None Dare Call It A Conspiracy, Because It Wasn’t

Michael Siegel

Michael Siegel is an astronomer living in Pennsylvania. He blogs at his own site, and has written a novel.

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  1. Jaybird
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    There was also just a stark refusal to admit that the Republicans might have a point. The politics of our age is defined by Oppositional Defiance Disorder.

    Yeah. Well put.

    My issue isn’t some variant of “My Party, Right or Wrong!” on the part of the partisans. It’s the whole “Criticism sub 1 is unfounded! It’s a conspiracy theory! Only bad people believe it and even worse people spread it!”

    Criticism sub 1 turns out to have been true. True to the point where Biden stepped down, kinda.

    Republicans, naturally, turn to Criticism sub 2. “Criticism sub 2 is unfounded! It’s a conspiracy theory! Only bad people believe it and even worse people spread it!”

    Jane Coaston had a banger of a line the other day where she compared politicians to Offensive Coordinators. Yell at them until they do what you want and nitpick every single mistake.

    I laughed and then realized that that’s an even better point than I thought it was in the first few seconds I spent admiring it. People keep thinking that politicians are the team. They’re not the team. They’re just the offensive coordinator.

    Responding to “Joe Lombardi is screwing up” with “YOU’RE JUST A SECRET RAIDERS FAN!” is nuts. It’s nuts! But people do it!Report

    • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      A refusal evidenced by Dems breathlessly freaking out about Biden’s age, debate performance, etc.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Jaybird
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      “Republicans, naturally, turn to Criticism sub 2. “Criticism sub 2 is unfounded! It’s a conspiracy theory! Only bad people believe it and even worse people spread it!”

      Ok so because Biden really was too old to campaign effectively, we should be more receptive to the claim that Harris is a crazy cat lady who has no investment in the future because she has no biological children?

      Makes sense to me.

      Also lest I be accused of nutpicking, I hasten to point out that I didn’t select that particular nut. Trump did, when he chose him as a running mate.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to pillsy
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        The problem with the debate was *NOT* that it led people to suspect that Biden might not be a good campaigner.

        But you misapprehend exactly what the criticism is.

        The complaint isn’t about people ought to listen to the Republicans and their criticisms more, now that at least one of their criticisms has proven to be somewhat accurate (“Biden is too old to campaign effectively!”, some say their criticism was).

        The complaint is about the people whose job it is to tell you how you don’t need to listen to criticisms.

        The “Seriously, the Emperor’s Outfit is Amazeballs and Don’t Let Them Gaslight You into Thinking Otherwise!” people.

        The “Oh, so you’re saying that I have to take everything that Republicans say seriously now?” people.Report

        • pillsy in reply to Jaybird
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          The “Oh, so you’re saying that I have to take everything that Republicans say seriously now?” people

          It’s extremely unclear how else you think we could address your complaint.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to pillsy
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            Well, for one thing, my complaint was not about what the Republicans were saying.

            It was about the Wardrobe Defenders. I’ll point to this again because it makes my point much more eloquently than I can.

            After the debate, the New York Times asked its opinion peeps who they thought won the debate.

            Which of these guys do you think would be the most worth listening to if they told you “Kamala has nothing to worry about”?

            Which of these guys do you think would be the most worth listening to if they said that they have a handful of concerns?

            I’m not saying that you have to believe *ANYTHING* that *ANY* Republican says ever again. Hell, ignore all of them.

            But look at the wardrobe defenders… and make an assessment over which you can treat like Republicans if a criticism of Harris happens to surface.

            You never know. A reasonable criticism of Harris might show up in an essay somewhere. You shouldn’t immediately jump to “a Republican might say that therefore a Republican did and since Republicans lie, I don’t have to take that statement seriously.”

            You don’t want to get blindsided. Again.Report

            • pillsy in reply to Jaybird
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              You shouldn’t immediately jump to “a Republican might say that therefore a Republican did and since Republicans lie, I don’t have to take that statement seriously.”

              Ok. I don’t disagree with this argument.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird
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              Who in that chart was a “wardrobe defender”?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
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                At the very least, the two people who argued that the debate was a tie.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                So… from your vantage point… there was an objectively correct answer to the question of “Who won the debate?”, that answer was “Trump”, and anyone who felt otherwise was denying reality?

                Interesting.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
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                Not that interesting, really. Have you seen Jon Stewart’s breakdown of the debate?

                It’s linked below.

                To be honest, I think that the fact that Biden did so very poorly at the debate that they worked behind the scenes to get him to not run for a second term is a *HUGE* indicator that the answer was “Trump”.

                Any other answer requires stuff like emphasis on the importance of skepticism in the absence of 100% certainty to the point where you are forced to argue against such things as polling theory.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                Or it requires not declaring an overt liar the winner of anything. Ya know as a matter of integrity.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                With that definition, Biden could not have lost the debate before the debate ever took place.

                Without seeing the debate, you could say that Trump could *NOT* have won it.

                The only two possible outcomes were:

                1. Biden
                2. A Tie

                Does that sum it up without making a strawman of your position?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                Trump told multiple lie through the debate. On purpose. I am not in the habit of awarding trophies to serial liars. You really shouldn’t be either.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                That’s something that we knew he’d do *BEFORE* the debate, though.

                The only two possible outcomes were:

                1. Biden
                2. A Tie

                Does that sum it up without making a strawman of your position?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                Well since we knew BEFORE the debate that Trump lies chronically, I guess we KNEW BEFORE the debate who the winner was.

                Which makes all the assertions AFTER the debate by a good many folks somewhat comical don’t ya think?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Philip H
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                The soft bigotry of low expectations.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                Well, to be frank, I kinda see the position as absurd.

                Like, you went into the debate knowing that Trump could not, in any way, win.

                This strikes me as a reductio against the argument.

                Assuming I didn’t strawman it, that is.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird
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                Methinks you need to revisit the story of “The Emperor’s New Clothes.”Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy
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                “Methinks you need to revisit the story of “The Emperor’s New Clothes.””

                (the moral of the story is that the kid was wrong)Report

              • Kazzy in reply to DensityDuck
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                Which version…?

                Both of you fundamentally misunderstand and/or misapply the message.

                The Emperor was objectively observed to be naked, but everyone pretended they could see the glamorous clothes because they didn’t want to be a lone dissenter.

                Applying it to a situation where subjective analysis is being applied is just not getting it.

                Biden was not objectively and provably the loser of the debate. Full stop.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
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                Would being forced out of the re-election campaign qualify as a “losing” indicator?

                If not, why not?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird
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                I’m sorry you misunderstood and/or misapplied the moral of that story.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
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                Has anybody *EVER* won a debate?

                I mean, I’ve always heard that Biden beat Paul Ryan back in 2012.

                Is that just so much hogwash because it’s impossible to say whether someone beat someone else in a debate?

                Never? Even once?Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird
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                Interestingly I think what happened to Biden may have reinforced the importance of debates. It doesn’t matter that they can’t be objectively scored like a sporting event or board game. America needed to see exactly what went down. As unfortunate as the outcome was for Biden (and as less than perfectly ideal as the move to Harris may be) it was a very valuable exercise.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD
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                I would agree.

                I submit: If we hadn’t had a debate, we’d still be debating Biden.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy
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                Obviously, indisputably Biden lost the debate. But I think most people have been using the analogy for the bigger issue, that Biden has been obviously and indisputably impaired for a while now.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                You can’t “loose” anything to a serial liar.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                I didn’t say “loose”, I said “lose”, and Biden is also a serial liar, and who says you can’t lose to one?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                Biden is not a serial liar, not even close. Sure, he promotes policies you don’t like, but that doesn’t mean he’s lying.

                Serial liars like TFG are, inherently, losers. They are fragile snowflakes who can’t handle truth. They can not in any ethical sense of the word, “win.” In any circumstance. Never mind all the big, actual, documented court losses he and his entities have racked up which he continues to lie about. He was a loser before he set foot on that stage. He remains a loser.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                Do you think Biden believes that he inherited 9% inflation? That Trump refused to denounce fringe groups? That no soldiers died on his watch? That there are fewer border crossings under him than under Trump? That the Border Patrol endorsed him? That Trump told people to inject bleach?

                Oh, oh, also the whole plagiarism thing.

                And let me know if you want more, because other than the plagiarism, I think most of these were just in the past several weeks. I could dig if you want.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                How about you do the same thing for TFG, add it all up, and then tell me who “wins” numerically.

                TFG is still a loser. Was so before the debate. remains so today.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                BOTHSIDESDOIT

                I get it. That doesn’t mean Biden’s not a serial liar. He’s famous for it. Even the mainstream press covers his “embellishments”. Also, I raised six specific lies and the plagiarism.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                I see four stages in our recent history in terms of presidential liars. Nixon was the shamed liar, Clinton was the unashamed liar, Obama realized that no one cared if he lied, and Trump based his campaign on lying. I don’t think that Biden’s cleared a new threshold when it comes to presidential lying; he’s more of a call-back to the pre-internet days when a local politician wouldn’t get caught lying.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                TFG is a liar. He and his organizations stand adjudicated of lying and fraud in civil court. His felony conviction rests on him being a liar who decided to lie about where he was paying Stormy Daniels hush money from.

                That report isn’t from Congress – it’s from the House Oversight Committee who managed to gather so much evidence that Biden had committed crimes it could … do nothing. No impeachment. No criminal referrals. Nothing. It, in and of itself, is a lie.

                TFG is a liar and therefore a loser. Was before the debate. Remains so now.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                He wasn’t impeached, therefore it wasn’t a lie?

                Phil, you might be under the influence of some motivated reasoning here.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird
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                Jaybird, keep in mind that over the past few years a surprising number of people took the attitude that innocent people don’t get accused of crimes. And it’s at least consistent for them to say also that anyone not accused of a crime is innocent.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                We mentioned the term once, “Praising by faint damns.”

                This is a good example.

                If this is your “A” game, your fastball pitch against Biden I think it just proves beyond a shadow of a doubt he is perhaps the most honest and truthful president’s on American history.

                Well done.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                Append it with something like “in our lifetimes” and you might be able to drop the “perhaps”.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy
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                says:

                “The Emperor was objectively observed to be naked, but everyone pretended they could see the glamorous clothes because they didn’t want to be a lone dissenter.”

                Or maybe everyone recognized the need for institutional continuity and was aware that normalizing critique of minor missteps would lead to a loss of confidence in the administration and an inability to achieve policy goals. On the other hand, this kid thinks that The Truth (as he sees it) is more important than having an actual functional society. So yeah, maybe the Emperor was standing there naked, but if we don’t stand behind him then what comes next will be worseReport

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy
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                The courtiers who argued “We don’t know whether the Emperor was naked” had a point? The courtiers who wanted to discuss nudity theory?Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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          I’d like some evidence that ‘Biden is too old to campaign effectively!’ was the Republican’s criticism. Because that’s not actually what I was hearing.

          In fact, I remember a lot of discussion about problems that Biden doesn’t actually have, or at least were not symptoms of things. Like the claim he was hiding Parkinson, a disease he does not have. Or that he had dementia, a thing that, as far as we know, he is not showing signs of.

          He is old, and he has slowed more than people thought until the debate.

          But Republicans have spent years making up health problems for basically every candidate, and they don’t get any credit for ‘Looks like the really old guy is feeling his age a bit more than he was letting on’ when it’s interwoven with conspiracy theories.

          Now, there _were_ people who pointed out that running for president while being president is incredibly grueling, and it was unclear if Biden could handle it due to age and he probably shouldn’t try. And, sure, if that’s what they limited themselves to saying, they had a point. But that’s not ‘Republicans’, or at least not their media machine which spent a hell of a lot of time inventing medical conditions for Biden. (And Hillary, least people forget.)Report

          • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
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            says:

            I’d like some evidence that ‘Biden is too old to campaign effectively!’ was the Republican’s criticism. Because that’s not actually what I was hearing.

            Oh, it wasn’t. The Republican criticism was much closer to Jon Stewart’s. Have you seen the video that he made literally minutes after the debate?

            As for Hillary collapsing at the 9/11 event, we covered that in real time!

            Opinions differed on the event from “holy cow, that was *BAD*!” to “it’s inconsequential”.

            Same here. Opinions on how Biden did at the debate differed. Opinions ranged from “holy cow, that was *BAD*!” to “it’s inconsequential”.Report

            • North in reply to Jaybird
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              Regarding Hillary collapsing at the 9/11 event would you concede, now 8 years roughly on from that event with Hillary alive and well, that your various alluded criticisms of people saying her collapsing was not indicative of any serious health problem, were wrong?Report

              • InMD in reply to North
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                This is a really good point. I was much more on social media for 2016 and remember seeing a lot of Hilary videos suggesting something really serious was up with her health that turned out to have no merit to them. I know memories are worse than that of a gnat these days but that’s some pretty important context.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to North
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                It’s obvious now that she had no problems that couldn’t have been fixed by a quiet retiree’s schedule.

                See also: Trump in 2024.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                So, No.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Oh, yeah. The people who said that Clinton would be dead within a couple of months were dead wrong. Hell, the people who said that if she were elected president that she’d be dead within her first term were arguing a counterfactual and I can easily imagine someone who argues that counterfactuals aren’t worth arguing against.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                Can you imagine answering North’s actual question?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                If a serious health problem is one that would not be fixed by retirement, it’s been demonstrated that Clinton had no serious health problems.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Can you imagine answering North’s actual question?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Do you feel that “it’s been demonstrated that Clinton had no serious health problems” is not an answer to North’s actual question?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                If you’re going to quote yourself, quote yourself accurately.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                I am quoting myself accurately.

                But I am working up to the question of whether you feel that “a serious health problem is one that would not be fixed by retirement” is a true statement.

                p -> q

                It seems to me that p is true and that q is true (and, importantly, that p -> q is true).

                Do you feel that any of those premises are false, CJ?

                Because, tautologically, if q is true, then q is true.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                Re-read your 10:15 post. The re-read North’s question. And in case you want to duck again, let me lay out the question making explicit the context in which North asked it. In 2016, did Hillary Clinton have a health problem that would have interfered with her ability to serve as President. Not something that she could survive by retirement, but something that would interfere with her ability to serve as President. That’s the question. Answer it or say you won’t.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                Without you providing the definition of a “serious” health problem, I’m stuck coming up with one of my own.

                I’m happy to say that a health problem that can be mitigated by a relaxed schedule is *NOT* a serious health problem.

                And, using that definition, it’s been demonstrated that Hillary did not having a serious health problem. That’s *OBVIOUSLY* true.

                If you dislike that definition of “serious health problem”, that’s cool.

                Give me a different one. If you don’t want to give me a different one, that’s cool… I’ll keep using mine.

                Cool?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                You’re not “stuck” with coming up with a definition of your own. You chose a definition that would allow you to duck North’s question. The issue in 2016 was not whether Hillary had a health condition that would not be mitigated by quiet retirement, but whether she had a health problem that required a quiet retirement. That she was, in 2016, unfit for reasons of health to assume the office of the Presidency and carry out its duties.
                But you know all this. By this point, the dodge is obvious.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                Let’s hammer this definition down.

                Your definition of a “serious health problem” is “a problem that REQUIRES a quiet retirement” (presumably “lest she get obviously sicker or die or something”)?

                I have to say that the honest answer to that question is “I don’t know”, given that, following the election, her schedule was lightened considerably.

                I think using the definition you’re giving us, nobody could possibly know the answer outside of a very small group of people… like Clinton’s doctors, Bill Clinton, and Hillary Clinton herself.

                Which makes North’s question unanswerable.

                I think it’s better to assume that North’s question has an answer and my definition allows for the question to be answered.

                But if you want to push for “I don’t know, you don’t know, nobody except for a small group of 3-5 people knows!”, I won’t stop you.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                North’s question is not “unanswerable.” People had and expressed views about HRC’s health back in 2016. What was the evidence for those views, how good was it at the time, and does it look better or worse in hindsight? Those questions are “answerable” even if the Truth about her health is “known” only to a small group of people whose views on the matter are easy enough to figure out. Ask Hillary.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                If your definition of “serious health problem” is one that requires retirement, there’s no way to say that Clinton had one given that her schedule lightened *CONSIDERABLY* starting around December of 2016.

                You’re stuck arguing whether or not she’d have gotten more and worse cases of pneumonia had she been president for four years.

                And there’s no way to know.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck
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                Read it again.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Jaybird
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              Huh. You and Kazzy argued and no conservatives swooped in. Nearly identical to a year and a half of visible decline from our Commander-in-Chief with the press actively denying the problem.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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              The Republican criticism was much closer to Jon Stewart’s.

              Do I need to provide links to Parkinson conspiracy theories?

              Jon Stewart’s reaction was entirely reasonable, in fact, it was so reasonable it was what basically _everyone_ who watched understood, and the reason pressure was put on him to resign.

              That’s not what Republicans were saying. It probably was what _some_ of the Republicans were saying, sure, but that doesn’t actually work as a partisan complaint because Trump is _also_ noticeably slowing and has been doing so pretty clearly since he was elected almost 8 years ago. So almost none of them restricted their complaints to just ‘He is old and slowed’, and instead invented things.

              There were, indeed, people before this who pointed out that both candidates were slowing, that neither of them should have been running at their age as a mere practical matter, and that the media and the Democrats were ignoring this. (As were the Republicans, but the Republicans are already ignoring every other reason Trump should not be running for president so it’s not weird they ignore yet another.)

              And they get props, sure, and I guess criticize both the Democrats who denied this about Biden and Biden’s staff for hiding this.

              But that doesn’t make the _right_ correct here. The right’s media cannot help but parrot absurd conspiracy theories, they have absurdly low levels of signal to noise, and they do not get to claim that what they said and was pushed back on was them being ‘right’, because a huge chunk of it was just outright conspiracy theories that are identical to previous conspiracy theories.

              It’s actually possible for Democrats to be wrong about something and the Republicans to still be batsh*t looney-tunes on it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
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                I wouldn’t argue otherwise.

                But there are a number of criticisms against Kamala that get brushed aside because Republicans and “the right” make worse criticisms based on old news, nothingburgers, and stuff that is clearly taken out of context.

                And treating the criticism that Kamala has never received a single vote outside of California as if it’s the same thing as Reactionaries linking to her tweet supporting bail funds for mostly peaceful protestors is *NOT* to the benefit of “the left”… any more than arguing that Biden just had a bad night was to the left’s benefit.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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                Ah yes, because people voting for a combined presidential vice presidential ticket aren’t REALLY voting for the VP.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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                Touché.

                But I wouldn’t reach any conclusions about Pence’s popularity based on the number of votes Trump got in 2020 (Second greatest number of votes in history!).Report

  2. Pinky
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    I’m not sure what to make of these admissions of failure which include pledges to not improve.

    You had: center-right-wing coverage, lunatic-right-wing coverage, and the Emperor’s flapping dong. You don’t trust the extreme right, and that’s fine. But you looked at Biden’s dong, read the NYT, and said “that’s not Biden’s dong”. And now, you’re declaring that you were mistaken, but correct in not trusting the extreme right.

    And I want to make it clear, I’m not saying “I told you so” as a brag; I’m saying as a complaint. A lot of people here have opinions I don’t agree with, and use sources that wouldn’t be my first choice, and I look at them. What are the lefties on this site even doing? Of all sites, why would you hang out on one where you can get multiple takes on an issue? If you say, as pillsy does above, that the only people who said that Biden was too old also say that Harris is unqualified because she’s childless, then you’re not reading the other side. And that (plus denial) left you surprised during the debate.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Pinky
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      If you say, as pillsy does above, that the only people who said that Biden was too old also say that Harris is unqualified because she’s childless, then you’re not reading the other side

      I’m pretty sure that’s not what I said.

      I am certain it’s not what I meant.

      What I said was a direct response to JB’s suggestion that this means we should trust Republican criticisms more. That’s actually dumb, and following his advice would lead you exactly where I said it would.

      It also doesn’t have much to do with your criticism which is actually right. The issue isn’t that I couldn’t see the metaphorical dong, it’s that I was pretty sure I could but didn’t want to say anything about it because it was politically and socially inconvenient to do.

      Exactly like the people in the story.Report

      • Pinky in reply to pillsy
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        You said exactly what I said. The problem is you’re treating all right-wing sources the same, from the slightly right to the extremes.Report

        • pillsy in reply to Pinky
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          Well yeah I said exactly what you said because I agree with what you said!

          But I don’t agree at all with what I thought JB said—he has since rephrased his argument into something I don’t disagree with.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to pillsy
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            JB’s suggestion that this means we should trust Republican criticisms more

            My suggestion was not about Republican criticisms at all. Republican criticisms were given a token representing them because they weren’t the focus.

            My complaint was about the knee-jerk *RESPONSE* to the criticisms.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Pinky
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      But you looked at Biden’s dong, read the NYT, and said “that’s not Biden’s dong”.

      I feel you’re sorta doing the same thing here you’re accusing people here of doing, but you’re doing it to voters instead of the media.

      The voters were not, actually, enthused about Biden. And I’m not talking about the left, and I’m not talking about the discontent at his handling of Israel and Palestine. This is despite him doing some objectively good things the party wanted, but the electorate has completely ignored. And a huge chunk of that is how old he is. Not just physically, but politically. He feels like someone who, occassionally, slowly, is willing to do something progressive. And that is not what Democrats want.

      So how did he end up president? Well, because he was Not Trump, but how how did he end up the nominee? Because it was His Turn in politics, and it was His Turn because the Democratic leadership basically operates like that. Over a bunch of younger people. But he has waited patiently.

      Like Hillary had. And lost.

      Like Obama hadn’t waited, and _won_.

      The Democratic party is controlled by people who have been waiting patiently for years, and demand their turns. The new and exciting Kamala Harris is 60, and she ended up VP because it was her turn eight years later, or maybe the next cycle. She just is getting in early.

      The Democratic voters don’t really have a say in that. I guess they had a say in that four years ago, but this time around, everyone just stepped aside for Biden, and that wasn’t the Democratic voter’s doing, it was the people who were perfectly willing to play within the system so that when they were 70 and their turn rolled around they would be supported.Report

      • Pinky in reply to DavidTC
        Ignored
        says:

        I’m not talking about the voters, except to the extent that they mirrored the kind of thinking I’ve seen here for the last year or so. Whether you like Biden or not, whether you like his ideology and administration or not, that’s beside the point. How he got the 2020 nomination is beside the point. Even whether he could win in his current condition is beside the point. He’s in no condition to be president, and it’s been obvious for a while, and anyone who denied it has either been inattentive or lying to himself or others. The polls indicated that the voters felt the same way, but they don’t post every day on a political site. We do. Everyone here knew and pretended they didn’t.Report

  3. Steve Casburn
    Ignored
    says:

    That’s a great set of points and analogies, Michael–thank you for writing it.Report

  4. Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    I’ll repeat what I said back on July 2nd:

    I see the choice as being:
    “Biden is going to lose against Trump and so the choice is run Biden against Trump and lose to Trump *OR* you can have Trump go up against… WHAT’S IN THE BOX?”

    The choice isn’t “Biden or Trump”.

    Since I assume that Biden will lose to Trump, I see the choice as being “Trump or WHAT’S IN THE BOX”.

    What’s in the box is Kamala.

    On one level, that’s good. Kamala has a chance to win the election. That is infinitely better than Biden’s chances.

    On another level… well, I’d rather someone even more likely to win the election.
    That said, I don’t want to play the old “bring me a rock” game.
    “Here’s a rock.”
    “I wanted a smaller rock.”
    “Here’s a smaller rock.”
    “I wanted one that was a little more red.”

    I think that, ideally, I’d have wanted a convention where the delegates fought it out for their various candidates and it strikes me as likely that the candidate most likely to win the floor vote would be the strongest candidate.

    Granted, others have said that there are good politicians who could win an election (but not a primary) and other good politicians who could win a primary (but not an election) and so we’d be going into a situation rife with uncertainty and there is a non-zero chance that a floor fight would result in enough damage being done to enough politicians that *NOBODY* could win against Trump in November. That is: The convention would do active harm instead of active good and could blow up the November election.

    My thoughts on that is that if the Party is in such a state where that could happen, I’d rather know that for certain than merely suspect it enough to use it as a reason to not do it.

    But much of the job of politicking is stuff like calling up delegates and getting them to say “okay, fine, I’ll pledge to Harris” and Harris and her team did the work on that and that’s an indicator that she’s capable of doing something that isn’t trivially easy with a hard deadline.

    But I still think that she’s got a good chance of not beating Trump either. (That said, she’s got a chance to win, and that puts her ahead of Biden. She is what’s in the box and what’s in the box is what I asked for.)Report

  5. Chip Daniels
    Ignored
    says:

    “They say he’s strong as an ox, leaps tall buildings in a single bounds. We don’t have that kind of warped reality on our side,” Buttigieg said of Trump. “On the contrary, the president confronted that reality in what must have been one of the most difficult decisions for an American president to make ever.”

    “And he did something that I don’t think Donald Trump could even conceive of doing, which is putting his own interests aside for the country,” he added.

    In a statement, Trump campaign Communications Director Steven Cheung defended the former president as having “more energy and more stamina than anyone in politics.”
    https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/28/buttigieg-voters-trump-age-00171533

    Steven Cheung went on to marvel at Trump’s wardrobe, saying his robes were the most amazing and beautiful robes anyone has ever seen in fact, several big husky men with tears in their eyes said so.Report

  6. DensityDuck
    Ignored
    says:

    The person Freddie de Boer ought to be blaming for this whole thing is Joe Biden, not Kamala Harris or The DNC or whoever. Biden’s the one who insisted that he was Just Fine Thank You and definitely capable of running for President, for long enough that nobody bothered seriously campaigning against him this year.Report

    • Chris in reply to DensityDuck
      Ignored
      says:

      Yes. This is the sort of situation that I’m not sure any party in our system could avoid, were it to happen to one of their politicians, because the incentives for the politician and his people to hold onto power are just too strong.

      More than Biden, I blame Biden’s people, who clearly knew how it would look if he had a lot of exposure, and spent the last couple years seriously limiting how much we saw of him, and limiting his message when in public (limiting that made it seriously difficult for him to actually sell himself as a candidate).

      The closest I come to an actual conspiracy theory is the idea that there may have been a faction within Biden’s camp that believed he shouldn’t run for reelection, and it was this faction that pushed for a debate before the convention, knowing his performance would be a disaster.Report

  7. James K
    Ignored
    says:

    Honestly, if it proved that the Democratic leadership had somehow forced Biden out that would actually really increase my respect for the party. A US political party that could get over its addle-pated President worship to remove a weak candidate? That would be far more than I would expect.

    Also, the people complaining about how quickly Harris sewed up party support remind of the people who cried foul when Buttigieg and Klobuchar dropped out of the 2020 primary and endorsed Biden on the same day. Politics is about organising a coalition to achieve your objectives. Complaining you’ve been out-organised in an election is like complaining that the other sprinters in the race can run faster than you.Report

    • North in reply to James K
      Ignored
      says:

      Those folks, Freddie assuredly among them, remain bitter about Sanders not winning the nomination in 2016 and 2020 regardless of the fact that he got outvoted both times (and outvoted worse in 2020 than in 2016).

      I think it was Jared Bernstein who said that a political parties core priorities are, in order of importance:
      #1 assembling coalitions of voters and agreeing on a platform of policies that addresses the various coalition members principles while not directly violating the other members principles.
      #2 selecting nominees who will adhere to the parties platform.
      #3 selecting nominees who will win elections .
      A lot of people tend to forget that #3 is mostly useless if you don’t achieve #1 and #2.Report

      • Chris in reply to North
        Ignored
        says:

        To be clear, Freddie is about as representative of any segment of the left as I am of professional basketball players, having played the sport (mediocrely) in high school.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Chris
          Ignored
          says:

          He was one of the organizers of the largest anti-war protests in Connecticut back when Dumbya was president.

          That’s at least college-level.Report

        • North in reply to Chris
          Ignored
          says:

          I know Freddie himself isn’t representative of the left but when he waxes at length on this subject he’s singing from a pretty standard berniesta-leftist songbook. A rare moment of venn overlap with the leftists whom he often criticizes.Report

  8. John Puccio
    Ignored
    says:

    The two narratives are not at all in tension. They did not exist concurrently.

    Once the jig was up, there was a pivot, and as widely reported, the democratic leadership applied a coordinated campaign to have Biden not accept his party’s nomination. Yes, they conspired to do that. So we can dare call it what it was.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to John Puccio
      Ignored
      says:

      Can it be called a conspiracy when it’s done in the open? I would posit that it cannot.Report

      • John Puccio in reply to Slade the Leveller
        Ignored
        says:

        You really think it was poll numbers that convinced Biden & Co to stand down?

        I’m looking forward to the books that will be written in the years to come.Report

        • Pinky in reply to John Puccio
          Ignored
          says:

          I guess technically you could have a conspiracy of weaker people manipulating a stronger, but typically the word isn’t used that way. I’d call it “behind the scenes”.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Pinky
            Ignored
            says:

            Nietzsche totally has a theory about this!Report

          • InMD in reply to Pinky
            Ignored
            says:

            This seems about as out in the open as it could’ve been. Plenty of people went on record and even those that didn’t officially let it be known that they were having discussions about the issue.Report

            • KenB in reply to InMD
              Ignored
              says:

              A conspiracy theory I saw was that right after the fundraiser that Clooney mentioned in his op ed, a bunch of scheming was initiated (including Obama) to nudge Joe out, including pushing for the early debate.Report

            • Pinky in reply to InMD
              Ignored
              says:

              Maybe I’m wrong on this, but I don’t think I’m drifting into conspiratorial thinking to believe that some of the conversations with Biden, or among donors, weren’t made public. I guess technically I’m assuming that powerful people were pulling strings behind the scenes? But they were pulling the public ones in public and had access to private ones as well, so how much conjecture is that really?

              Then you get into a tricky question: if “A took place behind the scenes” shows up in the NYT, does that indicate that conspiratorial act A took place, and/or is the act of releasing that information to the NYT the conspiratorial act?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky
                Ignored
                says:

                I just don’t think, “A variety of Democratic Party stakeholders applied a mix of public and private pressure to get a desired political outcome,” rises to the level of “conspiracy” on its own.

                I can envision details that about the private campaign that would make me think it’s a conspiracy (if it involved certain corrupt forms of pressure like bribery or blackmail). I haven’t seen anyone even suggest that’s what happened here, though.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to pillsy
                Ignored
                says:

                The word “conspiracy” has a negative connotation because the essential ingredients are:
                1. Secrecy; The action needs to be hidden from public view and usually for reasons that are:
                2. Malign intent- Conspiracies are malign in their intent- they intend to work against the public interest or public benefit.

                Without those two criteria, a conspiracy is no different than “a group of people working together to create something”.

                But if someone wants to make Nancy Pelosi once again sound like a badass, I won’t stand in their way.Report

          • John Puccio in reply to Pinky
            Ignored
            says:

            I wouldn’t pretend to know which camp were the weaker people in this scenario.

            We don’t know what was actually done to persuade Biden & Co to relinquish their pursuit of maintaining power, but I suspect it was both a carrot and stick approach. I’m quite sure we don’t know the half of it, or what “the hard way” was in actuality. There is an iceberg analogy to be made here to the extent some of it is out in the open, but most of it was not..

            As I said, looking forward to the books to be written.Report

            • Pinky in reply to John Puccio
              Ignored
              says:

              I agree with this, but I don’t trust the sources of those books. Although in this case, the sources are more likely to be the kind of get-ahead-and-play-the-game people who were probably involved.Report

            • InMD in reply to John Puccio
              Ignored
              says:

              I would think at minimum the ‘hard way’ was something like ‘we will green light anyone down ballot who feels like they have to run against you to do so and you will be persona non grata rather than elder statesman emeritus as far as the party is concerned.’ Probably worse stuff than that too. But I still struggle to call something that happened so out in the open a conspiracy just because we don’t know exactly who said what.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD
                Ignored
                says:

                I think that the logic is something like:

                1. Conspiracies are false
                2. This thing is true
                3. Therefore this thing is not a conspiracyReport

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Conspiracies are false? What does that mean?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Slade the Leveller
                Ignored
                says:

                Excellent question. Every working day there are hundreds, if not thousands, of conspiracy cases on the dockets of our state and federal courts, so conspiracies are a real thing. Most are small-time stuff; some are quite big. Most of them advance private interests; but sometimes not. There are alleged conspiracies, some pretty well-founded, to overturn election results, for example. There have been conspiracies to overthrow governments, some successful, most not.
                Most people who use “conspiracy theory” in a derogatory way mean something like the tendency of some people to attribute outcomes they don’t like to the directing hand of a small, secretive group corruptly acting for some malign purpose. Sometimes such things happen, but there is a mentality that sees it as pervasive, ignoring how often there is no directing hand, or identifying as a “conspiracy” any insufficiently publicized collective decision arrived at by ordinary, legitimate processes of give-and-take. A broken clock may be right twice a day, but it is usually easy enough to see when a clock is broken rather than, say five minutes fast or ten minutes slow.Report

              • John Puccio in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Yeah, if you hear the word conspiracy and immediately think of “Pizza-gate” – I can understand a reluctance to apply the term to anything that doesn’t sound ridiculous.Report

              • Philip H in reply to John Puccio
                Ignored
                says:

                Well we could compare it to Watergate where there was intent to hide who did what and when and why . . . or to January 6th where there was intent to achieve a certain outcome by force but where the actors were unknown at the time … or to Enron … or to any number of other things more serious then Pizza gate. Excpet the motive was known, the players largely operated in the open with the support of the press, and they haven’t actually broken any laws . . .

                So, much like the ACA, I have to wonder why conservatives refuse to just take the victory and move on.Report

              • John Puccio in reply to InMD
                Ignored
                says:

                I think we fundamentally disagree about the level of transparency and how much who and what matter. Yes, the intent was known, but I’d argue the public pressure was an integral part of the conspiracy to get him off the ticket.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to John Puccio
                Ignored
                says:

                Most things that are actually conspiracies don’t rely on public pressure. Kind of defeats the purpose.Report

              • John Puccio in reply to CJColucci
                Ignored
                says:

                McCarthyism, the Dreyfus Affair?

                Not conspiracies either?Report

              • Philip H in reply to John Puccio
                Ignored
                says:

                I wouldn’t classify McCarthyism as a conspiracy. McCarthy was also quite open about what he was doing, what his objectives were and how he intended to do it. Heck he even held public congressional hearings to achieve his objectives.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to John Puccio
                Ignored
                says:

                McCarthyism wasn’t a conspiracy; it was largely the claim that there was a conspiracy. “A conspiracy so immense,” if memory serves, of always fluctuating numbers and no reliably identified conspirators. Unlike Nixon, who actually found a spy, McCarthy never could.
                Certainly there was a conspiracy to serve up Dreyfus as a scapegoat for treachery committed by others. A pretty standard conspiracy. To the extent public pressure was involved, it was public pressure to expose the conspiracy. To be sure, a large part of the public was suckered by the conspirators, but the conspirators did standard conspiracy stuff to achieve their ends. bamboozling the public was part of the cover-up.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
                Ignored
                says:

                I am always saddened when I think about how the Venona project was cancelled.

                Everything yet untranslated is old news, I guess. Nothingburgers.Report

        • Slade the Leveller in reply to John Puccio
          Ignored
          says:

          Maybe he just did the right thing. Who knows, and, more importantly, does it really matter?Report

          • John Puccio in reply to Slade the Leveller
            Ignored
            says:

            A sitting U.S. President just went through his party’s primary process and earned an overwhelming majority of delegates to earn said party’s nomination. That President had every intention of accepting the nomination and competing in the general election. Then his party revolted against him and pressured him to stand down.

            Justified or not, I think it matters that we find out as much as we can. An incredible precedent has just been set.

            And no, he didn’t just do “the right thing”. C’mon now.Report

            • Slade the Leveller in reply to John Puccio
              Ignored
              says:

              To be honest, I was kind of surprised primaries were even held. Why bother with an incumbent?

              What is it you’d like to learn? A private organization decided to change course. Whether there was chicanery involved or not isn’t going to change the American polity for the better one iota.Report

  9. Brandon Berg
    Ignored
    says:

    Calling Harris a DEI pick is neither racist nor incorrect, but it is beside the point. Biden explicitly promised to choose a female running mate, and given how batsh*t crazy Democrats went over race in 2020, it’s hard to believe that her ancestry wasn’t a major factor in the choice. It is, at the very least, a well-grounded suspicion.

    But politics isn’t like STEM. It doesn’t select for the best and brightest, because voters don’t want the best and brightest. Joe Biden is a mediocre white man, and if he had chosen a white male running mate, he would have been a mediocre white man, too. Constraining his choice to the 7-8% of the population who are women with substantial black ancestry didn’t prevent him from choosing the best person for the job, because no one who was even close to being the best person for the job was ever on the table at all.Report

    • CJColucci in reply to Brandon Berg
      Ignored
      says:

      I’d go further than this. Most of the time, there is simply no such thing as the “best person for the job.” This comes up all the time in judicial appointments. The number of lawyers and lower court judges who would be at least as good as the current crop of Supreme Court Justices is probably in the low- to mid-four figures. (I believe I could do the job competently, though I would not pick me.) There are far more than enough to allow a relatively deep pool even if you sub-divide it for political or ethnic or geographic or other considerations. Nobody says anything when Republicans fish in Republican waters and Democrats fish in Democratic waters. Joe Biden was widely criticized for pledging to appoint a black woman, and eventually picking one. But the pool of highly-qualified black women is deep enough for one to do that. To be sure, the partisans of one candidate or another tried to make the case that the proposed candidate was in some way “better.” Some people threw up Sri Srinvasin, a judge of south Asian origin, of the D.C. Circuit. He is certainly a highly-qualified candidate and entirely unobjectionable, even though no Republican President will appoint him, and no one should expect that. But the case that, by some objective measure, Srinivasin, whom I very much like, is clearly better than Ketanji Brown Jackson is pretty much made up. (I went so far as to predict that if Biden got another slot, he would appoint Srinivasin precisely because he was south Asian, and would be right to do so.)
      Picking from a small pool, however, can create problems. If, for example, you were looking for a black conservative Republican in the 1980s, the pool was rather shallow. If Clarence Thomas wasn’t a DEI pick, I don’t know who was. A white Republican with his resume wouldn’t have gotten within sniffing distance of an appointment.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Brandon Berg
      Ignored
      says:

      He limited himself to about 3 people, between the color, sex, and reasonable resume.Report

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