SCOTUS Opinions on Trump Immunity, Corner Post, and Netchoice: Read Them For Yourself
With the Supreme Court term finally ending, three more opinions came down from the Supreme Court involving Corner Post, Netchoice, and the much-awaited Trump immunity.
All blurbs from SCOTUSBlog:
In Corner Post, Inc. v. Board of Governors, the court holds that a claim under the Administrative Procedure Act to challenge an agency action first comes into being when the plaintiff is injured by final agency action.
Corner post SCOTUSThe court vacates both decisions on Texas and Florida’s social media laws, in Moody v. NetChoice, LLC and NetChoice v. Paxton, explaining that neither of the lower courts properly considered the nature of the First Amendment challenges.
Netchoice SCOTUSIn Trump v. United States, the court holds that a former president has absolute immunity for his core constitutional powers.
Trump Immunity SCOTUSSome of the key writing, first Chief Justice Roberts:
As for the dissents, they strike a tone of chilling doom that is wholly disproportionate to what the Court actually does today—conclude that immunity extends to official discussions between the President and his Attorney General, and then remand to the lower courts to determine “in the
first instance” whether and to what extent Trump’s remaining alleged conduct is entitled to immunity.
This case poses a question of lasting significance: When may a former President be prosecuted for official acts taken during his Presidency? Our Nation has never before needed an answer. But in addressing that question today, unlike the political branches and the public at large, we cannot afford to fixate exclusively, or even primarily, on present exigencies. In a case like this one, focusing on “transient results” may have profound consequences for the separation of powers and for the future of our Republic. Youngstown, 343 U. S., at 634 (Jackson, J., concurring). Our perspective must be more farsighted, for “[t]he peculiar circumstances of the moment may render a measure more or less wise, but cannot render it more or less constitutional.” Chief Justice John Marshall, A Friend of the Constitution No. V, Alexandria Gazette, July 5, 1819, in John Marshall’s Defense of McCulloch v. Maryland 190–191 (G. Gunther ed. 1969).
Our first President had such a perspective. In his Farewell Address, George Washington reminded the Nation
that “a Government of as much vigour as is consistent with the perfect security of Liberty is indispensable.” 35 Writings of George Washington 226 (J. Fitzpatrick ed. 1940). A government “too feeble to withstand the enterprises of faction,” he warned, could lead to the “frightful despotism” of
“alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge.” Id., at 226–227. And the way to avoid that cycle, he explained, was to ensure that government powers remained “properly distributed and adjusted.” Id., at 226.It is these enduring principles that guide our decision in this case. The President enjoys no immunity for his unofficial acts, and not everything the President does is official. The President is not above the law. But Congress may not criminalize the President’s conduct in carrying out the responsibilities of the Executive Branch under the Constitution. And the system of separated powers designed by the Framers has always demanded an energetic, independent Executive. The President therefore may not be prosecuted for exercising his core constitutional powers, and he is entitled, at a minimum, to a presumptive immunity from prosecution for all his official acts. That immunity applies equally to all occupants of the Oval Office, regardless of politics, policy, or party.
From Justice Jackson in dissent:
The majority of my colleagues seems to have put their trust in our Court’s ability to prevent Presidents from becoming Kings through case-by-case application of the indeterminate standards of their new Presidential accountability paradigm. I fear that they are wrong. But, for all our sakes, I hope that they are right
From Justice Thomas, concurring:
Respecting the protections that the Constitution provides for the Office of the Presidency secures liberty. In that same vein, the Constitution also secures liberty by separating the powers to create and fill offices. And, there are serious questions whether the Attorney General has violated that
structure by creating an office of the Special Counsel that has not been established by law. Those questions must be answered before this prosecution can proceed. We must respect the Constitution’s separation of powers in all its forms, else we risk rendering its protection of liberty a parchment guarantee.
From Justice Barrett, concurring in part:
I appreciate the Court’s concern that allowing into evidence official acts for which the President cannot be held criminally liable may prejudice the jury. Ante, at 31. But the rules of evidence are equipped to handle that concern on a case-by-case basis. Most importantly, a trial court can exclude evidence of the President’s protected conduct “if its probative value is substantially outweighed by a danger of. . . unfair prejudice” or “confusing the issues.” Fed. Rule Evid. 403; see also Rule 105 (requiring the court to “restrict the evidence to its proper scope and instruct the jury accordingly”). The balance is more likely to favor admitting evidence of an official act in a bribery prosecution, for instance, than one in which the protected conduct has little connection to the charged offense. And if the evidence comes in, the trial court can instruct the jury to consider it only for lawful purposes. See Richardson v. Marsh, 481 U. S. 200, 206–207 (1987). I see no need to depart from that familiar and time-tested procedure here.
From Justice Sotomayor in dissent:
The majority’s single-minded fixation on the President’s need for boldness and dispatch ignores the countervailing need for accountability and restraint. The Framers were not so single-minded. In the Federalist Papers, after “endeavor[ing] to show” that the Executive designed by the Constitution “combines . . . all the requisites to energy,” Alexander Hamilton asked a separate, equally important question: “Does it also combine the requisites to safety, in a republican sense, a due dependence on the people, a due responsibility?” The Federalist No. 77, p. 507 (J. Harvard Library ed. 2009). The answer then was yes, based in part upon the President’s vulnerability to “prosecution in the common course of law.” Ibid. The answer after today is no. Never in the history of our Republic has a President had reason to believe that he would be immune from criminal prosecution if he used the trappings of his office to violate the criminal law. Moving forward, however, all former Presidents will be cloaked in such immunity. If the occupant of that office misuses official power for personal gain, the criminal law that the rest of us must abide will not provide a backstop.
With fear for our democracy, I dissent.
I just checked. I’ts 824am local time and Biden has not Officially drone stirked or arrested tfg. WTF man? Get with it.Report
Obama already established that you could drone American citizens back in 2011. That’s something we established that presidents could do more than a decade ago.Report
If that was the same as this then there wouldn’t be a case in front of the Supreme’s. Even taking what Obama did, this extends it a million times farther.Report
I kinda wish that we had established that it was wrong to drone strike American Citizens back then, though.
That would have been nice.
Oh, well. At least we’ve established that Biden can do it.
And, I suppose, whomever is president after Biden can do it too.Report
Hey, at least we’ve established that the debt ceiling never matters again.
The president can just order the Treasury to keep paying everyone. We don’t have to have discussions over the 14th, or talk about minting platinum coins, or anything.
In fact, the president can order the Treasury to issue checks however he wants. If the Republicans cut social Security, who cares? He can just have them keep issuing checks in the old amounts.Report
I think that doing that might still be illegal and the courts can still put a stay on it, but whether the president can be prosecuted for it has been settled.Report
How does SCOTUS enforce a stay?Report
They don’t.
Andrew Jackson covered this already.
There’s also a long history of folks complaining about “Judicial Supremacy” in Marbury vs Madison.
It might be time to visit some of those and see if the positions you were arguing against five minutes ago much have utility five minutes from now.Report
…who are you talking to here and what could you conceivable mean?
You understand we are proposing these things _sarcastically_, right? We do not actually think it’s a good idea they are now, apparently, fine to do. The president should not, in fact, be able to order Treasury to write a check to anyone in any amount they want.Report
Oh, well, if you’re not arguing it seriously, I won’t tell you to stop.
Please don’t get irritated if I ask “is this a real position you’re holding?”, though.Report
It’s a ‘real position I’m holding’, in the sense I’m pointing out the absurdity of what the Supreme Court has decided.
Do I think we should do it? No. I’m just pointing out absurd inconsidencies of the right.
Hey, it sure was weird that apparently states could refuse to accept Medicaid expansion. Right? That feels really weird now, right? Maybe we should have just threatened to throw state governments in prison until they accept it?
It is honestly astonishing how utterly unprincipled the ‘conservatives’ on the court are.
If I was president, I wouldn’t screw around with the debt limit, I’d order, in one month, the Supreme Court building barred permanently and tell the FBI to arrest any meeting of two or more members. (And not to worry, I’d preemptively pardon the the FBI.)
Oh, do they suddenly think that’s not how the US should work? Well, it’s better than my _previous_ thing I would have done if president, which was to announce I was going to drone strike them all a month later.
I have something I say all the time: The only way to get the government to actually fix problems is make those problems impact rich people.
Well, the only way to get the Supreme Court to recognize extremely abusive government that denies people their rights, and that is to aim that straight at them.Report
The Court seems to have made a lot of work for itself, from extending the time allowed to claim damage from a rule, to requiring the courts exercise their own judgement on how to interpret regulatory statute, to requiring jury trials in order to impose regulatory civil penalties.Report
What they want – or so it appears – is to create a world where there is so much potential litigation that only those opposing regulation will take it up. They also seem to have opened a lot of cans of worms to allow district courts to create reasons to dismiss.Report
Sadly, there are other narratives still allowed to exist on social media. Here’s Spike Cohen, the Libertarian Party’s VP nominee for 2020:
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All the people worried about Chevron being struck down don’t need to worry, the president can now just order OSHA to fine companies _regardless_ of the law. Or even arrest them!
Sure, they might eventually win in court, but then what are they going to do? The president will just order Treasury not to pay them off.Report
Will folks be able to appeal to the judiciary under this paradigm or not?
Will they have access to, for example, a jury trial?
Because I like the idea of people being able to appeal to the judiciary (and, for that matter, jury trials).Report
Sure. I don’t know what’s it’s going to _do_ when the president can just order the executive branch to ignore the courts without, apparently, any legal repercussions, but, sure, they can appeal all the want.
The court will award them damages and tell the executive to stop, and the executive will not stop and not pay those damages.
I guess eventually we’ll have to start creating crimes for people who are literally trying to just do their jobs, say ‘Yes, the President, your boss, told you do to X, but that thing is not what is lawful, you have to actually do Y, or you yourself will be charged with a crime’.
That seems really complicated at an individual level. Perhaps we could invent some sort of chief executive to give them orders, but make this one _actually subject_ to US law.
This entire situation is unimaginably stupid.
They already get jury trials.
The court didn’t change anything about how any of that worked, they just said that regulatory agencies couldn’t figure out the meanings of things that Congress had written…things written with the explicit understanding that regulatory agencies _would_ figure out.
To be clear, Spike Cohen is lying there. Laws are very explicitly written with the understanding that regulatory agencies will interpret them, and Congress has the ability to both write more specific laws to start with (and often does) and revise anything they think the regulatory agency got wrong (and often does).
Chevron is the idea that ‘Courts should not second guess how the regulatory agencies interpret the law’…to some extent. It’s not absolute. But it does mean if the law says that wetlands are protected, and the law didn’t define wetlands, than Congress was expecting the agency it put in charge of that law to define wetlands, and the court itself shouldn’t try to come up with a definition.
Now that isn’t true, which means anyone can challenge literally anything a regulatory agency did on the grounds that wasn’t what Congress intended.
And, once again, I repeat, this is always something Congress can change if the regulatory agency is wrong, so the actual point is not to get regulations to match what Congress wants, (Cause what Congress wanted was for them to decide) but to allow the _courts_ to override this.
The fanatic, insane, far right courts, specifically. They can just constantly invent ‘Congress must have meant this when they passed a law 50 years ago, they just never bothered to make it clear despite regulatory agencies doing something else’.Report
It’s too bad that Spike Cohen is lying because he’s really eloquent and breaks it down in easy-to-understand terms why the ruling wasn’t as bad as people say.
The explanation that congress should just pass a law if they want words defined differently probably needs some polish but…
Well, it’s moot now.
We’ll see if the narrative that this was remedying an excess holds up after a few months.Report
Libertarians have always hated how the regulatory system worked, because it means laws actually exist. (That were not created by lobbyists.)
It is wildly impractical for the US Congress to figure out every single possible thing on every topic. They have no idea how nuclear reactors should be built, or what the safe levels of carbon monoxide and required ventilation are in an auto-repair shop, or exactly how the American Bison population should be managed.
It is fundamentally impossible for them to do all that. The world is too big and complex.
Libertarians _claim_ that reducing regulatory power and having Congress directly regulate via law will make the government smaller. They are dupes.
In the absence of regulatory agencies, which I remind people have long processes with public comment and discussions by scientists and engineers and generally run by experts in the field(1), the people who would actually end writing all the regulations (Which would be embedded in the laws and nearly impossible to change easily) would just be lobbyists.
1. A major problem, of course, is that experts in the field are often in a revolving door with the industry, leading to regulatory capture…but removing _any_ sort of expertise and required neutrality by essentially handing the regulatory process over _directly_ to the people being regulated, so they can just provide a bunch of misinformation (and large wads of cash) to Congress is not a solution! There is no better example of ‘regulatory capture’ than the US Congress.Report
“Libertarians have always hated how the regulatory system worked, because it means laws actually exist.”
(regulations aren’t laws)
“It is fundamentally impossible for them to do all that. The world is too big and complex.”
I recognize that you are just a uwu smol bean but there are in fact people whose brains can handle more than one thought at a time.Report
Marjorie Taylor Greene is a member of Congress.Report
This is essentially the heart of the Classified Documents case in Florida – where as a career civil servant I’d already be serving decades of jail time for what TFG did.Report
Yeah,, this actually makes things pretty surreal: The person giving the orders cannot be charged with crimes, not even conspiracy, for giving the orders, but everyone he gives orders to can be.Report
Considering that the National Marine Fisheries Service is part of my agency, I actually do know a lot about the case. And about how we got here. Like NMFS didn’t just decide to do this in 2013. There’s’ statutory requirements for observers.
50 CFR § 665.808 – Conditions for at-sea observer coverage.
50 CFR § 660.316 – Open access fishery—observer requirements.
And someone has to pay those observers. I bet if you went back through the NMFS budgets up to and through 2013 you’d find out whether Congress appropriated funds to do this.
But never mind the Executives Article II responsabilities.Report
When I was growing up the term “unfunded mandate” got thrown around a lot.
It was always, like, negatively, though.Report
IOETRW conservatives opposed kritocracy.Report
I find it kind of bizarre that the Supreme Court thinks it might be OK for the president to break the law when he might not have the time to see if what he’s doing is actually legal. Who else gets that kind of leeway?
OK, maybe cops. The Court has already made it quite clear they’re above the law.Report
From the only political mind worth following on Twitter:
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I don’t understand how ‘immune from civil damages for official acts that do not otherwise violate the law’ could possibly be extended to ‘immune from criminal prosecution for official acts that do violate the law’.
Whether or not something violates the law or not seems pretty important in *checks notes* criminal law.Report
I think that this is one of those legal things where you can’t go into this presuming that the law was violated.
That has to be proven first.
But I am not a lawyer.Report
It’s a pretty well-established principle that, if someone in the government officially does something that harms you, the entity you should be suing is the _the government_, not the person who made the decision or who carried it out.
And criminal violations of the law are one of the exceptions to that. I think maybe the only exception. And yes, it does require proving criminality…but you can do that as part of the lawsuit.
I don’t know exactly under what logic the courts got there for the president, but it’s not some crazy idea.
The crazy idea is that this can somehow be ‘extended’ into immunity for criminal acts. Official acts that are _crimes_ are literally supposed to be the main thing you don’t have immunity for!Report
Dude, have you looked at “Qualified Immunity” and what it does *IN PRACTICE*?
I mean, seriously. And that’s *QUALIFIED*.Report
No, qualified immunity is _exactly_ what I am talking about, because qualified immunity only applies to civil actions.
It doesn’t apply to actual criminal charges.
Police get away with not having criminal charges because DAs simply do not charge them, and even if they do, juries let them get away with anything.
Civil right lawsuits _would_ be a important counter to that, that is exactly how all pushback against police brutality has happened, except qualified immunity means they cannot happen.
The actual problem with qualified immunity is not the immunity for acts done officially, which almost all government employees have.
The problem is that there are supposed to be exceptions for this immunity for ‘if you deliberately violate the civil rights of other people’ , at which point you _can_ be sued…but the courts have added the nonsense of ‘And it must already be decided that this exact detailed thing violates civil rights’ instead of just ‘any reasonable person can see this violates civil rights by using basic knowledge of civil rights and basic logic’.Report
Dude, I am 100% with you. We ought to have recourse to stuff like “going to the courts when government entities have wronged you” and “have a jury trial” and stuff like that.
I wish that the SCotUS would recognize such rights!
Instead, they let the government literally get away with murder.
It sucks. I wish that there were a party that would nominate justices that would argue for stuff like “no, you can go to the courts for redress of this stuff” or “hey, you can get a jury trial”.Report
Yeah.
And here’s a good Twitter thread that sort of puts that decision in context with qualified immunity:
https://x.com/equalityAlec/status/1808137445923319911?t=z8rine46H1FjdlsN8QiWCw&s=19Report
My favorite tweet so far:
Unlike the Trump presidential immunity, immunity for judges, prosecutors, and police is not even ostensibly grounded in the Constitution. This is important, because the Court has explained that Congress can remove this immunity *at any time.* And states don’t have to have it.
And then:
To see this in action, take a look at judicial and prosecutorial immunity. The Court granted immunity in part because it said letting people sue prosecutors and judges when they break the law and destroy lives isn’t that important because officials could be prosecuted criminally.
But who decides who to prosecute? The very same people and institutions. Hence crimes by prosecutors and judges are almost entirely ignored. In my career, I’ve seen thousands of felonies committed by DAs and judges with no prosecution. A sham, as I explain in above article.
I wish that Congress would do its job.
Colorado has done something, at least:
Is it perfect?
No.
Is it better than nothing?
Yes.Report
What was the point of taking up the case then?Report
SCotUS upholds precedent all the time.
It keeps people tuning in.Report
What sort of insane nonsense is this? The president cannot be charged for official acts?
Committing crimes via his office is literally one of the most important things we have to worry about the president doing!
I’m just glancing at this decision now, I admit I haven’t fully looked at it, but it seems to me they are using the justification of stuff like ‘the president does not have to respond to subpoenas’ to justify that, ignoring that there’s a large difference between ‘Powers the president has while president because we cannot afford a distracted president and also he controls the executive branch so that gets into weird conflict of interest’ and ‘powers that magically immunize him from any sort of prosecution later on even after he has left office’.
Same with the idea that the president has immunity from _liability_, which is just…how the government works, government officials generally cannot be personally sued for harm. If someone were to operate in an official fashion, you have to sue them in the capability as a government official, not a private citizen.
But you know where we don’t apply that? Actual CRIMES.
In fact, we make crimes committed ‘under the color of law’ even worse crimes! Now, we haven’t ever applied that exact law, which mostly applies to the police, to the president, because…well, we haven’t needed to, and it’s possibly that law doesn’t exactly fit despite the President theoretically being in charge of law enforcement.
But my point is that, conceptually, we treat people who have a lot governmental power over others committing crimes, using their official powers, as a _worse_ crime, not ‘not a crime’. Or, at least, our _laws_ do.Report
It’s worth a reminder that the ‘official act’ we are discussing is ‘Order the Justice Department to lie about voting fraud as part of a conspiracy to convince Republican members of Congress to overturn the election and rioters to join in to help’.
Ordering the Justice Department to say lies about crimes that people have committed is _not_ a presidential power of any sort, it’s not some power we want the president to have that might _sometimes_ be used in a criminal manner, like asking them to investigate someone specific for political reasons, or selling pardons.
No, this was specifically ‘Justice Department, create some lies for me’, a thing that a president shouldn’t be doing even when he’s _not_ doing it as part of a conspiracy to commit a coup!Report
Were people “lying about voting fraud” in 2000?
How about in 2004?Report
…did anyone order the Justice Department to lie about voter fraud in 2000 or 2004?
If so, we should probably charge them also…well, actually, those orders by Trump were not charged as crimes (And probably are not actual crimes), they were merely used as evidence of a criminal conspiracy to introduce fraudulent EC votes, so I guess my next question would be ‘If someone did order the Justice Department to do that, did they order that as part of a criminal conspiracy?’
There’s an awful lot of nonsensical foundation being built here for your whataboutism. There is a difference between candidates lying about voter fraud (Which didn’t happen anyway in 2000 or 2004.) and the actual president ordering the Justice Department to lie about voter fraud as part of an attempted coup.Report
In fact, I’m going to state a principle that I’m going to repeat in the future about these imaginary ‘Everyone lies about voter fraud’ posts that DD keeps doing:
We can judge all such candidates by how closely the claims they made to the public match the claims they made in court. Not allegations proven, not guesses about possible outcomes. Just one simple test: Were they saying one thing to the public, and others things, or even nothing at all, to a court?
What were they willing to swear to, under oath, and does this even vaguely match the claims they were telling the public?
Because Trump’s entire nonsense of lies was something that no one seemed willing to swear to under oath.
Whereas we’d be hard-pressed to even find claims of criminality by anyone else that _should_ be in court. Instead, we find them doing things like ‘Asking for the recount as authorized by law’ and ‘challenging vote-counting procedure using factual information’.Report
You might also add a metric about how many of those pontificating on TFG’s behalf about this have now been disbarred . . .Report
Yeah, although that’s almost the same thing: Most of the lawyers were sanctioned for vaguely alluding to things in court that they could not possible prove and had no evidence towards proving. They usually weren’t willing state it exactly, but even just the obvious misleading statements piss the courts off.
And, in case someone doesn’t know, Rudy Giuliani was just, finally, disbarred in New York.
Democrat’s lawyers don’t get disbarred over these imaginary ‘claims of election fraud’ that DD keeps pretending Democrats do, which are again usually things like ‘We are confident the original count undercounted votes for me, and recount will show this’, which is not allegations of fraud in anyone’s book, whether or not that statement is proven correct. Or ‘The candidate should not be the person who does the vote counting’, which is a philosophical statement.Report
I’m kind of surprised which members of the Court concurred / dissented on Trump v US.Report
Why?Report
That’s just me kidding around.Report
It’s just another data point demonstrating that the entire Republican Party has broken into full scale opposition to democracy and the rule of law, unfettered by any need to play coy or hide behind lofty sounding principles.
They want a dictator, and they may well get it.Report
“A Republic, If You Can Keep It”
Few have wanted to for a long time…..I’m looking at both sides of the isle.Report
The Supreme Court outlined how a Republican President can rule as military dictator and the Democratic Party has cooties people are either refusing to take this seriously or going on about Obama’s drone strike.Report
I do think there is a terrible complacency among much of the Americna public.
Not the hard core MAGAs, I think they know exactly what they want.
But the apolitical Ariana Grande voter who may need to actually wake up one day and discover that their kid is being taught Christian Nationalism, or that their gay brother was arrested for sodomy, or that their sister died of a needless hemorrhage after a miscarriage.Report
There are two factors working against our side. One is the apolitical Ariana Grande voter that just doesn’t like paying attention to politics that much because it is so unpleasant. The other problem is the Secret Disney Liberal, and the few Secret Disney Further Leftists, who sees every problem as an educational one and believes that we merely need to explain things in the proper way to people and all the hate and false consciousness will melt away. They cant really grok that tens of millions of Americans would recoil in horror at their idea of what a good society looks like.Report
I confess to being surprised how many people willingly and knowingly support naked and open authoritarianism, and how many people are willing to look away and bend the knee just to avoid troube.
We read about the Greatest Generation and the street battles against the American Bund and the British Union of Fascists and it never occurred to people of our time that we are going to have to fight the same battles all over again.Report
I agree with ACB’s concurrence. They got the fundamental Political Theory correct; but were too expansive in III-C. – e.g. if prosecuting for a non-core crime, aspects of core powers can and should be used as evidence of the crime since the ‘shielded’ powers may be relevant for proving the non-core crime. The bribery example is fit for purpose. Ultimately though, abuse of legitimate authority by the Executive is limited by the other two branches of Govt, not the courts.
In this particular instance, I sympathize the the consequentialists simply seeking Trump’s conviction… III-C may burden the case; though I don’t think it kills it, nor, clearly does the court.
Thus, I don’t think this is the sky is falling moment people imply… basically sending the case back to the lower courts to ascertain the facts of the case(s) specific to his work with 3rd parties on the false electors — the ones who all pled guilty in GA — and to ascertain the facts as to whether a plausible case can be made as to whether his actions with Governor Kemp fall outside the outer reaches of his presidential powers. I’d say that’s a makeable case. As I note above, I think III-C. is too broad and that ACB gets it more right, especially with regards interlocutory relief. But I don’t think the court provided special protection to Trump for much of what he can and should be prosecuted for.
The fact that they didn’t simply rule on where exactly to draw the lines absent the finding of facts by the lower court strikes me as unsatisfying, but as I understand it (and as they state) it’s right and appropriate for the lower courts to do that first. Therefore, it’s likely that whatever they find will also be reviewed and likely used to then build a test for use in the future. If this was part of an election year plan (I hope not) then that part of the plan is not going to happen in time it would seem. I don’t think that influenced SCOTUS as Roberts is driving the bus to his usual conclusion: do your jobs.
If the Roberts court will be known for anything in the future it will be his asking, nay, begging for every other part of government to just do their jobs.Report
I’m kinda seesawing on that. I think that the description of an official act might be part of the context, but describing it as evidence of a crime is actually a different question — like, to use the bribery example, there could be any number of reasons why the President decided to administratively overrule an FDA decision to ban Ozempic, so it’s up to the prosecution to show that he did it because Novo Nordisk gave him a sack of cash rather than just saying “well why else would he do something like that, hmmmm?”Report
Yes, that is the problem about making the scope much much too wide: The actual danger of the presidency is not that he commits crimes in random ways, we assume the president is not mugging people at the 7/11.
The actual danger of the presidency is that he uses his official powers for illegal means. And without motive, there is absolutely no way to distinguish this…in fact, it appear that the court doesn’t even think it is _possible_ for the president to use the pardon power illegally, for example. Or to talk to members of his cabinet, including threatening them with firing if they do not commit crimes for him. You can’t even use that as evidence of a motive in something else.
They’ve basically put ‘any use of presidential power’ out of reach, and it’s worth reminding people that the only reason the criming president tends not to use Presidential powers to crime is that _they generally are public_ and there was, previously, a risk of prosecution.
Like, the reason that Nixon used hired burglars instead of the FBI to raid the DNC officers in the Watergate hotel was that using the FBI could be traced back to him. Bet he feels stupid now, he could have just openly ordered the FBI to do it, and that’s apparently not something he can be prosecuted for, because directing the FBI is a presidential power.
In fact, it’s had to see how United States v. Nixon could have possible been decided correctly at this point.Report
there could be any number of reasons why the President decided to administratively overrule an FDA decision to ban Ozempic, so it’s up to the prosecution to show that he did it because Novo Nordisk gave him a sack of cash rather than just saying “well why else would he do something like that, hmmmm?”
Well, yes. That’s been the law for centuries — proof beyond a reasonable doubt and all that.
Congratulations on your grasp of the obvious.Report