Why a Trump Loss is Best for Conservatives
For the past few months eight years, I’ve been making the case that Donald Trump is bad for America. Today, I want to try something a little bit different and explain why a Trump victory would be bad for conservatives. The best outcome for principled conservatives and constitutionalists may be a Trump loss. Yes, you heard that right.
Let’s start by looking back at the first (and hopefully only) Trump presidency. Many people view the Trump years through rose-colored glasses and this is heartily encouraged by Republicans. They remember the Trump years as an era of prosperity and strength, but the recollections do not match reality.
Even before the pandemic pushed the economy off a cliff (and triggered a worldwide wave of inflation), the Trump economy was struggling. The Former Guy launched ill-advised and disastrous trade wars with China along with almost all of our other trading partners after canceling the TransPacific Partnership. The TPP would have isolated China, but Trump’s tariff (taxes on trade) wars isolated America and both cost America jobs and contributed to an exploding deficit. The Wall Street Journal looked back in 2023 and said, “Trump’s trade war was a loser.”
On foreign affairs, Trump was weak, rather than the strong leader he pretends to be. Trump fawned over dictators like Putin and Kim Jong Un and abandoned allies like the Kurds (and the Afghans since the Trump Administration brokered the US withdrawal and then released 5,000 Taliban prisoners who returned to the battlefield). He brought the US to the brink of war with Iran and only avoided conflict by backing down after Iran launched a missile attack on an American airbase in Iraq.
Domestically, Trump’s term was marked by divisiveness and political violence from both sides. The capstone to his tenure was his attempt to deny his election loss and overturn the decision of the people by throwing out the electoral votes of entire states. The January 6 insurrection was only the cherry on top of that effort.
Trump was also disastrous for the Republican Party. The end of the Obama era brought optimism for a new conservative era. Trump replaced that optimism with grudging acceptance that Trump was necessary to beat Hillary, but the grand conservative vision of ushering in enlightened constitutional government died quickly and has not returned. Instead of a positive vision for America, the Republican Party is reduced to making dour predictions about the future if Democrats are returned to power, predictions that have not been borne out in Joe Biden’s presidency.
The Trump years were an epic losing streak for Republicans across the country. Democrats scored their largest gains since Watergate in the 2018 midterms, winning 40 House seats. A hoped-for red wave petered out in 2022, thanks in large part to the poor quality of Trump’s MAGA candidates, and Republicans barely won control of the House while losing the Senate. During the Trump years, per Ballotpedia, Republicans also lost a net of 187 state legislative seats allowing Democrats to gain in two-thirds of state legislative bodies and to capture a trifecta in four states (Colorado, Maine, New York, and Virginia).
Granted, the Trump presidency wasn’t all bad. In the South, we have a saying that even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally. Undoubtedly, the best part of Trump’s tenure was the judges. His appointments to the Supreme Court and the lower bench were good for the most part, and a great many of the decisions handed down by the Federalist Society’s constitutionalist judges have been good ones.
There are a few caveats to that, however. While I believe the Dobbs decision was legally and morally correct, it has been unpopular and caused blowback that has damaged both the Republican Party and the pro-life movement. Ironically, Dobbs, the long-awaited reversal of Roe, has so far been a net negative for the right. And it’s fair to ask why no Republican state government has banned abortion since the decision was handed down.
Even more disturbing, despite a number of good, constructionist decisions, the Supreme Court that Trump wrought also handed down what may be one of the worst and most damaging decisions in American history. The Trump immunity decision may have sown the seeds for the destruction of our Republic and its replacement by authoritarianism.
Other Trump victories were more ephemeral. The movement of the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem was the right move but doesn’t affect Americans on a daily basis. Illegal immigration plunged during the pandemic but was climbing by the time Trump left office, largely because Trump’s own sanctions on Venezuela spurred migration. The illegal immigration problem cannot be solved permanently without congressional action and Trump has sabotaged such efforts repeatedly, even while he was in office.
Trump did score treaties as well. The US-Mexico-Canada trade agreement was a movement away from free trade and turned out to have weakened the rights of American companies and allowed the Mexican government to seize assets of US businesses. The Abraham Accords was a historic peace deal, but almost certainly had less to do with who was president than the fact that Arab nations were tired of fighting Israel. A similar peace deal with Saudi Arabia was underway in the Biden Administration and the outbreaks of peace likely provided Iran and Hamas with a motive to attack on October 7. The Saudi-Israeli peace deal may still happen, but it won’t be on Biden’s watch.
Having reviewed Trump’s history, let’s now look to the future. In this mental exercise, we will examine the possible outcomes of both a Trump victory and a defeat.
Let’s assume first that Trump wins a narrow victory in the Electoral College, probably paired with a popular vote loss. Trump might have a narrow majority in one or both houses of Congress, but he won’t have a mandate. Nevertheless, he will act like he does.
Trump has renounced Project 2025, but parts of the plan will be quickly resurrected, along with Trump’s own Agenda 47. These will be controversial but the gist of what we can expect is a power grab. MAGA will want to cement its loyalists deeply into the federal power structure on the theory that they will never lose again. Spoiler alert: They will and whatever can be done by Executive Order can be undone by Executive Order.
I expect one of Trump’s first actions to be to restart the trade wars. The economy is on a reasonably strong footing at this point with inflation receding and interest rates coming down, but the Trump trade taxes, if he implements them as described, will have the immediate effect of raising the cost of almost everything. This is also known as cost-push inflation and may be enough to tip the country into the recession that Republicans have predicted for the past four years. Don’t worry, though, I’m sure they’ll still blame Joe Biden.
Abroad, Trump has indicated that his peace plan for Ukraine is to essentially cut off aid to the Ukrainians until they give Vladimir Putin everything he wants. This would have several negative consequences. First, the loss of Ukraine (or a large part of it) would be as bad or worse for American prestige than the pullout from Afghanistan. Ukraine has proven itself to be a technologically innovative country as well as supplying a large part of the world’s food, even during the war. Removing this food from world markets would add to inflationary pressures.
Abandoning Ukraine would also send China a signal that America won’t stand by Taiwan, possibly sparking another war. China has had its eye on Taiwan since the Chinese Revolution. They are playing the long game and waiting for the right moment of Western weakness, a moment that Trump’s isolationist tendencies could bring. If Trump won’t supply American weapons for Ukrainians to fight, why should China think that he would send American soldiers to defend Taiwan?
Trump has also suggested that he would remove the sanctions from both Russia and Iran over concerns that they weaken the dollar. In reality, the dollar is strong and removing sanctions would strengthen the currencies of Russia and Iran. Trump has also advocated for a weak dollar, which is, of course, inflationary.
Even worse, there is a strong possibility that Trump would weaken NATO and possibly completely withdraw from the alliance. European nations see the threat from Russia even if Mr. Trump does not, but a weakened alliance could encourage Vladimir Putin to take other bites of Europe after he has digested Ukraine, risking a pan-European war.
A second Trump term might accomplish a few things, but for the most part, conservatives would have to be happy with Trump just not being Joe Biden or Kamala Harris. There will be no national abortion ban or major legislation because the country and Congress will be too divided and Trump is just not good at governing. The vaunted dealmaker is not good at the compromises from which legislative victories are made.
I’ll add that I would not expect a continuation of the good Federalist Society judges either. Too many FedSoc judges blocked Trump’s attempts to stay in power at the close of 2020. Trump-47 would not want principled judges. He will want loyalists. And thanks to Harry Reid and Mitch McConnell, there is no judicial filibuster to block bad judges.
And that reminds me, when Trump was last in office, he advocated nuking the filibuster entirely. Mitch McConnell didn’t play ball, but a new Republican Majority Leader might.
Nuking the filibuster might enable Republicans to pass some partisan legislation, but it would also contribute to an even larger voter backlash. And any gains would be temporary because Democrats would enact their own partisan bills as soon as they regain power, which probably wouldn’t take long.
The net result of another chaotic Trump Administration would be a continued Republican decline. Trump encourages bad candidates like Mark Robinson, who may be the only black man in America who supports slavery. I have to wonder how hard Republicans had to look to find such a person.
Bad Republican candidates mean one of two things: Democrats win elections that Republicans could have won, as in Robinson’s North Carolina gubernatorial race, or bad Republicans get entrenched in states like Alabama, where Tommy Tuberville will probably be in the Senate for decades. Neither is a good option for conservatives.
A second Trump Administration likely means Democratic control of the House and Senate. As with Trump’s first term, voters will quickly grow alarmed at his excesses and elect Democrats to hold him in check. There are signs that Democrats are marginalizing their radical wing and tacking to the middle. If this trend persists, and if voters grow tired of the Republican clown show, the GOP could find itself as a long-term minority.
But what if Trump loses? For starters, a Republican will almost certainly be elected in 2028. The only time a party has held the White House for a third consecutive term since the FDR-Truman Administrations was the two terms of Ronald Reagan followed by George Bush-41. And with Trump hopefully removed from the political scene, it might be time for that long-awaited conservative renaissance that we could have had in 2017. (That’s assuming that the party isn’t still stuck on stupid, nominating an 82-year-old Trump in 2028, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they did.)
In the meantime, Republicans could rediscover their conservative roots and build congressional majorities while growing the conservative bench in statehouses. Unless Kamala Harris proves to be much more popular and effective than Joe Biden, there will be good opportunities for midterm gains in 2026. That is assuming again that Donald Trump does not sabotage the midterms by endorsing more Mark Robinsons and Kari Lakes.
Republicans could also reach across the aisle to get things done to help the country. For instance, most Americans want Congress to pass immigration reform and work to reduce incidents of mass shootings. Acting like adults would probably help the party restore its image.
I think history could have been similarly different if Hillary Clinton had won in 2016. Republican congressional majorities would have limited any damage that Clinton could have done, and there is a good chance that she would have been better on foreign policy, trade, and the pandemic than Donald Trump. The odds are that Hillary would have been a one-term president and a Republican, probably an actual conservative, would be in office today.
In a situation where there are two bad options, it can make sense to let the other side have their preference. Let the opposition get their way and take the consequences of their bad choices. Similarly, if a recession is likely, it would benefit Republicans to let incumbent Democrats bear the brunt of the bad economic times. Of course, the risk is that the recent Goldman Sachs analysis that found Harris’s economic plan was more positive for the country than Trump’s would be born out in reality.
I disagree with Erick Erickson a lot these days, but a few weeks ago he said something that I can assent to. In a post on the platform formerly known as Twitter, Erickson wrote, “Sometimes, good stewardship means letting the field lie fallow for a greater harvest later.”
That’s where Republicans and conservatives are. The GOP is not going to get better if we keep electing Trump and MAGA candidates. Republicans need to lose – and lose badly and repeatedly – to make them realize that the country wants sane, honest conservatives.
To put it another way, when you make a wrong turn, you have to turn around and go back to find the right road. If you keep pushing ahead, you get more and more lost and further from where you need to be. You have to go back to go forward. Republicans have been on the wrong road since 2016, and keep saying, “We may be lost, but we are making great time!”
A Trump victory this year would be a short-term gain for Republicans but a long-term loss for conservatives. The more deeply entrenched MAGA loyalists become within the Republican Party and the government, the harder it will be to build a new conservative movement and the more dangerous and divisive politics will become. The rock-and-a-hard-place choice that we have had for the past few cycles will be permanent in the face of two Big Government parties, one on either side of the political spectrum.
On the other hand, a Harris victory is likely to be more of the same, and while that is not ideal, it also hasn’t been disastrous. The economy is recovering, our alliances are strong, and the country has returned to normalcy from the chaos of the Trump years.
If Harris is as ineffective as Republicans say, she not only can’t do much damage, but she should be easy to beat with a traditional Republican candidate in 2028. That would put the Republican Party back on the right track with tried-and-true conservative principles of limited government, constitutionalism, and practicality over personality. Hopefully, such a traditional Republican can be found when the time comes.
I asked you, David, once and I’ll ask again today, if you could explain to us what are the conservative policies that you would like implemented and how they are different from generic Democratic policies, and which of those Democratic policies you reject.
Because if you take Trumpism and Culture War out of the GOP, I believe that’s where most Americans, including the vast majority of Democrats, are.Report
I am not David but I would like to give a tiny answer:
It has to do with the difference between “generic Democratic policies” and “whatever crap the kids in the quad are yelling about this week”.
For example: Is picking Israel as ally over Palestine a culture war thing? Because there are a *LOT* of conservatives who pick Israel as an ally over Palestine.
How about changing official documents that talk about “Pregnant Women” to “Pregnant Persons”? “THAT’S CULTURE WAR STUFF!”, you may be tempted to say. I’d say “The point that you’re changing official documents moves it out of the category of culture war stuff.”
So all of the stuff that bleeds over from tumblr or the quad into official government policy is probably where the big differences are.
“Don’t change that! Leave things the way they are!” versus “No, we have to change it, and if you don’t want to change it, you’re the one who is politicizing it. You’re the one who is engaging in culture war!”Report
If one lives on X/Twitter or online in general, one might think the two examples you cite are A Thing. In the real world they are not.Report
brother, “Twitter isn’t real life” is increasingly a bitter-clinger attitude.Report
Israel vs. Palestine isn’t a thing in the real world?
As for “Pregnant persons”, I assure you, there is all sorts of stuff happening at the legislative level where that new terminology is being introduced and there are a surprising amount of people who spend all of their time in the real world that are responding as if they spent all of their time in a bubble (rather than in the real world).Report
So you oppose inclusive language because … reasons?Report
“This is happening.”
“Why are you opposed to this happening?”
Sigh.
Anyway, I recognize that the language change is a deliberate salvo in the culture war, even if you don’t.
I also recognize that being opposed to a change can be spun to be “politicizing” even as those making the change pretend that they aren’t politicizing at all.
And recognizing this probably is a bad move on the part of the people pushing changes… So they have to jump over the “this isn’t happening!” part of the argument to the “but it’s good that it’s happening” part.Report
I don’t use a person’s preferred pronouns, or inclusive language to gig conservatives. That would be the culture war reason to do so. I do it because it speaks to the dignity of the humans being so discussed/described. If you as a conservative leaning libertarian want to call it a deliberate escalation of the culture wars I suppose I can’t stop you. It just comes off as incredibly closed minded and petty.Report
It’s projection all the way down. They can’t imagine a non-culture-war reason for using a person’s preferred pronouns, which allows them to treat somebody’s using them and somebody else’s getting his panties into a twist over someone else’s using them as morally equivalent.Report
“I don’t do X to gig conservatives.”
I’m pretty sure that the complaint isn’t that you’re using X.
But I imagine if that’s how you have it framed in your head, it’d sound pretty crazy. “Why do they care what I type on my phone in my basement while I ignore the latest show on Netflix?”Report
Really, because that’s exactly what you wrote the complaint to be. Care to rewrite it clearly?Report
No, the complaint is, apparently, that English cops will get on a boat, cross the Atlantic, and bust people who don’t use someone’s preferred pronouns. Or at least that’s my best guess. But you never know.Report
Especially ironic since there is a story right now in WaPo about a woman whose trans daughter made the high school volleyball team, and the POLICE came to their door.
In Alabama, USA.
This isn’t the “Kids in the quad” fringe stuff, bur is the official policy position of conservatives.Report
Scroll up:
Colorado, for example, has passed a law that discusses “Pregnant People” rather than “Pregnant Women”.
“Why do you care?”
“This isn’t about me caring. It’s about how we’re switching from ‘that’s not happening’ to ‘but that’s good’.”Report
Are we not supposed to notice that when you find yourself in an awkward position, you pivot to haggling over semantics and meta issues ?
Like, you really, really don’t want to talk about the merits of pronouns or terms for pregnant people, so you jump to accusations of other people.Report
Would you prefer to discuss syntax?
If the argument that the Republican Party and the Democratic Party are cheek-to-cheek, the meta-issues describe where the differences are.
I don’t want to talk about the merits of pronouns.
But I do notice that the language has changed and anyone who objects to the change is the one who is “politicizing” rather than the people who made the change.Report
I don’t recall anyone saying that what you illustrate is not happening . . . . and even if that was the complaint it’s really weak almost transparent tea . . . .Report
See? We’re in “that’s good though!” territory!
“Why do you care?”
To repeat myself: “Don’t change that! Leave things the way they are!” versus “No, we have to change it, and if you don’t want to change it, you’re the one who is politicizing it. You’re the one who is engaging in culture war!”Report
Were all just saying the same thing, that conservatives don’t want to use people’s preferred pronouns.
Which would be one thing, but they also become apoplectic when government agencies do.Report
In the open mic channel you linked to a very strongly pro-Israeli plank in the platform of the Democratic Party, one that is representative of all of the Israeli relevant planks in the actual Democratic party as opposed to the imaginary one that is represented on twitter. I responded asking you if that plank surprised you and you seemed to elide that your only surprise was that it was present at all.
It seems, from this comment, that you were actually very surprised that the actual Democratic party is strongly pro-Israel, so surprised in fact that you somehow forgot that the Dems pick Israel as an ally over the Palestinians. Am I misreading you?Report
And I would go on to say that the majority of Democrats are “Pregnant Women” kinda people and not “Pregnant People” kinda women.
And the same for Israel vs. Lebanon or Israel vs. Gaza.
But the stuff that bleeds in from the campus quad is where the problem is.
“So all of the stuff that bleeds over from tumblr or the quad into official government policy is probably where the big differences are.”
I said that.Report
Uh huh and that is… *checks policy and dialogue from the actual Democratic party actors* … just about nil.Report
The imaginary Democrats are always worse than the actual Republicans.Report
It makes it so much easier to sigh in jaded disdain at both sides being equally irrational.Report
Sure, but now we’re no longer talking about the question that J_A asked but explaining that most Democrats aren’t like that, aren’t we?Report
In your response to J_A you presented a choice suggesting that Dems pick Palestine over Israel. I pointed out that this is not, remotely, true in any material way. Observing that there exist a handful of Democratic party members who’re pro-Palestinian doesn’t disprove that. Especially not considering that the party you present as “Pro Israel” plays host to some rabid fringers who’re ludicrously anti-Israel in a manner that’d make their Democratic counterparts blush in inadequacy, Jewish space lasers for example.
So is presenting something that’s nakedly inaccurate addressing J_A’s question? I submit that it is not.Report
There is this weird thing where when we say “Democrats”, we haven’t hammered down whether we mean “Members of Congress/The President” or “the people who show up to vote in November” or “the people on Instagram who talk about how important it is to vote for Biden because Trump is worse than Hitler”.
I mean Harris.
And the same for “Republicans”. The MAGA folks are quite different from, say, Dick Cheney.
And there are games that can be played when it comes to “the left” versus “the right”.
What is the official Right-Wing position on Israel?
Is it “Jewish Space Lasers” and MTG is representative of the *REAL* right wing?
Is MTG representative of The Right? Is she representative of MAGA and, therefore, The Republican Party as it exists today (and Prescott III is some weird outlier now)?
And I’ll go back and say that picking Israel over Palestine *IS* a culture war thing even as Biden’s White House sends more missiles over to Israel (even if there is a sternly-written card attached).
It’s the stuff that bleeds over into Official Policy from the dumb stuff in the quad where the problems are.
Even if there is no daylight between 90% of Republicans in congress and 90% of Democrats in congress.Report
But that still just doesn’t work Jay. You can point to an occasional Dem politician who’s hostile to Israel and I can point to an occasional Republican politician who’s the same. You can point to an internet group of lefties who’re hostile to Israel and I can point out the same on the right. And, yes, so far Democratic executive officials have been substantively supportive of Israel as have Republican ones. The only real difference between them is the Dems go “Hey that west bank coke you’re snorting is going to kill you eventually, as your friend I advise you to lay off it and wean yourself off it.” while the GOP ones go “Enjoy that coke, friend, I have an old book that says Jesus is going to pop out of your chest like Aliens when you finally OD so breathe deep!”
So, I still see no justification for you to characterize the Democratic Party as being somehow on the “hostile to Israel” side of the culture war divide. However you define it: Major Actors of the Formal Democratic Party; Minor Actors of the Formal Democratic Party or all the way down to folks who code kind of left on twittspace, it just isn’t accurate.Report
Democrats aren’t over the top performatively supporting anything. That’s the key.Report
I didn’t.
I did mention “whatever crap the kids in the quad are yelling about this week”.
To the extent that the one bleeds over into the other is where the problem is.
The democrats (temporarily defined here as “congresspeople”) had nothing to do with the occupation of the administration office last spring. Nothing.
But Democrats (defined here temporarily as social media influencers) did.
And it may be unfair to talk about Democrats as if they have anything to do with Democrats but, sadly, the Democrats didn’t do a good enough job gatekeeping during 2016 and now we’re in a weird place where Democrats and Democrats have less in common than they had a decade ago.Report
OKay fine, point at the occupations on the quad. I will note two things: first that they were -opposed- to “Genocide Joe” the Democratic President. And then, secondly, I will ask if you recall the folks chanting “The Jews will not replace us” as they demonstrated in Charlottesville and I’ll remind you they were demonstrating in favor of the Republican President at the time.Report
Sure! And the guys in Charlottesville are quite regularly given as reasons to oppose Trump! They’re a good reason to oppose Trump!
“If you vote for Trump, you’ll get more of this!” is an argument that makes sense!Report
Which leaves us back with my original complaint- that characterizing the Dems, or even liberals generally as “Picking Palestine over Israel” in the culture war is unmoored from reality.Report
It’s like if a poll says that 43% of Democrats prefer X and 35% of Democrats prefer Y that it’s unfair to say that Democrats prefer X.
And if the Republicans prefer X at a rate of 7% and Y at a rate of 80%, it’s not fair to say that they’re supporters of Y. Look at that 7%!
That said: There is a mooring.Report
So, firstly, by pointing at this polling you’re saying “It doesn’t matter what actual liberals or Democratic Party members do or say under their own names- these anonymous poll respondents are more representative. That strikes me as ludicrous.
But even if we stick to the fig leaf of this poll, you’re skipping past the polling question that directly checks attitudes towards the Israeli’s and Palestinians (Changes in Favorable Ratings of Israel and the Palestinian Authority, by Party ID) which shows the Dems overwhelmingly supporting Israel over the Palestinians (but having a reduced opinion of both vis a vis 2023) and, thus, contradicts your assertion. Instead, you’re skipping down to the poll question (Sympathies in the Middle East Situation by Party ID and Age) which is both far more ambiguously worded and also is specifically about present matters and basically acts as a question of whether Dems approve of Bibi fishin’ Netanyahu who, I would like to remind you, has been pissing on Dems and nakedly supporting Trump* for years now. That’s really weak tea.
*Which, I’d also point out, is ludicrously and insanely against Israel’s own long term interests and beneficial only to one Bibi Netanyahu’s welfare.Report
these anonymous poll respondents are more representative.
“More” representative?
I probably wouldn’t say “more” but I do see them as “representative enough to bring them up in a discussion of differences between the two “sides”.”
There are areas where the two “sides” are not, in fact, cheek to cheek and given that they agree on so very much elsewhere, that makes the areas where they differ a little more stark.Report
Well I will grant that the two sides have very different opinions on Netanyahu and if you’d worded it that way we wouldn’t have a problem. But you, instead, said Israel vs the Palestinians and, as I pointed out, your poll actually specifically asks about opinions on Israel vs Palestinians and those numbers don’t support what you’re saying. So even on your own poll terms the assertion is incorrect.Report
So the question “In the Middle East situation, are your sympathies more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?” isn’t good enough?
Fair enough.
I guess the argument that there’s a difference between the two parties is unmoored.Report
In answering the question of “Does a given party pick Israel or Palestine to favor” the poll question “Which side do you favor, Israel and Palestine?” strikes me as a LOT more germaine than “Who do you sympathize with more in the current situation?”Report
Is it worth comparing the two parties answers’ to that question? Or are we just going to say that the numbers are obviously on Israel’s side and, therefore, there aren’t any moors worth mentioning?Report
To which Question? Certainly the GOP is slightly more totally and unconditionally supportive in this polling than the Dems are which brings us back to the question of what friend is the better friend- the intervening “dude you’re going to kill yourself” friend or the “go ahead and do all the coke you want” friend? The GOP, of course, sympathizes with Netanyahu more that the Dems do, of course, since Netanyahu has been trying to turn Israel into a partisan question in the US; an act of colossal political stupidity.Report
“The GOP”
This feels like a smooshing again.
The polling wasn’t of the GOP but of hoi polloi out there. I would agree that there is more overlap between the Republicans and the Republicans on Israel than the Democrats have with the Democrats, I don’t think that the Republicans accurately reflect the Republicans.
Though, I’ll grant, they do a better job than the Democrats do with the Democrats.Report
Or… and consider this carefully.. that noisy visible left wing minority you keep saying is “the Democrats” aren’t actually the Democrats and might be… stay with me here… a small noisy visible left wing minority?
Because the Democrats, as in the party, its politicians, etc… have been pro-Israel for quite some time and the Democrats, as in the actual voters who nominate and elect and fund the Democratic Party sure seem to be okay with that.Report
I imagine that the noisy visible left wing minority, when polled, would call itself “independent” instead of a member of Democrats, right?
I’m willing to run with how they self-identify in the poll.Report
Or arguably Green or something else I suppose.Report
if people knew the full extent to which our politicians (on both sides) kowtow to israel they’d be bothered. no one voting is okay with that.Report
Was there a campus occupation at CUCS? It’s much more representative than Columbia or UCLA.
I’m guessing you LOVED debate team in high school and/or college. For the sake of your family and friends I hope you get all that shit out of your system on this site.Report
Nah. UCCS was dull. The administration has a rule about overnight encampments.
Colorado College had one, though!Report
As far as I can tell, Team Blue (Biden’s administration) have been trying to pressure Israel to “not escalate” and trying to defuse the war.
Neither Hamas nor Israel want to end the war, they both want to win it.
The US’s “pressure” largely consists of words, not actions.
I’m not sure what Team Red’s position is. More support for Israel I guess, but honestly there’s not a lot of room there other than not finger wagging.
The only concern I have over Team Blue is they’ll paint themselves into a corner with all this “we’re going to pressure Israel to not ‘escalate'” stuff.
Suggesting that they could withhold arms and then being ignored might force them to actually withhold arms.
The over arching problems/issues are:
1) Iran is trying (successfully) to disrupt the region. Russia is somewhat helping because it wants to distract the US from Europe.
2) Israel is a lot more willing to see terrorists as existential threats and behave accordingly.Report
I don’t have any particular quibble with your analysis at all. I just object to Jays original assertion that put Dems and liberals in the “Picking Palestine as an ally in culture war matters” bucket which, I still insist, is nakedly and ludicrously inaccurate. IReport
“Uh huh and that is… *checks policy and dialogue from the actual Democratic party actors* … just about nil.”
And the soda ban was only on some sizes of soda and it was rescinded right away so I don’t know why anyone thought there would even be a problem!Report
Sure, sure, DD except the Soda Ban you’re referring to is actually more substantive since it was actually, ya know, enacted by a politician into policy whereas this imaginary Democratic hostility to Israel is, of course, imaginary and has no accompanying policy plank that’s being campaigned on by the Dems, let alone any substantive law or regulation in any prospect of being enacted.
Though, on the other hand, your Soda ban example was proposed by a Republican (Bloomberg) and only carried on by a Dem later until the courts (rightfully) knocked it down.Report
Much overlooked is why it was struck down. It was struck down on the theory that NYC’s Department of Health couldn’t do it by regulation. If the City Council had legislated on the matter, that would have been very different, and might well have been upheld.Report
That is an interesting point I hadn’t even considered. That’sReport
If this blog had existed in 1967, or 1987, there’d have been a WWII generation or Boomer Jaybird saying the exact same things about anti-Vietnam War or anti-Apartheid protests.Report
People like to memory hole the fact that MLK was on the same side as the hippies who broke in and occupied the deans office.Report
They like to memory hole most things about him.Report
See? Stuff goes from “that’s only on the college campuses!” to “everybody knows this!” in a generation!
People *AGREE* with this point I’m making! They just think “why are you describing reality?” instead of “you’re wrong!”Report
And people push back so hard against them precisely because they don’t want these things to become accepted truths in a generation. See also that Coates article and the comparison to slavery and segregation.Report
See, I think the South African parallel is accurate in some ways but doesn’t really bode well for any ‘side.’ The book on SA is that the critics of the white apartheid government were right. And no matter how much they built, how much they tried to create something like a normal, 1st world, “democratic” country, they couldn’t do it. Apartheid made it inherently illegitimate, authoritarian, and abusive.
But this is where it’s worth continuing the story. As best as I can tell, the critics of the ANC were also mostly right. Behind Mandela they turned out to be incompetent, corrupt, and enamored with all kinds of discredited Eastern Bloc and other group rights nonsense. The result is that they’ve been unable to pick up and run the civil infrastructure inherited from the old racist regime, and it’s all starting to collapse, just as the political system is itself regressing. So of course no one in the West talks about South Africa anymore, as if it just disappeared in the late 90s.
Now I happen to think there is a decent chance something like that happens with Israel/Palestine too. But it would be very strange to me to call that outcome vindication for anyone, not in a positive way.Report
There are two things here: getting rid of the Apartheid system was an unequivocal good, as would be ending the Occupation. The government that followed was not great, and has gotten worse, for a variety of reasons, and that is bad. It’s entirely possible that any post-Occupation government will be bad.Report
There’s the Deontological Good that is unequivocal and the Unitarian Good that is Complicated and, technically, not over yet so we can’t really measure it (maybe it’ll turn out okay and the critics will be proven wrong at the end of the day).Report
The Pro-Palestinian faction in American politics messed up big time by being unable to agree to a few simple rules to speak at the DNC. They explicit stated they want to spoil the good mood. Sympathy for the Palestinians in the Democratic Party has been highest now than ever but I don’t think the Democratic Party likes the Pro-Palestinian faction in American politics that much because they are annoying and refuse to play the game.Report
I agree, but that is because most of the Pro-Palestinian faction in American politics exists primarily in the gauzy realm of online media.Report
Or they happen to be actual Muslims and don’t really get the limits they are operating under.Report
Most actual Muslims with skin in the game have no control over the terrorists or “governments” that purport to act in their name do nor over the Israeli’s that actually control their day to day do. So, there’s no cost at all to them shooting off their mouths on the internet or to pollsters .Report
or maybe they’re regular people bothered that a foreign lobby has been steering our congress’ policies for the last 20 yearsReport
We can sharpen this a bit by listing possible dividing lines between conservatives and MAGAs:
Would a conservative be comfortable addressing a trans person by their preferred pronoun?
Would a conservative support widespread and easily obtainable contraception?
Would a conservative be willing to acknowledge that American history up to the present has been marked by deeply engrained racism?Report
Would a conservative be comfortable with a law making it illegal to address a trans person by anything other than their preferred pronoun?
Would a conservative support the “Allowing Greater Access to Safe and Effective Contraception Act,” introduced by Republicans in the U.S. Congress in 2015 and reintroduced in 2017?
Would a conservative be willing to point at a country that has not been marked by deeply ingrained racism or would he chicken out?Report
(The answer is “Iceland”.)Report
Would a conservative be comfortable with a law making it illegal to address a trans person by anything other than their preferred pronoun?
Would anybody? Probably not. As far as I know, there’s no law against calling someone a n****r and, for all practical purposes, nobody is proposing one. You can get into trouble for mistreating co-workers or employees or students, and calling them n****rs could be a part of that, but that’s a different issue.Report
It’s actually illegal in England. The police come to your house and everything!Report
Huh?Report
They have news articles about it.Report
Even a quick scan of that article will tell you that it wasn’t about the pronouns (or at least, not “just” about the pronouns), and a quick search will tell you that no such law exists.Report
However, in America if a woman has a miscarriage, police WILL come to her house.
And again, conservatives seem oddly untroubled by this.Report
The difference between “that’s not true!” and “the Republicans are worse!” probably feels less than perfectly satisfactory.
Even if it is true that the Republicans are worse from some perspectives.Report
I think it’s great that you are willing to grudgingly admit that being thrown in prison for an unexplained miscarriage is worse (in some perspectives) than being scolded by HR for misgendering a person.
Really shows growth.Report
Oh, my example was HR, was it?
I also suspect that another reason for reticence is the whole belief that the other side is strategically less than forthright.Report
Oh, well then let me select a.matching counterpart to your example.
Would a conservative be comfortable.with a law that allows a woman to be killed by her father for immodesty?
It actually happens! They have news articles about it!Report
I think that the move you’re making is a variant of “Patriarchy is conservative and Honor Cultures are conservative and therefore Republicans, who are, under the American system, conservative should support Honor killings.”
Is that accurate?Report
No I was being sarcastic.
I don’t need to reach across to the other side of the world to find an example of my opponents craziness.Report
Yeah, it’s under the umbrella of “hate incidents”.
“It’s not against the law to misgender, it’s against the law to engage in hate speech.”
“Is misgendering ‘hate speech’?”
And now we’re in the weeds, aren’t we?Report
Ah yes, there’s a law against something else, which has never, to either of our knowledge, resulted in someone getting in trouble for using the wrong pronouns, but it could happen, if a certain set of conditions hold in the future, so we might as well say now that they have laws against misgendering.
Strong ” If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the [English] people” vibes.Report
“resulted in getting in trouble”
The cops showing up at your house isn’t “getting in trouble”?
Wait. Dang. We’re in the weeds.Report
Except the cops didn’t show up because she used the wrong pronouns. Your own articles says that, as I noted above, and you seemed to acknowledge subsequently. I don’t know why we’d go in a circle in which you say it happened, I point out it didn’t happen, you agree, I say “So you just made it up,” and then you say, “Not at all, because it happened.”
Perhaps you have another example?Report
Eh, the article says “it’s not just the misgendering” so, yeah. Okay.
It’s not just the misgendering.Report
Jaybird, you do understand that plenty of speech is prohibited in England, right?
Here in the US we have something called the first amendment, which applies unless the speech is something Republicans don’t like, at which point they will happily pass lately unconstitutional laws against it and hope they get Republican judges.Report
Meanwhile, in Florida,schools are forbidden from teaching students about contraception.
Conservatives seem very comfortable with this.Report
Literally the only political party that has tried to outlaw addressing people by one pronoun or another, including _themselves_, is the Republican Party.
Multiple times.
Missouri is currently trying to make it a felony that put you on the sex offender watch list.Report
Somehow my question became an exchange between (mainly) Jaybird on one side and several others on the other side. Jaybird apparently defined conservatism as calling a trans person only by their (assigned at) birth pronouns, and supporting Israel over Palestinians.
Since actual Democrats in a position of power support Israel over Palestinians, or at least support Palestinians less than they support the Israeli government, I have to conclude that, as per Jay it’d, if only trans people would go away, all conservatives would be Democrats, or at least indifferent between the two.
Because that would be a caricature of conservatives, after 50 plus comments I still do not know what policies conservatives other than Jaybird would want to implement that are different from what President Mayor Pete will be pursuing after January 2033.
Perhaps David has a take that’s different from Jaybird’s. Or perhaps I’ll see him in Mayor Pete’s campaign in 2032.Report
Jaybird apparently defined conservatism as calling a trans person only by their (assigned at) birth pronouns, and supporting Israel over Palestinians.
That is not how I defined Conservativism, but wanted to make a distinction between Republicans and Democrats and the stupid kids in the quad.
Republicans and Democrats have a *LOT* of overlap when it comes to both of the examples I gave. (Some Democrats differ, of course.)
If it was just about the Republicans vs. Official Democratic Policy, there wouldn’t be much daylight between the two positions, would there?
But, sometimes, the stuff from tumblr bleeds into Official Democratic Policy. And that’s where the tension is.
I’d guess that you think that the Democratic leadership needs to listen *MORE* to the kids on the quad. Fair enough. I imagine that there are a handful of Democrats (exceptions, to be sure) that agree with you.
And I’d say that that is where the difference is.
“I still do not know what policies conservatives other than Jaybird would want to implement that are different from what President Mayor Pete will be pursuing after January 2033.”
I’m not particularly conservative.
I just find different things offensive about them than you do.Report
What are you talking about? There is a large gulf between the stated positions of both parties.
It’s just both those positions are pretty far to the right of where you are pretending them to be.
It’s weird how you don’t say those things.Report
I do, sometimes. It results in “how dare you find *THAT* offensive?” conversations and I have tired of those.Report
Abortions in the US have increased by 8% since Dobbs. During the eight years of the Obama administration they declined by 30%.Report
Care to cite your sources?Report
Stats and some guesses as to the cause from Guttmacher:
https://www.guttmacher.org/2024/03/despite-bans-number-abortions-united-states-increased-2023Report
Thanks – useful data all around. Useful to note that much of the increase has been in states where its legal – strongly suggesting people fleeing states where it’s not. Which is to be expected. The one thing I think they miss – which is related – is what’s the trend in access to birth control?Report
This is where I hate to yell you but… Trumpism is conservatism now. I understand there are a lot of people in the right of center camp that aren’t particularly enamored with it for whatever reason. But until someone else takes over the ship that is the Republican party, or gets something else instead as the animating force of movement conservatism, then the two will remain one and the same.Report
I’m going to defend David a bit by pointing out that his point stands despite what you say being right. Trump may well be (and I say is) what conservativism is now; but the path to that changing starts with Trump losing.Report
I’d say that Trump constitutes a strong rejection of the whole Neoconservative/Neoliberal New Order thing that Buckley did his best to wrangle until the wrangling stopped working around… 2006?
The Populists haven’t had a home for a long, long time.
But they have one now. I think that the Republican party will remain the New-And-Improved “Stupid Party”.
I don’t think that Prescott III will be able to wrangle it back.Report
On the one hand I think you may well be correct but on the other hand there are structural reasons why you (and I) could be proven wrong.
Specifically… money. The money wing of the GOP is very real, very rich and very not changing. These are the people who have money, want more of it and care little for much else beyond that consideration which means they care deeply about taxes and very conditionally about regulation*. They don’t command votes directly but they carry a lot of intellectual heft- they virtually own libertarian discourse, for instance, which, until Trump, meant they also owned the entire right wing brain trust.
Now Trump and the populists are bucking that trend but they’re also so nakedly corrupt or inept (or both!) that there isn’t, really, a very concrete ideology that stands in opposition to the republitarian default that the money wing of the GOP embodies. Neocon foreign policy, note, is a seperate and very feeble wing that is discredited and used as an opportunistic stick to hit Dems with but is, when the rubber hits the road, mostly defunct.
So, with the alternative right wing ideologies incoherent and undermined the money wing still rules the roost whatever mouth noises the party otherwise makes. The money wing isn’t going to go Democratic (if they were they’d have joined the large corporate Dem** contingent long ago) and they have every reason to believe that when Trumpism burns out they’ll be left ruling the ashes.
*Not like libertarians but as in “if this regulation makes me money I like it and if it impedes me from making money then I hate it and it’s the devils’ dandruff.”
**Basically people who care about money most of all but take a longer view saying “we’ll have a lot less money if we provoke an uprising of the proles, an authoritarian takeover or a deficit crisis so we have to swallow a certain degree of taxation, regulation and redistribution.”Report
The largest backers of.Trump/Vance are Elon.Musk and Peter Thiel.
Can someone.describe.for.me how.these billionaires.are.bucking the money wing of the GOP?Report
Trump made some pretty speeches about protecting social security and Medicare in the 2016 Republican primaries. He has administrated as a very orthodox Republican though.Report
Musk doesn’t appear to be thinking mainly in money terms anymore. He’s crossed over into culture warring spurred, it seems, primarily by his conflict with his child. He’s Culture!Right rather than Money!Right now.
Thiel seems to be a more complicated question. He might just be Money!Right making culture noises or he might be drinking his own kool-aid.Report
The money wing remains GOP but the Republicans have realized that they have a *LOT* of wiggle room when it comes to being better than the Dems on taxes.
“How’s this? We’ll ignore the topic” is a better deal than AOC has on offer.Report
Sure, but unfortunately for the money wing AOC represents the left most fringe of the Democratic Party, not its actual operational or even ideological position.Report
The mental difference between “that’s a strawman!” and “that only happened once!” is important to the handful of people out there who don’t believe that “slippery slope” is a fallacy.Report
I didn’t call it a strawman and would, rather, call it an exaggeration if it’s intentional or, if as I suspect you’re just getting a bit twitter brained, just misunderstanding that social media is not meatspace.Report
I know you didn’t. You didn’t because you know that it isn’t one.
But there are people who believe that pivoting from “nobody is saying that” to “only crazy people are saying that” to “only one or two congresspeople are saying that” should all have the same persuasive power.
And maybe there is a subset of people to whom it is.
How many Donors are in this subset?Report
Some, but if it’s just a question of money then I’m entirely unconcerned. The Dems are doing fine for money because most donors, big and small, recognize their party for that it is.Report
Then maybe the rest of the Republican donors will be able to wander over there too.
Cheney did, after all.Report
They won’t, of course, because they’re money republicans. They’d support anyone so long as said person was promising tax cuts.Report
And I’m saying that they don’t have to promise tax cuts anymore.
They merely can get away with “we’ll keep the status quo… what are you going to do, vote for the other guys?”
And then laugh.
(There are precedents.)Report
And, again, who cares? The Dems aren’t hard up for money and the donors who want tax cuts no matter what aren’t going to come over to them for any policy position any sane Dem would offer. And rest assured the GOP is still promising tax cuts and likely always will.Report
I’M NOT THE ONE WHO BROUGHT UP THE MONEY WING, NORTH!Report
Sure. But my point is that the money wing on the right can’t move to the Dems because the Dems could never offer enough to move them without becoming the right (and would/should never wish to do that).
Since the money wing remains immutably on the right, internally ideologically coherent and powerful in money, if not in votes, there’ll always be a gravitational force pulling the right/GOP towards some bastardized libertarian plutocratic ideal that comports with the money wings goals. To resist that force would require an ideological consistency and voter popularity that I don’t think Trumpism currently offers.Report
Authoritarian regimes don’t even need or want an ideology.
They insist upon a bargain: You can do anything you want so long as you don’t anger The Boss.
See Disney, Florida, for reference.Report
Their ability to stay beyond the one authoritarian figure depends on ideology. The discussion in this subthread is whether Republitarian money men have a plausible hope of reclaiming control of the GOP/Right the way they had a grip on it from 08 through to around 2020.
While I agree with Jay that the money men are not likely to easily gain total control again I was attempting to explore, as an intellectual exercise, why it remains a live if unlikely possibility.Report
I’m not disagreeing.
In ideological terms, “Do what you want” translates into libertarians.
But as with all repressive regimes, the ideology always takes a back seat to the desires of the regime.Report
Looking at the fundraising for the last couple of months… I think that there are tradeoffs that the money is willing to make.
Are the Dems? Like, could the dems do the thing where they say that they wanted to raise taxes, they really did, but the darn filibuster prevented the bill from going through?
Because I could easily see donating money to a party that merely won’t raise taxes. Plus I get to brag that I donated to Harris the next time I show up at my alma mater.Report
Ehhh… I’m not in the room with the rights Money wing but my understanding is that they view taxes remaining as is as an intolerable state of affairs. They want cuts and specifically they want cuts that affect them. The wealthy who can be bought off with promises of taxes being “reasonable” or not moving much are either swing voters or are already part of the Dems very influential and large corporate supporters block.Report
Certainly true. It just seems to me like we’ve been waiting for that big defection for a while now, and if it’s happening it isn’t showing up in the polls or other indicators.
But hey maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised in November. Nothing would be sweeter (or better for the country, conservatism, everyone) than, I dunno, Harris getting North Carolina’s electoral votes because the combination of Trump and Robinson is just too nuts for the state’s Republican voters.Report
God(ess?) if fishing only. NC would be just the chefs kiss.Report
Fair point, North, but that’s taking Trump at his word that if he loses this election he’ll not run again in 2028. About 80% of me doesn’t believe that.Report
The counter argument is he said he wouldn’t run in 2024.
The counter argument to that is I’m not sure how he runs from inside of jail.Report
True, but even if the path to recovery is Trump losing and then losing again the first step, still is Trump losing.Report
Trumpism is conservatism now but that needs to change. There will always be many people with “don’t rock the boat” political instincts. “Don’t rock the boat” can be channeled in a good way like “don’t mess things up” or “don’t make a bad situation worse” or it can be harnessed in a bad way like what the Radical Right does.Report
Conservatism isn’t defined by whatever the majority of Republican voters want, even insofar as the masses even have coherent policy preferences. It would be more accurate to say that the US no longer has a conservative party among the top two. For that matter, it doesn’t have a liberal party among the top two, either.Report
Then what is it defined by? Certainly not a coherent and historically consistent set of principles or policies. Perhaps it’s a collection of different psychological states: the Russian peasant who fears all change, even if it appears to be in their interest, because of the fear that things will get worse, the leather chair and port Burkean who is OK with things more or less as they are and not averse to a little change as long as everybody is quiet about it and they get to keep their leather chairs and port. Or is it, simply, defined by what the people who call themselves that are?Report
I’d say that it’s defined by this chart:
Report
OK, so that’s you. Anyone else out there have anything?Report
I, too, wonder if anyone else has anything.
Is there an answer that you were hoping that someone else would give and you’re waiting for that one?Report
No.Report
Well, let’s see if anybody else has an answer with more explanatory power.
We can wait together for a different answer to the question you asked.Report
Where I come from, that’s normal behavior, and, therefore, unworthy of comment.Report
Oh, in my neck of the woods, it presents identically to hoping for a more convenient answer to show up.Report
Strange place you live in. I don’t have a dog in this notional fight, so no answer is “more convenient” for me. I’m happy to listen to anyone who is willing to say some definite thing and make an articulate, understandable argument for it.Report
“Then what is it defined by?” isn’t answered by the chart?
Fair enough.
Let’s see if someone else has an answer for you.Report
I’m happy to listen to anyone who is willing to say some definite thing and make an articulate, understandable argument for it.Report
I can’t help you with “understandable”.Report
I agree entirely, but probably for different reasons.Report
I’ve read this paper, part of a few decades of consistent findings in political psychology showing that “liberals” (in the American political sense) are universalists, more open to experience, have lower need for control, etc., while conservatives are more “parochial,” have lower tolerance for novel experiences, more need for control, etc. Conservatives have generally pushed back on this research, and Haidt in particular has argued that it reflects liberal biases in the social/behavioral sciences. I think this might be the first instance I’ve seen of someone on the right using it as an accurate description of the psychological differences between liberals and conservatives.
It would be interesting to see an argument from the right on how this specific difference (or the broader differences identified in political psychological research) is causally related to differences in political values and policy preferences.Report
Me too.Report
I think this might be the first instance I’ve seen of someone on the right using it as an accurate description of the psychological differences between liberals and conservatives.
It’s not. But okay.
It would be interesting to see an argument from the right on how this specific difference (or the broader differences identified in political psychological research) is causally related to differences in political values and policy preferences.
In the short term, I’d be cool with whether it’s coherent and has predictive power.
Like, if we took it and applied it to stuff, would it be better than a coinflip on predicting positions on this or that hot button issue?Report
It’s not. But okay.
It’s the first instance I’ve seen. Every other time I’ve seen this research discussed on the right, it’s been critical. Doesn’t mean that no one else on the right agrees with it.
And to the extent that we can trust the research, we know that the political psychology research on psychological differences between liberals and conservatives has predictive power, because that’s what they do in a bunch of those studies, so I’m less interested in talking about predictive power than causal relations between the psychology and the positions.Report
Well, the main mistake that I see conservatives make when they talk about this data is the same mistake that I see when I see liberals talk about it.
Heck, it’s the same mistake that I see with the Big 5.
Everybody keeps assigning some sort of moral value to it.
Like low openness is immoral or high agreeableness is moral.
I mean, I imagine that high openness would see low openness as immoral (or vice-versa) and the same for all the way around the chart.
But it’s not. It’s a matter of taste.
But, anyway, if we agree that the research is a good starting point (assuming that it’s pretty good) and that it does, in fact, explain the difference between liberals and conservatives…
Well, I’d say that we’ve got an answer to CJ’s original question: “Then what is it defined by?”Report
I’m glad you’re satisfied, but the question was addressed to Brandon, and those like him who identify as conservative and find themselves uncomfortable or embarrassed by actual, existing self-identified conservatives whose votes they need to get whatever it is they want. Presumably, there is some set of principles or policies they think they adhere to that separates them from their vulgar fellow travelers. and I’d like to know what they say they are.
When all is said and done, it may be that there’s no there there, and it’s just a matter of people having certain psychological traits naturally leaning toward whatever codes as “conservative” in the current year. I had a similar thought when I was in high school, but connecting that to whatever conservatism “really” is, if anything, is tricky and I’d like to hear what the conservatives who want to separate themselves from the great unwashed have to say.Report
To be clear, I don’t know that it explains the differences between liberals and conservatives. For one, I don’t think liberalism and conservatism lie on a single line, but are multi-dimensional. For another, I’m generally skeptical of social psychological research, because, well, social psychology has given us a lot of reasons to be skeptical. But I’m definitely willing to entertain them as possible explanations; I’m just not clear on the causal relationships between personality and policy, particularly in an age of mass media and propaganda.Report
Fair enough.
I’m willing to wait with you and CJ for another, better, explanation to come along.Report
This is a good point, that our political orientations aren’t on a straight line, and further, most of this sort of essentialism misses that the traits that Haidt talks about can express themselves in different ways leading to almost any political ideology.
For example, I am dispositionally conservative; Preferring stability and the preservation of order.
But…which order?
The order of the New Deal era, or the order of the Gilded Age?
By preferring the preservation of Social Security and Medicare, does that make me conservative or liberal?
The old stereotype of conservatives as wanting to resist change doesn’t apply any more and hasn’t really applied in our lifetimes.
The policy preferences of the Trumpists and SCOTUS is not the preservation of the status quo, but the breakup of the status quo in favor of something different, something very few have ever experienced.Report
I generally prefer to talk about conservatism and liberalism entirely in the context of specific political systems. For example, in the American system, Republicans vs Democrats, a dyad that looks different in many ways from the Tory-Labor system in the UK, and very different from the political systems in many other countries where you might have a far left labor party, a far left green party, a center left party, a center right party, a basically fascist far right party, and maybe other far right or center right/left parties.
In the American context, the binary division between “conservatives” and “liberals” isn’t that old: within living memory (within most of our lifetimes, I suspect), conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans weren’t that uncommon, and the splits and realignments of the 40s, 50s, and 60s were still taking shape into the 90s. Only in the last 40 or so years has the increasingly firm political division become an increasingly clear cultural division. I would not be surprised to learn that these fairly new divisions were highly correlated with the personality and political psych findings. It would be interesting to see how the studies they’re doing in political psych labs today would have come out in, say, 1950, or even 1995.
On top of this, of course, you have political outsiders: the libertarians who used to frequent this place, e.g., or anti-capitalist leftists, both groups with a pretty wide variety of political ideas and personality types.Report
You might find this article interesting, documenting the increasing disconnection between income and education as determinants of voting:
Brahmin Left Versus Merchant Right: Changing Political Cleavages in 21 Western Democracies, 1948-2020
https://academic.oup.com/qje/article/137/1/1/6383014Report
Ah yes, I know that one. Didn’t expect to see Piketty cited here, though. It’s a good paper. Have you read any of his books? Capital in the 21st Century will probably be one of the most influential books of the first decades of the 21st century, but if you haven’t read Capital and Ideology or A Brief History of Inequality, which are both much easier than Capital, I recommend them.Report
It would be interesting to see how the studies they’re doing in political psych labs today would have come out in, say, 1950, or even 1995.
Anecdotally, a bunch of the hard rock, drug-using, sexually… flexible adults I knew in the 90s were politically conservative, and often extremely so. It seemed incongruent to me even then, because they were so rebellious in their personal lives, but thought of liberals as commies.Report
When you write “politically conservative”, what do you mean by that? Do you mean they thought there should be laws banning the hard rock, drugs, and sexual flexibility they were indulging in, or do you mean something else?
Because I’ll point to the Hell’s Angels when Hunter Thompson was writing about them and how they too favored hard rock, drugs, and sexual flexibility, and how they too proved to be conservative sorts when it came to government policies regarding fiscal matters, immigration, and national defense.Report
I mean they probably voted for Reagan twice, thought Democrats were pinko commies, were anti-“welfare” and pro-fiscal conservatism, and hated PC culture, so politically very similar to non-Trumpy conservatives today, mutatis mutandis.Report
(“hating PC culture” was liberal-coded in the 1990s)Report
That is almost an unfathomably bad chart.
Why is it a heatmap instead of just a line graph? It’s a one-dimensional set of values of 16 linear points! Heatmaps are for two dimensions sets of values, not one!
Why does the ‘heatmap’ go to the top right? Does that mean something? Is it just to make it less obvious that this should been a linear graph, which we could have noticed if it went straight left or right?
Why is it surrounded in blue? What does that blue mean…for example, what does the blue _outside all the circles_ at the top right mean? That both liberals and conservatives care some somewhat about a hypothetical multiverse?
Also, if I’m looking at circle four, what point in that circle should I look at? The highest one? But if it’s a heatmap, it’s averaging things, right, it could be getting heat from the point next to it, that’s why the points fade to nothing on the sides.
What the hell is even going on here? Is this even a proper heatmap? I don’t actually think it is!
On top of all that nonsense, why is the heatmap scaled differently for conservatives and liberals? That seems a little sneaky, mostly because if it wasn’t like that, conservatives and liberals would appear to care the same amount about the center stuff, and liberals would just care _more_ about the outside stuff.
And last of all: There is no way this heatmap is correct. It argues that liberals care more about aliens trees than all humans. Which, and I know a lot of people have different political views and some people don’t think higher of liberals, but I think I can pretty solidly claim that absolutely _no one_ here believes liberals think that. Not just that no liberals do think that, but no one here even thinks they possibly could.Report
If you’d like to read the original Nature paper, you can do so here.
From the paper:
Report
So reading that, it’s pretty clear just how bad that heatmap is at conveying the meaning of anything.
Moreover, it demonstrates exactly how bad just asking people to just _define_ their moral concern works…or, at least, with liberals.
You can’t just _ask_ people to assign moral weight tokens to things. People will answer exactly how they think they are supposed to answer. (And it get really horrible when you realize conservatives thinks they are supposed to do the sociopathic answer of ‘My entire moral concern is my close friends, everyone else can FOAD’.)
You have to ask them _hypothetical questions_.
The almost definitive example of this is animal testing. A huge chunk of people disapprove of it in the abstract, but if you ask them ‘Would you be okay with a thousand monkeys getting sick and dying if it cures a human disease that kills thousands a year?’, almost everyone will say yes. Liberals and conservatives.
Of course liberals are going to pick the correct answer of ‘all life in the entire universe is of moral concern’ if you just vaguely ask them to assign moral weight. Try asking them about smallpox, a living thing that literally no human being on the face of the planet has an opposition to wiping out. Turn out that that the wellbeing of smallpox is absolutely no moral concern to them at all!
This is utter nonsense as any sort of serious study…except showing, very clearly, what the various political ideologies think they _should_ be answering.Report
People will answer exactly how they think they are supposed to answer.
So maybe both conservatives and liberals are lying and just answering the way their peer groups probably would want them to?
While that may be true, we’re measuring what their peer groups would probably indicate which is measuring something less interesting, but still interesting.Report
I feel ‘lying’ is a strong word there.
As we are well aware here, people often answer vague political questions differently then they do when faced with actual questions about policy.
The same is true of any philosophy. In fact, those often overlap…it’s pretty much the standard gotcha to point out that pro-life people, when actually asked ‘Would you save two IVF embryos that are going to be implanted tomorrow, or a single adult human’, will pause and usually admit ‘the single adult human’.
People have all sorts of broad ideas that they _think_ they believe, and will assert they believe, and then will fall apart completely in hypotheticals. (You don’t even have to go all the way to real life! Just directed hypotheticals.)
Which is why it is nearly utterly useless to just vaguely ask people ‘What do you value?’. It’s why you have to ask comparison questions.
Hell, it’s why we invented the trolley problem, which technically about a different moral question (Is it ethical to purposefully do something that kills someone if it save more other people), but that one people _also_ tend to answer one way in the abstract and one way when at the hypothetical. (Specifically, they say it’s morally okay to sacrifice one person in the abstract if it saves multiple others, but become _incredibly_ reluctant to say they will would pull the switch and directly kill someone.)
You can’t just say ‘Hey, answer this abstract moral question’ and expect any answers.
…although it really is interesting how readily conservatives will just say they will throw people they know, but are not good friends with, under the bus, a thing which is probably not actually true (1), but their constructed moral outlooks says it should be.
1) As evidenced by the trolley problem, empathy makes it pretty hard for people to directly allow people they are interacting with to suffer unless they can come up with some justification that the person should suffer, _even if_ their moral code says it is best. It’s why the trolley problem exists, it’s why the absolute best way of getting through to people about LGBTQ issues is for them to know an LGBTQ person, etc, etc.Report
Ah wait, I see you’ve read it down here, sorry.Report
Incidentally, if I was just looking at the conservative one, I would suspect the reason they did it as a nearly-unreadable heatmap is to disguise the fact that conservatives appear to stop caring about people as soon as they hit ‘distant friends’, which actually makes them sound a little sociopathic and self-centered.
However, considering how completely bugnuts the _liberal_ side is, with liberal moral thought supposedly mostly focused on _aliens_ (A thing that literally no actual humans include in their moral calculus, for obvious reasons.) I suspect this entire thing is nonsense.Report
The paper talks about how that shows the results of an artificial constraint. It goes on to explain:
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See, I have to flatly disagree with this:
I don’t disagree with what is stated as the results, but the study does not show this, because what they have measured is not empathy. What they have measured is _what level of the abstract concept of empathy people think they should show_.
Now, all studies are going to be abstract in some level, but it’s just insane to think you’re going to get real answers by just asking for the result. A proper study would ask a bunch of questions about situations designed to cause respondent to weight moral concerns against each other. ‘Would you encourage your brother to donate a kidney to an acquaintance of yours that he does not know?’, questions like that.
The study also would not pretend that anyone is actually concerned about non-Earth life, or bacterial life, which frankly is an idiotic absurdity that makes this entire thing even dumber.Report
What they have measured is _what level of the abstract concept of empathy people think they should show_.
You know what? I agree with that!
But also: the study is still measuring something interesting.
If you put people with a particular worldview into a position where they have to make decisions at-no-personal-cost, I think that the communicated default states would probably be stuck to.Report
Why is it a heatmap instead of just a line graph? It’s a one-dimensional set of values of 16 linear points! Heatmaps are for two dimensions sets of values, not one!
You can read the paper here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12227-0
The heat map represents the density of clicks on a given point for the two groups. I think it does an OK job of representing their data.
Why is it surrounded in blue? What does that blue mean
The color range and associated values is presented under the maps.
On top of all that nonsense, why is the heatmap scaled differently for conservatives and liberals?
The scale is based on the max number of responses.
As you’ll see if you check out the paper, they have a lot of caveats for that study, but the paper itself includes 7 studies (3 variants of study 1, and two variants each of 2 and 3).Report
I read the paper, it gives absolutely no indication of why it’s using a heatmap or how the hell we’re supposed to understand the thing.
You claim to understand, tell, what does the blue mean that is _outside_ the all the circles mean? Hell, what does the blue that extents past the center _into the bottom left_ mean?
How are there questions ‘down there’? Why are all the questions on one line like that?
Why is there only one axis, which for some reason goes in all directions as a label (because it’s a circle), but all the data goes in one direction?
I downloaded the supposedly raw data, and it has absolutely no information at all on any of thisReport
Yep this definitely looks like a “heat maps look cool!” decision rather than a “this best presents the data” decision. And hey, maybe having it look cool better serves Nature’s interests.Report
@KenB
I don’t know if you were intentionally traying to crack a joke, or if it was a happy accident. But “This is a cool heat map (and that is better than a warm heat map, because Global Warming)” is a really funny thing
Or, I am a fan of dad’s jokesReport
Hah, I didn’t even notice that — but I’m happy to retroactively take the credit.Report
This is probably the truest thing you have ever written here.Report
Judges would also accept “REAL conservatism has never been tried”.Report
New avenues for bribery!
https://www.mediaite.com/politics/trump-sells-100k-gold-watches-on-same-day-melania-insists-people-cant-afford-basic-necessities/Report
Growing up in a Red state, now living in a Red state, and being a student of American politics for close to 40 years, I see nothing for conservatives to return to in the GOP, as that party has never been about limited government, nor constitutionalism, nor practicality. They have spent over 4 decades emphasizing greed, using government to interfere in personal freedom, and expanding government beyond Constitutional limits in service of their own power grab – since they know their policies are more and more unpopular.Report
Traditionally, Democrats have been the party of greed. Their whole shtick is that they’re going to tax the top 2-5% of earners and give freebies to everyone else. It was the heart of Biden’s platform, and it’s a big part of Harris’s. To characterize wanting to keep what you earn as greed, and wanting to take what others have earned as generosity is really rather perverse.
Using government to interfere in personal freedom has long been a bipartisan activity, and Democrats have definitely led the charge on expanding government beyond Constitutional limits, starting with the New Deal.
Republicans have been in a really bad place for the past decade or so, but you really have to have had your mind warped by partisanship not to realize that you’re describing your own party here.Report
Making sure our poorest brothers and sisters have enough to eat, solid housing, and a chance at a good education used to be called being a good Christian. That aside, hoarding money at the very top of the economic scale – as Republicans want to do and have wanted to do for 40+ years – has been an economic disaster. Nothing has trickled down. Most boats remain stuck in the mud as the tide rises. Choose your metaphor. There’s also the not inherently related problem that the big government conservatives want for the military industrial complex, to regulations of peoples fundamental bodily freedom and autonomy requires taxation.
As does all the socialism our red state fellow citizens are now and will be receiving for months to years to recover from Helene. But sure, letting the Elon Musk’s of the world hoard resources is totally a good thing.Report
The Only Patriotic Choice for President: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/30/opinion/editorials/kamala-harris-2024.html
That is pretty damn strong language.
Now if only the rest of their coverage would actually reflect the sentiment instead of sane-washing Trump and having their top political reporters meltdown during interviews about how dare the peons criticize themReport
(wrong thread)Report
These kids today!Report
Whoops, wrong thread.
I’ll put it in the right one.Report