It Was My Understanding There Would Be No Algebra 2
It was not like Jeannie Brown did not try. An exceptional educator that was saddled with students, particularly of the teenage male cohort, who had no interest whatsoever in studying the higher functions and particular intricacies of mathematics, especially algebra. By some machinations and academic dealings that I have no knowledge of, I took my Algebra I, Geometry, and two dropped attempts at Algebra 2 record to a high school diploma, did not ask questions, and moved on. Like most students, “when will I ever need to use this” was a frequent complaint/observation/criticism of why any teenager should care about finding x, the value of y, or how it related to z. Which made college brutal since I once again had to do math, and since I did not learn it before it was an even steeper hill.
I hated math. When was I ever going to need to use this stuff? If I ever see Archimedes in the next life I’m going to fold him like laundry on general principle.
I was wrong, of course, as all kids who utter the “when will I ever need to use this” about mathematics. While still loathing bookwork, academic math, my career path taught me to really love, appreciate, and enjoy statics, analytics, and modeling of data, all things that have new digital spins and applications based on very old mathematical principles. Even as a box kicker and stocker at Walmart after my first disastrous attempt at college went sideways, there was math in getting my work done. Turns out things like weight and balance calculations when loading aircraft and exact dimensions and detailed technical instructions when building airdrop platforms and rigging parachutes was something both math and the military demanded to keep people alive. God help you in middle management if you cannot get formulas into an Excel sheet, which I quickly learned to master so I did not have to spend any more time than absolutely necessary on it.
Math, math, more math. You cannot escape math. Math is the giant rock to your running Indiana Jones just wanting to get the idol out of the temple, and algebra is Belloq waiting to take the idol from you just when you think you have escaped the curse of Archimedes, but didn’t.
These things culminated some years ago when I was out to eat in my hometown, saw Mrs. Brown at another table, and after hugs and catching up was able to proudly and truthfully tell her that I had recently, finally, passed college level algebra for some online classes I was taking, since my prior course work and study I’d been able to dink and dunk with “Principle of Mathematics” or “Elements of Mathematics, the rather fun “Quantitative Reasoning” and “Introductory Statistics” and the ever popular “Mathematics for Liberal Arts.” That last one I took twice at two different institutions since it would not transfer as part of the academic scheme to make me take more algebra; but I saw their snare trap, dug into the course completion requirements, and adjusted accordingly.
I was 37 years old at that time of that chance encounter with the Ghosts of Mathematics past. Feeling a mix of shame and pride at the 20 years of Mrs. Brown being right, finally telling her I did do what she said I could do if I just tried a bit, and foolish me who should have believed her the first time.
The University of California system is debating the admission requirements version of “when will you need this math,” especially as it relates to the traditional breakpoint of high school Algebra 2.
At issue is whether high school students can apply to UC if they have taken a data science course in place of Algebra 2, the traditional third year of high school math schools required of all applicants. Algebra 2 is more abstract than data science, a form of applied mathematics that combines math, statistics, and other tools to provide a wide range of useful information for many professional careers. That could include predicting side effects to medication, consumer buying trends or matching couples on dating apps.
UC first approved a data science course offered by the Los Angeles Unified School District in 2013 as a substitute for Algebra 2. Other school districts followed suit, adopting data science courses that are popular among students who find mathematical theory too difficult. The expansion to data science was seen as an equity move for Black and Latino students who have excellent academic records but were being kept from four-year colleges by not having taken Algebra 2. It also was a requirement for California State University, which follows UC standards.
UC faculty found, though, that the three most popular data science courses in the state, including LAUSD’s, were too lacking in Algebra 2 or other higher math skills to qualify as a third year of college-prep math. Last week, the Board of Regents agreed to go along with the faculty findings, which means these three data science courses no longer would qualify. (It appears a few data science courses taught at specific schools will continue to be allowed.)
But the reason UC professors have given for rejecting the courses is odd: Even though students might not be planning to enter STEM fields when they begin college, many of them change their minds later. Algebra 2 is a prerequisite for those studies.
As much as I hate math as a student, I do not think UC is wrong here to be reviewing and thinking about the Algebra 2 requirement. The old complaint of “when are you going to use this math” can be productively applied here as a bit of a litmus test, a term you learn about in Chemistry, another college course I have avoided like the plague. If the requirement is only for admission but not needed for the actual chosen course path, the requirement is more gatekeeping than productive. The “they might change their minds” is rather weak sauce for an academic institution that could readily mandate a course or two of mathematics as a requirement for those changing majors to a math heavy field of study.
I do think UC is right that even in the school systems offering alternative math courses, higher math like algebra underpins so much of the technology that everyday usage of advanced mathematics – or at least the principles thereof – is probably higher than ever before. What is needed long-term here is secondary-level math courses that are designed with the modern world in mind. A non-STEM curious junior or senior in high school may very well not need Algebra 2, but designing a social media-era “Principle of Mathematics” that slides in plenty of higher-level math to explain those algorithms which increasingly dictate information and life to teens and young adults would be sensible bridge both academically and practically.
Mathematics – particularly higher level mathematics like advanced algebra, calculus, trigonometry, and such – inarguably has many applications to the modern world, perhaps more so than ever before. What needs to change and update a bit is the interpretation of who needs what math for what reason. In that there should be some flexibility, beyond just “if they can’t pass Algebra they don’t belong in college” yelling at clouds gatekeeping that helps no one. If the point is to get more students taking higher-level mathematics, the smart thing to do is to make sure there are a few more steps leading up to the haughty temple of numbers in the Groves of Academe for students to work their way up.
To be fair to the modern students, they have things to deal with Archimedes never did. Such as if it takes twenty-three selfies to get the light just using nine different filters, and the clip photos for IG taken from the video made for TikTok, what was the ratio of time spent to platform audiences reached to maximize engagement, and so forth. But Archimedes should not post that white toga until after Memorial Day unless he wants a lesson in exponential multiplication of comments and replies, or at all unless he wants to be accused of much worse.
If all that confused you, just understand to the teens and young adults pipelining into higher education right now, that kind of math is the new 2+2=4 to them.
See there, math can be practical as can be.
I’m of 2 minds here.
1. I think we can be more nuanced and fine-grained about which courses require what pre reqs.
2. the perception that those in the Humanities don’t need maths is pernicious because lack of numeracy is a real problem that translates into an inability to think quantitatively when necessary.Report
Americans seem to have a tick that math is something you are good at or not. We see it as innate for some reason.
The issue I think is a feeling of culture war onslaught where people who study, teach, and/or work in the arts & humanities feel constantly devalued because the subjects can’t be monetized as easily and the right-wing finds them subversive and just wants docile enough engineersReport
Yeah, whatever would happen to software if the programmers hadn’t taken a course on the Twilight series.Report
“I think the tech industry would be a lot better if they all were forced to read books”
“OK they’ll read Orwell and Drake and Kipling and Heinlein and Rand”
“wait no I didn’t mean THOSE books, I meant the PROPER AND CORRECT books’Report
Why do you think people would have a problem with Orwell (except, maybe, for the”pansy left” thing — but that’s how people talked back then)? Orwell, by the way, wrote an excellent essay on Kipling that should be required for anyone who reads Kipling.
As for Heinlein and Rand, sci-fi and turgid novels just don’t rate.Report
The Fountainhead was assigned in one of my architecture courses, and was one of those things that helped convert me out of my Reaganism.Report
Because he was sadistic, misogynistic, homophobic, and sometimes violent?
And before you are inclined to defend him against these accusations, please understand that I am not the source of these allegations.
I’m merely pointing out why I think people would have a problem with Orwell.
As for the claim that sci-fi and turgid novels don’t rate, let me point out that Melissa Click, the professor who famously yelled “WE NEED SOME MUSCLE OVER HERE!” taught a course on Stephenie Meyer’s Twilight series.
I *WISH* that turgid novels didn’t rate.
But here we are. They do.
Best of luck gatekeeping.Report
There are plenty of reasons for having a problem with Orwell as a person. There are plenty of reasons for having problems with lots of writers as persons. Maybe even most of them. Whether those problems do or should carry over to their books is another question, and I read DD as claiming that people would have a problem with the books rather than the persons. If I am wrong, it would not be the first time that figuring out what DD means is a fraught exercise.Report
Believe it or not, the whole “separate the art from the artist” debate, despite having been settled back in the 1970s, is *BACK*.
Yeah, I can’t believe it either.Report
As far as I remember, back farther than the 70’s, it never got “settled” and never went away. I don’t propose to enter into it here. If I misunderstood DD’s position, whatever it is, he can speak for himself.Report
And vice versa, the idea that those in STEM don’t need Humanities is pernicious because lack of an understanding of the human condition is a real problem that translates into an inability to manage people.Report
I think the STEM argument is that the humanities are less rigorous than STEM because the average STEM student can take a high level humanities class without much foundation and get a high grade while humanities students are at loss in the STEM subjects.Report
I’d appreciate it if we could hammer out what we’re talking about with regards to “Humanities”.
The implication seems to be that taking courses in the Humanities will somehow imbue some important moral foundations to the otherwise immoral human but I am unclear as to what courses would do that.
Courses in Shakespeare?
Courses in Greek History?
Courses in Art History?
Courses in Interpretive Dance?
Courses in 17th Century French Poetry?
Women’s Studies?
What’s the mechanism whereby a course in Children’s Literature will help the Chemical Engineer avoid getting hired by Exxon/Mobil and instead go into non-profit ethanol research?Report
Its not morality, its the ability to manage and lead.
Wars and kingdoms have been won or lost, and vast corporations succeed or fail on the ability of the leaders to understand the human condition and organize people to be united in a single purpose and direction.Report
Oh, is that what a handful of humanities courses provides?
You’d think that businesses would be champing at the bit to get more people with courses that talk about Winslow Homer or Margie Gillis then.Report
They should probably emulate the US military and its program of Humanities as being essential to leadership.
https://courses.westpoint.edu/static/index.htm#t=AcademicProgram.htmReport
Let’s see what West Point talks about…
Economics, Political Science, International Relations, History (Military, US/Regional, and Art), Composition, Literature, Philosophy and Ethical Reasoning, Foreign Language, Psychology, Constitutional/Military Law, Military Leadership, and Officership.
Hell, I think that if a guy came in with a Humanities Degree and said that that’s what he studied (or Gal and that’s what she studied), we’d all be impressed with Humanities degrees.
Is West Point’s curriculum representative of what the average Humanities degree looks like?
If so, man! I sure have been dismissive of Humanities degrees unfairly!Report
What does “literature” mean to you?
What does it mean to “Understand, analyze, and know how to influence human behavior”?
Or to “Analyze the history, diversity, complexity, and interaction of cultures”?
Or to ” Analyze political, legal, military, and economic influences on social systems”?
Or to “Engage in and reflect on cross cultural experiences”?
What does it mean to “Integrate the methodologies of the humanities and social sciences in decision-making”?Report
Wow, those are pretty impressive things to list off!
Can we say that they accurately represent what a person who has a Humanities degree can do?
If so, man! I sure have been dismissive of Humanities degrees unfairly!Report
Yes we can and yes you have been.Report
Really? Because it feels like a weird “motte and bailey” thing where we’re comparing “in theory” to “in practice” and you’re arguing for, like, a perfectly ideal Humanities degree when the college is more likely to graduate someone with a BS BA that has not been trained to manage and lead, let alone understand, analyze, and know how to influence human behavior.
I mean, if that’s what they were pushing out the door, I’m pretty sure that we’d all be cool with Humanities degrees.
So there seems to be a disconnect somewhere.Report
I took a look at my alma mater’s history degree requirements and found this: https://www.luc.edu/media/lucedu/history/pdfs/New%20Major%20One%20Pager.pdf
You can go as traditional or frou frou as you like. I’m sure, based on my experience, the coursework is rigorous whatever path you take. The outcome may not be as desirable, but I would think if you’re taking the frou frou path you’re looking at an academic future.
In either case, the student will learn skills like synthesis and analysis that can be applied to real world applications. I know because I majored in history at that university and never used my degree, while becoming successful in an entirely unrelated field. (Success being defined as being nearly instantly employable.)Report
If we’re defining success as “being nearly instantly employable”, isn’t that measurable enough to declare whether a STEM degree will make you more successful than a Humanities degree? (Or vice-versa, or whether it’s a wash?)Report
I’m sure there are plenty of out of work former Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. employees who might argue to the contrary.
My 2 children majored in whatever they wanted to major in. One chose marketing and one chose bio. Neither one used the piece of paper for anything beyond getting in the door of the first employer. Neither has been unemployed.
Time was people who work in your field didn’t even need a degree, and IIRC yours is in philosophy. Maybe not the case anymore but that might just be gatekeeping as happens in all fields eventually.
My point is, a humanities major might not get you in the door everywhere, but it probably should.
Edited to add: look at law schools. They take all comers and churn out lawyers.Report
“a humanities major might not get you in the door everywhere, but it probably should.”
you’re right that if you want to prove you’re part of A Certain Demographic then just about any degree will do.Report
If we’re using “instantly employable and continually employed at the same place” as the definition, I’m good with that too.Report
I mean instantly employable at almost any location.Report
Almost any?
I’d say that there are probably a *LOT* more companies out there that could hire a Humanities grad on day 1 than companies that could hire a Chemical Engineer on day 1.
Even so… I think I’d still be willing to run with that.
Though I’d point out that showing a former software engineer isn’t a counter-example to the argument.Report
Its not morality, its the ability to manage and lead.
Do you and the MBA schools who claim to teach that agree on anything?Report
I don’t know what exactly is being taught in MBA classes but over the years I have been subjected to half a dozen different “Leadership” training sessions by various companies, and almost all of them offer some variation on “You need to understand your people if you want to lead them” which is interesting only that so obvious a thing needs to be said at all.
That there is such a vast trove of literature and art devoted to how ineffective leadership can kill a corporation makes it all the more absurd when people ask the worth of humanities.Report
When I was at Bell Labs long ago, one of my bosses went off to a leadership class about once every six months. We bribed the department secretary to make us a copy of the training material they had sent to him so we had some idea of what was coming.Report
I think it’s true that you need to understand people to lead them. I also think 90% of those training things are some combination of scam, grift, and bullsh*t artistry.Report
Agreed, and this is partly because many of the CEOs who direct the corporation don’t accept that basic premise because (and this will shock no one) they themselves have no grasp of leadership.
They’ve never read Henry V or Dulce Et Decorum Est or looked at the Raft Of Medusa painting.
The idea that they themselves could possibly be like the incompetent and idiotic aristocrats of old is made invisible to them, by the very hubris and arrogance which makes the comparison apt.
And so the attitude trickles down that “leadership” is really just a flimflammery mix of bullying and emotional manipulation.Report
“The ones in the past were. And, yes, the Humanities degrees in the 1960s and 1970s failed to do this. Technically, the ones in the 1980s and 1990s failed as well. BUT THIS NEXT BATCH WILL TOTALLY WORK.”
They’ve never read Henry V or Dulce Et Decorum Est or looked at the Raft Of Medusa painting.
Get the Blu-Ray of Henry V for about $20. If you just want to hit the Saint Crispin’s Day speech:
You can read Wilfred Owen’s Dulce et Decorum Est.
(Compare and contrast the poem to Branagh’s reading of the speech!)
Check out The Raft of the Medusa and be pleased that they’ve got a hi-res version (make it your wallpaper!).
How different would your job be if your boss had experienced any of these?
I mean, instead of learning how to drink two beers with a funnel in less than 30 seconds with his frat bros in Beta Theta Phi.Report
Up until the middle of the 20th century, when very few people went to college, the humanities were considered important because you wanted the leaders to be all-rounders that could understand and do a bit of everything. After World War II, we entered into the age of the specialist and the new idea is that all rounders were no longer useful even in leadership roles. Rather people needed to specialize in something and become the best at it and rise to leadership that way. Not only did the sciences get more specialized, so did business itself. Part of this is so areas like business, law, etc. would seem more scientific than they were in practice.Report
If we’re using what Humanities were in 1940 to sell Humanities degrees in 2024, I can’t help but think that most of the people involved with that are part of a bait and switch.Report
It’s not the Shakespeare that has caused the reputation of the humanities to plummet.Report
Speaking of bait and switch…
So its not “the humanities” you are denigrating, its “the humanities as taught to these kids today”.Report
I’m not denigrating the motte, Chip.
I’m denigrating the bailey.
You may have noticed that the Humanities that you are selling are not exactly the Humanities that people got in the 70’s, 80’s, and now 90’s.
Maybe the ones that people got in the teens will work this time.
Maybe the ones in the 20’s.Report
Without even arguing the point, I’m just pointing out that this is bog standard conservatism, the “Decline and Fall” assertion.Report
Chip, you’re the one saying that people need this Humanities education so we have X, Y, and Zed.
I’m pointing out that you didn’t get X, Y, and Zed 40 years ago, you didn’t get X, Y, and Zed 30 years ago, you didn’t get X, Y, and Zed 20 years ago, and I’m not confident that you’re going to get X, Y, and Zed from the folks who got Humanities degrees 10 years ago and so your assertions that we need people to study the Humanities today because we need people who have X, Y, and Zed strikes me as blind.
Like, have you been paying attention?
You may as well ask Culinary School to give you better accountants.
I’m not engaging in “Decline and Fall” assertions. I’m pointing out THAT YOU’RE SENDING PEOPLE TO CULINARY SCHOOL AND NOT ACCOUNTING SCHOOL.Report
A pivot back to Western Civ would be invaluable. Of course we’d also need students that can read Metamorphoses without filing a complaint with the dean of gender based aggressions or whatever.Report
I am a big fan of Western Civ. We should have courses in it.Report
As Gandhi said, he was all in favor of it.Report
Your metaphor is incoherent. Algebra isn’t helping you in this argument.
If humanities study hasn’t changed, then why the reference to 1940?
And if you’re trying to say humanities aren’t and never were important or necessary, you need to do some work, and not just sneer.
My assertion is that we lost Vietnam and Afghanistan/Iraq in part because of a lack of humanities.
Argue against that, if you want.Report
Chip, I am saying that Humanities are and have been important and necessary.
I’ll repeat what I said above, again:
Report
OK, so you’re saying the most humanities graduates can’t “understand, analyze, and know how to influence human behavior”.
That’s an assertion that needs a bit of support.Report
Well, it’s like saying “they can’t cook!”
Maybe they can cook and maybe they can’t.
But it’s not their degree in the Humanities that taught them how.
Burden of proof is on you that that’s what whatever degrees they’re getting are teaching them.
I mean, if you’re also arguing that learning Chemical Engineering, Database Administration, or Software Development doesn’t teach these things.
Personally, I think that the AI guys will have more of an impact on human behavior over the next year than the folks who got degrees in Marionette Arts.
But I’d like to hear your arguments for why, no, it’s the Humanities that will be at the point of the spear when it comes to understanding, analysis, and influence.Report
Lets start with my assertion that wars like Vietnam and Afghanistan/ Iraq were lost due to a failure of understanding, analysis, and influence.
The people in charge had no flipping idea who they were fighting or what their history was and why entering into the wars was a fool’s errand before the first shot was fired.
But someone well versed in history would have known.Report
So you believe that we could have won Vietnam?
That’s kind of interesting.
If it were up to you, would you rather that Ukranians spend more time reading poems like Dulce et Decorum Est or listening to speeches like Henry’s “St. Crispin’s Day” speech?Report
Entering into the wars was a fool’s errand before the first shot was fired.Report
If it were up to you, would you rather that Ukrainians spend more time reading poems like Dulce et Decorum Est or listening to speeches like Henry’s “St. Crispin’s Day” speech?Report
The Ukrainians already know the history and culture of the people they are fighting.
Its Putin who should study Henry V and ask if the king’s cause be just.Report
So it’s not whether “people” should study the Humanities but whether this one guy should have?
From what I understand, Putin went to Saint Petersburg High School 281 and, during that era, the USSR enjoyed a higher rate of literacy and cultural study than the United States.
From Wikipedia:
Sounds like he’s better educated than someone who spends her free time reading Harry Potter and Twilight novels.Report
This is the point in the discussion where you need to prepare some sort of argument.Report
Sure. “I don’t think that a Humanities education will necessarily get Humanity where you want Humanity to go. Even assuming that a Humanities education still involves the greatest hits of DWMs.”Report
OK that’s the assertion.
Give it some support and you will get to an argument.Report
Sure. How’s this?
“The argument that a Humanities education will result in people who more or less agree with you on important conclusions on important topics is demonstrably absurd by something as simple as pointing out significant historical examples. Your argument is faulty.”
And if you want another one, pointing out that you don’t care whether the men of Ukraine read poetry, just that Putin ought to have read it and reached the same conclusions as you will be the foundation of that one.
If you want another one, that is.Report
Well its a good thing I never made such an argument.Report
Its Putin who should study Henry V and ask if the king’s cause be just.
This was your answer to whether the men of Ukraine should read one of the examples that *YOU* gave.
And I’m pointing out that… I’m pretty sure that Putin received an education in the Humanities given his leisure reading.
He merely reached different conclusions about the world than you.
Maybe we could get him to read Harry Potter and then tell him that he is acting like Voldemort.Report
Are you sure?
You think that in the Soviet Union there was a free and open discussion of the lessons from literature about the dangers of naked aggression against peaceful people?
Or is it more likely that the Communists cherry picked literature and suppressed anything that might lead a young officer to the bourgeoisie idea that mutual respect and self-determination are the foundation of world peace?
The track record of Communism in their fear and loathing of art should count as a reason why we should value the humanities.Report
You think that in the Soviet Union there was a free and open discussion of the lessons from literature about the dangers of naked aggression against peaceful people?
I’m sure there was.
That’s why they gave so much aid to North Vietnam.
Or is it more likely that the Communists cherry picked literature and suppressed anything that might lead a young officer to the bourgeoisie idea that mutual respect and self-determination are the foundation of world peace?
Cherry picking literature?
In the Humanities?Report
This sounds like all of the Miss America contestants who say their best friend is their mom.Report
Is the argument that this is obviously untrue?
Because, I gotta say, Putin’s KGB career seems to hint that he was, in fact, one of those guys who enjoyed reading the works of Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, and Lenin in his free time.Report
I’m saying it was something he’d say to impress the people who could help him advance his career. He certainly hasn’t tried to apply any of their theories of governance.Report
Really? Because I’m seeing hints of Lenin in his handiwork.
As for Marx or Engels… I can only compare him to many others who have claimed to read them and he seems to have a better resume.Report
I referenced Dulce Et, Raft of Medusa, and Henry V because of the theme of feckless leadership and hubris that runs through them.
Another example would be Robert McNamara and the folly of the “best and brightest” leading us into Vietnam, where they knew how to count bodies but were blithely ignorant of the culture and history of Southeast Asia.
GWB excellent adventure in Iraq/ Afghanistan also comes to mind.
Weakness in algebra doesn’t seem to have been the problem in any of these cases.Report
You’re using Henry V as an example of Feckless Leadership?
Maybe we do need a few more classes in “media literacy”.Report
Jaybird, Chip said that he TOOK Humanities classes, he didn’t say he PASSED them.Report
Henry V was a perfect example of feckless leadership.
In fact, in the current situation Putin is behaving very much like Henry V.Report
And you got this from the Shakespeare play?
So, like, if someone needed to be brought up to speed, they could watch the movie and you could say “You know Kenneth Branagh? That’s what Putin is like”?Report
Yep.Report
And you’re sure that you’re not mixing up Henry V as portrayed in Henry IV and Henry V as portrayed in Henry V?
Because, at least, Henry V was the bad guy in Henry IV. (Or “antagonist”, anyway.)
While in Henry V, he was portrayed as a King worth following. Like, the Saint Crispin’s speech finishes up Act IV and Act V takes place years later when people are hammering out the treaty following his victory.
Like, your take is such a bad take that I’m going to say that you must have googled it just today (or this week, anyway) instead of it coming from your own opinion having seen it performed.Report
Why do you think he was a leader worth following?
What was the cause of the war?
Was it a just cause?
What was Shakespeare’s comment on the consequences of an unjust cause?Report
Why do you think he was a leader worth following?
The Saint Crispin’s Day speech. I linked to it above.
Was it a just cause?
According to what? The play? Yeah, seems to be a just cause according to the play. My evidence is Act V.
What was Shakespeare’s comment on the consequences of an unjust cause?
I’d say that his comment on that sort of thing could be found in Richard III, Titus Andronicus, or the Scottish play.
Which would be the examples that *I* would point to, were I trying to argue about Putin being a bad dictator instead of the one that culminates with the Saint Crispin’s Day speech and then has a denouement that involves the military leader establishing a treaty after a major victory.Report
Henry decides to invade France because he thinks it is rightfully his;
This, in your estimation, is a just cause.
Do Putin’s justifications for invading Ukraine compare to Henry’s claims to France?Report
Wait, are we discussing history now or are we discussing the play?
Because, get this, they are two different things.
Maybe we need a few more classes in “media literacy”.Report
What reason did Shakespeare give?
Is it possible to have different interpretations of Henry’s actions?Report
What reason did Shakespeare give?
For what?
Is it possible to have different interpretations of Henry’s actions?
Sure. But if you wanted to make the point that Henry V was feckless, maybe you should avoid the play with the “Band of Brothers” speech that ends with glorious victory and maybe lean on the prequel where he’s the bad guy.
Or, hell, use a good example instead of a bad one. I named three plays you could have run with.
Hell, use Harry Potter and call Putin “Literally Voldemort”.
It’d be a better example than Henry Freaking V.Report
Shakespeare tells us that Henry just decided to invade another nation because he thinks it belongs to him, and besides the other nation insulted him.
And in fact, Shakespeare also tells us that Henry threatened to have his troops rape and pillage the French villages.
So so far, this sounds amazingly like almost any dictator’s pretext for invading any other nation.
I mean, I’m pretty sure that some Russian general gave a stirring speech about how the men asleep in Moscow considered their manhood cheap.
But…on the other side of the ledger…He gave a tremendously stirring speech.
Don’t you think the fact that you and I have such different interpretations of the play suggest that it might be a good source of knowledge and wisdom for a young person wanting to lead?
Or is Henry V just a trivial bit of nothing, not worth studying?Report
Don’t you think the fact that you and I have such different interpretations of the play suggest that it might be a good source of knowledge and wisdom for a young person wanting to lead?
I agree that it should be.
I also think that it is worth reading multiple interpretations of the play and to compare heterodox opinions on a play written in 1599 and see if people at the time were arguing about whether Henry V was a bad king after seeing it and talk about people in 1699 and their opinion and 1799 and see if people were talking about it then and 1899 and see how people were discussing it and even 1999 and see how people were discussing it and then we can look at 2024 and see if anyone has a “I kind of think Henry V was problematic?” take and conclude that any opinion on any piece of art is just as good/worthless as any other.
“Why is the St. Crispin speech considered ‘good’?”, we could ask. And then we could ask whether it was considered good by people who were, themselves, good. And what conclusions we should reach if the only people who liked it were, themselves, racist.
And then we could call for our student debt to be forgiven because, for some reason, we’re less employable than generations past.Report
Most STEM students have some version of my trick memory: they can memorize a whole bunch of facts and figures temporarily, then forget them at the end of the semester. At the undergraduate level, they don’t need to relate the facts from medieval European history to the facts from medieval Japanese history. In the M part of STEM, in differential equations you need to remember the rote learning stuff from calc 1 three semesters ago, or you’ll fail.
I largely wasted a semester of physics because I took the self-paced version and let myself get to the point where I had to pass the exams for nine units in nine class days. Turned into an exercise in memorize and (mostly) forget.Report
In my day, the standard public school sequence (and the sequence at my Catholic-affiliated high school) was Algebra in 9th grade, Geometry in 10th, Trigonometry in 11th, and a variety of options in 12th, the most demanding of which was Calculus. (In my high school, there was Calculus, period.) There was nothing that was described as Algebra II and I do not know today what high school Algebra II consists of. There may have been options for certain advanced students to take Algebra in 8th grade, but I am not sure, and in any event it was not on offer in my public middle school. There was also AP Calculus. It seemed to work reasonably well for most of us.
There have been many changes since, probably reflecting changes in educational fashion more than anything else. I vaguely remember something known as Integrated Mathematics, which, in theory, taught such parts of the standard subjects at whatever grade level the student was deemed able to understand them, without regard to strict subject-matter boundaries. Now, I think, we do something more aligned with traditional subject-matter boundaries. (I have previously related the story of how, during the New Math era, we were exposed in 4th grade to what amounted to elementary Algebra without it being so identified. New Math went the way of the dodo and the dinosaur for reasons that probably were no better than the reasons for introducing it in the first place.)
There are probably multiple reasonable ways to teach math, and privileging that we think we remember about what was in fashion during our own high school days — when most kids hated math and not that many ever learned it well or retained it later in life — isn’t serious.Report
I guess that having a mathematics class that actually engages students is good, but I’m left wondering whether it’s popular because it’s more relevant or whether it’s popular because it’s easy. (I’m having a lot of trouble finding any actual course content for high school-level data science classes.)
And I can think of two things that will shut the idea down:
1) If “Data Science” isn’t set up as a valid prerequisite for calculus, then that will be a problem, because colleges are not going to stop caring whether or not you took calculus in high school.
2) If the “Data Science” class is all the black kids, and Algebra 2 is all the white kids, then it’ll last about one year before the jokes about “they turned ‘the hood math test’ into an actual thing” get too nasty.Report
A lot of countries, particularly but not always in Asia, seems to sacrifice a lot of aspects of education on the altar of STEM. This is not always great and I think comes with the assumption that exposure to the arts & humanities will create dissent and desire for democracy.
But they don’t seem to think math is an innate skill. Rather it is something that almost anyone can master with enough education and repetition. The problem for Americans is that these countries tend to teach math by rote memorization and Americans have a dislike of rote memorization in school. We think it boring. Also a lot of schools from elementary school on up will have teachers that specialize in math and not leave it a general elementary school teacher. From what I have heard, a lot of elementary school teachers are very scared about teaching math and the anxiety gets passed onto students.
In 2022 or 2023, there was an article in the New Yorker by an American who worked in China at a University and his daughters’ experiences at a Chinese elementary school (and his as well). He wrote that the math teacher and the power to unilaterally cancel recess if she believed kids needed more math work and did so with relish. I am not sure this is a good idea, young kids need unstructured play, but I am sure cranky engineers think it is a great idea. But it shows what some countries will do to excel at math.Report
The focus on STEM can also be done to calm down tensions in a lot of places with contentious history and/or demographics like Malaysia or South Korea. Basically imagine if the United States decided to deal with our contentious history by just having everybody do STEM the entire time rather than get into fights about history, literature, and representation. The only reason why America can’t do this is our fundies would be up and arms about it.Report
Andrew, in my mind, you will always be a kickboxer at Walmart. I need that. I can’t explain why, but I do.Report
Like my brother says, Americans seem to have developed this weird idea is that some people are good at math and other people are bad at math and will need to power through it. The idea that a decently competent teacher can teach students of average to good diligence complicated math is seen as just out there. Even in very good suburban districts or very expensive elite private schools, the idea that some people are good at math and some people are bad at math is accepted as a fact of life. One of the changes brought by large scale Asian immigration is that they are coming from countries where the idea that some people are just not good at math isn’t accepted as truth and that a decently competent teacher can tech complicated math to reasonably diligent students.Report
There really are people who are better at math than others, and they and MIT and Cal Tech will find each other. Those students will pick it up faster and see deeper into it, and the rest of us just have to put up with it because it’s against the law to shoot them. (Stuffing them into their lockers, though ….)
But there’s no reason that the vast majority of the rest of us can’t become at least competent in high-school level math. It takes teachers who know what they are doing and students willing to do the work. Given those ingredients, probably any half-way reasonable approach should work; without them, probably the best approach, if we knew what it was, will fail.Report
This is true with every subject but many Americans from all sorts of backgrounds just seem to accept that there will be many humans are bad with math beyond basic adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing.Report
I think it may take an extra level of skill to teach math beyond a certain point to the non-naturals. I actually did best when the instruction was pure rote.
It took a turn for the worst when I got to middle school and had the nun who just wrote on the board and if you got it you got it and if you didn’t you didn’t. Hilariously she was so old she had also taught my dad when he was in high school. He apparently did poorly too. But what can you do? Give up and go to law school I guess.Report
It’s like I wrote a whole comment on this in invisible ink. Americans issues with math boils down to a few things:
1. We abhor rote memorization as a pedagogical tool but it might just be the best form of instruction for math even though it is extremely boring;
2. We little generalized elementary school teachers teach basic math even though it probably could use a specialist teacher even in elementary school. From what I have heard, a lot of elementary school teachers are very anxious about teaching math and pass this anxiety on to their students.Report
Ha, sorry, I was riffing off you some, but neglected the acknowledgement.Report
Thinking that you can teach mathematics by “rote memorization” is the reason so many people have trouble with mathematics that isn’t arithmetic.Report
Rote memorization is not the only thing but it’s a necessary prerequisite for most people. There’s been some disastrous mathematics pedagogy based on the idea that we can somehow directly teach “concepts” without the groundwork that drill-and-kill provides.Report
We abhor rote memorization as a pedagogical tool but it might just be the best form of instruction for math even though it is extremely boring…
This misses the entire purpose of math. All of the rote learning is preparation. The purpose arrives when you get to the part most people seem to seriously dread about math classes… word problems.
Math is hardly the only thing that we teach by rote memorization. Foreign languages come to mind. Memorize the thousand most common words. Memorize the grammar rules so you can build sentences. Lots of people never get past the point of translating from, for example, German to English in their head, then translate their response from English to German and say it. What a glorious day it was when I first started thinking in German, without the translation steps.Report
The fun part about being an adult is realizing that most well-paying jobs resolve down to “do group projects to solve word problems, every day for the rest of your life”.Report
There are also people who are better at music than others. My father and I were a little bit in awe of each other. He couldn’t read music, but could listen to a recording, fool around a bit, and then sing it for you with all the right chords on the guitar. Ask him to do it a half-step higher and he’d hum the new first note, then sing/play it correctly the first time. He was a musician; despite all my years in school band, I was a technician. Dad said he was amazed that I could apply some piece of math to a problem in one field, then look at a problem in a different area and casually say, “Same math.”Report
The “standard” high school math sequence is algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2, pre-calc. The reason is that it prepares the students who are going off to the state university to study engineering (hundreds/thousands of them per state, year after year). At college they do calc 1, 2, and 3, a semester of linear algebra, and a semester of differential equations. That’s the math they need for all of the classical engineering fields. For those students, high-school calculus is just advanced placement.
If I were planning a high-school math sequence for the non-engineers, it would be quite different. Probably not workable because historically, it’s been really hard to recruit high-school math teachers who could do a good job on probability/statistics* and assorted discrete math.
* Just to show my biases, you can’t really understand continuous distribution functions and the statistics that follow without understanding integrals.Report
I take you at your word that that is the current fashion. My own high school days go back over half a century, though I remember what the fashion was then.
Where, if at all, does Trigonometry fit in now? Pre-Calc?Report
Back when I took it, yeah, all the stuff that went with transcendental functions, plus some basic analytic geometry.
When I went off to college, I was invited to be in the “honors” calculus class. Three semesters of calculus done in two semesters. The first day Dr. Lewis handed out a quiz that was intended to determine if you had a good grasp on transcendentals.Report
Let me add that when I taught calc 1 a few years ago at a community college that had to meet the standards of the state’s four-year universities, that was the assumption: mastery of polynomial, trig, and exponential/log functions.Report
New York’s high school math sequence was Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Trigonometry, and Pre-Calculus for non-honors students. Honors students took Algebra 1 in 8th grade and Calculus in their senior year.Report
I’m sure you’re right, but when are you talking about? And what happened to Geometry in those days?Report
I think geometry was part of Algebra 2.Report
In 1988, it was rolled into Algebra 2 (9th grade). 10th grade got Trig (“it is a sin to call a sine a sin”).
Taught by large WWII veterans who still used “Abel, Baker, Charlie” as the alphabet for different line segments.Report
Even in the rural-ish states where I went to high school, schools that were big enough did the same thing, giving the college prep kids the opportunity to start algebra in 8th grade and tacking a year of calculus on for 12th grade. The smaller schools didn’t have enough students to justify having a calculus class.Report
We should have something like a degree that says “I went to college but I didn’t have any weed-out courses” and a different degree that says “I went to college and I had a couple of weed-out courses along the way”.
This way employers can say “I want to hire someone who is good at math” or they can say “I want someone who feels things really strongly.”
And if they need a position that is customer-facing, they can hire the person who feels things strongly.Report
Are there really schools that don’t require any math for humanities track students and humanities for STEM track students? I went to big state flagship (go Terps!) and no matter what you were majoring in there was a core curriculum that included both. Typically people would take a lot of those freshman and sophomore year then junior and senior year would become more major focused under the assumption that by then you’d have the pre reqs done. I was humanities track from day 1 but still took 2 math classes and 3 science classes (1 lab, 2 non lab).
Now, if I had a bone to pick on the humanities side it would be pushing people more towards entry level statistics courses and less towards some kind of college algebra that is mostly rehashing or building on high school. When I think of the kinds of errors humanities focused people make in real life that are relevant to their work it’s things like ‘doesn’t understand issues with small sample sizes’ or ‘fails to grasp limitations of univariate analysis.’Report
The complaint about education that seems to keep bubbling up is the lack of an “Adulting 101” course.
“Are we ever going to use this in real life?” could be sufficiently tackled by Adulting 101.
We could hammer out small sample sizes, per capita, whether a burger that is 1/3rd of a pound is a bigger burger than a quarter-pounder, checkbook balancing, and the ever-important ability to look at a number and say “that seems too large” or “that seems too small”.
I would be 100% down with that.
Hell, I’d make passing this particular course a pre-requisite for graduation.
It could even be a question during interviews. “It says ‘Some College’… did that include Adulting 101?”Report
I think that’s why God invented transcripts.Report
Where’s the “I’m a STEM degree holding a-hole who thinks I knoe everything about the world because I’m good at math and coding, but only played contarian in the humanity classes I complained about the whole time” degree? Maybe call it the Elon Musk Memorial DegreeReport
What we need is a Humanities course that you can’t disagree with.
Put together a Canon and make sure that people know that this is doctrine.Report
What’s amusing is thinking that the guy who was declared “contarian” (sic) and consigned to the Ignore Corner learned nothing from his Humanities class.
Like, maybe he didn’t learn the words of the dogma, but he definitely learned something about people; and particularly about the kind of people who didn’t get ignored in Humanities class.Report
Saul: Humanities are good because they’re subversive.
Jesse: No, not like that!Report
“This way employers can say “I want to hire someone who is good at math” or they can say “I want someone who feels things really strongly.””
Employers who want to hire someone who is good in math already know what colleges do that.
Employers who just want to hire Someone Who Can Act White don’t care.Report