SCOTUS Opinions on Trump Immunity, Corner Post, and Netchoice: Read Them For Yourself

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52 Responses

  1. Greg In Ak
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    says:

    I just checked. I’ts 824am local time and Biden has not Officially drone stirked or arrested tfg. WTF man? Get with it.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak
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      says:

      Obama already established that you could drone American citizens back in 2011. That’s something we established that presidents could do more than a decade ago.Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird
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        says:

        If that was the same as this then there wouldn’t be a case in front of the Supreme’s. Even taking what Obama did, this extends it a million times farther.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak
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          says:

          I kinda wish that we had established that it was wrong to drone strike American Citizens back then, though.

          That would have been nice.

          Oh, well. At least we’ve established that Biden can do it.

          And, I suppose, whomever is president after Biden can do it too.Report

          • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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            says:

            Hey, at least we’ve established that the debt ceiling never matters again.

            The president can just order the Treasury to keep paying everyone. We don’t have to have discussions over the 14th, or talk about minting platinum coins, or anything.

            In fact, the president can order the Treasury to issue checks however he wants. If the Republicans cut social Security, who cares? He can just have them keep issuing checks in the old amounts.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
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              says:

              I think that doing that might still be illegal and the courts can still put a stay on it, but whether the president can be prosecuted for it has been settled.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                How does SCOTUS enforce a stay?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                They don’t.

                Andrew Jackson covered this already.

                There’s also a long history of folks complaining about “Judicial Supremacy” in Marbury vs Madison.

                It might be time to visit some of those and see if the positions you were arguing against five minutes ago much have utility five minutes from now.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                It might be time to visit some of those and see if the positions you were arguing against five minutes ago much have utility five minutes from now.

                …who are you talking to here and what could you conceivable mean?

                You understand we are proposing these things _sarcastically_, right? We do not actually think it’s a good idea they are now, apparently, fine to do. The president should not, in fact, be able to order Treasury to write a check to anyone in any amount they want.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                Oh, well, if you’re not arguing it seriously, I won’t tell you to stop.

                Please don’t get irritated if I ask “is this a real position you’re holding?”, though.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                It’s a ‘real position I’m holding’, in the sense I’m pointing out the absurdity of what the Supreme Court has decided.

                Do I think we should do it? No. I’m just pointing out absurd inconsidencies of the right.

                Hey, it sure was weird that apparently states could refuse to accept Medicaid expansion. Right? That feels really weird now, right? Maybe we should have just threatened to throw state governments in prison until they accept it?

                It is honestly astonishing how utterly unprincipled the ‘conservatives’ on the court are.

                If I was president, I wouldn’t screw around with the debt limit, I’d order, in one month, the Supreme Court building barred permanently and tell the FBI to arrest any meeting of two or more members. (And not to worry, I’d preemptively pardon the the FBI.)

                Oh, do they suddenly think that’s not how the US should work? Well, it’s better than my _previous_ thing I would have done if president, which was to announce I was going to drone strike them all a month later.

                I have something I say all the time: The only way to get the government to actually fix problems is make those problems impact rich people.

                Well, the only way to get the Supreme Court to recognize extremely abusive government that denies people their rights, and that is to aim that straight at them.Report

  2. Michael Cain
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    says:

    The Court seems to have made a lot of work for itself, from extending the time allowed to claim damage from a rule, to requiring the courts exercise their own judgement on how to interpret regulatory statute, to requiring jury trials in order to impose regulatory civil penalties.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Michael Cain
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      says:

      What they want – or so it appears – is to create a world where there is so much potential litigation that only those opposing regulation will take it up. They also seem to have opened a lot of cans of worms to allow district courts to create reasons to dismiss.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        Sadly, there are other narratives still allowed to exist on social media. Here’s Spike Cohen, the Libertarian Party’s VP nominee for 2020:

        For those who don’t understand what Chevron Deference is, and why SCOTUS ended it, here’s the long and short of it:

        A family fishing company, Loper Bright Enterprises, was being driven out of business, because they couldn’t afford the $700 per day they were being charged by the National Marine Fisheries Service to monitor their company.

        The thing is, federal law doesn’t authorize NMFS to charge businesses for this. They just decided to start doing it in 2013.

        Why did they think they could away with just charging people without any legal authorization?

        Because in 1984, in the Chevron decision, the Supreme Court decided that regulatory agencies were the “experts” in their field, and the courts should just defer to their “interpretation” of the law.

        So for the past 40 years, federal agencies have been able to “interpret” laws to mean whatever they want, and the courts had to just go with it.

        It was called Chevron Deference, and it put bureaucrats in charge of the country.

        It’s how the OHSA was able to decide that everyone who worked for a large company had to get the jab, or be fired.

        No law gave them that authority, they just made it up.

        It’s how the ATF was able to decide a piece of plastic was a “machine gun”.

        It’s how the NCRS was able to decide that a small puddle was a “protected wetlands”.

        It’s how out-of-control agencies have been able to create rules out of thin air, and force you to comply, and the courts had to simply defer to them, because they were the “experts”.

        Imagine if your local police could just arrest you, for any reason, and no judge or jury was allowed to determine if you’d actually committed a crime or not. Just off to jail you go.

        That’s what Chevron Deference was.

        It was not only blatantly unconstitutional, it caused immeasurable harm to everyone.

        Thankfully, it’s now gone.

        We haven’t even begun to feel the effects of this decision in the courts. It will be used, for years to come, to roll back federal agencies, and we’ll all be better of for it.

        And that’s why politicians and corporate media are freaking out about it.

        Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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          says:

          All the people worried about Chevron being struck down don’t need to worry, the president can now just order OSHA to fine companies _regardless_ of the law. Or even arrest them!

          Sure, they might eventually win in court, but then what are they going to do? The president will just order Treasury not to pay them off.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
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            says:

            Will folks be able to appeal to the judiciary under this paradigm or not?

            Will they have access to, for example, a jury trial?

            Because I like the idea of people being able to appeal to the judiciary (and, for that matter, jury trials).Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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              says:

              Will folks be able to appeal to the judiciary under this paradigm or not?

              Sure. I don’t know what’s it’s going to _do_ when the president can just order the executive branch to ignore the courts without, apparently, any legal repercussions, but, sure, they can appeal all the want.

              The court will award them damages and tell the executive to stop, and the executive will not stop and not pay those damages.

              I guess eventually we’ll have to start creating crimes for people who are literally trying to just do their jobs, say ‘Yes, the President, your boss, told you do to X, but that thing is not what is lawful, you have to actually do Y, or you yourself will be charged with a crime’.

              That seems really complicated at an individual level. Perhaps we could invent some sort of chief executive to give them orders, but make this one _actually subject_ to US law.

              This entire situation is unimaginably stupid.

              Will they have access to, for example, a jury trial?

              They already get jury trials.

              The court didn’t change anything about how any of that worked, they just said that regulatory agencies couldn’t figure out the meanings of things that Congress had written…things written with the explicit understanding that regulatory agencies _would_ figure out.

              To be clear, Spike Cohen is lying there. Laws are very explicitly written with the understanding that regulatory agencies will interpret them, and Congress has the ability to both write more specific laws to start with (and often does) and revise anything they think the regulatory agency got wrong (and often does).

              Chevron is the idea that ‘Courts should not second guess how the regulatory agencies interpret the law’…to some extent. It’s not absolute. But it does mean if the law says that wetlands are protected, and the law didn’t define wetlands, than Congress was expecting the agency it put in charge of that law to define wetlands, and the court itself shouldn’t try to come up with a definition.

              Now that isn’t true, which means anyone can challenge literally anything a regulatory agency did on the grounds that wasn’t what Congress intended.

              And, once again, I repeat, this is always something Congress can change if the regulatory agency is wrong, so the actual point is not to get regulations to match what Congress wants, (Cause what Congress wanted was for them to decide) but to allow the _courts_ to override this.

              The fanatic, insane, far right courts, specifically. They can just constantly invent ‘Congress must have meant this when they passed a law 50 years ago, they just never bothered to make it clear despite regulatory agencies doing something else’.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                It’s too bad that Spike Cohen is lying because he’s really eloquent and breaks it down in easy-to-understand terms why the ruling wasn’t as bad as people say.

                The explanation that congress should just pass a law if they want words defined differently probably needs some polish but…

                Well, it’s moot now.

                We’ll see if the narrative that this was remedying an excess holds up after a few months.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Libertarians have always hated how the regulatory system worked, because it means laws actually exist. (That were not created by lobbyists.)

                It is wildly impractical for the US Congress to figure out every single possible thing on every topic. They have no idea how nuclear reactors should be built, or what the safe levels of carbon monoxide and required ventilation are in an auto-repair shop, or exactly how the American Bison population should be managed.

                It is fundamentally impossible for them to do all that. The world is too big and complex.

                Libertarians _claim_ that reducing regulatory power and having Congress directly regulate via law will make the government smaller. They are dupes.

                In the absence of regulatory agencies, which I remind people have long processes with public comment and discussions by scientists and engineers and generally run by experts in the field(1), the people who would actually end writing all the regulations (Which would be embedded in the laws and nearly impossible to change easily) would just be lobbyists.

                1. A major problem, of course, is that experts in the field are often in a revolving door with the industry, leading to regulatory capture…but removing _any_ sort of expertise and required neutrality by essentially handing the regulatory process over _directly_ to the people being regulated, so they can just provide a bunch of misinformation (and large wads of cash) to Congress is not a solution! There is no better example of ‘regulatory capture’ than the US Congress.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                “Libertarians have always hated how the regulatory system worked, because it means laws actually exist.”

                (regulations aren’t laws)

                “It is fundamentally impossible for them to do all that. The world is too big and complex.”

                I recognize that you are just a uwu smol bean but there are in fact people whose brains can handle more than one thought at a time.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck
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                says:

                I recognize that you are just a uwu smol bean but there are in fact people whose brains can handle more than one thought at a time.

                Marjorie Taylor Greene is a member of Congress.Report

              • Philip H in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                I guess eventually we’ll have to start creating crimes for people who are literally trying to just do their jobs, say ‘Yes, the President, your boss, told you do to X, but that thing is not what is lawful, you have to actually do Y, or you yourself will be charged with a crime’.

                This is essentially the heart of the Classified Documents case in Florida – where as a career civil servant I’d already be serving decades of jail time for what TFG did.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                Yeah,, this actually makes things pretty surreal: The person giving the orders cannot be charged with crimes, not even conspiracy, for giving the orders, but everyone he gives orders to can be.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
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          says:

          Considering that the National Marine Fisheries Service is part of my agency, I actually do know a lot about the case. And about how we got here. Like NMFS didn’t just decide to do this in 2013. There’s’ statutory requirements for observers.

          50 CFR § 665.808 – Conditions for at-sea observer coverage.

          50 CFR § 660.316 – Open access fishery—observer requirements.

          And someone has to pay those observers. I bet if you went back through the NMFS budgets up to and through 2013 you’d find out whether Congress appropriated funds to do this.

          But never mind the Executives Article II responsabilities.Report

    • Burt Likko in reply to Michael Cain
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      says:

      IOETRW conservatives opposed kritocracy.Report

  3. Slade the Leveller
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    says:

    I find it kind of bizarre that the Supreme Court thinks it might be OK for the president to break the law when he might not have the time to see if what he’s doing is actually legal. Who else gets that kind of leeway?

    OK, maybe cops. The Court has already made it quite clear they’re above the law.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
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      says:

      From the only political mind worth following on Twitter:

      Report

      • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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        says:

        I don’t understand how ‘immune from civil damages for official acts that do not otherwise violate the law’ could possibly be extended to ‘immune from criminal prosecution for official acts that do violate the law’.

        Whether or not something violates the law or not seems pretty important in *checks notes* criminal law.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
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          says:

          I think that this is one of those legal things where you can’t go into this presuming that the law was violated.

          That has to be proven first.

          But I am not a lawyer.Report

          • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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            says:

            It’s a pretty well-established principle that, if someone in the government officially does something that harms you, the entity you should be suing is the _the government_, not the person who made the decision or who carried it out.

            And criminal violations of the law are one of the exceptions to that. I think maybe the only exception. And yes, it does require proving criminality…but you can do that as part of the lawsuit.

            I don’t know exactly under what logic the courts got there for the president, but it’s not some crazy idea.

            The crazy idea is that this can somehow be ‘extended’ into immunity for criminal acts. Official acts that are _crimes_ are literally supposed to be the main thing you don’t have immunity for!Report

            • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
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              says:

              Dude, have you looked at “Qualified Immunity” and what it does *IN PRACTICE*?

              I mean, seriously. And that’s *QUALIFIED*.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                No, qualified immunity is _exactly_ what I am talking about, because qualified immunity only applies to civil actions.

                It doesn’t apply to actual criminal charges.

                Police get away with not having criminal charges because DAs simply do not charge them, and even if they do, juries let them get away with anything.

                Civil right lawsuits _would_ be a important counter to that, that is exactly how all pushback against police brutality has happened, except qualified immunity means they cannot happen.

                The actual problem with qualified immunity is not the immunity for acts done officially, which almost all government employees have.

                The problem is that there are supposed to be exceptions for this immunity for ‘if you deliberately violate the civil rights of other people’ , at which point you _can_ be sued…but the courts have added the nonsense of ‘And it must already be decided that this exact detailed thing violates civil rights’ instead of just ‘any reasonable person can see this violates civil rights by using basic knowledge of civil rights and basic logic’.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                Dude, I am 100% with you. We ought to have recourse to stuff like “going to the courts when government entities have wronged you” and “have a jury trial” and stuff like that.

                I wish that the SCotUS would recognize such rights!

                Instead, they let the government literally get away with murder.

                It sucks. I wish that there were a party that would nominate justices that would argue for stuff like “no, you can go to the courts for redress of this stuff” or “hey, you can get a jury trial”.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Yeah.

                And here’s a good Twitter thread that sort of puts that decision in context with qualified immunity:

                https://x.com/equalityAlec/status/1808137445923319911?t=z8rine46H1FjdlsN8QiWCw&s=19Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
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                My favorite tweet so far:

                Unlike the Trump presidential immunity, immunity for judges, prosecutors, and police is not even ostensibly grounded in the Constitution. This is important, because the Court has explained that Congress can remove this immunity *at any time.* And states don’t have to have it.

                And then:

                To see this in action, take a look at judicial and prosecutorial immunity. The Court granted immunity in part because it said letting people sue prosecutors and judges when they break the law and destroy lives isn’t that important because officials could be prosecuted criminally.

                But who decides who to prosecute? The very same people and institutions. Hence crimes by prosecutors and judges are almost entirely ignored. In my career, I’ve seen thousands of felonies committed by DAs and judges with no prosecution. A sham, as I explain in above article.

                I wish that Congress would do its job.

                Colorado has done something, at least:

                At least two police officers have been convicted of failing to intervene in another officer’s excessive use of force, which was a crime created under SB20-217
                Colorado Attorney General Phil Weiser has used new powers granted to his office to investigate the Aurora Police Department’s patterns and practices and require the agency to make reforms
                The Colorado Peace Officer Standards and Training Board created a database of all officers in the state who have lied, been de-certified, been the subject of a criminal investigation or fired for cause
                All agencies completed training on new, stricter use-of-force laws

                Is it perfect?
                No.
                Is it better than nothing?
                Yes.Report

      • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
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        says:

        What was the point of taking up the case then?Report

  4. DavidTC
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    says:

    What sort of insane nonsense is this? The president cannot be charged for official acts?

    Committing crimes via his office is literally one of the most important things we have to worry about the president doing!

    I’m just glancing at this decision now, I admit I haven’t fully looked at it, but it seems to me they are using the justification of stuff like ‘the president does not have to respond to subpoenas’ to justify that, ignoring that there’s a large difference between ‘Powers the president has while president because we cannot afford a distracted president and also he controls the executive branch so that gets into weird conflict of interest’ and ‘powers that magically immunize him from any sort of prosecution later on even after he has left office’.

    Same with the idea that the president has immunity from _liability_, which is just…how the government works, government officials generally cannot be personally sued for harm. If someone were to operate in an official fashion, you have to sue them in the capability as a government official, not a private citizen.

    But you know where we don’t apply that? Actual CRIMES.

    In fact, we make crimes committed ‘under the color of law’ even worse crimes! Now, we haven’t ever applied that exact law, which mostly applies to the police, to the president, because…well, we haven’t needed to, and it’s possibly that law doesn’t exactly fit despite the President theoretically being in charge of law enforcement.

    But my point is that, conceptually, we treat people who have a lot governmental power over others committing crimes, using their official powers, as a _worse_ crime, not ‘not a crime’. Or, at least, our _laws_ do.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC
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      says:

      It’s worth a reminder that the ‘official act’ we are discussing is ‘Order the Justice Department to lie about voting fraud as part of a conspiracy to convince Republican members of Congress to overturn the election and rioters to join in to help’.

      Ordering the Justice Department to say lies about crimes that people have committed is _not_ a presidential power of any sort, it’s not some power we want the president to have that might _sometimes_ be used in a criminal manner, like asking them to investigate someone specific for political reasons, or selling pardons.

      No, this was specifically ‘Justice Department, create some lies for me’, a thing that a president shouldn’t be doing even when he’s _not_ doing it as part of a conspiracy to commit a coup!Report

  5. Pinky
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    says:

    I’m kind of surprised which members of the Court concurred / dissented on Trump v US.Report

  6. Chip Daniels
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    says:

    It’s just another data point demonstrating that the entire Republican Party has broken into full scale opposition to democracy and the rule of law, unfettered by any need to play coy or hide behind lofty sounding principles.

    They want a dictator, and they may well get it.Report

    • Damon in reply to Chip Daniels
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      says:

      “A Republic, If You Can Keep It”

      Few have wanted to for a long time…..I’m looking at both sides of the isle.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels
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      says:

      The Supreme Court outlined how a Republican President can rule as military dictator and the Democratic Party has cooties people are either refusing to take this seriously or going on about Obama’s drone strike.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq
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        says:

        I do think there is a terrible complacency among much of the Americna public.
        Not the hard core MAGAs, I think they know exactly what they want.

        But the apolitical Ariana Grande voter who may need to actually wake up one day and discover that their kid is being taught Christian Nationalism, or that their gay brother was arrested for sodomy, or that their sister died of a needless hemorrhage after a miscarriage.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels
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          says:

          There are two factors working against our side. One is the apolitical Ariana Grande voter that just doesn’t like paying attention to politics that much because it is so unpleasant. The other problem is the Secret Disney Liberal, and the few Secret Disney Further Leftists, who sees every problem as an educational one and believes that we merely need to explain things in the proper way to people and all the hate and false consciousness will melt away. They cant really grok that tens of millions of Americans would recoil in horror at their idea of what a good society looks like.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq
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            says:

            I confess to being surprised how many people willingly and knowingly support naked and open authoritarianism, and how many people are willing to look away and bend the knee just to avoid troube.

            We read about the Greatest Generation and the street battles against the American Bund and the British Union of Fascists and it never occurred to people of our time that we are going to have to fight the same battles all over again.Report

  7. Marchmaine
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    says:

    I agree with ACB’s concurrence. They got the fundamental Political Theory correct; but were too expansive in III-C. – e.g. if prosecuting for a non-core crime, aspects of core powers can and should be used as evidence of the crime since the ‘shielded’ powers may be relevant for proving the non-core crime. The bribery example is fit for purpose. Ultimately though, abuse of legitimate authority by the Executive is limited by the other two branches of Govt, not the courts.

    In this particular instance, I sympathize the the consequentialists simply seeking Trump’s conviction… III-C may burden the case; though I don’t think it kills it, nor, clearly does the court.

    Thus, I don’t think this is the sky is falling moment people imply… basically sending the case back to the lower courts to ascertain the facts of the case(s) specific to his work with 3rd parties on the false electors — the ones who all pled guilty in GA — and to ascertain the facts as to whether a plausible case can be made as to whether his actions with Governor Kemp fall outside the outer reaches of his presidential powers. I’d say that’s a makeable case. As I note above, I think III-C. is too broad and that ACB gets it more right, especially with regards interlocutory relief. But I don’t think the court provided special protection to Trump for much of what he can and should be prosecuted for.

    The fact that they didn’t simply rule on where exactly to draw the lines absent the finding of facts by the lower court strikes me as unsatisfying, but as I understand it (and as they state) it’s right and appropriate for the lower courts to do that first. Therefore, it’s likely that whatever they find will also be reviewed and likely used to then build a test for use in the future. If this was part of an election year plan (I hope not) then that part of the plan is not going to happen in time it would seem. I don’t think that influenced SCOTUS as Roberts is driving the bus to his usual conclusion: do your jobs.

    If the Roberts court will be known for anything in the future it will be his asking, nay, begging for every other part of government to just do their jobs.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Marchmaine
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      says:

      I’m kinda seesawing on that. I think that the description of an official act might be part of the context, but describing it as evidence of a crime is actually a different question — like, to use the bribery example, there could be any number of reasons why the President decided to administratively overrule an FDA decision to ban Ozempic, so it’s up to the prosecution to show that he did it because Novo Nordisk gave him a sack of cash rather than just saying “well why else would he do something like that, hmmmm?”Report

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