Class in 21st Century America

Christopher Carr

Christopher Carr does stuff and writes about stuff.

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  1. Damon
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    “Lower middle class –….. Many work low-level jobs in the service economy, or they are, dare I say, teachers.”

    I’d think the range is greater than one bracket. I know for a fact that a certain public school teacher is middle class making over 80K in the mid AtlanticReport

  2. Damon
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    I’d say “comfortable”. The amount of pay I’m aware of is @ 5 years, so it’s likely she’s making more now. This individual has a rowhouse in the city, travels at least once a year to visit family overseas, and is frequently “out and about” in various city locations doing stuff. She does not have a car, but really doesn’t need one. She also is rather “thrifty”, and a smart shopper.Report

  3. LeeEsq
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    On the other blog, we had a post about taxing the affluent more on Sunday. The affluent are basically the upper middle class that earns between 150K to 500K a year. A commentator on the blog made the smart observation is that many of the affluent see themselves as just ordinary middle class people. They have more and nicer stuff than the people earning between 50K to 100K a year but basically live the same lifestyle. They live in relatively ordinary but nice houses in relatively ordinary but nice neighborhoods, do their own chores with at best having a cleaning person come in once a week, drive good but not really expensive cars, etc. Not so long ago, the lifestyle differences between the upper middle class and the ordinary middle class were much bigger. Having a live in servant or a day servant that was in your home everyday was not unusual. I grew up in a very affluent suburb of NYC and only one family had a live in servant when in the earlier part of the 20th century, it would be every family with one. So the upper middle class do not see themselves as that different from the ordinary middle class.

    The class marker system also explains why barristas with advanced degrees are seen as middle class rather than working class. The belief is the graduate degree basically cancels any working class element despite the working class job and salary. If attractive, there is also a belief that they can land themselves an upper middle class partner in one of their customers despite that being not that frequent an occurence.

    The upper middle class is also an increasingly important part of the Democratic Party. They aren’t the majority of votes but they exist in large number in key suburban districts and provide a lot of donations and time. Many politicians are recruited from their ranks. They are also good at couching the reasons not to tax them more in the language of social justice. So the Democratic Party is really reluctant to tax them.Report

    • North in reply to LeeEsq
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      Your last point is a good one and also a problematic one. This is because just trying to tax the very wealthy, the Upper Class in Chris’ taxonomy, doesn’t raise enough money for even our current spending levels let along the various things left wingers have ambitions to do. The serious money would lie in taxing the upper middle class more which would enrage them significantly and, since both the Dems movers and shakers and the entire journalistic class hails from around this level, would be politically very dangerous.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to North
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        European countries fund the welfare state by taxing the upper and even ordinary middle classes a lot higher than America does. The politics are different there though.Report

        • InMD in reply to LeeEsq
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          I commented on another post we had where this issue came up, that neither party in the US currently offers the upper middle class upside on the family ledger. The kinds of tax cuts on offer from the GOP simply don’t amount to anything close to meaningful annual savings to be worthwhile. However given that this class also tends to be decently insured for healthcare, able to afford some form of childcare, be it a pricey center, or a more cut rate in home, there is also no real net benefit to them for being taxed to then get ‘free’ subsidized versions of these and other services. Which isn’t to say they don’t benefit from certain load bearing columns of the welfare state we do have (no one needs their parents moving in because their social security ran out) but the path we are on post WW2 puts them passed the point of diminishing returns on the generalized, universal support you see in many other advanced democracies.

          I think a lot of our political debates tiptoe around this fact, which in turn inflates the importance of cultural issues over material ones.Report

          • LeeEsq in reply to InMD
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            I think this is correct. The European welfare states and other developed democracy welfare states was created at just the right time to get true universal support. People wanted something else after the horrors of the mid-20th century and the sheer amount of destruction made life worse for basically everybody for several years afterwards. America got through the war materially unscathed and booming economically. Life was basically so good, that the anti-welfare forces had strong arguments against them or could at least resist it without being punished too badly. This means that America gets jerry-rigged stuff.Report

          • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD
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            The UMC class seems to swing Democratic largely based on social issues. Basically, they think the GOP is nuts and getting a lot more nuts. The UMC here are the dreaded “cringe” winemoms with “In this house” signs on their front lawns. The GOP offers them nothing economically or socially. On the other hand, the Democratic Party does offer them a lot or tries too but it is often ignored by dirtbag left dudes because women cooties or something.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw
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              The power of social issues is that it is very intimate and personal, while economic concerns are in most cases a bit more abstract.
              We talk a lot about how the Money faction uses social issues to rile up the rubes but what gets less discussed is how this works in the other direction.

              A lesbian small business owner might lean libertarian, but the viral videos of MAGA moms screaming about groomers at school board meetings is powerful in a way that “capital gains tax cut” just isn’t.
              And some upper middle class parent of a trans kid watching Republicans promise to send state agents to take their kid away cuts close more than somebody wanking about DEI at the office.

              And of course, any woman of reproductive age hearing the stories through the mommy blogs of women bleeding out in a parking lot isn’t going to be swayed by promises to deport the guy who mows the lawn.

              The Republicans forgot the first rule of authoritarianism- Only go after the powerless and despised minorities first, and the others only after you have locked in your power.Report

              • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels
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                I really hate the trope of the Money faction using social issues to rile up the rubes. Most of the money faction that does this are sincere believers. They aren’t riling up the rubes to prevent the Revolution (TM). They are riling up the rubes because they really believe in whatever the spout. The wealthy Germans that backed you know who really believed in the who know what ideology.Report

              • North in reply to LeeEsq
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                I’m not a historian but that just doesn’t sound right to me. My limited understanding was that the German high society thought Hitler was pretty gauche and unpleasant and simply presumed they could use him and the simpletons he enthralled to beat up the commies in the streets.

                Likewise the revealed preferences of the uber rich doesn’t suggest a bunch of social conservative folks who’re obsessed with the racial purity of the American common stock but rather some wealthy libertines who think they can use those voters to push through tax breaks and advantageous regulations for themselves and their interests.Report

              • LeeEsq in reply to North
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                I disagree. The Anti-Communist loonie billionaires really believed their license. The entire wealthy using reactionary politics to manipualte the rubes is a lie that the Further Left likes to tell themselves because it provides a reason why the rubes aren’t going for the Further Left.Report

              • North in reply to LeeEsq
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                Anti-communist? Well of course, because they believe any system where they have to pay even a dime of taxes is communism. That doesn’t give them much commonality with the Maga faction of the right though.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to North
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                I think Lee’s right.

                Like that clip I posted the other day about the Daily Wire promoting anti-woke boner pills, they may at first just seem like cold eyed grifters but I think an awful large number of them actually do buy their own rhetoric.

                Some of it is that sort of soft middling belief, where they aren’t willing to sacrifice much for the cause, but they will nod and give an Amen to those who do.

                Like, how many “Reasonable” Republicans have we seen who will indignantly say they are not MAGA, but always, always, always end up pulling the lever for them.

                Whether they are true believers or go along get along crowd followers just doesn’t matter much in the end.Report

              • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels
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                People like the trope of cynical billionaires fleecing the rubes with social reactionary thought because it suggests a Secret Disney Liberal future where we can approach the problem as an educational one. Just the right argument, political cartoon/meme, and song about healing or whatever can get people to open up their eyes and realize their true interests in the name of liberal or revolutionary utopia. If there are hundreds of millions or billions of really nuts people on the planet than the problem is entirely different.Report

              • Philip H in reply to LeeEsq
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                Certainly a number of current GOP COngresscritters seem to believe the 40 ish years of GOP hype about the threat of liberals and Democrats to the American Way Of Life (TM)Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels
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                It’s hard to run a business when people want to outlaw your existenceReport

      • Saul Degraw in reply to North
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        I go back and forth on what would get upper-middle class professionals to back away from the Democrats and consider the Republicans again and I am honestly not sure the GOP is up for the task. The GOP in most states, including many solid blue states, has decided that it would rather go full MAGA/Authoritarian over being a socially moderate/fiscally moderate party. There is room in states like Washington, Oregon, Hawaii, Massachusetts, California, New York, New Jersey, and other solidly blue states for a GOP which can be roughly described as Jacob Javits’ Republicans.

        The GOP in these states has no interest in trying to moderate and become like this. Instead, they just keep getting more and more extreme in their candidates. They might be extreme enough this year to put North Carolina, a classic red leaning swing state into play for Democrats.

        Another issue is that I don’t think our media has quite adjusted to the fact that today’s suburban parents were born in the 1970s and 80s or even the early 1990s instead of the 1940s and 50s. Basically, they grew up in much more liberal environments and times in many ways. Schumer used to have an imaginary couple he called “The Baileys” who he imagined as the people he pitched himself to. The Baileys were a forty-something couple with a house in one of the more moderate-income suburbs of Long Island. More Garden City than Roslyn or Port Washington. They worked in not glamorous but white collar industries. I think the husband was a claims adjuster for an insurance company. They shopped for clothing twice a year and watched network TV and were conservative in a small-c and cautious kind of way.

        I think the media is still stuck imaging middle-class folks as Schumer’s Baileys but the imagine is several decades out of date. We are both in our forties. The average 30 and 40 something is much more culturally sophisticated and foodism and third world coffee is found nearly everywhere in the United States. Today’s thirty and forty something also probably had more direct exposure to LBGTQ people and the culture is generally a bit more sophisticated/cosmopolitan overall.

        I find this disconnect very strange. Why does the media treat middle-aged people as being born in 1959 as opposed to 1979 or 1989?

        So LeeEsq may be correct in many ways but an LBGTQ friendly and abortion rights supporting upper-middle class fiscal moderate does not have many places to go.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw
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          DEI might be able to pull it off. (I understand it’s being rebranded to “IED”)Report

        • North in reply to Saul Degraw
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          Let’s give Jaybird his due: he’s not entirely wrong. DEI, specifically their anti-educational brands, is really off-putting to the upper middle-class professionals (and also a lot of immigrant groups- it’s absolutely toxic with Asians). The GOP under Trump isn’t going to reap those defections as is, but they’d only have to hide their crazy under a not-very-big hat to hide it to be palatable to defectors. And the size of that hat would shrink depending on how taxy-wasteful and how coddle-the-local-criminals the Dems appear to be.Report

          • Saul Degraw in reply to North
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            I think the dumbness that led to the SF School Board recall and Rufo/Desantis’ crusade are different things. A lot of Rufo’s right-wing culture warriors have found themselves elected and then recalled in purple and light blue states for going to far. Rufo thinks it is woke to have Heather has Two Mommies in the library.

            I don’t think the GOP’s bD faith concern troll over racism and antiisemitism will be successful.

            JB thinks Bari Weiss’ “free press” is a reputable information source. I don’t have to hand it to him.Report

            • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw
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              There are plenty of Democratic voters who adore Bari Weiss and believe she is a brave truth teller. They probably outnumber the ones who do not.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to LeeEsq
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                I would venture that other than the extremely on-line, hardly anybody gives a s**t about Bari Weiss one way or the other. And in the course of a long life among all sorts of people, I have met very few who adore brave truth tellers as a general proposition. When X says “I admire Y because Y speaks his/her mind,” X almost always means: “I admire Y because Y speaks MY mind.”Report

              • LeeEsq in reply to CJColucci
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                Bari Weiss is popular among the segment of the Democratic Party that also likes Ted Talks, NPR and the NYT. She earns like 800K a year. Somebody has to take her seriously for her to earn this money. The very online liberals that still post on the few remaining blogs can’t stand her and see her as grift. Your last sentence is completely correct.Report

              • Saul Degraw in reply to LeeEsq
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                She is read by guys like Jaybird who are not ready to fully identify as conservative but are scared of the kids these days. She provides assurance to insecure white guys and tells them “No, no, it is not you who are wring. It is the kids.”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw
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                (“Scared of the kids”? I’m mostly thinking that they’re unlikely to pass a drug test. As for “conservative”, I’m the guy who keeps asking “what have ‘conservatives’ actually conserved?”)Report

              • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw
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                I think her appeal is more widespread than that.Report

            • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw
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              Rufo and DeSantis believe they are reacting to the dumbness of the SF School Board antics but are totally misreading the room because they assume normies will like what the Evangelicals want. This is wrong. Normies might not like the wilder edges of DEI but plenty of them have no problem with Heather has Two Mommies either. The biggest stumbling bloc to the UMC going back to the Republicans is Republicans adherence to the Evangelical social beliefs.Report

            • North in reply to Saul Degraw
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              Oh it’s older than Rufo. The socialcons from Ross Douthat on down have been pointing at the wild haired far-left, claiming “these people represent everyone on the left” and assuming that if people reject that then they, by some kind of underpants gnome theory, will become socialcons. They’ve been doing it for at least halfway through the SSM debate… so mid aughts at least?Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Saul Degraw
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          The grand coalitions that are Team Blue and Team Red are changing sub-groups.

          We may be in the process of seeing Red dump the “Money” sub-group and going with MAGA.

          That might make the “pro-growth” voters independent, it might mean Blue picks us up. Basically we’ll see what happens after Biden and Trump leave the stage.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
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            I don’t see any daylight between the Money faction and MAGA.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
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              They’re not kicked out yet.

              MAGA is going to get their guy, he’s almost certainly going to go down in flames because he’s toxic to everyone who isn’t MAGA.

              So… what happens after that? Same old Team Red? New Red super focused on cultural crap and economic populism (insanity)? Something else?

              Does MAGA stays together after Trump? After Trump goes to prison?

              We’re over the edge of the universe here.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw
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          A former OTier once posted a meme on Facebook that had a Goth teen and a 30 something guy at a grill with the point being that Millennials were now the 30 something white guy at the grill and Zoomers were not Millennials. A lot of people seem to have a very hard time updating their cultural priors. I have no idea why. You have Internet Further Leftists or even Liberals that imagine the average suburban dweller is a white couple with kids who are afraid of crime in the big city even though that stereotype is so expired it’s a public health hazard. The suburbs, especially in big metro areas, are no longer exclusively white. Many immigrants just go straight to suburbia. My guess is people are just too lazy to adjust to new facts that fast.Report

      • Brent F in reply to North
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        I take it a step further.

        Given the gap between total government receipts and expenditures in the United States, as well as current popular beliefs of what American government should do in both welfare, long term investments and diplomatic-military power, the American middle to upper middle class is quite undertaxed.

        Sticking them with the bill for the stuff they are ordering is not presently on anyone’s agenda, but it very well may be in a few years time because of the massive size of the American peace time deficit.Report

        • North in reply to Brent F
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          Well, there’s a lot of things they’re due that they don’t like. They’re the big movers behind NIMBYism too after all- not that the crazy wealthy aren’t NIMBY’s, they are, but there just aren’t numerically enough of them to twist the state-wide housing markets the way they are twisted.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to LeeEsq
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      I’m not sure I see how someone making >$250K is able to assign social justice as a reason for not increasing taxes on them. Do you have an example of such language?Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Slade the Leveller
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        The usual language emphasizes that they are merely middle class rather than affluent and 250K doesn’t go far in a major metropolitan area.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq
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          Maybe $400,000 a year is a lot in whatever flyover city you’re from but in a real city it just puts you in the middle class.

          It doesn’t change your life. You still have to go to work. You still can’t afford a bad trip to the emergency room.

          It’s just middle class but you get nicer versions of everything. You drive a Lexus instead of a Toyota.

          Now, $500,000…. *THAT* is rich.Report

          • LeeEsq in reply to Jaybird
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            That’s pretty much what I wrote in my first comment. There used to be big notable differences between the lifestyles of the upper middle class and ordinary middle class. In his book about California during the mid-20th century, Golden Dreams, the historian Kevin Starr refers to a Life magazine profile of three middle class families that was written in 1945 to illustrate the upcoming good life. There was a family that earned $50,000 a year, $10,000 a year, and $3,000 year. While all three were prosperous, there were obviously big lifestyle differences between the three. The 50K family had four cars and a live in cook, etc. The 10K family and all the latest mod cons but no servants. They were able to have a horse for their teen daughter. The 3K family had one car and only some mod cons.

            $50K is around $877K in 2024 money. $10K is about $176K and 3K is around $52K. A family making $877K, which is the upper end of affluence and lower end of wealthy, would not be able to afford four cars and a live in servant in 2024 while the life styles of the $176K and $52K families would be more similar than not even if the $176K family has more and better stuff. They wouldn’t be able to afford a horse or any help beyond a cleaning lady.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to LeeEsq
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              When I was a lad, a solid, middle-class existence was a $10,000 a year job and a $30,000 house. Think the Cleaver family. (Of course, in those days Lincoln wasn’t on the $5 bill yet because he was still President.) I still have that ratio, if not the numbers, in my bones, even though it’s hard to find good housing for three times annual income.Report

          • InMD in reply to Jaybird
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            It’s certainly a topic that is rife with absurdities to poke fun at on twitter, even by twitter standards. But I think it’s a mistake to believe that’s real life, or that all of the journos and academics spouting facsimiles of leftist politics they learned at their overpriced ivies and SLACs, but who are loathe to wrestle with how well off they are, are in fact representative.

            Most other wealthy democracies have largely eliminated this class from existence, or maybe more accurately never allowed them to come into being in nearly the numbers we have in America, by virtue of their modern welfare and administrative states being both better developed pre-war then maturing at a time of nearly universal shared hardship.

            The question is really what one thinks would happen economically if we taxed that class into the middle middle in the US. And I mean really did it like they do in Germany or France or Scandinavia, not just added a few points or closed some loopholes here and there. I’m not sure anyone knows but I can see why politicians would be very circumspect about messing with it, especially to the extent that class is an engine of larger economic growth and development. And that’s without getting into the fact that they vote.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to InMD
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              Well, part of the problem is that there is a difference between the kind of wealthy that can hide money and the kind of wealthy that can’t.

              We may be able to whittle down a number of millionaires to middle class status… but we aren’t going to touch the invisible ones.

              “Who cares? They’re invisible!”, you may say.

              And that’s a good point. Maybe the problem isn’t that they exist but that we can see them.

              Vibes, man. Vibes.Report

            • LeeEsq in reply to InMD
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              I’m not sure if your second paragraph is that accurate. The United Kingdom certainly seems to have an equivalent class occupying an equivalent percentage of the population. Same with the other Anglophone democracies. We don’t have enough information about how class works in the East Asian developed democracies to make judgment about this for them.Report

              • InMD in reply to LeeEsq
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                I’m most familiar with continental Europe, particularly the German speaking countries. There are people that would be recognizeable to Americans as occupying a kind of upper-middle class place in the ladder (Annalena Baerback is a prominent example) but unlike the US they are only a marginal constituency. Obviously there are differences and you can only go so far in these comparisons.

                My take as an outsider from the UK is that their culture has an almost uniquely acute class consciousness to it that we lack in the US but also that there is a serious polarization caused by having a single, global city that completely dominates a country otherwise in relative post industrial decline. Sort of an ‘is it class or is it London vs. everywhere else’? However I’m not sure I’m totally off on the (relative lack of) importance of the UMC even in the UK. I thought the consensus was that Labor got killed when it tried to lean too heavily on them, as opposed to the US, where Democrats can stay competitive with solid UMC support even as they shed working class voters.Report

      • Chris in reply to Slade the Leveller
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        There are people in this world who think there’s anywhere other than maybe Manhattan and some parts of the Bay area where $250k a year isn’t a fish-ton of money. Every single one of those people has either never lived in a city or is, in fact, quite rich.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Slade the Leveller
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        It is more that the Democratic Party goes out of its way to stress it will not raise taxes on people/families earning less than 400k and I have seen this number creep up during my lifetimeReport

        • Slade the Leveller in reply to Saul Degraw
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          $400K puts you somewhere in the 90th percentile of U.S. household incomes. Using that number to signify that you won’t be raising taxes seems like good electoral politics.

          That said, to the overwhelming majority of Americans that it a boatload of money. I think Jaybird hits the nail on the head with his observation above about comparing ourselves to others doing better.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
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            There’s a phenomenon where people explain that Pearl River, Mississippi has a median household income of $40k and so we should really be comparing $40k in Pearl River to a median household income of $125k in San Francisco and how they’re pretty much equal.

            But that strikes me as awfully perverse.

            Because it is very different to make $40k and $125k, even if both sets of folks only have 5% discretionary income at the end of the day.Report

  4. Saul Degraw
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    I think this is pretty good but a big issue with vague and ambiguous terms like class is that they also contain other issues like social-cultural affinities, status markers/symbols/games, etc. These cannot be ignored and has always been thus.

    As Lee notes above, this is why Barrista’s with graduate degrees can get coded as middle-class or even upper-middle class even though they may survive on 25K-30K a year. Their educational obtainment and perhaps cultural interests are considered too sophisticated to make them really working class.

    As an aside, most of the people I know were for Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren in 2020 (all are fine with Biden now). I would say the Bernie Sanders’ supporters were more likely to be my friends and associates whose educational obtainment and career-trajectories had the most divergence with some slides into genteel poverty or worse. The Elizabeth Warren fans were very economically liberal but on somewhat more solid ground economics and career wise.

    In contrast, Trump and the GOP get their main support from petit bourgeois types. This group usually does not have high levels of formal education attainment. They often make a lot of money from less than glamorous businesses which are either impossible to outsource and/or have a lot of inbuilt protection. Examples include care dealership owners (protected via regulation and people are not willing to travel far to buy a new car), owners of businesses in the building trades, paving contractors, etc. The Petit Bourgeois has traditionally been among the most reactionary members of society (Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber were beta versions of MAGA) but I suspect Trump appeals to them a lot because of his ostentatious way of living. They imagine “this is what a billionaire” should be like.

    The Petit Bourgeois Trumpist and the Upper Middle Class liberal are alien to each other and will never understand each other despite having similar levels of wealth and income. They will never understand and are often repulsed by the opposites status symbols/games/markers.Report

  5. Jaybird
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    Check out Ruby Payne’s “Framework for Understanding Poverty”.

    It completely revamped how I thought about this stuff.

    (We had a pretty good discussion about this here back in 2022, fwiw)Report

    • Burt Likko in reply to Jaybird
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      Well that may be Ruby Payne’s opinion but I think there’s a lot of overlap in a lot of these categories. Some may be closer to the mark than others and I guess we can litigate (or re-litigate) where this chart gets it kind of right and where it doesn’t. (I strongly suspect that everyone in every economic tier finds humor in sex, for instance.)

      Once upon a time I suggested that class might be discerned by the degree to which one acquires money from a) entitlements, b) work, or c) capital, and that the amount of money one acquires is a different axis than the way the money is acquired, although it’s probably the case that the cap for what one can make from entitlements is much lower than the cap for what one can make from having access to capital.

      Today’s OP seems to get at a similar idea — the more money you have at your disposal, the more you’re steered towards acquiring an ever larger endowment of capital; the more money you need for survival, the less you will be able to avail yourself of any of the incentives baked into the tax code.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Burt Likko
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        I suppose that one thing that the internet has done is that it has widened everybody’s bubble. We all have access to Poverty circles now. We all have access to Middle Class circles.

        I don’t know that we get true glimpses into Wealth on a regular basis, but they show up from time to time. Everybody, Everywhere. All at once.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird
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          You occasionally see it in the Reddit posts about “I told my partner that we couldn’t afford to eat dinner so we’d have to switch to dog food, and they went out the next day and bought a fourth guitar and an original Lichtenstein, and when I got mad they said that they never got to have anything fun for themselves because I was always being so picky and whiney about money, AITA”

          Like, that latter is a Wealth-class attitude.

          I’d also argue that the entire concept of “the Sharing Economy” is a Wealth-class attitude (to wit: there’s plenty of money around, just borrow some from another person who has it, pay them back when/if you can with no moral dimension implied in failing to do so).Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Burt Likko
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        Will you accept service if I re-litigate?Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Jaybird
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      This chart really doesn’t make sense for 21st century America because it doesn’t make any attempt to distinguish because of geography, politics, source of wealth, etc. A Techie multimillionaire in Silicon Valley doesn’t really meet the criteria of the Wealthy column in social manners and mores, which seems aimed more at old money types. A car dealer in Indiana and a female surgeon in Westchester, NY are going to have very different cultural expressions despite being both in the Middle class column.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq
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        Old money vs. New money. That’s for dang sure. I remember a joke that Schilling used to tell about some young socialite marrying a surgeon at a major hospital. “A tradesman?”, her mother asked.

        And you’re absolutely right about the facebook guys who grew up upper middle and found themselves, suddenly, with 8 or 9 or 10 figures. They definitely aren’t “wealth”.

        Neither is Trump, for that matter.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Jaybird
          Ignored
          says:

          A lot of culture is going to be very geographically dependent. Around a major metropolitan city with a lot high culture and education, it used to be required for middle class people to show at least some interest in that, especially if they were in the professional middle classes. I think this probably changed now but my parents definitely thought that trips to museums and Young People’s Concerts at Lincoln Center were required and worthy things to do with kids. Other middle or even upper middle class people, probably not so much because said things did not exist where they live or because the culture was more jockish or both.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird
          Ignored
          says:

          “I remember a joke that Schilling used to tell about some young socialite marrying a surgeon at a major hospital. “A tradesman?”, her mother asked.”

          That’s less of a joke than you might imagine, given that surgeons in America are far more like tradesmen (plumbers, mechanics, masons) than they are like a white-collar banker or executive. They own their own practices rather than being employees, they regulate their own industry and are mostly judged by each other, and they are the primary authority in their clients’ treatment, and while their work involves a great deal of knowledge it doesn’t require high-intellect activities like operational analysis or strategic planning.Report

          • KenB in reply to DensityDuck
            Ignored
            says:

            See Isaac Asimov’s take here.Report

            • KenB in reply to KenB
              Ignored
              says:

              Hah, completely unrelated, but re-reading some of those jokes, this one reminds me of some of the foibles of our current “fact-checkers”:

              Moskowitz met his business rival, Levinson, at the airport and asked him, with an elaborate pretense of casualness, “And where do you happen to be going, Levinson?”

              Levinson, just as casual, responded, “Chicago.”

              “Aha,” said Moskowitz, shaking his finger triumphantly. “Now I’ve caught you in a flat-footed lie. You tell me Chicago because you want me to think you’re going to St. Louis, but I talked to your partner only this morning and I happen to know you *are* going to Chicago, you liar!”Report

  6. Chris
    Ignored
    says:

    opposed to being universal (or Marxist), class is specific to some place and era

    In Twitter speak, “Tell me you haven’t read any Marxist literature on class, including Marx himself, without telling me you haven’t read any Marxist literature on class.”

    Y’all should do a reading group in which you actually read Marxist stuff so that you understand what you’re against. Some of you might find it actually interesting and insightful, even if you don’t go full Marxist after a few chapters of Postone.Report

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