Why a Trump Loss is Best for Conservatives

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

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183 Responses

  1. J_A
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    I asked you, David, once and I’ll ask again today, if you could explain to us what are the conservative policies that you would like implemented and how they are different from generic Democratic policies, and which of those Democratic policies you reject.

    Because if you take Trumpism and Culture War out of the GOP, I believe that’s where most Americans, including the vast majority of Democrats, are.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to J_A
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      I am not David but I would like to give a tiny answer:

      It has to do with the difference between “generic Democratic policies” and “whatever crap the kids in the quad are yelling about this week”.

      For example: Is picking Israel as ally over Palestine a culture war thing? Because there are a *LOT* of conservatives who pick Israel as an ally over Palestine.

      How about changing official documents that talk about “Pregnant Women” to “Pregnant Persons”? “THAT’S CULTURE WAR STUFF!”, you may be tempted to say. I’d say “The point that you’re changing official documents moves it out of the category of culture war stuff.”

      So all of the stuff that bleeds over from tumblr or the quad into official government policy is probably where the big differences are.

      “Don’t change that! Leave things the way they are!” versus “No, we have to change it, and if you don’t want to change it, you’re the one who is politicizing it. You’re the one who is engaging in culture war!”Report

      • Joe in reply to Jaybird
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        If one lives on X/Twitter or online in general, one might think the two examples you cite are A Thing. In the real world they are not.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Joe
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          brother, “Twitter isn’t real life” is increasingly a bitter-clinger attitude.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Joe
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          Israel vs. Palestine isn’t a thing in the real world?

          As for “Pregnant persons”, I assure you, there is all sorts of stuff happening at the legislative level where that new terminology is being introduced and there are a surprising amount of people who spend all of their time in the real world that are responding as if they spent all of their time in a bubble (rather than in the real world).Report

          • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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            So you oppose inclusive language because … reasons?Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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              “This is happening.”
              “Why are you opposed to this happening?”

              Sigh.

              Anyway, I recognize that the language change is a deliberate salvo in the culture war, even if you don’t.

              I also recognize that being opposed to a change can be spun to be “politicizing” even as those making the change pretend that they aren’t politicizing at all.

              And recognizing this probably is a bad move on the part of the people pushing changes… So they have to jump over the “this isn’t happening!” part of the argument to the “but it’s good that it’s happening” part.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                I don’t use a person’s preferred pronouns, or inclusive language to gig conservatives. That would be the culture war reason to do so. I do it because it speaks to the dignity of the humans being so discussed/described. If you as a conservative leaning libertarian want to call it a deliberate escalation of the culture wars I suppose I can’t stop you. It just comes off as incredibly closed minded and petty.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Philip H
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                It’s projection all the way down. They can’t imagine a non-culture-war reason for using a person’s preferred pronouns, which allows them to treat somebody’s using them and somebody else’s getting his panties into a twist over someone else’s using them as morally equivalent.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                “I don’t do X to gig conservatives.”

                I’m pretty sure that the complaint isn’t that you’re using X.

                But I imagine if that’s how you have it framed in your head, it’d sound pretty crazy. “Why do they care what I type on my phone in my basement while I ignore the latest show on Netflix?”Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                I’m pretty sure that the complaint isn’t that you’re using X.

                Really, because that’s exactly what you wrote the complaint to be. Care to rewrite it clearly?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Philip H
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                No, the complaint is, apparently, that English cops will get on a boat, cross the Atlantic, and bust people who don’t use someone’s preferred pronouns. Or at least that’s my best guess. But you never know.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to CJColucci
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                Especially ironic since there is a story right now in WaPo about a woman whose trans daughter made the high school volleyball team, and the POLICE came to their door.
                In Alabama, USA.

                This isn’t the “Kids in the quad” fringe stuff, bur is the official policy position of conservatives.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                Scroll up:

                How about changing official documents that talk about “Pregnant Women” to “Pregnant Persons”? “THAT’S CULTURE WAR STUFF!”, you may be tempted to say. I’d say “The point that you’re changing official documents moves it out of the category of culture war stuff.”

                Colorado, for example, has passed a law that discusses “Pregnant People” rather than “Pregnant Women”.

                “Why do you care?”
                “This isn’t about me caring. It’s about how we’re switching from ‘that’s not happening’ to ‘but that’s good’.”Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                Are we not supposed to notice that when you find yourself in an awkward position, you pivot to haggling over semantics and meta issues ?

                Like, you really, really don’t want to talk about the merits of pronouns or terms for pregnant people, so you jump to accusations of other people.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                Would you prefer to discuss syntax?

                If the argument that the Republican Party and the Democratic Party are cheek-to-cheek, the meta-issues describe where the differences are.

                I don’t want to talk about the merits of pronouns.

                But I do notice that the language has changed and anyone who objects to the change is the one who is “politicizing” rather than the people who made the change.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                I don’t recall anyone saying that what you illustrate is not happening . . . . and even if that was the complaint it’s really weak almost transparent tea . . . .Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                See? We’re in “that’s good though!” territory!

                “Why do you care?”

                To repeat myself: “Don’t change that! Leave things the way they are!” versus “No, we have to change it, and if you don’t want to change it, you’re the one who is politicizing it. You’re the one who is engaging in culture war!”Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                Were all just saying the same thing, that conservatives don’t want to use people’s preferred pronouns.

                Which would be one thing, but they also become apoplectic when government agencies do.Report

      • North in reply to Jaybird
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        In the open mic channel you linked to a very strongly pro-Israeli plank in the platform of the Democratic Party, one that is representative of all of the Israeli relevant planks in the actual Democratic party as opposed to the imaginary one that is represented on twitter. I responded asking you if that plank surprised you and you seemed to elide that your only surprise was that it was present at all.
        It seems, from this comment, that you were actually very surprised that the actual Democratic party is strongly pro-Israel, so surprised in fact that you somehow forgot that the Dems pick Israel as an ally over the Palestinians. Am I misreading you?Report

        • Jaybird in reply to North
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          And I would go on to say that the majority of Democrats are “Pregnant Women” kinda people and not “Pregnant People” kinda women.

          And the same for Israel vs. Lebanon or Israel vs. Gaza.

          But the stuff that bleeds in from the campus quad is where the problem is.

          “So all of the stuff that bleeds over from tumblr or the quad into official government policy is probably where the big differences are.”

          I said that.Report

          • North in reply to Jaybird
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            Uh huh and that is… *checks policy and dialogue from the actual Democratic party actors* … just about nil.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to North
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              The imaginary Democrats are always worse than the actual Republicans.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to North
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              Sure, but now we’re no longer talking about the question that J_A asked but explaining that most Democrats aren’t like that, aren’t we?Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                In your response to J_A you presented a choice suggesting that Dems pick Palestine over Israel. I pointed out that this is not, remotely, true in any material way. Observing that there exist a handful of Democratic party members who’re pro-Palestinian doesn’t disprove that. Especially not considering that the party you present as “Pro Israel” plays host to some rabid fringers who’re ludicrously anti-Israel in a manner that’d make their Democratic counterparts blush in inadequacy, Jewish space lasers for example.

                So is presenting something that’s nakedly inaccurate addressing J_A’s question? I submit that it is not.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                There is this weird thing where when we say “Democrats”, we haven’t hammered down whether we mean “Members of Congress/The President” or “the people who show up to vote in November” or “the people on Instagram who talk about how important it is to vote for Biden because Trump is worse than Hitler”.

                I mean Harris.

                And the same for “Republicans”. The MAGA folks are quite different from, say, Dick Cheney.

                And there are games that can be played when it comes to “the left” versus “the right”.

                What is the official Right-Wing position on Israel?

                Is it “Jewish Space Lasers” and MTG is representative of the *REAL* right wing?

                Is MTG representative of The Right? Is she representative of MAGA and, therefore, The Republican Party as it exists today (and Prescott III is some weird outlier now)?

                And I’ll go back and say that picking Israel over Palestine *IS* a culture war thing even as Biden’s White House sends more missiles over to Israel (even if there is a sternly-written card attached).

                It’s the stuff that bleeds over into Official Policy from the dumb stuff in the quad where the problems are.

                Even if there is no daylight between 90% of Republicans in congress and 90% of Democrats in congress.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                But that still just doesn’t work Jay. You can point to an occasional Dem politician who’s hostile to Israel and I can point to an occasional Republican politician who’s the same. You can point to an internet group of lefties who’re hostile to Israel and I can point out the same on the right. And, yes, so far Democratic executive officials have been substantively supportive of Israel as have Republican ones. The only real difference between them is the Dems go “Hey that west bank coke you’re snorting is going to kill you eventually, as your friend I advise you to lay off it and wean yourself off it.” while the GOP ones go “Enjoy that coke, friend, I have an old book that says Jesus is going to pop out of your chest like Aliens when you finally OD so breathe deep!”
                So, I still see no justification for you to characterize the Democratic Party as being somehow on the “hostile to Israel” side of the culture war divide. However you define it: Major Actors of the Formal Democratic Party; Minor Actors of the Formal Democratic Party or all the way down to folks who code kind of left on twittspace, it just isn’t accurate.Report

              • Philip H in reply to North
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                Democrats aren’t over the top performatively supporting anything. That’s the key.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                So, I still see no justification for you to characterize the Democratic Party as being somehow on the “hostile to Israel” side of the culture war divide.

                I didn’t.

                I did mention “whatever crap the kids in the quad are yelling about this week”.

                To the extent that the one bleeds over into the other is where the problem is.

                The democrats (temporarily defined here as “congresspeople”) had nothing to do with the occupation of the administration office last spring. Nothing.

                But Democrats (defined here temporarily as social media influencers) did.

                And it may be unfair to talk about Democrats as if they have anything to do with Democrats but, sadly, the Democrats didn’t do a good enough job gatekeeping during 2016 and now we’re in a weird place where Democrats and Democrats have less in common than they had a decade ago.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                OKay fine, point at the occupations on the quad. I will note two things: first that they were -opposed- to “Genocide Joe” the Democratic President. And then, secondly, I will ask if you recall the folks chanting “The Jews will not replace us” as they demonstrated in Charlottesville and I’ll remind you they were demonstrating in favor of the Republican President at the time.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                Sure! And the guys in Charlottesville are quite regularly given as reasons to oppose Trump! They’re a good reason to oppose Trump!

                “If you vote for Trump, you’ll get more of this!” is an argument that makes sense!Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                Which leaves us back with my original complaint- that characterizing the Dems, or even liberals generally as “Picking Palestine over Israel” in the culture war is unmoored from reality.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                It’s like if a poll says that 43% of Democrats prefer X and 35% of Democrats prefer Y that it’s unfair to say that Democrats prefer X.

                And if the Republicans prefer X at a rate of 7% and Y at a rate of 80%, it’s not fair to say that they’re supporters of Y. Look at that 7%!

                That said: There is a mooring.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                So, firstly, by pointing at this polling you’re saying “It doesn’t matter what actual liberals or Democratic Party members do or say under their own names- these anonymous poll respondents are more representative. That strikes me as ludicrous.

                But even if we stick to the fig leaf of this poll, you’re skipping past the polling question that directly checks attitudes towards the Israeli’s and Palestinians (Changes in Favorable Ratings of Israel and the Palestinian Authority, by Party ID) which shows the Dems overwhelmingly supporting Israel over the Palestinians (but having a reduced opinion of both vis a vis 2023) and, thus, contradicts your assertion. Instead, you’re skipping down to the poll question (Sympathies in the Middle East Situation by Party ID and Age) which is both far more ambiguously worded and also is specifically about present matters and basically acts as a question of whether Dems approve of Bibi fishin’ Netanyahu who, I would like to remind you, has been pissing on Dems and nakedly supporting Trump* for years now. That’s really weak tea.

                *Which, I’d also point out, is ludicrously and insanely against Israel’s own long term interests and beneficial only to one Bibi Netanyahu’s welfare.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                these anonymous poll respondents are more representative.

                “More” representative?

                I probably wouldn’t say “more” but I do see them as “representative enough to bring them up in a discussion of differences between the two “sides”.”

                There are areas where the two “sides” are not, in fact, cheek to cheek and given that they agree on so very much elsewhere, that makes the areas where they differ a little more stark.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                Well I will grant that the two sides have very different opinions on Netanyahu and if you’d worded it that way we wouldn’t have a problem. But you, instead, said Israel vs the Palestinians and, as I pointed out, your poll actually specifically asks about opinions on Israel vs Palestinians and those numbers don’t support what you’re saying. So even on your own poll terms the assertion is incorrect.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                So the question “In the Middle East situation, are your sympathies more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?” isn’t good enough?

                Fair enough.

                I guess the argument that there’s a difference between the two parties is unmoored.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                In answering the question of “Does a given party pick Israel or Palestine to favor” the poll question “Which side do you favor, Israel and Palestine?” strikes me as a LOT more germaine than “Who do you sympathize with more in the current situation?”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                Is it worth comparing the two parties answers’ to that question? Or are we just going to say that the numbers are obviously on Israel’s side and, therefore, there aren’t any moors worth mentioning?Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                To which Question? Certainly the GOP is slightly more totally and unconditionally supportive in this polling than the Dems are which brings us back to the question of what friend is the better friend- the intervening “dude you’re going to kill yourself” friend or the “go ahead and do all the coke you want” friend? The GOP, of course, sympathizes with Netanyahu more that the Dems do, of course, since Netanyahu has been trying to turn Israel into a partisan question in the US; an act of colossal political stupidity.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                “The GOP”

                This feels like a smooshing again.

                The polling wasn’t of the GOP but of hoi polloi out there. I would agree that there is more overlap between the Republicans and the Republicans on Israel than the Democrats have with the Democrats, I don’t think that the Republicans accurately reflect the Republicans.

                Though, I’ll grant, they do a better job than the Democrats do with the Democrats.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                Or… and consider this carefully.. that noisy visible left wing minority you keep saying is “the Democrats” aren’t actually the Democrats and might be… stay with me here… a small noisy visible left wing minority?
                Because the Democrats, as in the party, its politicians, etc… have been pro-Israel for quite some time and the Democrats, as in the actual voters who nominate and elect and fund the Democratic Party sure seem to be okay with that.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                I imagine that the noisy visible left wing minority, when polled, would call itself “independent” instead of a member of Democrats, right?

                I’m willing to run with how they self-identify in the poll.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
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                Or arguably Green or something else I suppose.Report

              • notimportant in reply to North
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                if people knew the full extent to which our politicians (on both sides) kowtow to israel they’d be bothered. no one voting is okay with that.Report

              • Joe in reply to Jaybird
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                Was there a campus occupation at CUCS? It’s much more representative than Columbia or UCLA.

                I’m guessing you LOVED debate team in high school and/or college. For the sake of your family and friends I hope you get all that shit out of your system on this site.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Joe
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                Nah. UCCS was dull. The administration has a rule about overnight encampments.

                Colorado College had one, though!Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to North
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                As far as I can tell, Team Blue (Biden’s administration) have been trying to pressure Israel to “not escalate” and trying to defuse the war.

                Neither Hamas nor Israel want to end the war, they both want to win it.

                The US’s “pressure” largely consists of words, not actions.

                I’m not sure what Team Red’s position is. More support for Israel I guess, but honestly there’s not a lot of room there other than not finger wagging.

                The only concern I have over Team Blue is they’ll paint themselves into a corner with all this “we’re going to pressure Israel to not ‘escalate'” stuff.

                Suggesting that they could withhold arms and then being ignored might force them to actually withhold arms.

                The over arching problems/issues are:
                1) Iran is trying (successfully) to disrupt the region. Russia is somewhat helping because it wants to distract the US from Europe.

                2) Israel is a lot more willing to see terrorists as existential threats and behave accordingly.Report

              • North in reply to Dark Matter
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                I don’t have any particular quibble with your analysis at all. I just object to Jays original assertion that put Dems and liberals in the “Picking Palestine as an ally in culture war matters” bucket which, I still insist, is nakedly and ludicrously inaccurate. IReport

            • DensityDuck in reply to North
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              “Uh huh and that is… *checks policy and dialogue from the actual Democratic party actors* … just about nil.”

              And the soda ban was only on some sizes of soda and it was rescinded right away so I don’t know why anyone thought there would even be a problem!Report

              • North in reply to DensityDuck
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                Sure, sure, DD except the Soda Ban you’re referring to is actually more substantive since it was actually, ya know, enacted by a politician into policy whereas this imaginary Democratic hostility to Israel is, of course, imaginary and has no accompanying policy plank that’s being campaigned on by the Dems, let alone any substantive law or regulation in any prospect of being enacted.

                Though, on the other hand, your Soda ban example was proposed by a Republican (Bloomberg) and only carried on by a Dem later until the courts (rightfully) knocked it down.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to North
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                Much overlooked is why it was struck down. It was struck down on the theory that NYC’s Department of Health couldn’t do it by regulation. If the City Council had legislated on the matter, that would have been very different, and might well have been upheld.Report

              • North in reply to CJColucci
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                That is an interesting point I hadn’t even considered. That’sReport

          • Chris in reply to Jaybird
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            If this blog had existed in 1967, or 1987, there’d have been a WWII generation or Boomer Jaybird saying the exact same things about anti-Vietnam War or anti-Apartheid protests.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Chris
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              People like to memory hole the fact that MLK was on the same side as the hippies who broke in and occupied the deans office.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chris
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              See? Stuff goes from “that’s only on the college campuses!” to “everybody knows this!” in a generation!

              People *AGREE* with this point I’m making! They just think “why are you describing reality?” instead of “you’re wrong!”Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird
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                And people push back so hard against them precisely because they don’t want these things to become accepted truths in a generation. See also that Coates article and the comparison to slavery and segregation.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris
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                See, I think the South African parallel is accurate in some ways but doesn’t really bode well for any ‘side.’ The book on SA is that the critics of the white apartheid government were right. And no matter how much they built, how much they tried to create something like a normal, 1st world, “democratic” country, they couldn’t do it. Apartheid made it inherently illegitimate, authoritarian, and abusive.

                But this is where it’s worth continuing the story. As best as I can tell, the critics of the ANC were also mostly right. Behind Mandela they turned out to be incompetent, corrupt, and enamored with all kinds of discredited Eastern Bloc and other group rights nonsense. The result is that they’ve been unable to pick up and run the civil infrastructure inherited from the old racist regime, and it’s all starting to collapse, just as the political system is itself regressing. So of course no one in the West talks about South Africa anymore, as if it just disappeared in the late 90s.

                Now I happen to think there is a decent chance something like that happens with Israel/Palestine too. But it would be very strange to me to call that outcome vindication for anyone, not in a positive way.Report

              • Chris in reply to InMD
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                There are two things here: getting rid of the Apartheid system was an unequivocal good, as would be ending the Occupation. The government that followed was not great, and has gotten worse, for a variety of reasons, and that is bad. It’s entirely possible that any post-Occupation government will be bad.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris
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                There’s the Deontological Good that is unequivocal and the Unitarian Good that is Complicated and, technically, not over yet so we can’t really measure it (maybe it’ll turn out okay and the critics will be proven wrong at the end of the day).Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to North
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          The Pro-Palestinian faction in American politics messed up big time by being unable to agree to a few simple rules to speak at the DNC. They explicit stated they want to spoil the good mood. Sympathy for the Palestinians in the Democratic Party has been highest now than ever but I don’t think the Democratic Party likes the Pro-Palestinian faction in American politics that much because they are annoying and refuse to play the game.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to J_A
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      We can sharpen this a bit by listing possible dividing lines between conservatives and MAGAs:

      Would a conservative be comfortable addressing a trans person by their preferred pronoun?

      Would a conservative support widespread and easily obtainable contraception?

      Would a conservative be willing to acknowledge that American history up to the present has been marked by deeply engrained racism?Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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        Would a conservative be comfortable with a law making it illegal to address a trans person by anything other than their preferred pronoun?

        Would a conservative support the “Allowing Greater Access to Safe and Effective Contraception Act,” introduced by Republicans in the U.S. Congress in 2015 and reintroduced in 2017?

        Would a conservative be willing to point at a country that has not been marked by deeply ingrained racism or would he chicken out?Report

    • J_A in reply to J_A
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      Somehow my question became an exchange between (mainly) Jaybird on one side and several others on the other side. Jaybird apparently defined conservatism as calling a trans person only by their (assigned at) birth pronouns, and supporting Israel over Palestinians.

      Since actual Democrats in a position of power support Israel over Palestinians, or at least support Palestinians less than they support the Israeli government, I have to conclude that, as per Jay it’d, if only trans people would go away, all conservatives would be Democrats, or at least indifferent between the two.

      Because that would be a caricature of conservatives, after 50 plus comments I still do not know what policies conservatives other than Jaybird would want to implement that are different from what President Mayor Pete will be pursuing after January 2033.

      Perhaps David has a take that’s different from Jaybird’s. Or perhaps I’ll see him in Mayor Pete’s campaign in 2032.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to J_A
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        Jaybird apparently defined conservatism as calling a trans person only by their (assigned at) birth pronouns, and supporting Israel over Palestinians.

        That is not how I defined Conservativism, but wanted to make a distinction between Republicans and Democrats and the stupid kids in the quad.

        Republicans and Democrats have a *LOT* of overlap when it comes to both of the examples I gave. (Some Democrats differ, of course.)

        If it was just about the Republicans vs. Official Democratic Policy, there wouldn’t be much daylight between the two positions, would there?

        But, sometimes, the stuff from tumblr bleeds into Official Democratic Policy. And that’s where the tension is.

        I’d guess that you think that the Democratic leadership needs to listen *MORE* to the kids on the quad. Fair enough. I imagine that there are a handful of Democrats (exceptions, to be sure) that agree with you.

        And I’d say that that is where the difference is.

        “I still do not know what policies conservatives other than Jaybird would want to implement that are different from what President Mayor Pete will be pursuing after January 2033.”

        I’m not particularly conservative.

        I just find different things offensive about them than you do.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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          If it was just about the Republicans vs. Official Democratic Policy, there wouldn’t be much daylight between the two positions, would there?

          What are you talking about? There is a large gulf between the stated positions of both parties.

          It’s just both those positions are pretty far to the right of where you are pretending them to be.

          I just find different things offensive about them than you do.

          It’s weird how you don’t say those things.Report

  2. Joe
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    Abortions in the US have increased by 8% since Dobbs. During the eight years of the Obama administration they declined by 30%.Report

  3. InMD
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    This is where I hate to yell you but… Trumpism is conservatism now. I understand there are a lot of people in the right of center camp that aren’t particularly enamored with it for whatever reason. But until someone else takes over the ship that is the Republican party, or gets something else instead as the animating force of movement conservatism, then the two will remain one and the same.Report

    • North in reply to InMD
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      I’m going to defend David a bit by pointing out that his point stands despite what you say being right. Trump may well be (and I say is) what conservativism is now; but the path to that changing starts with Trump losing.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to North
        Ignored
        says:

        I’d say that Trump constitutes a strong rejection of the whole Neoconservative/Neoliberal New Order thing that Buckley did his best to wrangle until the wrangling stopped working around… 2006?

        The Populists haven’t had a home for a long, long time.

        But they have one now. I think that the Republican party will remain the New-And-Improved “Stupid Party”.

        I don’t think that Prescott III will be able to wrangle it back.Report

        • North in reply to Jaybird
          Ignored
          says:

          On the one hand I think you may well be correct but on the other hand there are structural reasons why you (and I) could be proven wrong.
          Specifically… money. The money wing of the GOP is very real, very rich and very not changing. These are the people who have money, want more of it and care little for much else beyond that consideration which means they care deeply about taxes and very conditionally about regulation*. They don’t command votes directly but they carry a lot of intellectual heft- they virtually own libertarian discourse, for instance, which, until Trump, meant they also owned the entire right wing brain trust.

          Now Trump and the populists are bucking that trend but they’re also so nakedly corrupt or inept (or both!) that there isn’t, really, a very concrete ideology that stands in opposition to the republitarian default that the money wing of the GOP embodies. Neocon foreign policy, note, is a seperate and very feeble wing that is discredited and used as an opportunistic stick to hit Dems with but is, when the rubber hits the road, mostly defunct.

          So, with the alternative right wing ideologies incoherent and undermined the money wing still rules the roost whatever mouth noises the party otherwise makes. The money wing isn’t going to go Democratic (if they were they’d have joined the large corporate Dem** contingent long ago) and they have every reason to believe that when Trumpism burns out they’ll be left ruling the ashes.

          *Not like libertarians but as in “if this regulation makes me money I like it and if it impedes me from making money then I hate it and it’s the devils’ dandruff.”
          **Basically people who care about money most of all but take a longer view saying “we’ll have a lot less money if we provoke an uprising of the proles, an authoritarian takeover or a deficit crisis so we have to swallow a certain degree of taxation, regulation and redistribution.”Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to North
            Ignored
            says:

            The largest backers of.Trump/Vance are Elon.Musk and Peter Thiel.

            Can someone.describe.for.me how.these billionaires.are.bucking the money wing of the GOP?Report

            • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels
              Ignored
              says:

              Trump made some pretty speeches about protecting social security and Medicare in the 2016 Republican primaries. He has administrated as a very orthodox Republican though.Report

            • North in reply to Chip Daniels
              Ignored
              says:

              Musk doesn’t appear to be thinking mainly in money terms anymore. He’s crossed over into culture warring spurred, it seems, primarily by his conflict with his child. He’s Culture!Right rather than Money!Right now.

              Thiel seems to be a more complicated question. He might just be Money!Right making culture noises or he might be drinking his own kool-aid.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to North
            Ignored
            says:

            The money wing remains GOP but the Republicans have realized that they have a *LOT* of wiggle room when it comes to being better than the Dems on taxes.

            “How’s this? We’ll ignore the topic” is a better deal than AOC has on offer.Report

            • North in reply to Jaybird
              Ignored
              says:

              Sure, but unfortunately for the money wing AOC represents the left most fringe of the Democratic Party, not its actual operational or even ideological position.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                The mental difference between “that’s a strawman!” and “that only happened once!” is important to the handful of people out there who don’t believe that “slippery slope” is a fallacy.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I didn’t call it a strawman and would, rather, call it an exaggeration if it’s intentional or, if as I suspect you’re just getting a bit twitter brained, just misunderstanding that social media is not meatspace.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                I know you didn’t. You didn’t because you know that it isn’t one.

                But there are people who believe that pivoting from “nobody is saying that” to “only crazy people are saying that” to “only one or two congresspeople are saying that” should all have the same persuasive power.

                And maybe there is a subset of people to whom it is.

                How many Donors are in this subset?Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Some, but if it’s just a question of money then I’m entirely unconcerned. The Dems are doing fine for money because most donors, big and small, recognize their party for that it is.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                Then maybe the rest of the Republican donors will be able to wander over there too.

                Cheney did, after all.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                They won’t, of course, because they’re money republicans. They’d support anyone so long as said person was promising tax cuts.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                And I’m saying that they don’t have to promise tax cuts anymore.

                They merely can get away with “we’ll keep the status quo… what are you going to do, vote for the other guys?”

                And then laugh.

                (There are precedents.)Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                And, again, who cares? The Dems aren’t hard up for money and the donors who want tax cuts no matter what aren’t going to come over to them for any policy position any sane Dem would offer. And rest assured the GOP is still promising tax cuts and likely always will.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                says:

                I’M NOT THE ONE WHO BROUGHT UP THE MONEY WING, NORTH!Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Sure. But my point is that the money wing on the right can’t move to the Dems because the Dems could never offer enough to move them without becoming the right (and would/should never wish to do that).

                Since the money wing remains immutably on the right, internally ideologically coherent and powerful in money, if not in votes, there’ll always be a gravitational force pulling the right/GOP towards some bastardized libertarian plutocratic ideal that comports with the money wings goals. To resist that force would require an ideological consistency and voter popularity that I don’t think Trumpism currently offers.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                Authoritarian regimes don’t even need or want an ideology.
                They insist upon a bargain: You can do anything you want so long as you don’t anger The Boss.

                See Disney, Florida, for reference.Report

              • North in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Their ability to stay beyond the one authoritarian figure depends on ideology. The discussion in this subthread is whether Republitarian money men have a plausible hope of reclaiming control of the GOP/Right the way they had a grip on it from 08 through to around 2020.

                While I agree with Jay that the money men are not likely to easily gain total control again I was attempting to explore, as an intellectual exercise, why it remains a live if unlikely possibility.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m not disagreeing.

                In ideological terms, “Do what you want” translates into libertarians.

                But as with all repressive regimes, the ideology always takes a back seat to the desires of the regime.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                Looking at the fundraising for the last couple of months… I think that there are tradeoffs that the money is willing to make.

                Are the Dems? Like, could the dems do the thing where they say that they wanted to raise taxes, they really did, but the darn filibuster prevented the bill from going through?

                Because I could easily see donating money to a party that merely won’t raise taxes. Plus I get to brag that I donated to Harris the next time I show up at my alma mater.Report

              • North in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Ehhh… I’m not in the room with the rights Money wing but my understanding is that they view taxes remaining as is as an intolerable state of affairs. They want cuts and specifically they want cuts that affect them. The wealthy who can be bought off with promises of taxes being “reasonable” or not moving much are either swing voters or are already part of the Dems very influential and large corporate supporters block.Report

      • InMD in reply to North
        Ignored
        says:

        Certainly true. It just seems to me like we’ve been waiting for that big defection for a while now, and if it’s happening it isn’t showing up in the polls or other indicators.

        But hey maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised in November. Nothing would be sweeter (or better for the country, conservatism, everyone) than, I dunno, Harris getting North Carolina’s electoral votes because the combination of Trump and Robinson is just too nuts for the state’s Republican voters.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to North
        Ignored
        says:

        Fair point, North, but that’s taking Trump at his word that if he loses this election he’ll not run again in 2028. About 80% of me doesn’t believe that.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to InMD
      Ignored
      says:

      Trumpism is conservatism now but that needs to change. There will always be many people with “don’t rock the boat” political instincts. “Don’t rock the boat” can be channeled in a good way like “don’t mess things up” or “don’t make a bad situation worse” or it can be harnessed in a bad way like what the Radical Right does.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to InMD
      Ignored
      says:

      Conservatism isn’t defined by whatever the majority of Republican voters want, even insofar as the masses even have coherent policy preferences. It would be more accurate to say that the US no longer has a conservative party among the top two. For that matter, it doesn’t have a liberal party among the top two, either.Report

      • CJColucci in reply to Brandon Berg
        Ignored
        says:

        Then what is it defined by? Certainly not a coherent and historically consistent set of principles or policies. Perhaps it’s a collection of different psychological states: the Russian peasant who fears all change, even if it appears to be in their interest, because of the fear that things will get worse, the leather chair and port Burkean who is OK with things more or less as they are and not averse to a little change as long as everybody is quiet about it and they get to keep their leather chairs and port. Or is it, simply, defined by what the people who call themselves that are?Report

        • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
          Ignored
          says:

          I’d say that it’s defined by this chart:

          Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
            Ignored
            says:

            OK, so that’s you. Anyone else out there have anything?Report

          • Chris in reply to Jaybird
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            says:

            I’ve read this paper, part of a few decades of consistent findings in political psychology showing that “liberals” (in the American political sense) are universalists, more open to experience, have lower need for control, etc., while conservatives are more “parochial,” have lower tolerance for novel experiences, more need for control, etc. Conservatives have generally pushed back on this research, and Haidt in particular has argued that it reflects liberal biases in the social/behavioral sciences. I think this might be the first instance I’ve seen of someone on the right using it as an accurate description of the psychological differences between liberals and conservatives.

            It would be interesting to see an argument from the right on how this specific difference (or the broader differences identified in political psychological research) is causally related to differences in political values and policy preferences.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Chris
              Ignored
              says:

              Me too.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chris
              Ignored
              says:

              I think this might be the first instance I’ve seen of someone on the right using it as an accurate description of the psychological differences between liberals and conservatives.

              It’s not. But okay.

              It would be interesting to see an argument from the right on how this specific difference (or the broader differences identified in political psychological research) is causally related to differences in political values and policy preferences.

              In the short term, I’d be cool with whether it’s coherent and has predictive power.

              Like, if we took it and applied it to stuff, would it be better than a coinflip on predicting positions on this or that hot button issue?Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                It’s not. But okay.

                It’s the first instance I’ve seen. Every other time I’ve seen this research discussed on the right, it’s been critical. Doesn’t mean that no one else on the right agrees with it.

                And to the extent that we can trust the research, we know that the political psychology research on psychological differences between liberals and conservatives has predictive power, because that’s what they do in a bunch of those studies, so I’m less interested in talking about predictive power than causal relations between the psychology and the positions.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, the main mistake that I see conservatives make when they talk about this data is the same mistake that I see when I see liberals talk about it.

                Heck, it’s the same mistake that I see with the Big 5.

                Everybody keeps assigning some sort of moral value to it.

                Like low openness is immoral or high agreeableness is moral.

                I mean, I imagine that high openness would see low openness as immoral (or vice-versa) and the same for all the way around the chart.

                But it’s not. It’s a matter of taste.

                But, anyway, if we agree that the research is a good starting point (assuming that it’s pretty good) and that it does, in fact, explain the difference between liberals and conservatives…

                Well, I’d say that we’ve got an answer to CJ’s original question: “Then what is it defined by?”Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m glad you’re satisfied, but the question was addressed to Brandon, and those like him who identify as conservative and find themselves uncomfortable or embarrassed by actual, existing self-identified conservatives whose votes they need to get whatever it is they want. Presumably, there is some set of principles or policies they think they adhere to that separates them from their vulgar fellow travelers. and I’d like to know what they say they are.
                When all is said and done, it may be that there’s no there there, and it’s just a matter of people having certain psychological traits naturally leaning toward whatever codes as “conservative” in the current year. I had a similar thought when I was in high school, but connecting that to whatever conservatism “really” is, if anything, is tricky and I’d like to hear what the conservatives who want to separate themselves from the great unwashed have to say.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                To be clear, I don’t know that it explains the differences between liberals and conservatives. For one, I don’t think liberalism and conservatism lie on a single line, but are multi-dimensional. For another, I’m generally skeptical of social psychological research, because, well, social psychology has given us a lot of reasons to be skeptical. But I’m definitely willing to entertain them as possible explanations; I’m just not clear on the causal relationships between personality and policy, particularly in an age of mass media and propaganda.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris
                Ignored
                says:

                Fair enough.

                I’m willing to wait with you and CJ for another, better, explanation to come along.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Chris
                Ignored
                says:

                This is a good point, that our political orientations aren’t on a straight line, and further, most of this sort of essentialism misses that the traits that Haidt talks about can express themselves in different ways leading to almost any political ideology.

                For example, I am dispositionally conservative; Preferring stability and the preservation of order.

                But…which order?
                The order of the New Deal era, or the order of the Gilded Age?

                By preferring the preservation of Social Security and Medicare, does that make me conservative or liberal?

                The old stereotype of conservatives as wanting to resist change doesn’t apply any more and hasn’t really applied in our lifetimes.

                The policy preferences of the Trumpists and SCOTUS is not the preservation of the status quo, but the breakup of the status quo in favor of something different, something very few have ever experienced.Report

              • Chris in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                I generally prefer to talk about conservatism and liberalism entirely in the context of specific political systems. For example, in the American system, Republicans vs Democrats, a dyad that looks different in many ways from the Tory-Labor system in the UK, and very different from the political systems in many other countries where you might have a far left labor party, a far left green party, a center left party, a center right party, a basically fascist far right party, and maybe other far right or center right/left parties.

                In the American context, the binary division between “conservatives” and “liberals” isn’t that old: within living memory (within most of our lifetimes, I suspect), conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans weren’t that uncommon, and the splits and realignments of the 40s, 50s, and 60s were still taking shape into the 90s. Only in the last 40 or so years has the increasingly firm political division become an increasingly clear cultural division. I would not be surprised to learn that these fairly new divisions were highly correlated with the personality and political psych findings. It would be interesting to see how the studies they’re doing in political psych labs today would have come out in, say, 1950, or even 1995.

                On top of this, of course, you have political outsiders: the libertarians who used to frequent this place, e.g., or anti-capitalist leftists, both groups with a pretty wide variety of political ideas and personality types.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Chris
                Ignored
                says:

                You might find this article interesting, documenting the increasing disconnection between income and education as determinants of voting:

                Brahmin Left Versus Merchant Right: Changing Political Cleavages in 21 Western Democracies, 1948-2020

                https://academic.oup.com/qje/article/137/1/1/6383014Report

              • Chris in reply to CJColucci
                Ignored
                says:

                Ah yes, I know that one. Didn’t expect to see Piketty cited here, though. It’s a good paper. Have you read any of his books? Capital in the 21st Century will probably be one of the most influential books of the first decades of the 21st century, but if you haven’t read Capital and Ideology or A Brief History of Inequality, which are both much easier than Capital, I recommend them.Report

              • Chris in reply to Chris
                Ignored
                says:

                It would be interesting to see how the studies they’re doing in political psych labs today would have come out in, say, 1950, or even 1995.

                Anecdotally, a bunch of the hard rock, drug-using, sexually… flexible adults I knew in the 90s were politically conservative, and often extremely so. It seemed incongruent to me even then, because they were so rebellious in their personal lives, but thought of liberals as commies.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Chris
                Ignored
                says:

                When you write “politically conservative”, what do you mean by that? Do you mean they thought there should be laws banning the hard rock, drugs, and sexual flexibility they were indulging in, or do you mean something else?

                Because I’ll point to the Hell’s Angels when Hunter Thompson was writing about them and how they too favored hard rock, drugs, and sexual flexibility, and how they too proved to be conservative sorts when it came to government policies regarding fiscal matters, immigration, and national defense.Report

              • Chris in reply to DensityDuck
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                says:

                I mean they probably voted for Reagan twice, thought Democrats were pinko commies, were anti-“welfare” and pro-fiscal conservatism, and hated PC culture, so politically very similar to non-Trumpy conservatives today, mutatis mutandis.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Chris
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                says:

                (“hating PC culture” was liberal-coded in the 1990s)Report

          • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
            Ignored
            says:

            That is almost an unfathomably bad chart.

            Why is it a heatmap instead of just a line graph? It’s a one-dimensional set of values of 16 linear points! Heatmaps are for two dimensions sets of values, not one!

            Why does the ‘heatmap’ go to the top right? Does that mean something? Is it just to make it less obvious that this should been a linear graph, which we could have noticed if it went straight left or right?

            Why is it surrounded in blue? What does that blue mean…for example, what does the blue _outside all the circles_ at the top right mean? That both liberals and conservatives care some somewhat about a hypothetical multiverse?

            Also, if I’m looking at circle four, what point in that circle should I look at? The highest one? But if it’s a heatmap, it’s averaging things, right, it could be getting heat from the point next to it, that’s why the points fade to nothing on the sides.

            What the hell is even going on here? Is this even a proper heatmap? I don’t actually think it is!

            On top of all that nonsense, why is the heatmap scaled differently for conservatives and liberals? That seems a little sneaky, mostly because if it wasn’t like that, conservatives and liberals would appear to care the same amount about the center stuff, and liberals would just care _more_ about the outside stuff.

            And last of all: There is no way this heatmap is correct. It argues that liberals care more about aliens trees than all humans. Which, and I know a lot of people have different political views and some people don’t think higher of liberals, but I think I can pretty solidly claim that absolutely _no one_ here believes liberals think that. Not just that no liberals do think that, but no one here even thinks they possibly could.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
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              says:

              If you’d like to read the original Nature paper, you can do so here.

              From the paper:

              Finally, we assessed the heatmaps generated by participants’ clicks on the rung they felt best represented the extent of their moral circle. These qualitative results also demonstrated that liberals (individuals who selected 1, 2, or 3 on the ideology measure) selected more outer rungs, whereas conservatives (individuals who selected 5, 6, or 7 on the ideology measure) selected more inner rungs (see Fig. 5). Overall, these results suggest conservatives’ moral circles are more likely to encompass human beings, but not other animals or lifeforms whereas liberals’ moral circles are more likely to include nonhumans (even aliens and rocks) as well. Study 3a revealed these patterns also when asking about participants’ ideal moral circles. This suggests that both liberals and conservatives, although differing in their moral allocations, feel that their pattern of allocation is the ideal way to adjudicate moral concern in the world.

              Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                So reading that, it’s pretty clear just how bad that heatmap is at conveying the meaning of anything.

                Moreover, it demonstrates exactly how bad just asking people to just _define_ their moral concern works…or, at least, with liberals.

                You can’t just _ask_ people to assign moral weight tokens to things. People will answer exactly how they think they are supposed to answer. (And it get really horrible when you realize conservatives thinks they are supposed to do the sociopathic answer of ‘My entire moral concern is my close friends, everyone else can FOAD’.)

                You have to ask them _hypothetical questions_.

                The almost definitive example of this is animal testing. A huge chunk of people disapprove of it in the abstract, but if you ask them ‘Would you be okay with a thousand monkeys getting sick and dying if it cures a human disease that kills thousands a year?’, almost everyone will say yes. Liberals and conservatives.

                Of course liberals are going to pick the correct answer of ‘all life in the entire universe is of moral concern’ if you just vaguely ask them to assign moral weight. Try asking them about smallpox, a living thing that literally no human being on the face of the planet has an opposition to wiping out. Turn out that that the wellbeing of smallpox is absolutely no moral concern to them at all!

                This is utter nonsense as any sort of serious study…except showing, very clearly, what the various political ideologies think they _should_ be answering.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                People will answer exactly how they think they are supposed to answer.

                So maybe both conservatives and liberals are lying and just answering the way their peer groups probably would want them to?

                While that may be true, we’re measuring what their peer groups would probably indicate which is measuring something less interesting, but still interesting.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                So maybe both conservatives and liberals are lying and just answering the way their peer groups probably would want them to?

                I feel ‘lying’ is a strong word there.

                As we are well aware here, people often answer vague political questions differently then they do when faced with actual questions about policy.

                The same is true of any philosophy. In fact, those often overlap…it’s pretty much the standard gotcha to point out that pro-life people, when actually asked ‘Would you save two IVF embryos that are going to be implanted tomorrow, or a single adult human’, will pause and usually admit ‘the single adult human’.

                People have all sorts of broad ideas that they _think_ they believe, and will assert they believe, and then will fall apart completely in hypotheticals. (You don’t even have to go all the way to real life! Just directed hypotheticals.)

                Which is why it is nearly utterly useless to just vaguely ask people ‘What do you value?’. It’s why you have to ask comparison questions.

                Hell, it’s why we invented the trolley problem, which technically about a different moral question (Is it ethical to purposefully do something that kills someone if it save more other people), but that one people _also_ tend to answer one way in the abstract and one way when at the hypothetical. (Specifically, they say it’s morally okay to sacrifice one person in the abstract if it saves multiple others, but become _incredibly_ reluctant to say they will would pull the switch and directly kill someone.)

                You can’t just say ‘Hey, answer this abstract moral question’ and expect any answers.

                …although it really is interesting how readily conservatives will just say they will throw people they know, but are not good friends with, under the bus, a thing which is probably not actually true (1), but their constructed moral outlooks says it should be.

                1) As evidenced by the trolley problem, empathy makes it pretty hard for people to directly allow people they are interacting with to suffer unless they can come up with some justification that the person should suffer, _even if_ their moral code says it is best. It’s why the trolley problem exists, it’s why the absolute best way of getting through to people about LGBTQ issues is for them to know an LGBTQ person, etc, etc.Report

              • Chris in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                Ah wait, I see you’ve read it down here, sorry.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC
              Ignored
              says:

              Incidentally, if I was just looking at the conservative one, I would suspect the reason they did it as a nearly-unreadable heatmap is to disguise the fact that conservatives appear to stop caring about people as soon as they hit ‘distant friends’, which actually makes them sound a little sociopathic and self-centered.

              However, considering how completely bugnuts the _liberal_ side is, with liberal moral thought supposedly mostly focused on _aliens_ (A thing that literally no actual humans include in their moral calculus, for obvious reasons.) I suspect this entire thing is nonsense.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                The paper talks about how that shows the results of an artificial constraint. It goes on to explain:

                Study 3b is a conceptual replication of Study 3a, allowing participants unlimited moral units to distribute to various circles. Conservatism was positively correlated with the human allocation proportion score only, r (261) = 0.14, p = 0.025, and hence negatively with the nonhuman allocation proportion score (for means, see Fig. 6). A multiple regression using the human allocation proportion score as an outcome variable with political ideology, age, gender, and education as predictor variables revealed the same significant effect for political ideology (see Table 1). Thus, even when participants’ allocations were not constrained, the same pattern replicated such that liberals distribute empathy toward broader circles and conservatives distribute empathy toward smaller circles.

                Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                See, I have to flatly disagree with this:

                the same pattern replicated such that liberals distribute empathy toward broader circles and conservatives distribute empathy toward smaller circles.

                I don’t disagree with what is stated as the results, but the study does not show this, because what they have measured is not empathy. What they have measured is _what level of the abstract concept of empathy people think they should show_.

                Now, all studies are going to be abstract in some level, but it’s just insane to think you’re going to get real answers by just asking for the result. A proper study would ask a bunch of questions about situations designed to cause respondent to weight moral concerns against each other. ‘Would you encourage your brother to donate a kidney to an acquaintance of yours that he does not know?’, questions like that.

                The study also would not pretend that anyone is actually concerned about non-Earth life, or bacterial life, which frankly is an idiotic absurdity that makes this entire thing even dumber.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                What they have measured is _what level of the abstract concept of empathy people think they should show_.

                You know what? I agree with that!

                But also: the study is still measuring something interesting.

                If you put people with a particular worldview into a position where they have to make decisions at-no-personal-cost, I think that the communicated default states would probably be stuck to.Report

            • Chris in reply to DavidTC
              Ignored
              says:

              Why is it a heatmap instead of just a line graph? It’s a one-dimensional set of values of 16 linear points! Heatmaps are for two dimensions sets of values, not one!

              You can read the paper here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12227-0

              The heat map represents the density of clicks on a given point for the two groups. I think it does an OK job of representing their data.

              Why is it surrounded in blue? What does that blue mean

              The color range and associated values is presented under the maps.

              On top of all that nonsense, why is the heatmap scaled differently for conservatives and liberals?

              The scale is based on the max number of responses.

              As you’ll see if you check out the paper, they have a lot of caveats for that study, but the paper itself includes 7 studies (3 variants of study 1, and two variants each of 2 and 3).Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Chris
                Ignored
                says:

                I read the paper, it gives absolutely no indication of why it’s using a heatmap or how the hell we’re supposed to understand the thing.

                You claim to understand, tell, what does the blue mean that is _outside_ the all the circles mean? Hell, what does the blue that extents past the center _into the bottom left_ mean?

                How are there questions ‘down there’? Why are all the questions on one line like that?

                Why is there only one axis, which for some reason goes in all directions as a label (because it’s a circle), but all the data goes in one direction?

                I downloaded the supposedly raw data, and it has absolutely no information at all on any of thisReport

              • KenB in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                Yep this definitely looks like a “heat maps look cool!” decision rather than a “this best presents the data” decision. And hey, maybe having it look cool better serves Nature’s interests.Report

              • J_A in reply to KenB
                Ignored
                says:

                @KenB

                I don’t know if you were intentionally traying to crack a joke, or if it was a happy accident. But “This is a cool heat map (and that is better than a warm heat map, because Global Warming)” is a really funny thing

                Or, I am a fan of dad’s jokesReport

              • KenB in reply to J_A
                Ignored
                says:

                Hah, I didn’t even notice that — but I’m happy to retroactively take the credit.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Brandon Berg
        Ignored
        says:

        It would be more accurate to say that the US no longer has a conservative party among the top two. For that matter, it doesn’t have a liberal party among the top two, either.

        This is probably the truest thing you have ever written here.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Brandon Berg
        Ignored
        says:

        Judges would also accept “REAL conservatism has never been tried”.Report

  4. Philip H
    Ignored
    says:

    If Harris is as ineffective as Republicans say, she not only can’t do much damage, but she should be easy to beat with a traditional Republican candidate in 2028. That would put the Republican Party back on the right track with tried-and-true conservative principles of limited government, constitutionalism, and practicality over personality. Hopefully, such a traditional Republican can be found when the time comes.

    Growing up in a Red state, now living in a Red state, and being a student of American politics for close to 40 years, I see nothing for conservatives to return to in the GOP, as that party has never been about limited government, nor constitutionalism, nor practicality. They have spent over 4 decades emphasizing greed, using government to interfere in personal freedom, and expanding government beyond Constitutional limits in service of their own power grab – since they know their policies are more and more unpopular.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Philip H
      Ignored
      says:

      Traditionally, Democrats have been the party of greed. Their whole shtick is that they’re going to tax the top 2-5% of earners and give freebies to everyone else. It was the heart of Biden’s platform, and it’s a big part of Harris’s. To characterize wanting to keep what you earn as greed, and wanting to take what others have earned as generosity is really rather perverse.

      Using government to interfere in personal freedom has long been a bipartisan activity, and Democrats have definitely led the charge on expanding government beyond Constitutional limits, starting with the New Deal.

      Republicans have been in a really bad place for the past decade or so, but you really have to have had your mind warped by partisanship not to realize that you’re describing your own party here.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Brandon Berg
        Ignored
        says:

        Making sure our poorest brothers and sisters have enough to eat, solid housing, and a chance at a good education used to be called being a good Christian. That aside, hoarding money at the very top of the economic scale – as Republicans want to do and have wanted to do for 40+ years – has been an economic disaster. Nothing has trickled down. Most boats remain stuck in the mud as the tide rises. Choose your metaphor. There’s also the not inherently related problem that the big government conservatives want for the military industrial complex, to regulations of peoples fundamental bodily freedom and autonomy requires taxation.

        As does all the socialism our red state fellow citizens are now and will be receiving for months to years to recover from Helene. But sure, letting the Elon Musk’s of the world hoard resources is totally a good thing.Report

  5. Saul Degraw
    Ignored
    says:

    The Only Patriotic Choice for President: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/30/opinion/editorials/kamala-harris-2024.html

    That is pretty damn strong language.

    Now if only the rest of their coverage would actually reflect the sentiment instead of sane-washing Trump and having their top political reporters meltdown during interviews about how dare the peons criticize themReport

  6. Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    (wrong thread)Report

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