepting everything the defense says as true, it is STILL bad lawyering to not have had something in writing. It’s not a leap to think they might have given bad advice.
      If you want to argue that the defendant should not suffer and go to prison just because his lawyers gave bad advice, I’m receptive to that.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        OK, this answers my question from up above. Thank you!Report

      • Holden114 in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        When he testified in the civil case, had he not already gone through the motions of arguing he didn’t have to because 5A and told no, you have to bc you’re not at risk of criminal charges?

        Why does he testify unless he had no other choice?Report

        • Em Carpenter in reply to Holden114 says:

          No, he didn’t go through that prior to his depo.
          Two possible reasons:
          1. A bunch of highly skilled lawyers relied on an unrecorded verbal promise by the prosecutor and believed this unrecorded verbal promise bound all future DAs.
          2. A bunch of highly skilled lawyers let their client testify without any assurance he would never be prosecuted because they though the lack of pending charges meant no 5A protection.

          Both are absurd, but one has to be true.Report

          • Holden114 in reply to Em Carpenter says:

            Thanks. You’ve been very patient.

            I guess my assumption is that if he’s giving testimony where he admits wrongdoing it’s because he’s exhausted every avenue to get out of it. Even if his lawyers felt he was protected, why do it unless absolutely necessary? What does he get out of it?

            This is what doesn’t square for me, but this is a world I don’t inhabit so I don’t expect it to.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Em Carpenter says:

            Are we sure these were “highly skilled lawyers”?

            Wesley Snipes got himself imprisoned by not paying taxes and claiming the IRS can’t collect taxes. Steve Jobs tried to treat his cancer with a “medically created” diet.

            Cosby’s lawyers might have come from a similar cloth.Report

  5. Hey, this is great, thank you for writing it. I appreciate your explaining it so clearly for us non-legal scholars.Report

  6. North says:

    A cogent analysis and a summary I agree with. Cosby has his freedom and some scraps of his fortune. He’s lost everything else. That’s not enough, considering the magnitude of his crimes, but it isn’t nothing. And the decision is necessary to preserve the integrity of the system that erred in the way they went after him and will protect many more innocent and less powerful people in the future.Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to North says:

      I’m not so sure I agree about its protective value going forward.
      The holding is not “a decisions not to prosecute is forever binding if the defendant is harmed by relying on it.” The holding is “because there was an agreement not to prosecute with the intention of compelling testimony it is binding” which again hinges on the premise that such an agreement existed.
      Imagine the exact same fact pattern, but without the insistence that there was some sort of unwritten agreement that the intent was to compel testimony in the civil case. Just a statement that nah, i don’t think she is believable and i’m not gonna try it.
      Then its just a non-pros decision without any promise, implied or otherwise, that it was intended to be final and binding. I’m not so sure a defendant would win without this unwritten agreement they insist exists but which there is no evidence of other than the word of the lawyers involved.
      If its a regular joe without millions of dollars, the “alternate justice” of a civil suit is not at play.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        Reading tea leaves here, but perhaps this was the PA SC sending a message to everyone that things gotta be in writing, and the only reason it slewed to Cosby is that a high profile over-turn sticks in the memory.

        But I could be wrong…Report

      • North in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        I’m gonna go Pollyanna and say that this’ll lead to all future such deals being written down or else disregarded.Report

  7. PD Shaw says:

    This is a good explainer, but I got lost on the contract stuff. Promissory estoppel exists as a remedy when the contract is not enforceable because of some defect. Sometimes it is described as a contract theory, sometimes as an alternative to contract. It certainly differs from state to state, but in my state it basically requires a promise on which the plaintiff detrimentally relied. The jury must find the reliance reasonable under the circumstances.

    OTOH the government generally cannot be estopped; there are exceptions based upon public policy, and it seems like Pennsylvania thinks public policy should allow prosecutors to be estopped in these circumstances.

    The weird thing from a non-criminal comparison is how such an obviously important issue was not resolved before trial.Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to PD Shaw says:

      They tried to resolve it. His lawyers raised the issue and lost, filed an interlocutory appeal and lost.
      For me to accept that promissory estoppel applies, I first have to believe there was a promise. I don’t see one. The court does, but I don’t.Report

  8. Thanks for this Em. I’m still confused, what with some lawyers insisting there was a quid pro quo and other saying they can’t see one, but this piece as really helpful in making the issues clear.Report

  9. DavidTC says:

    Yeah, when I first heard about this, I was like ‘Why the hell did anyone give Cosby any sort of immunity in return from testimony.’?

    And then I learned they hadn’t. It was just ‘We don’t have the evidence to convict him’, which, notable, doesn’t seem to even _imply_ ‘So go ahead and testify in the civil case, we won’t prosecute’, but actually seems to imply the _opposite_ of ‘If we had a stronger case, we would prosecute’. And then Cosby gave them a stronger case?

    Also: Why is it that the police can lie to the accused all the time, promising all sorts of things that are not true and could not be true?

    Hell, the police lie about that _specific_ thing: Whether or not they intend to prosecute someone for a crime. Not even change their mind, as appear to be what happened, they literally lie and say ‘We don’t think you did anything wrong, you’re not in trouble, tell us what happened’, while they are standing there waiting for damming facts to come out. And the only quibble is whether or not they gave a Miranda warning after having already decided to charge someone. Which they often also lie about when they decided to do that, but even there, as long as they give that warning, they can lie to someone they intend to arrest all they want. They can lie about their facts, they can lie about their intentions.

    But meanwhile a DA literally holding a press conference and saying to the public ‘We don’t have a strong enough case to prosecute’ (and, by all indications, telling the truth at the time.), is somehow enough to have an entire conviction overturned. And not even retried?

    It’s an interesting two-part system, when you think about it. Part of it, the lawyer part, the part only rich people can afford and the poor people only have access to for five seconds via a public defender, has to operate truthfully, and if there is even the _slightest_ thing that can possibley be interpreted as a lie on the government’s part, the entire case is thrown out, apparently!

    Meanwhile, the _other_ part, the police part, blatantly lies all the time, and I’m not even talking about the illegal lying, the testilying, I’m talking about them lying to suspects to trick them into giving evidence against themselves. Which is entirely legal.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to DavidTC says:

      I don’t see this so much as trick as something that happened because there was a change of a guard and a the new Prosecutor was facing political pressure to convict.Report

    • JS in reply to DavidTC says:

      “”Yeah, when I first heard about this, I was like ‘Why the hell did anyone give Cosby any sort of immunity in return from testimony.’?”

      Primarily, because the DA couldn’t make the rape case with what was known. In fact, the DA that later went on to convict Cosby did so by relying heavily on Cosby’s admissions in the civil case. As best I can tell, the original DA basically said “I can’t get you criminal justice, I don’t see a jury convicting on this at all….but I can help you win the civil case.”

      Which wasn’t great, but I don’t think anyone feels his 2005 assessment was wrong.

      “Also: Why is it that the police can lie to the accused all the time, promising all sorts of things that are not true and could not be true?”

      Because police aren’t the Courts. Police don’t prosecute you, police don’t judge you, police don’t have the same legal or ethical requirements.

      In the end, Cosby only testified because he thought he couldn’t claim 5th Amendment rights — because of the 2005 DA’s public statements. His conviction hinged heavily on that testimony.

      The PA Supreme Court could have taken refuge in something like the lack of a signed, binding agreement. But allowing violations of the 5th Amendment is….a big thing. Letting a DA end-run someone’s 5th Amendment protections like that? That’s a bad door to open.

      And waiving prosecution in return for testimony, testimony only given because it can no longer self-incriminate, is a pretty darn pivotal part of how criminal trials WORK. Leaving the door open a crack — “Oh, we said we wouldn’t prosecute you for X in return for your testimony, but your court-appointed lawyer didn’t sign form 308B in triplicate means that’s not binding, so we’re charging you with X now that we have your testimony” is….

      Well, if you’re a Court looking at the long-term health of the Courts, that’s a door you want to keep firmly closed. You do NOT want prosecutors getting the notion that they can get clever about bypassing Constitutional Rights.

      “I’m talking about them lying to suspects to trick them into giving evidence against themselves. Which is entirely legal.”

      Which they can do, because they’re not the Courts. Perhaps they shouldn’t. But that’s the way it is — a police offer can lie to a suspect, but if a lawyer does it it’s perjury.

      Police officers aren’t judges, they’re not prosecutors, they don’t bring charges, they don’t preside over trials, and they don’t decide punishment. They are not officers of the court.Report

      • Em Carpenter in reply to JS says:

        “ Oh, we said we wouldn’t prosecute you for X in return for your testimony,…”
        Except there’s no proof anybody ever said this to Cosby.
        There was no quid pro quo, no benefit of a bargain for the state.
        Either there was a prosecutable case or there wasn’t and it didn’t hinge on Cosby’s cooperation in a depo. It’s not like Cosby could refuse to testify and then Castor would prosecute.
        “Letting a DA end-run someone’s 5th Amendment protections like that? That’s a bad door to open.”
        A decision not to prosecute because a case is “weak” isn’t an end run around anything. It only became one ten years later when suddenly “I didn’t prosecute bc my case was too weak” became “I didn’t prosecute because we had an agreement.”Report

      • DavidTC in reply to JS says:

        Because police aren’t the Courts. Police don’t prosecute you, police don’t judge you, police don’t have the same legal or ethical requirements.

        I keep having the weirdest conversations with people this week, where I say ‘Why is the system set up in this specific manner?’, and they respond with ‘Because the system is set up in this manner.’. Which I guess is true in a technical sense, in that it is tautological, the system is the way it is because the system is set up that way.

        But it is clearly not what I’m asking as a question. I am asking why such an unfair system exists.

        There is one part of the justice system that is allowed to lie its ass off. There is another part that is not.

        That second part is something that wealthy people have a hell of a lot of access too, and poor people basically do not.

        Or, since poor people do sign a lot of plea deals, I guess they have ‘access’, in some manner. They can be sure their plea deals hold up. Which is…good, I guess. I mean, the plea deals are bad, but it’s good that the courts can’t somehow take a confession of guilt inside a plea deal and use that to charge someone with a crime!

        So I guess I should say that wealthy people are allowed to _negotiate_ under a system of honesty, they bring in a lawyer, they talk to the DA, etc. They work things out in a place that people are not allowed to lie.

        Whereas poor people do not. Even if they ask for a lawyer, that just means the questioning stops, they can’t magically get a public defender to show up and negotiate for them. And poor people are often tricked under negotiating in the system of lies, with people who are _not_ acting honestly and have no requirement to do so.

        After this trickery, they are _then_ shunted into the system of honesty to finalize their guilt.

        Addition: And I guess my point is: If the system of honesty _allows_ this, it is, itself, a corrupt institution that needs to be burned to the ground. The courts don’t get to be ‘Oh, we don’t allow lies, we just _have an entire structure in front of us that does the lying for us, but only to the dopes who can’t pay for their own lawyers_.’.

        That’s utter nonsense.

        But allowing violations of the 5th Amendment is….a big thing.

        LOL.

        Pretty sure you’re only talking about one part of the 5th there, the ‘nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself’. The courts are, indeed, serious about that. And I’ll admit they’re also pretty serious about double jeopardy.

        But the courts seem to have no problem with the ‘nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.’ parts of the 5th.

        Like, I don’t even need to go into examples there.Report

  10. Brent F says:

    If anyone is interested in a comparative law view, this scenario couldn’t arise in a Canadian court because the Canada Evidence Act allows compelled statements which might self-incriminate as admissible for civil trials, but that same compelled statement is inadmissible against you in a criminal proceeding.

    The same basic right (against self-incrimination) applied very differently.Report