It Was My Understanding There Would Be No Algebra 2

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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116 Responses

  1. Murali
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    says:

    I’m of 2 minds here.
    1. I think we can be more nuanced and fine-grained about which courses require what pre reqs.

    2. the perception that those in the Humanities don’t need maths is pernicious because lack of numeracy is a real problem that translates into an inability to think quantitatively when necessary.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Murali
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      says:

      Americans seem to have a tick that math is something you are good at or not. We see it as innate for some reason.

      The issue I think is a feeling of culture war onslaught where people who study, teach, and/or work in the arts & humanities feel constantly devalued because the subjects can’t be monetized as easily and the right-wing finds them subversive and just wants docile enough engineersReport

      • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw
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        says:

        Yeah, whatever would happen to software if the programmers hadn’t taken a course on the Twilight series.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird
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          says:

          “I think the tech industry would be a lot better if they all were forced to read books”
          “OK they’ll read Orwell and Drake and Kipling and Heinlein and Rand”
          “wait no I didn’t mean THOSE books, I meant the PROPER AND CORRECT books’Report

          • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck
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            says:

            Why do you think people would have a problem with Orwell (except, maybe, for the”pansy left” thing — but that’s how people talked back then)? Orwell, by the way, wrote an excellent essay on Kipling that should be required for anyone who reads Kipling.
            As for Heinlein and Rand, sci-fi and turgid novels just don’t rate.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to CJColucci
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              says:

              The Fountainhead was assigned in one of my architecture courses, and was one of those things that helped convert me out of my Reaganism.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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              says:

              Because he was sadistic, misogynistic, homophobic, and sometimes violent?

              And before you are inclined to defend him against these accusations, please understand that I am not the source of these allegations.

              I’m merely pointing out why I think people would have a problem with Orwell.

              As for the claim that sci-fi and turgid novels don’t rate, let me point out that Melissa Click, the professor who famously yelled “WE NEED SOME MUSCLE OVER HERE!” taught a course on Stephenie Meyer’s Twilight series.

              I *WISH* that turgid novels didn’t rate.

              But here we are. They do.

              Best of luck gatekeeping.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                There are plenty of reasons for having a problem with Orwell as a person. There are plenty of reasons for having problems with lots of writers as persons. Maybe even most of them. Whether those problems do or should carry over to their books is another question, and I read DD as claiming that people would have a problem with the books rather than the persons. If I am wrong, it would not be the first time that figuring out what DD means is a fraught exercise.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Believe it or not, the whole “separate the art from the artist” debate, despite having been settled back in the 1970s, is *BACK*.

                Yeah, I can’t believe it either.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                As far as I remember, back farther than the 70’s, it never got “settled” and never went away. I don’t propose to enter into it here. If I misunderstood DD’s position, whatever it is, he can speak for himself.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Murali
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      says:

      And vice versa, the idea that those in STEM don’t need Humanities is pernicious because lack of an understanding of the human condition is a real problem that translates into an inability to manage people.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels
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        says:

        I think the STEM argument is that the humanities are less rigorous than STEM because the average STEM student can take a high level humanities class without much foundation and get a high grade while humanities students are at loss in the STEM subjects.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq
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          says:

          I’d appreciate it if we could hammer out what we’re talking about with regards to “Humanities”.

          The implication seems to be that taking courses in the Humanities will somehow imbue some important moral foundations to the otherwise immoral human but I am unclear as to what courses would do that.

          Courses in Shakespeare?
          Courses in Greek History?
          Courses in Art History?
          Courses in Interpretive Dance?
          Courses in 17th Century French Poetry?
          Women’s Studies?

          What’s the mechanism whereby a course in Children’s Literature will help the Chemical Engineer avoid getting hired by Exxon/Mobil and instead go into non-profit ethanol research?Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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            says:

            Its not morality, its the ability to manage and lead.

            Wars and kingdoms have been won or lost, and vast corporations succeed or fail on the ability of the leaders to understand the human condition and organize people to be united in a single purpose and direction.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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              says:

              Oh, is that what a handful of humanities courses provides?

              You’d think that businesses would be champing at the bit to get more people with courses that talk about Winslow Homer or Margie Gillis then.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                They should probably emulate the US military and its program of Humanities as being essential to leadership.

                https://courses.westpoint.edu/static/index.htm#t=AcademicProgram.htmReport

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Let’s see what West Point talks about…

                Economics, Political Science, International Relations, History (Military, US/Regional, and Art), Composition, Literature, Philosophy and Ethical Reasoning, Foreign Language, Psychology, Constitutional/Military Law, Military Leadership, and Officership.

                Hell, I think that if a guy came in with a Humanities Degree and said that that’s what he studied (or Gal and that’s what she studied), we’d all be impressed with Humanities degrees.

                Is West Point’s curriculum representative of what the average Humanities degree looks like?

                If so, man! I sure have been dismissive of Humanities degrees unfairly!Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                What does “literature” mean to you?

                What does it mean to “Understand, analyze, and know how to influence human behavior”?

                Or to “Analyze the history, diversity, complexity, and interaction of cultures”?

                Or to ” Analyze political, legal, military, and economic influences on social systems”?

                Or to “Engage in and reflect on cross cultural experiences”?

                What does it mean to “Integrate the methodologies of the humanities and social sciences in decision-making”?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Wow, those are pretty impressive things to list off!

                Can we say that they accurately represent what a person who has a Humanities degree can do?

                If so, man! I sure have been dismissive of Humanities degrees unfairly!Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Yes we can and yes you have been.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Really? Because it feels like a weird “motte and bailey” thing where we’re comparing “in theory” to “in practice” and you’re arguing for, like, a perfectly ideal Humanities degree when the college is more likely to graduate someone with a BS BA that has not been trained to manage and lead, let alone understand, analyze, and know how to influence human behavior.

                I mean, if that’s what they were pushing out the door, I’m pretty sure that we’d all be cool with Humanities degrees.

                So there seems to be a disconnect somewhere.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I took a look at my alma mater’s history degree requirements and found this: https://www.luc.edu/media/lucedu/history/pdfs/New%20Major%20One%20Pager.pdf

                You can go as traditional or frou frou as you like. I’m sure, based on my experience, the coursework is rigorous whatever path you take. The outcome may not be as desirable, but I would think if you’re taking the frou frou path you’re looking at an academic future.

                In either case, the student will learn skills like synthesis and analysis that can be applied to real world applications. I know because I majored in history at that university and never used my degree, while becoming successful in an entirely unrelated field. (Success being defined as being nearly instantly employable.)Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
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                says:

                If we’re defining success as “being nearly instantly employable”, isn’t that measurable enough to declare whether a STEM degree will make you more successful than a Humanities degree? (Or vice-versa, or whether it’s a wash?)Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I’m sure there are plenty of out of work former Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. employees who might argue to the contrary.

                My 2 children majored in whatever they wanted to major in. One chose marketing and one chose bio. Neither one used the piece of paper for anything beyond getting in the door of the first employer. Neither has been unemployed.

                Time was people who work in your field didn’t even need a degree, and IIRC yours is in philosophy. Maybe not the case anymore but that might just be gatekeeping as happens in all fields eventually.

                My point is, a humanities major might not get you in the door everywhere, but it probably should.

                Edited to add: look at law schools. They take all comers and churn out lawyers.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Slade the Leveller
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                says:

                “a humanities major might not get you in the door everywhere, but it probably should.”

                you’re right that if you want to prove you’re part of A Certain Demographic then just about any degree will do.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
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                says:

                If we’re using “instantly employable and continually employed at the same place” as the definition, I’m good with that too.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I mean instantly employable at almost any location.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
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                says:

                Almost any?

                I’d say that there are probably a *LOT* more companies out there that could hire a Humanities grad on day 1 than companies that could hire a Chemical Engineer on day 1.

                Even so… I think I’d still be willing to run with that.

                Though I’d point out that showing a former software engineer isn’t a counter-example to the argument.Report

            • Michael Cain in reply to Chip Daniels
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              says:

              Its not morality, its the ability to manage and lead.

              Do you and the MBA schools who claim to teach that agree on anything?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Michael Cain
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                says:

                I don’t know what exactly is being taught in MBA classes but over the years I have been subjected to half a dozen different “Leadership” training sessions by various companies, and almost all of them offer some variation on “You need to understand your people if you want to lead them” which is interesting only that so obvious a thing needs to be said at all.

                That there is such a vast trove of literature and art devoted to how ineffective leadership can kill a corporation makes it all the more absurd when people ask the worth of humanities.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                When I was at Bell Labs long ago, one of my bosses went off to a leadership class about once every six months. We bribed the department secretary to make us a copy of the training material they had sent to him so we had some idea of what was coming.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                I think it’s true that you need to understand people to lead them. I also think 90% of those training things are some combination of scam, grift, and bullsh*t artistry.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
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                says:

                Agreed, and this is partly because many of the CEOs who direct the corporation don’t accept that basic premise because (and this will shock no one) they themselves have no grasp of leadership.
                They’ve never read Henry V or Dulce Et Decorum Est or looked at the Raft Of Medusa painting.

                The idea that they themselves could possibly be like the incompetent and idiotic aristocrats of old is made invisible to them, by the very hubris and arrogance which makes the comparison apt.

                And so the attitude trickles down that “leadership” is really just a flimflammery mix of bullying and emotional manipulation.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                “The ones in the past were. And, yes, the Humanities degrees in the 1960s and 1970s failed to do this. Technically, the ones in the 1980s and 1990s failed as well. BUT THIS NEXT BATCH WILL TOTALLY WORK.”

                They’ve never read Henry V or Dulce Et Decorum Est or looked at the Raft Of Medusa painting.

                Get the Blu-Ray of Henry V for about $20. If you just want to hit the Saint Crispin’s Day speech:

                You can read Wilfred Owen’s Dulce et Decorum Est.

                (Compare and contrast the poem to Branagh’s reading of the speech!)

                Check out The Raft of the Medusa and be pleased that they’ve got a hi-res version (make it your wallpaper!).

                How different would your job be if your boss had experienced any of these?

                I mean, instead of learning how to drink two beers with a funnel in less than 30 seconds with his frat bros in Beta Theta Phi.Report

              • LeeEsq in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Up until the middle of the 20th century, when very few people went to college, the humanities were considered important because you wanted the leaders to be all-rounders that could understand and do a bit of everything. After World War II, we entered into the age of the specialist and the new idea is that all rounders were no longer useful even in leadership roles. Rather people needed to specialize in something and become the best at it and rise to leadership that way. Not only did the sciences get more specialized, so did business itself. Part of this is so areas like business, law, etc. would seem more scientific than they were in practice.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq
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                says:

                If we’re using what Humanities were in 1940 to sell Humanities degrees in 2024, I can’t help but think that most of the people involved with that are part of a bait and switch.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                It’s not the Shakespeare that has caused the reputation of the humanities to plummet.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Speaking of bait and switch…

                So its not “the humanities” you are denigrating, its “the humanities as taught to these kids today”.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                I’m not denigrating the motte, Chip.

                I’m denigrating the bailey.

                You may have noticed that the Humanities that you are selling are not exactly the Humanities that people got in the 70’s, 80’s, and now 90’s.

                Maybe the ones that people got in the teens will work this time.

                Maybe the ones in the 20’s.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Without even arguing the point, I’m just pointing out that this is bog standard conservatism, the “Decline and Fall” assertion.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Chip, you’re the one saying that people need this Humanities education so we have X, Y, and Zed.

                I’m pointing out that you didn’t get X, Y, and Zed 40 years ago, you didn’t get X, Y, and Zed 30 years ago, you didn’t get X, Y, and Zed 20 years ago, and I’m not confident that you’re going to get X, Y, and Zed from the folks who got Humanities degrees 10 years ago and so your assertions that we need people to study the Humanities today because we need people who have X, Y, and Zed strikes me as blind.

                Like, have you been paying attention?

                You may as well ask Culinary School to give you better accountants.

                I’m not engaging in “Decline and Fall” assertions. I’m pointing out THAT YOU’RE SENDING PEOPLE TO CULINARY SCHOOL AND NOT ACCOUNTING SCHOOL.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                A pivot back to Western Civ would be invaluable. Of course we’d also need students that can read Metamorphoses without filing a complaint with the dean of gender based aggressions or whatever.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD
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                says:

                I am a big fan of Western Civ. We should have courses in it.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                As Gandhi said, he was all in favor of it.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Your metaphor is incoherent. Algebra isn’t helping you in this argument.

                If humanities study hasn’t changed, then why the reference to 1940?

                And if you’re trying to say humanities aren’t and never were important or necessary, you need to do some work, and not just sneer.

                My assertion is that we lost Vietnam and Afghanistan/Iraq in part because of a lack of humanities.

                Argue against that, if you want.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Chip, I am saying that Humanities are and have been important and necessary.

                I’ll repeat what I said above, again:

                Really? Because it feels like a weird “motte and bailey” thing where we’re comparing “in theory” to “in practice” and you’re arguing for, like, a perfectly ideal Humanities degree when the college is more likely to graduate someone with a BS BA that has not been trained to manage and lead, let alone understand, analyze, and know how to influence human behavior.

                I mean, if that’s what they were pushing out the door, I’m pretty sure that we’d all be cool with Humanities degrees.

                So there seems to be a disconnect somewhere.

                Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                OK, so you’re saying the most humanities graduates can’t “understand, analyze, and know how to influence human behavior”.

                That’s an assertion that needs a bit of support.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Well, it’s like saying “they can’t cook!”

                Maybe they can cook and maybe they can’t.

                But it’s not their degree in the Humanities that taught them how.

                Burden of proof is on you that that’s what whatever degrees they’re getting are teaching them.

                I mean, if you’re also arguing that learning Chemical Engineering, Database Administration, or Software Development doesn’t teach these things.

                Personally, I think that the AI guys will have more of an impact on human behavior over the next year than the folks who got degrees in Marionette Arts.

                But I’d like to hear your arguments for why, no, it’s the Humanities that will be at the point of the spear when it comes to understanding, analysis, and influence.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Lets start with my assertion that wars like Vietnam and Afghanistan/ Iraq were lost due to a failure of understanding, analysis, and influence.

                The people in charge had no flipping idea who they were fighting or what their history was and why entering into the wars was a fool’s errand before the first shot was fired.

                But someone well versed in history would have known.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                So you believe that we could have won Vietnam?

                That’s kind of interesting.

                If it were up to you, would you rather that Ukranians spend more time reading poems like Dulce et Decorum Est or listening to speeches like Henry’s “St. Crispin’s Day” speech?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Entering into the wars was a fool’s errand before the first shot was fired.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                If it were up to you, would you rather that Ukrainians spend more time reading poems like Dulce et Decorum Est or listening to speeches like Henry’s “St. Crispin’s Day” speech?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                The Ukrainians already know the history and culture of the people they are fighting.

                Its Putin who should study Henry V and ask if the king’s cause be just.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                So it’s not whether “people” should study the Humanities but whether this one guy should have?

                From what I understand, Putin went to Saint Petersburg High School 281 and, during that era, the USSR enjoyed a higher rate of literacy and cultural study than the United States.

                From Wikipedia:

                In his free time, he enjoyed reading the works of Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, and Lenin.

                Sounds like he’s better educated than someone who spends her free time reading Harry Potter and Twilight novels.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                This is the point in the discussion where you need to prepare some sort of argument.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Sure. “I don’t think that a Humanities education will necessarily get Humanity where you want Humanity to go. Even assuming that a Humanities education still involves the greatest hits of DWMs.”Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                OK that’s the assertion.

                Give it some support and you will get to an argument.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Sure. How’s this?

                “The argument that a Humanities education will result in people who more or less agree with you on important conclusions on important topics is demonstrably absurd by something as simple as pointing out significant historical examples. Your argument is faulty.”

                And if you want another one, pointing out that you don’t care whether the men of Ukraine read poetry, just that Putin ought to have read it and reached the same conclusions as you will be the foundation of that one.

                If you want another one, that is.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Well its a good thing I never made such an argument.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Its Putin who should study Henry V and ask if the king’s cause be just.

                This was your answer to whether the men of Ukraine should read one of the examples that *YOU* gave.

                And I’m pointing out that… I’m pretty sure that Putin received an education in the Humanities given his leisure reading.

                He merely reached different conclusions about the world than you.

                Maybe we could get him to read Harry Potter and then tell him that he is acting like Voldemort.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Are you sure?

                You think that in the Soviet Union there was a free and open discussion of the lessons from literature about the dangers of naked aggression against peaceful people?

                Or is it more likely that the Communists cherry picked literature and suppressed anything that might lead a young officer to the bourgeoisie idea that mutual respect and self-determination are the foundation of world peace?

                The track record of Communism in their fear and loathing of art should count as a reason why we should value the humanities.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                You think that in the Soviet Union there was a free and open discussion of the lessons from literature about the dangers of naked aggression against peaceful people?

                I’m sure there was.

                That’s why they gave so much aid to North Vietnam.

                Or is it more likely that the Communists cherry picked literature and suppressed anything that might lead a young officer to the bourgeoisie idea that mutual respect and self-determination are the foundation of world peace?

                Cherry picking literature?

                In the Humanities?Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                This sounds like all of the Miss America contestants who say their best friend is their mom.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
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                says:

                Is the argument that this is obviously untrue?

                Because, I gotta say, Putin’s KGB career seems to hint that he was, in fact, one of those guys who enjoyed reading the works of Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, and Lenin in his free time.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I’m saying it was something he’d say to impress the people who could help him advance his career. He certainly hasn’t tried to apply any of their theories of governance.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Slade the Leveller
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                says:

                Really? Because I’m seeing hints of Lenin in his handiwork.

                As for Marx or Engels… I can only compare him to many others who have claimed to read them and he seems to have a better resume.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq
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                says:

                I referenced Dulce Et, Raft of Medusa, and Henry V because of the theme of feckless leadership and hubris that runs through them.

                Another example would be Robert McNamara and the folly of the “best and brightest” leading us into Vietnam, where they knew how to count bodies but were blithely ignorant of the culture and history of Southeast Asia.

                GWB excellent adventure in Iraq/ Afghanistan also comes to mind.

                Weakness in algebra doesn’t seem to have been the problem in any of these cases.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                You’re using Henry V as an example of Feckless Leadership?

                Maybe we do need a few more classes in “media literacy”.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Jaybird, Chip said that he TOOK Humanities classes, he didn’t say he PASSED them.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to DensityDuck
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                says:

                Henry V was a perfect example of feckless leadership.

                In fact, in the current situation Putin is behaving very much like Henry V.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                And you got this from the Shakespeare play?

                So, like, if someone needed to be brought up to speed, they could watch the movie and you could say “You know Kenneth Branagh? That’s what Putin is like”?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Yep.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                And you’re sure that you’re not mixing up Henry V as portrayed in Henry IV and Henry V as portrayed in Henry V?

                Because, at least, Henry V was the bad guy in Henry IV. (Or “antagonist”, anyway.)

                While in Henry V, he was portrayed as a King worth following. Like, the Saint Crispin’s speech finishes up Act IV and Act V takes place years later when people are hammering out the treaty following his victory.

                Like, your take is such a bad take that I’m going to say that you must have googled it just today (or this week, anyway) instead of it coming from your own opinion having seen it performed.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Why do you think he was a leader worth following?

                What was the cause of the war?

                Was it a just cause?

                What was Shakespeare’s comment on the consequences of an unjust cause?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Why do you think he was a leader worth following?

                The Saint Crispin’s Day speech. I linked to it above.

                Was it a just cause?

                According to what? The play? Yeah, seems to be a just cause according to the play. My evidence is Act V.

                What was Shakespeare’s comment on the consequences of an unjust cause?

                I’d say that his comment on that sort of thing could be found in Richard III, Titus Andronicus, or the Scottish play.

                Which would be the examples that *I* would point to, were I trying to argue about Putin being a bad dictator instead of the one that culminates with the Saint Crispin’s Day speech and then has a denouement that involves the military leader establishing a treaty after a major victory.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Henry decides to invade France because he thinks it is rightfully his;

                This, in your estimation, is a just cause.

                Do Putin’s justifications for invading Ukraine compare to Henry’s claims to France?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Wait, are we discussing history now or are we discussing the play?

                Because, get this, they are two different things.

                Maybe we need a few more classes in “media literacy”.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                What reason did Shakespeare give?

                Is it possible to have different interpretations of Henry’s actions?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                What reason did Shakespeare give?

                For what?

                Is it possible to have different interpretations of Henry’s actions?

                Sure. But if you wanted to make the point that Henry V was feckless, maybe you should avoid the play with the “Band of Brothers” speech that ends with glorious victory and maybe lean on the prequel where he’s the bad guy.

                Or, hell, use a good example instead of a bad one. I named three plays you could have run with.

                Hell, use Harry Potter and call Putin “Literally Voldemort”.

                It’d be a better example than Henry Freaking V.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Shakespeare tells us that Henry just decided to invade another nation because he thinks it belongs to him, and besides the other nation insulted him.

                And in fact, Shakespeare also tells us that Henry threatened to have his troops rape and pillage the French villages.

                So so far, this sounds amazingly like almost any dictator’s pretext for invading any other nation.

                I mean, I’m pretty sure that some Russian general gave a stirring speech about how the men asleep in Moscow considered their manhood cheap.

                But…on the other side of the ledger…He gave a tremendously stirring speech.

                Don’t you think the fact that you and I have such different interpretations of the play suggest that it might be a good source of knowledge and wisdom for a young person wanting to lead?

                Or is Henry V just a trivial bit of nothing, not worth studying?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Don’t you think the fact that you and I have such different interpretations of the play suggest that it might be a good source of knowledge and wisdom for a young person wanting to lead?

                I agree that it should be.

                I also think that it is worth reading multiple interpretations of the play and to compare heterodox opinions on a play written in 1599 and see if people at the time were arguing about whether Henry V was a bad king after seeing it and talk about people in 1699 and their opinion and 1799 and see if people were talking about it then and 1899 and see how people were discussing it and even 1999 and see how people were discussing it and then we can look at 2024 and see if anyone has a “I kind of think Henry V was problematic?” take and conclude that any opinion on any piece of art is just as good/worthless as any other.

                “Why is the St. Crispin speech considered ‘good’?”, we could ask. And then we could ask whether it was considered good by people who were, themselves, good. And what conclusions we should reach if the only people who liked it were, themselves, racist.

                And then we could call for our student debt to be forgiven because, for some reason, we’re less employable than generations past.Report

        • Michael Cain in reply to LeeEsq
          Ignored
          says:

          Most STEM students have some version of my trick memory: they can memorize a whole bunch of facts and figures temporarily, then forget them at the end of the semester. At the undergraduate level, they don’t need to relate the facts from medieval European history to the facts from medieval Japanese history. In the M part of STEM, in differential equations you need to remember the rote learning stuff from calc 1 three semesters ago, or you’ll fail.

          I largely wasted a semester of physics because I took the self-paced version and let myself get to the point where I had to pass the exams for nine units in nine class days. Turned into an exercise in memorize and (mostly) forget.Report

  2. CJColucci
    Ignored
    says:

    In my day, the standard public school sequence (and the sequence at my Catholic-affiliated high school) was Algebra in 9th grade, Geometry in 10th, Trigonometry in 11th, and a variety of options in 12th, the most demanding of which was Calculus. (In my high school, there was Calculus, period.) There was nothing that was described as Algebra II and I do not know today what high school Algebra II consists of. There may have been options for certain advanced students to take Algebra in 8th grade, but I am not sure, and in any event it was not on offer in my public middle school. There was also AP Calculus. It seemed to work reasonably well for most of us.
    There have been many changes since, probably reflecting changes in educational fashion more than anything else. I vaguely remember something known as Integrated Mathematics, which, in theory, taught such parts of the standard subjects at whatever grade level the student was deemed able to understand them, without regard to strict subject-matter boundaries. Now, I think, we do something more aligned with traditional subject-matter boundaries. (I have previously related the story of how, during the New Math era, we were exposed in 4th grade to what amounted to elementary Algebra without it being so identified. New Math went the way of the dodo and the dinosaur for reasons that probably were no better than the reasons for introducing it in the first place.)
    There are probably multiple reasonable ways to teach math, and privileging that we think we remember about what was in fashion during our own high school days — when most kids hated math and not that many ever learned it well or retained it later in life — isn’t serious.Report

  3. DensityDuck
    Ignored
    says:

    I guess that having a mathematics class that actually engages students is good, but I’m left wondering whether it’s popular because it’s more relevant or whether it’s popular because it’s easy. (I’m having a lot of trouble finding any actual course content for high school-level data science classes.)

    And I can think of two things that will shut the idea down:

    1) If “Data Science” isn’t set up as a valid prerequisite for calculus, then that will be a problem, because colleges are not going to stop caring whether or not you took calculus in high school.

    2) If the “Data Science” class is all the black kids, and Algebra 2 is all the white kids, then it’ll last about one year before the jokes about “they turned ‘the hood math test’ into an actual thing” get too nasty.Report

  4. Saul Degraw
    Ignored
    says:

    A lot of countries, particularly but not always in Asia, seems to sacrifice a lot of aspects of education on the altar of STEM. This is not always great and I think comes with the assumption that exposure to the arts & humanities will create dissent and desire for democracy.

    But they don’t seem to think math is an innate skill. Rather it is something that almost anyone can master with enough education and repetition. The problem for Americans is that these countries tend to teach math by rote memorization and Americans have a dislike of rote memorization in school. We think it boring. Also a lot of schools from elementary school on up will have teachers that specialize in math and not leave it a general elementary school teacher. From what I have heard, a lot of elementary school teachers are very scared about teaching math and the anxiety gets passed onto students.

    In 2022 or 2023, there was an article in the New Yorker by an American who worked in China at a University and his daughters’ experiences at a Chinese elementary school (and his as well). He wrote that the math teacher and the power to unilaterally cancel recess if she believed kids needed more math work and did so with relish. I am not sure this is a good idea, young kids need unstructured play, but I am sure cranky engineers think it is a great idea. But it shows what some countries will do to excel at math.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw
      Ignored
      says:

      The focus on STEM can also be done to calm down tensions in a lot of places with contentious history and/or demographics like Malaysia or South Korea. Basically imagine if the United States decided to deal with our contentious history by just having everybody do STEM the entire time rather than get into fights about history, literature, and representation. The only reason why America can’t do this is our fundies would be up and arms about it.Report

  5. Pinky
    Ignored
    says:

    Andrew, in my mind, you will always be a kickboxer at Walmart. I need that. I can’t explain why, but I do.Report

  6. LeeEsq
    Ignored
    says:

    Like my brother says, Americans seem to have developed this weird idea is that some people are good at math and other people are bad at math and will need to power through it. The idea that a decently competent teacher can teach students of average to good diligence complicated math is seen as just out there. Even in very good suburban districts or very expensive elite private schools, the idea that some people are good at math and some people are bad at math is accepted as a fact of life. One of the changes brought by large scale Asian immigration is that they are coming from countries where the idea that some people are just not good at math isn’t accepted as truth and that a decently competent teacher can tech complicated math to reasonably diligent students.Report

    • CJColucci in reply to LeeEsq
      Ignored
      says:

      There really are people who are better at math than others, and they and MIT and Cal Tech will find each other. Those students will pick it up faster and see deeper into it, and the rest of us just have to put up with it because it’s against the law to shoot them. (Stuffing them into their lockers, though ….)
      But there’s no reason that the vast majority of the rest of us can’t become at least competent in high-school level math. It takes teachers who know what they are doing and students willing to do the work. Given those ingredients, probably any half-way reasonable approach should work; without them, probably the best approach, if we knew what it was, will fail.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to CJColucci
        Ignored
        says:

        This is true with every subject but many Americans from all sorts of backgrounds just seem to accept that there will be many humans are bad with math beyond basic adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing.Report

        • InMD in reply to LeeEsq
          Ignored
          says:

          I think it may take an extra level of skill to teach math beyond a certain point to the non-naturals. I actually did best when the instruction was pure rote.

          It took a turn for the worst when I got to middle school and had the nun who just wrote on the board and if you got it you got it and if you didn’t you didn’t. Hilariously she was so old she had also taught my dad when he was in high school. He apparently did poorly too. But what can you do? Give up and go to law school I guess.Report

          • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD
            Ignored
            says:

            It’s like I wrote a whole comment on this in invisible ink. Americans issues with math boils down to a few things:

            1. We abhor rote memorization as a pedagogical tool but it might just be the best form of instruction for math even though it is extremely boring;

            2. We little generalized elementary school teachers teach basic math even though it probably could use a specialist teacher even in elementary school. From what I have heard, a lot of elementary school teachers are very anxious about teaching math and pass this anxiety on to their students.Report

            • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw
              Ignored
              says:

              Ha, sorry, I was riffing off you some, but neglected the acknowledgement.Report

            • DensityDuck in reply to Saul Degraw
              Ignored
              says:

              Thinking that you can teach mathematics by “rote memorization” is the reason so many people have trouble with mathematics that isn’t arithmetic.Report

              • KenB in reply to DensityDuck
                Ignored
                says:

                Rote memorization is not the only thing but it’s a necessary prerequisite for most people. There’s been some disastrous mathematics pedagogy based on the idea that we can somehow directly teach “concepts” without the groundwork that drill-and-kill provides.Report

            • Michael Cain in reply to Saul Degraw
              Ignored
              says:

              We abhor rote memorization as a pedagogical tool but it might just be the best form of instruction for math even though it is extremely boring…

              This misses the entire purpose of math. All of the rote learning is preparation. The purpose arrives when you get to the part most people seem to seriously dread about math classes… word problems.

              Math is hardly the only thing that we teach by rote memorization. Foreign languages come to mind. Memorize the thousand most common words. Memorize the grammar rules so you can build sentences. Lots of people never get past the point of translating from, for example, German to English in their head, then translate their response from English to German and say it. What a glorious day it was when I first started thinking in German, without the translation steps.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Michael Cain
                Ignored
                says:

                The fun part about being an adult is realizing that most well-paying jobs resolve down to “do group projects to solve word problems, every day for the rest of your life”.Report

      • Michael Cain in reply to CJColucci
        Ignored
        says:

        There are also people who are better at music than others. My father and I were a little bit in awe of each other. He couldn’t read music, but could listen to a recording, fool around a bit, and then sing it for you with all the right chords on the guitar. Ask him to do it a half-step higher and he’d hum the new first note, then sing/play it correctly the first time. He was a musician; despite all my years in school band, I was a technician. Dad said he was amazed that I could apply some piece of math to a problem in one field, then look at a problem in a different area and casually say, “Same math.”Report

      • Michael Cain in reply to CJColucci
        Ignored
        says:

        The “standard” high school math sequence is algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2, pre-calc. The reason is that it prepares the students who are going off to the state university to study engineering (hundreds/thousands of them per state, year after year). At college they do calc 1, 2, and 3, a semester of linear algebra, and a semester of differential equations. That’s the math they need for all of the classical engineering fields. For those students, high-school calculus is just advanced placement.

        If I were planning a high-school math sequence for the non-engineers, it would be quite different. Probably not workable because historically, it’s been really hard to recruit high-school math teachers who could do a good job on probability/statistics* and assorted discrete math.

        * Just to show my biases, you can’t really understand continuous distribution functions and the statistics that follow without understanding integrals.Report

        • CJColucci in reply to Michael Cain
          Ignored
          says:

          I take you at your word that that is the current fashion. My own high school days go back over half a century, though I remember what the fashion was then.
          Where, if at all, does Trigonometry fit in now? Pre-Calc?Report

          • Michael Cain in reply to CJColucci
            Ignored
            says:

            Back when I took it, yeah, all the stuff that went with transcendental functions, plus some basic analytic geometry.

            When I went off to college, I was invited to be in the “honors” calculus class. Three semesters of calculus done in two semesters. The first day Dr. Lewis handed out a quiz that was intended to determine if you had a good grasp on transcendentals.Report

            • Michael Cain in reply to Michael Cain
              Ignored
              says:

              Let me add that when I taught calc 1 a few years ago at a community college that had to meet the standards of the state’s four-year universities, that was the assumption: mastery of polynomial, trig, and exponential/log functions.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Michael Cain
          Ignored
          says:

          New York’s high school math sequence was Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Trigonometry, and Pre-Calculus for non-honors students. Honors students took Algebra 1 in 8th grade and Calculus in their senior year.Report

  7. Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    We should have something like a degree that says “I went to college but I didn’t have any weed-out courses” and a different degree that says “I went to college and I had a couple of weed-out courses along the way”.

    This way employers can say “I want to hire someone who is good at math” or they can say “I want someone who feels things really strongly.”

    And if they need a position that is customer-facing, they can hire the person who feels things strongly.Report

    • InMD in reply to Jaybird
      Ignored
      says:

      Are there really schools that don’t require any math for humanities track students and humanities for STEM track students? I went to big state flagship (go Terps!) and no matter what you were majoring in there was a core curriculum that included both. Typically people would take a lot of those freshman and sophomore year then junior and senior year would become more major focused under the assumption that by then you’d have the pre reqs done. I was humanities track from day 1 but still took 2 math classes and 3 science classes (1 lab, 2 non lab).

      Now, if I had a bone to pick on the humanities side it would be pushing people more towards entry level statistics courses and less towards some kind of college algebra that is mostly rehashing or building on high school. When I think of the kinds of errors humanities focused people make in real life that are relevant to their work it’s things like ‘doesn’t understand issues with small sample sizes’ or ‘fails to grasp limitations of univariate analysis.’Report

      • Jaybird in reply to InMD
        Ignored
        says:

        The complaint about education that seems to keep bubbling up is the lack of an “Adulting 101” course.

        “Are we ever going to use this in real life?” could be sufficiently tackled by Adulting 101.

        We could hammer out small sample sizes, per capita, whether a burger that is 1/3rd of a pound is a bigger burger than a quarter-pounder, checkbook balancing, and the ever-important ability to look at a number and say “that seems too large” or “that seems too small”.

        I would be 100% down with that.

        Hell, I’d make passing this particular course a pre-requisite for graduation.

        It could even be a question during interviews. “It says ‘Some College’… did that include Adulting 101?”Report

    • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
      Ignored
      says:

      I think that’s why God invented transcripts.Report

    • Jesse in reply to Jaybird
      Ignored
      says:

      Where’s the “I’m a STEM degree holding a-hole who thinks I knoe everything about the world because I’m good at math and coding, but only played contarian in the humanity classes I complained about the whole time” degree? Maybe call it the Elon Musk Memorial DegreeReport

      • Jaybird in reply to Jesse
        Ignored
        says:

        What we need is a Humanities course that you can’t disagree with.

        Put together a Canon and make sure that people know that this is doctrine.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Jesse
        Ignored
        says:

        What’s amusing is thinking that the guy who was declared “contarian” (sic) and consigned to the Ignore Corner learned nothing from his Humanities class.

        Like, maybe he didn’t learn the words of the dogma, but he definitely learned something about people; and particularly about the kind of people who didn’t get ignored in Humanities class.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Jesse
        Ignored
        says:

        Saul: Humanities are good because they’re subversive.

        Jesse: No, not like that!Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird
      Ignored
      says:

      “This way employers can say “I want to hire someone who is good at math” or they can say “I want someone who feels things really strongly.””

      Employers who want to hire someone who is good in math already know what colleges do that.

      Employers who just want to hire Someone Who Can Act White don’t care.Report

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