Free Speech, Harassment and Hypocrisy: What the University Presidents Got Right and Wrong
In 1976, the village of Skokie, Illinois received a letter from a political group proclaiming their intention to demonstrate in their town. Finding the group’s message offensive, the town passed a series of ordinances designed to make the demonstration legally impossible. The organization sued, claiming their First Amendment Rights were being violated. That group was the Illinois chapter of the National Socialist Part of America, aka, the Illinois Nazis.
NSPA v. Village of Skokie is a rather famous First Amendment case. David Goldberger, a Jew working for the ACLU, argued the case on behalf of the Nazis. However, the Supreme Court did not actually rule that the Nazis had a right to march. What they ruled was that the Illinois Supreme Court could not sit on the case. Because the case involved a fundamental First Amendment right, they had to either hold an immediate hearing or issue a stay in the Nazis’ favor. Ultimately, the State Supreme Court and the District Courts ruled that the Nazi march was within the bounds of free speech, even in a heavily Jewish village filled with Holocaust survivors. SCOTUS then declined to hear the appeal, letting the precedent stand. This set of rulings set the precedent, still standing, that even Nazis have the right to free speech.
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I thought of the Skokie case immediately after Elise Stefanik’s now famous confrontation with the Presidents of Harvard, Penn and MIT. Stefanik pressed the presidents to give a clear answer on whether or not calling for the genocide of Jews violated their universities’ policies on harassment and abuse. The presidents somewhat stumbled over the question but seemed to settle on the idea that calling for this in the abstract was not a violation of their policy but targeting such speech specifically at Jews would be. The ensuing backlash was severe and the President of Penn has already resigned in the wake of this. There seems to be a broad consensus that the institutions were saying they were OK with anti-semitism and were finally called out on it.
But perhaps you will forgive me if I don’t immediately leap into Representative Stefanik’s arms and cry out, “My hero!”1
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I have some experience with antisemitism. It has ranged from minor but irritating (girls who wouldn’t date me, although that may have been a convenient excuse) to downright scary (a cross being burned on the lawn of my synagogue). For the most part, my religion has not been a problem in my life, certainly not the way it was for my father’s generation, where higher education institutions like Harvard had quotas limiting the number of Jews they would admit, or my grandfather’s generation, who experienced the lynching of Leo Frank.
However, the past few years and the past two months in particular have been a bit alarming. My state GOP nominated a candidate with ties to Nazi haven Gab and its conspiracy theorist CEO. The likely Republican nominee for President hosted Holocaust denier Nick Fuentes and anti-semitism spewing Kanye West at his Florida resort. Just up the road, 11 people were murdered at the Tree of Life synagogue by a replacement-theory conspiracy nut.
But we have also now seen a turn toward anti-semitism by the Far Left. Denial over the horrific events of October 7. Ripping down of posters of kidnapping victims. Harassment of students for being Jewish. Chants of “From the River to the Sea”, which has genocidal implications.2 I understand protesting against Israel’s current actions in Palestine. But a lot of this started not when Israel went into Gaza but after Hamas’ attack before the bodies were even cold. That tells me there is a lot more going on here than just sympathy for the Palestinians.3
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So why am I not cheering for Stefanik and calling for universities to be burned down?
Because in their bumbling half-baked way, the university presidents were right. At least in the abstract.
Ken White breaks down how First Amendment law falls out on this subject:
The First Amendment protects advocacy of the moral, historical, and practical correctness of monstrous, immoral, and illegal things, unless they are:
- Conveyed as a true threat — that is a threat intended to be taken, and likely to be taken by a reasonable observer, as a sincere expression of intent to do harm to someone;
- Conveyed as incitement — that is, intended and likely to cause imminent lawless action;
- Part of a pattern of harassment — that is, directed to someone under protected circumstances (such as an employee or student) and meeting a stringent test for harassment, described below.
Private universities are not bound by the First Amendment and so there is no obligation to stick the above. But notice it comports quite well with what the university presidents were saying: calling for genocide is protected; telling someone you’re going to kill them is not. Saying you wish all Jews were dead in a heated argument is protected, projecting it onto the side of Jewish dorm is not.
David Lat, in a more restrained piece than Ken’s, basically agrees with the overall thrust, with concurring opinions from Nadine Strossen and Eugene Volokh, staunch First Amendment advocates from different parts of the political spectrum. He points to anti-transgender commentary that is now floating around many conservative campus groups as a parallel. Should that be banned? Many of the conservatives cheering Stefanik would be apoplectic if it were.
To be clear, I reject this intellectual end-run around free speech, whether deployed on behalf of Jewish people or transgender people. Tolerance demands… tolerance, including of the most vile, reprehensible opinions known to man.
However, there is one caveat to the above and that is hypocrisy. In the abstract, the university presidents are right. A commitment to free speech means that, unless you are making specific threats or harassing people, you should be able to engage in vile speech.4 But they have not always stuck to that.
David French has been on the frontline of fights over campus censorship and is more than happy to point out how often these universities have flipped to the censorship side of this argument when it has been convenient:
For decades now, we’ve watched as campus administrators from coast to coast have constructed a comprehensive web of policies and practices intended to suppress so-called hate speech and to support students who find themselves distressed by speech they find offensive.
The result has been a network of speech codes, bias response teams, safe spaces and glossaries of microaggressions that are all designed to protect students from alleged emotional harm. But not all students. When, as a student at Harvard Law School, I was booed and hissed and told to “go die” for articulating pro-life or other conservative views, exactly zero administrators cared about my feelings.
…
The rule cannot be that Jews must endure free speech at its most painful while favored campus constituencies enjoy the warmth of college administrators and the protection of campus speech codes. The status quo is intolerable.
The truth is that Harvard’s commitment to free inquiry is inconsistent, at best. Last year, Harvard disinvited feminist philosopher Devin Buckley for comments critical of transgender ideology. In 2021, pressured by student activists, Harvard canceled a course on innovative police tactics. In 2020, political science instructor David Kane was canned after inviting renowned social scientist Charles Murray, author of the controversial The Bell Curve, to speak to his class. Harvard admitted Kyle Kashuv, the only conservative to emerge among the Parkland activists, and then revoked his offer for comments he’d made regarding race. Heck, in 2021, Harvard ordered students to remove a possibly “offensive” Nicki Minaj flag.
And of course, this wouldn’t be a real campus speech issue if Andrew Sullivan didn’t weigh in:
In the hearings, President Gay actually said, with a straight face, that “we embrace a commitment to free expression even of views that are objectionable, offensive, hateful.” This is the president whose university mandates all students attend a Title IX training session where they are told that “fatphobia” and “cisheterosexism” are forms of “violence,” and that “using the wrong pronouns” constitutes “abuse.” This is the same president who engineered the ouster of a law professor, Ronald Sullivan, simply because he represented a client, of whom Gay and students (rightly but irrelevantly) disapproved, Harvey Weinstein.
This is the same president who watched a brilliant and popular professor, Carole Hooven, be effectively hounded out of her position after a public shaming campaign by one of her department’s DEI enforcers, and a mob of teaching fellows, because Hooven dared to state on television that biological sex is binary. This is the president of a university where a grand total of 1.46 percent of faculty call themselves “conservative” and 82 percent call themselves “liberal” or “very liberal.” This is the president of a university which ranked 248th out of 248 colleges this year on free speech (and Penn was the 247th), according to the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. Harvard is a place where free expression goes to die.
(One point to clarify as I re-read that: being against chosen pronouns in the abstract is fine. But misgendering someone repeatedly to their face might constitute harassment.)
To their credit, the men aren’t calling for these schools to censor anyone; they’re just pointing out that the commitment to free speech is inconsistent, context-dependent and heavily burdened by ideology. And it should not be any of those things. The same policies should apply to conservatives and liberals, to progressive and populists, to anti-Semites and anti-LGBT bigots. We should be a nation of David Goldbergers, defending the free speech rights of all, even those who want us dead.
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In the end, the Nazis didn’t march on Skokie. The court cases cleared the path for them to follow their original plan to march in Chicago where they disappeared into history. The residents of Skokie built a Holocaust museum where the Nazis had intended to march. And today, the American Nazi Party is mostly known for the Supreme Court case and boasts fewer members than a well-funded African-American Studies Department. In the end, the best solution was to let people see just how vile, stupid and ignorant the NSPA was. There was no need to cancel them; they cancelled themselves.
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To put my cards on the table: I believe not just in free speech but in, as FIRE President Greg Lukianoff describes, a culture of free speech. That is, one that welcomes open expression and debate even in parts of society not controlled by government and therefore not necessarily bound by the First Amendment. I believe in the right of Nazis to march. I believe in the right of the KKK to spew bigotry. I believe in the right of overeducated white kids to chant “From the River to the Sea” and think that makes them cool. And I think our society would be better and higher education specifically would be better if the leaders of our most prestigious universities embraced that ethic rather than trying to do a selective tap dance around it to appease campus activists.
To put it even more bluntly: I would rather have literal Nazis on the student quad than have University presidents pick and choose what speech is acceptable and what speech shall be banned. If those students choose to march in front of a Jewish fraternity or besiege the campus Hillel or march into my office, that’s different. That’s harassment and universities have a plethora of rules to deal with that. But we should always err on the side of free speech when we can. Scream into the winds of history, monsters. And let those winds carry you into obscurity just as they once did to the Illinois Nazis.
I believe this is what the university Presidents were trying to say. But their message was undermined by their own garbling, their inconsistent history on free speech and, to be fair, Stefanik taking advantage of the situation to demand a yes-no answer to a question that doesn’t actually have a yes-no answer.
And when it comes to criticism of the university presidents, that is the gripping hand. If you can be humiliated and called out by an intellectual bantamweight like Stefanik, maybe you shouldn’t be the public face of the university. I have no ill will toward any of these women, who seem to be nice enough people and are popular on their campuses. But the present moment seems to demand more than they are capable of delivering. I hope they can fix that while in their current positions. But it’s hard to blame alumni, students, donors and faculty who think that someone else would be better in that role.
- Metaphorically, of course. Stefanik couldn’t hold my weight. Ernst maybe, but not Stefanik.
- Some people have tried to claim this is not what it means and it seems like many of the people chanting it don’t know. I would submit, however, that if your slogan can be reasonably interpreted as a call to cleanse seven million Jews from Israel and establish an Islamic state, which is what Hamas means by it … maybe it’s time for a different slogan.
- It is also noteworthy that the protesters never hold the Arab nations accountable for their actions with regard to the Palestinians. Jordan occupied much of what supposed to be Palestine for decades. Egypt not only maintains a blockade of Gaza, but has engaged in military actions in response to terrorist attacks. They even flooded Gazan tunnels with seawater and raw sewage to stop their use, an action that has been called ‘environmental terrorism’ when Israel has even considered it. Assad has bombed and murdered Palestinian refugees for the sheer hell of it. The double standard is striking.
- We’ll table, for the moment, what does and does not constitute calling for genocide. I will note however, that Stefanik herself has feet of clay on this subject.
Yeah, the problem for me isn’t what the university presidents argued in the abstract.
It’s after years of silence being violence, fatphobia being violence, and “freeze peach”, seeing a fumbling speech about the importance of “free speech” being given after literal anti-semitism doesn’t make me think “oh, they’re wandering back to what I believe” as much as it makes me think “they got in trouble according to their own ruleset and now they’re asking for my help to cover for them and keep them from being punished according to their own ruleset… so they’re appealing to me for mine.”
Do I have any reason to believe that my ruleset will be kept around after this all blows over?
Because, lemme tell ya, from where I sit it sure as hell looks like the second (AND I MEAN THE FREAKING SECOND) this blows over, they’ll go back to the whole “freeze peach” thing.
So if they want my opinion long enough for me to say “I believe in a culture of free speech” but then turn off the microphones and say “the time for discussion is over and now we should get back to business”, I’m good with letting someone else have a turn at the mic first.
“Lemme know when you want to discuss the whole ‘culture of free speech’ thing.”
“But I need your help for some temporary advantage!”
“Yeah. I’m kinda busy. I’d be willing to drop what I’m doing for a chance at a real discussion, though.”
“BUT I NEED YOUR HELP FOR SOME TEMPORARY ADVANTAGE!”
“Yeah. I’m kinda busy.”Report
It is rather interesting how yet again Islam is the rock that midwit Internet social-justice movements founder upon.
“this particular thing that we would criticise is strongly correlated with a specific nonwhite demographic, how do we criticise it without implying that demographic has a morally-lesser culture” wrecked Internet Atheism, and now it looks like maybe it’ll wreck Internet Antiracism as people try (and fail) to figure out how to say that Antisemitism Is Bad without addressing the fact that it’s not white people doing the Antisemitism.Report
Facts are the eternal bane of pithy, totalizing theories of the world.Report
The difficulty with discussions of free speech is illustrated by the call for a “culture of free speech” and then the “tabling for the moment, what does and does not constitute calling for genocide.”
This is exactly the grinding point where the two ideas collide. Where an abstract idea shades into direct threat, where opinion slides into defamation.
Does a “culture of free speech” also demand a culture of tolerance?
Are lies tolerated in this culture of free speech?
In the call to “always err on the side of free speech when we can”, the last clause is the gaping hole which is difficult to frame exactly.
What also is missing from this discussion is whether freedom of association works with the culture of free speech.
Can a university pick and choose which opinions are invited to speak? Which are given honor and privilege?
“Free speech” is only a platitude unless it comes down off the pedestal of abstraction and grapples with the difficult and messy reality of how liberalism handles illiberalism.Report
“Just, for the sake of argument, hear me out. I’ve looked at the whole Israel/Palestine thing and I don’t see an answer to the problem that doesn’t involve destroying Gaza and scattering the majority of the current inhabitants *OR* destroying Israel and scattering the majority of the current inhabitants. Both of these answers meet the UN’s definition of ‘genocide’. But ‘genocide’ would be a better long-term answer than just doing this every 5 years for the next century. Fewer people will die and there will be less conflict after. We just have to pick which side will do more good for humanity over the next century or so.”
Now.
Do you think that the above discussion is beyond the pale to the point where the person who said it should be considered anathema and the points raised should be summarily waved away without discussion?Report
It’s an example of such astonishing poor reasoning and moral vacuity that it should be anathema.
Fortunately no one I know of is making it so we can ignore it.Report
Well, keep it up. Maybe we can make stuff like “antizionism is officially off the table” be officially on the table.Report
Considered anathema by whom and with what consequence? Whether people want to engage in discussion of unusual ideas is their business; nobody is obliged to discuss anything with anyone unless they are part of an institution that creates such obligations.Report
Considered anathema by whom and with what consequence?
Well, Chip has already answered that it should be.
So I’m guessing by people like him.
He could probably answer what the consequences would be.
nobody is obliged to discuss anything with anyone unless they are part of an institution that creates such obligations.
Is this particular topic so far out there that it wouldn’t fall under free speech protections within the institutions that have those obligations?Report
1. There you go again, answering a question about what you mean by laying things off on someone else. That will go on my next edition of the Jaybird bingo card.
2. Depends on the rules of the institution.Report
CJ, my opinion is that we should be able to broach that topic. Like, it’s important that it can be made so that it can be argued against.
So if you want examples of who considers it anathema, we already have people who have argued that it is such. People like that. They’re not theoretical.
As for what consequences, I’d probably say “look at the last part of my question” where I said “and the points raised should be summarily waved away without discussion”.
If that answer doesn’t satisfy you, I’d say you can ask Chip what consequences he’d think are appropriate.
Because he exists and is not a theoretical person.
Depends on the rules of the institution.
Man, we pivoted from “obligations” to “rules” pretty quickly there.Report
I didn’t ask your opinion on the right answer to your question, I asked for the meaning of your question. I’ll wait.Report
I gave it. It was contained in the part after I said “and” in my original question.Report
I’ve looked very hard. It’s not there. Try again.Report
Considered anathema by whom and with what consequence?
People like Chip.
The points raised should be summarily waved away without discussion.
Does that answer your question?
What additional clarification do you need if it does not?Report
Well, let’s see if we can put some actual content into this.
Obviously, in a more-or-less free society like ours a person can make this argument — somewhere — and not suffer anything more than the usual consequences for saying stupid s**t. He will not go to jail, unless he trespasses on someone else’s property to make his argument or screams it in the face of some Jew or Arab in a genuinely threatening manner. Maybe he will lose his job, depending on whether he is a public or private employee and the laws of different states. So what does it mean that it is “considered anathema”? That people don’t like it? They don’t have to. They do have to put up with it in the sense that they can’t, generally, throw the arguer into the slammer, but they are under no obligation to treat the arguer with any particular respect. They can ignore him. They can summarily wave him away without discussion no matter how insistently he bawls”DEBATE ME, BRO.”
Maybe he belongs to a debating society that, by its own rules, obliges itself to debate whatever proposition some member puts up, but people in general, and institutions in general, don’t have to provide a forum or pay any attention to him whatsoever.
And while it is important that our society allows him to say his piece, again, with no consequence other than the usual consequences for saying stupid s**t, it is not important at all that he, in particular, say it or that someone who would rather not be bothered take up the task of refuting it. A crackpot creationist can babble all he wants and competent scientists, who have other things to do with their time, don’t have to tear themselves away from their day jobs just because Someone Is Wrong On The Internet.
So what, if anything, is your point?Report
So what, if anything, is your point?
It was intended to set up me giving my opinion on the right answer to my question.Report
Of course we can’t tell whether your answer to your question is right until we know what your question means, but that train has stalled out on the tracks.
If all you’re saying is that somebody ought to be free to make this argument somewhere and not suffer any consequences other than the normal consequences for saying stupid s**t and that if somebody is inclined to respond that’s a good thing, you could have said so up front in plain English and saved everyone a lot of time.Report
“If all you’re saying is that somebody ought to be free to make this argument somewhere and not suffer any consequences other than the normal consequences for saying stupid s**t and that if somebody is inclined to respond that’s a good thing, you could have said so up front in plain English and saved everyone a lot of time.”
(he did say that)Report
if this is indeed the assertion:
“somebody ought to be free to make this argument somewhere and not suffer any consequences other than the normal consequences for saying stupid s**t ”
then it doesn’t answer the question but just shifts the question to “What are the acceptable social, legal, and professional consequences of saying stupid and offensive stuff?”Report
“it doesn’t answer the question but just shifts the question to “What are the acceptable social, legal, and professional consequences of saying stupid and offensive stuff?””
So your answer to:
“Do you think that the above discussion is beyond the pale to the point where the person who said it should be considered anathema and the points raised should be summarily waved away without discussion?”
…is “yes, I do”?
Was that really so hard to just say?Report
Allow me to quote myself, again, bolded for clarity:
“It’s an example of such astonishing poor reasoning and moral vacuity that it should be anathema.”
Yes, I do think that. And I’m in favor of a broad range of social, legal, and professional consequences such as firing, shunning, deplatforming and (gasp) canceling.
Now I toss the question to you guys:
What SHOULD BE the acceptable social, legal, and professional consequences of saying stupid and offensive stuff?”Report
You miss the point, DD. Jaybird has this habit of saying what he seems to think are provocative, gnomic, and edgy things that are really just obscure. Then someone comes along and asks him what he means. After a lot of hopping around, often involving him trying to palm off the responsibility for his meaning on someone else, we eventually get, after lots of pulling and hauling, some banality so boring that if asserted up front in plain English almost nobody would have bothered to respond.
Of course that would make things quieter around here.Report
“Jaybird has this habit of saying what he seems to think are provocative, gnomic, and edgy things that are really just obscure. ”
(they’re not obscure. you’re just dumb.)Report
Now that’s the kind of quality commentary we look forward to around here.Report
Ok since you are now making an assertion:
“that we should be able to broach that topic”
Now you get to defend it.
Why, exactly, should we be able to broach discussions of genocide?Report
I talked about that after I said that we should be able to broach it where I said “Like, it’s important that it can be made so that it can be argued against.”Report
But still allowed?
So like, the argument:
“There can be no peace until we round up people like Lee, Saul, and Michael Siegel and incinerate them and their children”
is an argument which should be broached so as to be argued against?Report
The argument “Israel is justified in what it is doing to Gaza and we should not have a ceasefire” sure as hell seems to be out there.
You may be aware that people are dying in Gaza. Some of the deaths involve fire.
The argument that “you shouldn’t be able to make those arguments” sure as heck seem to have been resolved on that side of the debate.
“Was October 7th justified?” is a debate that might be worth having.
If only to hammer out what “decolonization” looks like. What Fanon means in practice.
I mean, I can understand not wanting to know if these conversations are happening and being content with them just not happening within earshot.
But I would rather they take place in public where they can be argued against.
Who knows? Maybe one or two of the counter-arguments are persuasive enough to change somebody’s mind.Report
You’re answering a question I never asked.
I asked you to defend your assertion.
All you’re saying is “People are asserting it”.
I’m just trying to clarify that your justification is indeed, “So as to argue against it”
Can you name any assertion that should not be tolerated, so as to argue against it?Report
On a college campus?
I’m one of those people who sees “this is exactly why you’re wrong and why you will continue to be wrong” as far more devastating than a piece of paper stapled to a corkboard by a Dean.
On a college campus, anyway.Report
Do you think that the above discussion is beyond the pale to the point where the person who said it should be considered anathema and the points raised should be summarily waved away without discussion?
What is the point of answering this question?
Like, in order:
1. It’s a very bad argument. I do not think it would be useful to allocate scarce resources to addressing it on campus (by inviting a speaker to make the argument)
2. Stating it in as many terms should not be regarded as harassment, but you should not be surprised if you get angry responses (protests, letters to the editor, boos, all the copies of your free newspaper being “stolen”) if you make it in a public forumReport
As I said, it’s an astonishingly stupid argument, but so is “race realism” and group IQ assertions and yet the shunning of those who support these became a cause celebre.
It’s stupid ideas that are always the edge cases of free speech, just like unsavory criminals are always the edge cases in civil rights.
I think there is value to drawing a boundary and saying openly that certain speech is not protected.Report
I think the speech should be protected in the sense that it should be legal to say it.
But I also think it’s good to treat it as normatively bad.
And pace @jaybird, I don’t think you should be giving up the idea that some speech is normatively bad, and that people who necessarily have the discretion to choose which speech to promote should not consider normative badness when exercising that discretion, just because those people might possibly disagree with you about what speech is normatively bad and decide accordingly.Report
1. “We will not have peace until Israel is destroyed” *IS* an argument that exists out there in the wild. If you don’t address it on campus, the kids will address it on the school bus.
2. Would the angry responses be worse or as bad as the angry responses we’re currently seeing? What is the replacement-level-value of the angry responses?Report
“We will not have peace until Israel is destroyed” *IS* an argument that exists out there in the wild. If you don’t address it on campus, the kids will address it on the school bus.
Sorry, please let me amend my position:
It’s fine to address it, but you shouldn’t address it by inviting a speaker to make it.
Just like it’s fine to address the argument that the Holocaust didn’t happen in some contexts, but you shouldn’t be inviting David Duke as a speaker in the hopes that his presence will lead to it being refuted in a useful way.
Would the angry responses be worse or as bad as the angry responses we’re currently seeing?
Responses from whom?Report
Did you know that Linda Sarsour was a commencement speaker for CUNY? It was back in 2017 and so that was “sticking it to Trump” as much as to the Jews. Wait, I mean “Israelis”.
The good news: Geico dropped Sarsour as a “diversity speaker” last year.
The bad news: I don’t know that “antizionism is just like holocaust denialism” will take off. I think it won’t, actually.Report
What are you even talking about now?Report
That the speakers that you don’t want to come on campus *HAVE* *BEEN* *COMING* *ON* *CAMPUS*.
THEY HAVE BEEN INVITED.
The horse is not in the barn.
The lock on the barn door may have been stolen.Report
What point are you trying to actually make here?
That CUNY doesn’t consult me when they decide what commencement speakers to invite?
Sure, granted.Report
Well, in the “is vs. ought” debate, the “is” is different than your “ought”.
That’s not surprising.
Thus has it always been.
The “ought” of the students and administration appears to be different than your “ought” and closer to “is” than your “ought”.
And agreeing with the students and administration on the whole “preventing particularly odious speech” thing will help their “ought” a hell of a lot more than it’ll help your “ought”.Report
Well, in the “is vs. ought” debate, the “is” is different than your “ought”.
Like, obviously.
And agreeing with the students and administration on the whole “preventing particularly odious speech” thing will help their “ought” a hell of a lot more than it’ll help your “ought”.
OK and the Second Law of Thermodynamics means I can’t build a motor that runs forever, however much I would like to.
We’re allocating limited resources. I don’t see how pretending otherwise is going to help me see those resources allocated in a manner I would prefer.Report
I think the David Duke hypothetical illustrates just how far off the rails we’ve gone. Regardless of what someone could in theory do, I think it’s fair to say that the value add of David Duke in an educational environment is pretty low, and may well be negative. The problem I see is where the David Duke hypothetical is used to subject someone like Carole Hooven to process-as-punishment and permit a complete double standard of harsh social and academic sanction, all against someone engaged in reputable, mainstream scientific research and for making statements well within what science has established about the nature of sex.
To me that says that whatever standard we ultimately get to, it can’t be the one that’s prevailing, given how inherently antithetical it is to an educational environment. Put simply if the existing approach is sanctioning normal science it is wrong to the point I don’t see how it can be salvaged.Report
I think the David Duke hypothetical illustrates just how far off the rails we’ve gone.
I think it’s pretty fishing on point when the original question @jaybird asked is how tolerant we should be of people who advocate campaigns of genocide against Jews!
What the heck else am I supposed to do with that?Report
That’s fair, and I don’t want to sound more sympathetic to actual and hypothetical instances of right wing trolling than I am.Report
how tolerant we should be of people who advocate campaigns of genocide against Jews!
At this point, we’re back to people quoting Fanon.
“How tolerant should we be of people quoting Fanon?” is a question that has already been answered.
The question that should be bugging you is “how tolerant should we be of people arguing for Israel’s right to exist?”
Make sure that you didn’t recently answer the Fanon question. It could be embarrassing if you answer those two questions too closely together.Report
dude you’re doing that thing again where I have no idea what you’re talking aboutReport
Your point being?Report
Is it a day that ends in y?Report
You are arguing as if post-colonial theory is not already dominant.
You are arguing as if Israel is not definitionally the equivalent of South Africa in these institutions calling for boycotts, divestment, and sanctions.
You are arguing as if college presidents are not arguing for free speech when questioned about people calling for Intifada and arguing for student safety under pretty much every other single “controversial” circumstance.
And arguing for odious positions to be kept away from the podium means — In Practice — keeping away Pro-Zionist speakers arguing for the right of Israel to exist.
And you will be using your limited resources to argue why you don’t interpret “from the river to the sea” as a call for peaceful co-existence tomorrow rather than using them oh-so-judiciously today.Report
And you will be using your limited resources to argue why you don’t interpret “from the river to the sea” as a call for peaceful co-existence tomorrow rather than using them oh-so-judiciously today.
That seems like a better plan then just feeding the rats to the cats and the cats to the rats and then being extremely surprised when I do not, in fact, get the cat skins for nothing.Report
Something for nothing, sadly, turned out to be a pipe dream.
Let’s see where judicious husbandry of limited resources gets us.Report
I think conflating questions about where campus protest shades into harassment and questions about when/how it’s appropriate to disinvite featured speakers as a single question about “culture of free speech” is going to be a recipe for confusion.
There are elements of discretion in terms of what speakers should be hosted by the university that simply won’t apply to how to handle campus protesters, who don’t need and shouldn’t need any sort of official support from the administration , but hosting a wide range of speakers is critical to the university’s core mission of fostering open inquiry and debate in a way that letting students chant “Intifada” just isn’t.Report
A good observation..
Protest is normally done by those who are outside the boundaries whereas speaking engagements are gifted to those within.Report
Yeah. I’ll also concede up front that sometimes the protests on campus really do get tacit (or even explicit) administration support and solicitude, and you can probably build a solid case for hypocrisy on top of that.
I just haven’t seen it yet.
On a similar note, I think @lee-esq mentioned students suing U Penn yesterday about not handling complaints of anti-semitism appropriately. My priors are
1. they probably have a case
2. there probably really was a double standard where other forms of bigotry were treated more seriously than anti-semitism
But just because the oranges are hypocritical doesn’t mean you can prove it by comparing them to apples.Report
Here is a local newspaper article about it:
https://www.thedp.com/article/2023/12/penn-students-antisemitism-lawsuit#:~:text=Two%20Penn%20students%20sue%20University%2C%20alleging%20insufficient%20response%20to%20antisemitism,-By%20Katie%20Bartlett&text=Two%20Penn%20students%20filed%20a,responded%20to%20antisemitism%20on%20campus.
Here is the complaint:
https://www.kasowitz.com/media/focjlca0/university-of-pennsylvania-complaint.pdfReport
Kasowitz Benson are a corporate firm. This is normally not in their lane. I hope they don’t have Trumpy connections.Report
They have had them in the past. I don’t know if they still do; they like to get paid, after all.Report
I suspect that most firms that handle this sort of thing would not want to handle a suit over Civil Rights violations from anti-Semitism because reasons.Report
The Free Speech Warrior’s always end up being the worst. Apparently tomorrow the House is voting on telling Hahvahd and MIT to fire their presidents. Very very free speechy. Bad faith cynical uses of a great idea always make things worse. Granted the uni’s have not exactly been stellar in their defense or explanation of what free speech means to their schools and how to make their policies work fairly and well.
It would behoove people like uni prez’s and other people who might be targeted by FSW’s to learn how to speak to non PhD’s and to master simple direct language. My god, they’ve all prob read Orwell……what did he say about language?Report
Do institutions that receive Federal Funds have Federal Obligations?
If they fail to meet these obligations, is that remediable?
When is an obligation not an obligation?Report
Lol. I’d be fine with saying that if you take Fed dollars then you have to follow the Big C. Apply it to all the schools, fine and dandy. The Uni’s should do better even if only to not be so easily f’d up by a cynical FSW.
I think it’s redeemable when you get 10 punches on your Subway free sandwich card.
More seriously free speech is a super important value. Free Speech Culture is a good thing though WTH does that phrase mean. But it has to be more then just chest pounding about FS. How live together in communities needs more then just free speech even if that is a vital part to the kind of communities Americans, imho, should want.Report
Free Speech Culture is a good thing though WTH does that phrase mean.
If I had to put it in a nutshell, I’d say that the quote generally misattributed to Voltaire covers most of the bases: “I wholly disapprove of what you say—and will defend to the death your right to say it.”Report
Defending someone’s right to say something doesn’t entail inviting them to say it in your lecture hallReport
What if a different student group invites them?
Because a different student group invited them.Report
Then you and a few hundred of your closest friends should occupy all the seats in the lecture hall, and when they stand to deliver their lecture, stand up, turn your backs, and leave.
Right?Report
I completely agree with that quote. Nazi sh*tbags have a right to say what they want. But that isn’t where FS stops. I can tell the Nazi he’s bad, i can tell other people the Nazi is bad, I can avoid talking to the Nazi if i want and I can work at Nazism dying away. (its not but i can , within the confines of the Big C, try to help it die.
That Voltaire quote is great but like many great words it’s far from a complete discussion of what makes a community or discuss all the issues. Free Speech matters because words and ideas matter. Many of the words/ideas people utter are, imho, vile, hateful crap. How to handle vile hate in a community is a tricky task. One way is to ban trolls since they ruin on line communities. Voltaire doesn’t cover that and it’s a deeper and much harder talk.Report
If we’ve moved from asking for definitions to wanting a complete discussion, we’re moving forward.
So if the discussion is whether we should err toward “Free Speech Culture” than “Well, of course *SOME* stuff should be censored”, we have common ground.
I don’t think that anybody would have a problem with saying stuff like slander, libel, and defamation should be torts.
And, having hammered that down, we can say that “Free Speech Culture” is one of the ideals that we used to slouch toward more than we do now and that movement away from slouching toward that ideal was not to our benefit.Report
I’m slouching and ready for a FSC. Part of the problem is the loudest voices for Free Speech we hear about are cynical manipulators like elon or people who have made a lucrative career out of claiming they can’t say the things they say all the time.Report
“Those people are only pretending to support free speech because their ox is getting gored!” is one of the criticisms of the university presidents in the original essay.Report
Well OF COURSE everyone agrees that slander, libel, and defamation are not covered under Free Speech.
As are state secrets, can’t have people revealing those.
But other than slander, libel, and defamation and state secrets, nothing should be censored.
Well except for certain types of pron which can’t even be mentioned, that’s just obvious.
So except for slander, libel, and defamation state secrets and certain types of pron, nothing should be censored.
Oh, and OK, free speech doesn’t apply when you are on private property, like, you can’t just up and start handing out leaflets at a restaurant or something. I mean everybody agrees on that.
But other than slander, libel, and defamation, state secrets and certain types of pron and everywhere on private property, nothing should be censored.
Oh, and, free speech doesn’t apply to your workplace. Or anything you say in your own home or social media that can be heard or read by your boss because that’s just free enterprise am I right?
But other than slander, libel, and defamation, state secrets and certain types of pron and everywhere on private property and wherever your boss might hear you speak, nothing should be censored.
Oh, and I forgot private clubs and associations, which can eject you for anything you say or do anywhere.
But other than slander, libel, and defamation, state secrets and certain types of pron and everywhere on private property and wherever your boss might hear you speak and wherever you can be heard by your clubs and associations, nothing should be censored.
OK, well, sure, there are such things as “Time place and manner” restrictions- You can’t just shout messages through a bullhorn at 3AM. That’s just common sense.
But other than slander, libel, and defamation ,state secrets and certain types of pron and everywhere on private property and wherever your boss might hear you speak and wherever you can be heard by your clubs and associations, and subject to time place and manner restrictions, nothing should be censored.
All right, incitement to violent and true threats are not covered, duh, everyone agrees to that.
But other than slander, libel, and defamation, state secrets and certain types of pron and everywhere on private property and wherever your boss might hear you speak and wherever you can be heard by your clubs and associations, and subject to time place and manner restrictions, incitement to violence and true threats, nothing should be censored.
Oh and social media companies can censor your speech in any manner they wish, everyone knows that.
But other than slander, libel, and defamation, state secrets and certain types of pron and everywhere on private property and wherever your boss might hear you speak and wherever you can be heard by your clubs and associations, and subject to time place and manner restrictions, incitement to violence and true threats, and whatever restrictions social media companies enforce, nothing should be censored.
Well I guess speech which is covered by an NDA. You can’t have people violating their NDAs.
But other than slander, libel, and defamation, state secrets and certain types of pron and everywhere on private property and wherever your boss might hear you speak and wherever you can be heard by your clubs and associations, and subject to time place and manner restrictions, incitement to violence and true threats, and whatever restrictions social media companies enforce, and subject to restrictions by NDAs, nothing should be censored.
Oh and also if people just shun you or refuse to give you speaking engagements or columns or publish your work, and even if they pressure other people to shun you as well, that’s not really censorship.
So!
With those modest rules out of the way, yes, lets have a robust culture of free speech! Just make sure you don’t trip the moderation filter here.Report
“Also, slippery slopes are a fallacy.”
Might just be easier to argue something like “if we err, let us err on the side of Free Speech rather than erring on the side of ‘well of course we should censor stuff’.”
That would help us deal with arguments like “I think we should allow speakers that argue for the right of Israel to exist” properly.
“But what about (egregious example of something banned)?”
Is anyone arguing for that to be legalized? Would you like to argue for it?Report
I’m just trying to clarify that yes, every single person on this site, is perfectly fine with censoring or punishing some forms of speech.
Like, a LOT of forms of speech.
Even if we “err on the side of free Speech” a “culture of free speech” will still be allowing the censorship of lots and lots of speech.
Its like how I said the boundaries are only visible when they move.
For most people the boundaries I outlined above are just so familiar and seemingly self-evident we don’t even notice them.
I’m just trying to get everyone to notice the boundaries and say “Oh yeah, there are vast territories of speech which are outside the boundaries of Free Speech and which may be censored or punished and we’re cool with that.”Report
I’m just trying to clarify that yes, every single person on this site, is perfectly fine with censoring or punishing some forms of speech.
And going from there to the fallacy of the beard is not the right answer.
Sometimes a beard *IS* a beard.Report
Determining the difference between rightful censorship (A beard) and unrightful censorship (Not a beard) is precisely what citizens in a “culture of Free Speech” need to do.
I mean, in a very literal sense, the difference between the two means freedom or life in prison, and we as citizens need to make that callReport
And my argument is something like “if we err, let us err on the side of Free Speech rather than erring on the side of ‘well of course we should censor stuff’.”Report
Which gets us nowhere.
This is what I find so ridiculous about the shouting of “Free Speech!! Voltaire!!1!
There has been a national conversation for over 200 years about where the line between protected and unprotected speech, yet the Free Speech Shouters pretend like it never happened, like we are at Day One of figuring out what it means.
Like, every single question asked here on this blog has been answered- maybe rightly, maybe wrongly, but addressed and answered.
Q. Does free speech apply on college campuses?
A. Sort of! In some circumstances, but not in others! There is a court case for that, with a clear logic test for how to apply it.
Q. What is the difference between incitement and protected opinion? There is a court case for this with a clear logic test for when it applies and when it doesn’t.
Q. Does the First Amendment apply to private property?
A. Sometimes! And guess what, yes there is a court case and logic test for it.
And on, and on.
And we don’t even need to be lawyers to understand these things.
All political ideologies have developed a lengthy heuristic to proceed from first principles to street level application of what free speech means, when it applies and when it doesn’t.
Again, these logic tests and heuristics may be wrong or right, but they exist and none of them, NONE OF THEM, involve shouting Free Speech and quoting Voltaire and all of them, ALL OF THEM, accept that censorship is good, actually, in some circumstances.Report
Yes, but the question was “Free Speech Culture is a good thing though WTH does that phrase mean.”
And I understand that you want to turn that into “well, that means that I can take pictures of little kids!” and, no. That’s not what that means. “That means that I can tell the British about State Secrets!” and, no. That’s not what that means.
Does it include “The state of Israel has the right to exist”? I’d say that it does.
Does it include “The state of Israel has no right to exist”? I’d say that it does.
And when it comes to college campuses, we find ourselves in a weird place where there are college campuses that do *NOT* have a “Free Speech Culture”.
And pointing out that everybody thinks that it should be illegal to engage in tortious interference against the owners of Gibson’s Bakery doesn’t move the ball at all.
There *SHOULD* be a culture of free speech on campus.
Despite it being illegal to hand out pamphlets saying that the draft violates the 13th Amendment.Report
You can’t seem to articulate any guiding principle here, your pronouncements just seem arbitrary and scattershot.
Suppose for example, both Harvard and Liberty University both claim to have a “culture of Free Speech”?
How would you go about determining if this was true or false?
Is there some logic that other people can follow and arrive at your same conclusion?Report
Would something like Fire’s College Free Speech Rankings give us a measuring stick?Report
No because you aren’t able to explain why you or anyone else should accept FIRE’s opinion as valid.
Ironically, what with your quoting of Voltaire and inability to articulate a coherent position, you sound amazingly like those university presidents at the Congressional hearing, stammering vague platitudes about free speech in the face of genocidal rhetoric.Report
You should click the link. It discusses why it measures things the way it measures them.
You asked for guiding principles. Fire has an essay for why it measures things the way it does.
If you don’t want to accept my measuring stick, please either provide one of your own or provide a set of guidelines.
As it is, it looks like you’re playing the “I haven’t seen any evidence of X… and, by keeping my eyes tightly closed, I will continue to not see any evidence of X” game.Report
So, are these your principles, or FIRE’s?
Do you have any ideas of your own, apart from FIRE?
Or just outsourcing all your thinking to them?Report
You asked “How would you go about determining if this was true or false?”
Well, I would use an external measuring stick that covered stuff like “terminating scholars for speech”, “disinviting speakers for speech”, “revoking acceptances for speech”, and “how the college deals with students hitting speakers with the heckler’s veto”.
I mean, if we’re looking at “culture of Free Speech”, right?
And then see whether the school has multiple examples of any or all of the above.
And if you don’t like those measurements for “culture of Free Speech”, I’d ask you to provide better ones.
And if you can’t, I’d ask “what, exactly, are you asking for?”
“Do you have any ideas of your own, apart from FIRE?”
I do. If I give them, will you explain to me that they’re arbitrary?
Is there some logic that other people can follow and arrive at your same conclusion?
There is. I provided a link.
And that resulted in me being accused of outsourcing my thinking.
Do you know what you’re actually asking for or are you reaching for whatever counter-argument is handy without regard to what you were arguing a minute before?Report
I’m looking for some sort of principle that guides your decision-making.
To take just one example- You apparently feel that “disinviting speakers for speech” is a violation of a “culture of free speech”.
But you don’t offer any logic behind this pronouncement. It just hangs there as if it were self-evident.
If we lay this pronouncement alongside your enthusiastic support for the Bud Light boycott, they seem incongruous- Budweiser was specifically targeted for punishment for its speech.
Refusing to patronize a business, and refusing to invite a speaker, both for speech, are both normally justified under “freedom of association”.
You aren’t giving us any sort of thinking which can reconcile the two freedoms and help us decide which takes priority.Report
Ah, I see the problem.
You see “disinviting a speaker” as the same thing as “refusing to invite a speaker”.
I don’t see them as the same thing. I see them as meaning two very different things.
Like, I fully support Bud Light hiring whomever they want and sending out whatever advertising they want. I also fully support people who bought Bud Light last week to say something like “I’m going to buy Coors Light this week”.
They’re not incompatible.
But I am someone who sees a difference between “disinviting a speaker” and “not inviting a speaker”.Report
Again, entirely arbitrary distinctions and not connected to any larger sense of how the various freedoms interact with each other.
Like, “We refuse to invite any pro-Israel speakers” is consistent with a “culture of free speech”, but “Oh, we found out he was pro-Israel after we invited him so we rescinded the offer” is a violation of a “culture of free speech”.
What would Voltaire think of this?Report
I would put them in different categories, yes.
Hell, I would create a third. “Just not doing it.”
1. “Just not inviting someone with views X.”
2. “Making a very big deal about how you’re never going to invite someone with view X.”
3. “Inviting someone, finding out they have view X, then disinviting them.”
“Those distinctions are arbitrary!”
“Can you tell the difference between them?”
“Yes.”
“Then they’re not arbitrary.”
I’d say that those three things are on a continuum and 1 is compatible with a “Culture of Free Speech”, 2 is less compatible, 3 is one of those things where it’s evidence against there being a culture of free speech.
And so if a school does stuff like 3, that’s one of the measurements we can use to argue against a culture of free speech.
But if you want to say “BUT WE CAN USE 2 TO ARGUE AGAINST A CULTURE OF FREE SPEECH TOO!”, I suppose I’d agree.Report
You just keep repeating that there is distinction between 1 and 3, rather than justifying it.Report
There are approximately 325 million Americans that I have not invited over for dinner.
There are zero Americans that I have invited over for dinner and then told “no, you can no longer come over for dinner because I disagree with you about topic X.”
Do you understand the distinction now or is it still unclear to you?Report
Also some of these are student groups / conferences / lecturers inviting someone, then the university stepping in and disinviting him.
And in many cases, the university invites someone, then there’s a student outcry in the name of hate speech, then the university disinvites him.
Both of these cases involve dynamics that are more than simply not being invited to campus.Report
No you just repeated it for the third time.
You seem to be hanging your argument on one being passive and the other active, but that doesn’t work because #1 was specifically stated as “Refusing to invite someone because of X” which is an affirmative action.
But again, because you refuse to offer any explanation like “One is passive and the other active” there isn’t any way to know.Report
You seem to be hanging your argument on one being passive and the other active, but that doesn’t work because #1 was specifically stated as “Refusing to invite someone because of X” which is an affirmative action.
No, this is not true. Let’s look at #1 again. Let me copy and paste it:
1. “Just not inviting someone with views X.”
Now let’s look at #2:
2. “Making a very big deal about how you’re never going to invite someone with view X.”
Can you tell the difference between those two?
Can you tell the difference between “passive” and “active”?Report
You’re shifting the goalposts.
““refusing to invite a speaker”.”
These are your words. You typed them.
Do you see a difference between “refusing to invite a speaker”. and “Just not inviting someone with views X.”?Report
Yes. I do.
Do you not see the difference between those two?
I can restate them both with references to “inviting people over to dinner” again, if it might help.Report
If they are different, then lets restate:
1. Refusing to invite someone with views X;
2. Inviting, then disinviting someone with views X.
You still can’t seem to explain why one of these is in conformance with a culture of free speech, and the other not.Report
So you want to see if I make distinctions between my definitions of #2 that I gave above and my #3 that I gave above?
I did.
I wrote about it, even.Report
I know that YOU make a distinction, but it isn’t clear why.
You just keep repeating that they are different.Report
They are qualitatively different.
In the former case, no invitation was extended and a big deal is being made about how none will be.
In the latter case, an invitation was extended and then it was revoked.
These two things *ARE* different.
If you want to say “WELL THEY ARE BOTH OBVIOUSLY BAD!”, I’d agree… but I’d say that one is worse and the worse one is the latter one.
And, get this, the latter is even measurable.
You can measure it, put it in a report, and use it as an example for why Harvard isn’t very good at the whole “culture of Free Speech” thing.
I mean, you get how both are not good examples of the whole “culture of Free Speech” thing, right?Report
Well then if they are both violations of a culture of free speech, then this brings us right back up to my question above:
You feel that “disinviting speakers for speech” and “refusing to invite” are both violations of a “culture of free speech”.
But you don’t offer any logic behind this pronouncement. It just hangs there as if it were self-evident.
If we lay this pronouncement alongside your enthusiastic support for the Bud Light boycott, they seem incongruous- Budweiser was specifically targeted for punishment for its speech.
Refusing to patronize a business, and refusing to invite a speaker, both for speech, are both normally justified under “freedom of association”.
You aren’t giving us any sort of thinking which can reconcile the two freedoms and help us decide which takes priority.Report
Chip, I also made distinctions between “just not doing something” and “making a big deal out of deliberately not doing something”.
I continue to support people not doing things. Enthusiastically.
I can even appreciate horses not drinking when they are brought to water.Report
Both Harvard and Bud Light are examples of entities “making a big deal out of deliberately not doing something”.
So, why is “making a big deal out of deliberately not doing something” a violation of free speech principles?
Does a culture of free speech forbid someone to refuse to drink Bud Light because of their politics?
Or, does a culture of free speech allow Harvard to actively choose not to invite conservative speakers, but only if they don’t make a big deal out of doing so?Report
No. Harvard is the one that doesn’t have a “culture of Free Speech”. Bud Light is the one that was being boycotted pretty prominently by, among others, Kid Rock.
Now if you wanted to say that neither Harvard nor Kid Rock are particularly good on Free Speech, I suppose I’d agree.
Did you see that Kid Rock said that he’s ended his boycott?
Does that improve Kid Rock’s stance or no?
Harvard’s sure as hell hasn’t improved.
There’s a measuring stick for it and everything.Report
You’re avoiding the question.
OK so both the Bud Light boycott and Harvard speaker disinvites were infringements of the culture of free speech.
But, and I have asked this many times now, WHY?
Because they “made a big deal out of it”?
Meaning, if they didn’t “make a big deal out of it”, it would not be an infringement?Report
“You’re avoiding the question.”
“I’m trying to wander back to the topic of how to measure whether a college campus can be said to be good on the whole ‘culture of Free Speech’ thing and whether the source I provided can back up that Harvard isn’t good at it.”
“WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE NOT BUYING BUD LIGHT?”Report
I know you are trying to wander which is why I keep saying you aren’t able (or willing) to articulate any sort of principle of what constitutes a “culture of free speech” wth it even means.
Without some sort of principle, you can’t “measure” a commitment to free speech because as you keep repeating, it has something to do with whether you “make a big deal” out of it or not or maybe its the difference between actively choosing to not invite, versus disinviting but in either case it doesn’t have any logical structure to it.
A principle sets out some idea of what is a “compelling interest” which is a phrase courts use to help them sift through competing claims of freedom.
Like, is a universities mission to promulgate the search for truth a compelling interest which overrides a student club’s desire to invite a speaker? Or is the student’s freedom to speak more of a compelling interest?
Someone who has thought out a series of principles can answer this.
You can’t because we don’t know what you hold as a priority of interests other than “Well, FIRE sez so”.Report
I know you are trying to wander which is why I keep saying you aren’t able (or willing) to articulate any sort of principle of what constitutes a “culture of free speech” wth it even means.
In a nutshell? I think I can throw something together.
Without some sort of principle, you can’t “measure” a commitment to free speech because as you keep repeating, it has something to do with whether you “make a big deal” out of it or not or maybe its the difference between actively choosing to not invite, versus disinviting but in either case it doesn’t have any logical structure to it.
It’s qualitative. It’s, like, a gradient rather than a binary.
You can be “more” or “less” and acts can be “more” or “less” and some acts can be “worse” or “better”.
A principle sets out some idea of what is a “compelling interest” which is a phrase courts use to help them sift through competing claims of freedom.
Are we doing legal definitions now?
I suppose I could dig around and see if there’s any legal history for the whole “free speech on campus” thing…
Like, is a universities mission to promulgate the search for truth a compelling interest which overrides a student club’s desire to invite a speaker? Or is the student’s freedom to speak more of a compelling interest?
I’m pretty sure that this has been covered in Oscar’s original essay.
Someone who has thought out a series of principles can answer this.
You can’t because we don’t know what you hold as a priority of interests other than “Well, FIRE sez so”.
I’ve said what I’ve said ad nauseum. You, by comparison, have gotten statements of facts incorrect. Like, you’ve gotten quotes from *ME* incorrect despite my comments being *RIGHT THERE*.
But if you want an articulation of why Harvard is bad at Free Speech, there’s an entire essay (with examples!) that I’ve linked to.
Not arbitrary. Not focusing on other freedoms. Just talking about the whole “culture of Free Speech” thing.
And how Harvard is bad at it.Report
I rest my case.Report
Well nuts. I had a devastatingly brilliant reply that isnt’ here. Welp, guess i’ll agree with Pillsy below.
Vol’s quote is great but far from a complete discussion. Nazi sh*tbags have a right to speak and i’ll defend that right. And i’ll hope and work towards Nazism dying away as a terrible ideology that only brings death and hate.Report
There is literally no one anywhere who believes Voltaires quote.
There are vast categories of speech which result in penalties ranging from being fired to being imprisoned and everyone, without exception approves of this.Report
No it’s a good quote. But it’s just one little quote, a few words. It’s the start of a debate. I want every weirdo, nutjob and loon to be able to say what they want unless it’a True Threat, harassment, libel, etc. It’s great to have the right to say whatever damn thing we want. I’m also free to say they are bad, never listen to them and hope/work at their ideologies dying out.Report
UNLESS appears nowhere in Voltaire’s quote, and its the reason why invoking it is so stupid.
The very central question we are all grappling with here, is what sort of stuff fits under the UNLESS umbrella.
We know that there exists such a form of speech as incitement and that it too, fits under the UNLESS umbrella of types of speech which can rightfully be suppressed or punished.Report
This was a great piece, Michael. To me, beyond the public/private distinctions, and beyond the exact reach of non-discrimination and harassment rules, lies a core question of what sort of society we want to be, one that on the edge cases errs on the side of control and infantilizing, or one where people can navigate tough topics and hurt feelings like adults.Report
It’s extremely fair to demand prestigious institutions of higher learning hold themselves to an exquisitely high standard on this front, and set an example for the rest of us that we can emulate, while training the future generation of academics, executives, and political leaders how to navigate it.
And despite my general anti-anti-SJ knee jerks, it’s obvious they’ve been doing a pretty crap job.
Nonetheless, when you look at the kind of society we actually are, it really isn’t one where people navigate tough topics and hurt feelings like adults, and a lot of the people (very definitely not including you or Dr Siegel, but definitely including Elise Stefanik) who are first in line to complain about university administrators have whole freaking redwood forests in their eyes.Report
Obviously I have a number of philosophical disagreements with the SJ stuff.
My first, practical reaction has always been to say it’s a huge, unforced PR victory to the most reactionary forces in our society that doesn’t net much return in terms of substantive victories for liberalism or progressivism. As far as I can tell all its really done is undermine public faith in real progressive achievements in public education, higher ed, and public health, as well as to turn progressive institutions into ineffectual circular firing squads.
It has never been lost on me that, for example, Chris Rufo came out of the same organization that made a massive, well funded effort trying to get public schools to teach children
in science class that the complexity of the eyeball was evidence against well established evolutionary science. These are not people who share my vision of how education (or much of anything) should operate.Report
I think the underlying legal point of the Skokie march was that people just shouldn’t go to the march. It was scheduled for a date and time, so it would be easy to avoid. I don’t think it captures this issues on a college campus, particularly ones receiving federal money and thus have an affirmative obligation to respond to anti-Jewish sentiment under anti-discrimination laws. A march is a forum that local governments permit, and thus must not-discriminate based upon view-points. Colleges are places of higher learning that have a role under civil rights law to be available regardless of race and ethnicity. The horrific speech that was protected by the First Amendment in Brandenburg v. Ohio doesn’t mean that a University would still not have obligations to address such speech if it happened on campus.Report
That’s also how I recall the analysis but there’s still a core constitutional question here (at least at public schools) about the reach of anti-discrimination statutes. It seems to me that from the legal side, most of the trouble arises from various institutions interpreting those laws and certain SCOTUS decisions in ways well beyond their apparent scope, up to and including a requirement that the civil rights laws in question require suppression of mundane matters of political opinion or sanctioning those that express them.
Anyway, I don’t see how the existence of tough cases justifies the myriad bureaucratic enforcement apparatuses, bias response teams, DEI struggle sessions, etc. mentioned in the OP and linked articles. There is very much a motte and bailey component to this, where, say, the possibility of targeting a particular individual for abuse based on their racial background is used to prohibit a debate about the merits of race based affirmative action. Maybe it’s just because I went to a public university, which while far from a libertarian paradise (indeed they were in constant litigation with Lyndon LaRouche activists of all people), allowed all kind of things that would seemingly cause these SLAC and Ivy Leaguers to become whimpering puddles. For most of these controversies there’s just no harm that the law would recognize, which to me means there isn’t enough for a debate at all, nor any justification for trying to shut people up.Report
Well, there has been actual violence at college campuses. One of my alma matters has had violence, apparently the campus is decorated in “from the river to the sea” graffiti, and the feds have launched a civil rights investigation. I think the situation is well beyond the charge of Gen Z snowflakes. The Israel/Palestinian conflict is seen as existential to the actual participants, and through variety of connections (ethnic, religious, immigrant, shared sense of liberation struggle, etc.), non-participants on the other side of the world are treating the situation as existential to one degree or other.
It’s not easy for schools to prevent a rally from turning into mob violence, but it happens. They need to be more preemptively active and perhaps put a moratorium on rallies on campus. Maybe be more active in directing the dialogue in a more productive fashion.Report
I suppose, and I certainly can understand the desire to look for avenues to lower tensions. Nevertheless speech is speech and violence is violence. Vandalism or actually physically attacking someone is a criminal matter for the police and the courts, whereas saying ‘from the river to the sea’ falls under the rule of sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. It’s apples and oranges.
I also find it all a bit rich at these places where the argument is regularly made that the United States itself is a fundamentally illegitimate enterprise. I don’t see how that’s less provocative than saying the same about some foreign country, an ocean and then some away. Both ought to be tolerated and people that can’t handle it, as well as being confronted with counter arguments, need to grow up.Report
I’ve got children in college and both have told me that people firmly on either side of the issue don’t appear to know what they’re talking about. Is there a role for education? This is from Professor Ron Hasser, Poli Sci at U.C. Berkley:
“When college students who sympathize with Palestinians chant “From the river to the sea,” do they know what they’re talking about? I hired a survey firm to poll 250 students from a variety of backgrounds across the U.S. Most said they supported the chant, some enthusiastically so (32.8%) and others to a lesser extent (53.2%).
“But only 47% of the students who embrace the slogan were able to name the river and the sea. Some of the alternative answers were the Nile and the Euphrates, the Caribbean, the Dead Sea (which is a lake) and the Atlantic. . . . .
“Would learning basic political facts about the conflict moderate students’ opinions? A Latino engineering student from a southern university reported “definitely” supporting “from the river to the sea” because “Palestinians and Israelis should live in two separate countries, side by side.” Shown on a map of the region that a Palestinian state would stretch from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, leaving no room for Israel, he downgraded his enthusiasm for the mantra to “probably not.” Of the 80 students who saw the map, 75% similarly changed their view.
“An art student from a liberal arts college in New England “probably” supported the slogan because “Palestinians and Israelis should live together in one state.” But when informed of recent polls in which most Palestinians and Israelis rejected the one-state solution, this student lost his enthusiasm. So did 41% of students in that group.
“A third group of students claimed the chant called for a Palestine to replace Israel. Sixty percent of those students reduced their support for the slogan when they learned it would entail the subjugation, expulsion or annihilation of seven million Jewish and two million Arab Israelis. Yet another 14% of students reconsidered their stance when they read that many American Jews considered the chant to be threatening, even racist. (This argument had a weaker effect on students who self-identified as progressive, despite their alleged sensitivity to offensive speech.)
“In all, after learning a handful of basic facts about the Middle East, 67.8% of students went from supporting “from the river to sea” to rejecting the mantra. These students had never seen a map of the Mideast and knew little about the region’s geography, history or demography. Those who hope to encourage extremism depend on the political ignorance of their audiences. It is time for good teachers to join the fray and combat bias with education.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/from-which-river-to-which-sea-anti-israel-protests-college-student-ignorance-a682463b?st=3x0oam85a9wlu1s&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalinkReport
There is always room for education.Report
I’ve had a long comment or short piece percolating about how slogans like “From the River to the Sea” are bad because they make it easy to build movements where well-intentioned people support awful leadership through their ambiguity, but this is something else….Report
This doesn’t surprise me at all.
Another good question would be to ask the males (that id as such) whether they joined this group of supporters because they were trying to “get with” some girl who supported this side. 🙂Report
It is probably fair to assume that 80% of the people at any given college protest have put less thought into the substance of whatever the issue than they will into what they pick to eat that night at the dining hall. I also think you’re right, that at minimum, every other male in attendance is motivated more about trying to get into the pants of a woman at the event than anything else. They’d be out there protesting against chocolate if they thought it might get them laid.Report
Yes, I recall walking past protesters to attend several speakers events at college and listening to the protesters thinking, “do they even pay attention to the news reports?” and “how is what you’re chanting have to with this speaker” Hell they even protested Mark Russell.Report
This comment is honestly one of the funniest things I have ever read, because what it actually says is ‘Israel has gotten really bad at propaganda recently, and if you give a lot of zero-information protestors that propaganda, they will turn into what previous generation thought.’
And there are a _lot_ of zero-information voters out there. We all know this.
Did those handful of facts include the Nakba? At all? You’ll notice he didn’t give a basic primer of the actual _history_ of the region. Weird.
I am firmly of the opinion that more education in this area would be good, but the fact that some large amount of people at protests are dumbasses who do not understand the issue is literally true of every political movement that exists. You can go to any of those and ask basic questions about the issue that most people will not know. That is not some magical new fact.
What actually happened here: Israeli propaganda sorta stopped working, for some reason. For everyone. Young people were not getting it…they weren’t getting any information about this, in fact.
And then Oct 7th happened, and a lot of them said ‘What the hell?’ and looked up stuff. (Some of this actually happened back in 2019, in fact, during the Great March of Return.)
And I want to emphasis. with absolutely no information about this and _starting from the beginning_ and putting it together, a bunch of those kids end up pro-Palestinian. I know people think that’s some crazy idea, but it is literally the actual thing that is happening. (And a bunch of other people got on board just like literally every political movement has worked since the beginning of time.)
When a government looks worse than the people who just killed 1400 (Sorry, uh, 1200.) people, THEY HAVE A PRETTY BIG IMAGE PROBLEM. And it is an image problem caused entirely by their own behavior and statements.
And the students go very radicalized, very quickly.
Meanwhile, the IDF is literally running a snuff channel. And I’ll bet that none of you know that. BUT THE STUDENTS DO: https://www.commondreams.org/news/deeply-sick-idf-murder-porn-channel-compared-to-horrors-of-abu-ghraib
This is the stuff that _students_ are seeing. Or like this:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-images-palestinians-stripped-blindfolded-gaza-rcna128685
This is the stuff they are seeing, images of IDF soldier destroying shops, shooting innocent people in the West Bank, there’s a fun video of IDF soldiers attacking Jerusalem _Jews_ who were protesting the war, all the stuff that makes Israel and the IDF look like complete psychopaths. This is because the IDF is comprised of untrained idiots who have spent their entire life being taught dehumanizing propaganda about Palestinians and do not understand how that looks to anyone else.
Again, this isn’t Palestinians doing this PR, although they are really good at that. This is Israel creating stuff for their home audience and _forgetting everyone can see_ and find it completely horrifying.
There are a lot of people very smugly going ‘At least we really know what’s going on.’…no, you don’t. You might know a little bit more than a dumbass at a protest, but you are not connected into actual parts of Twitter where Palestinians journalists keep reporting, but also say their goodbyes, and then later everyone learns they and their families were killed in a targeted attack, because Israel keeps killing journalists.Report
I didn’t say it in my comment above. Good piece. Thanks.Report
There are basically two issue here. The big one is that universities spent the past several years emphasizing student safety, especially of besieged minorities. Now the Jewish students feel unsafe due to some of the more extreme and outrageous tactics of Pro-Palestinian activists. The university presidents have no idea what to do because many other students feel that Jews are white and whites don’t get to complain about being unsafe unless they are women or LGBT.
The other issue is when does Pro-Palestinian activism cross the line. At Yale, a menorah was draped with a Palestinian flag. Is this legitimate protest of Israel or is it just being too in your face to Jewish students? My barber, who isn’t Jewish, put up a Hanukkah menorah in his shop, and had his windows defaced with “F**K the Jews” and some Pro-Palestinian stuff. Is this legitimate protest or mere anti-Semitic vandalism? The Pro-Palestinian activists would argue that the issue is so pressuring, taking it to any available target is important. Jews think that when anti-Zionists claim not to be anti-Semitic, they are lying because they can’t resist the urge to confront any Jew or Jewish organization or thing they can find even if it has nothing to do with Israel like a Hanukkah menorah.Report
At Yale, a menorah was draped with a Palestinian flag. Is this legitimate protest of Israel or is it just being too in your face to Jewish students?
The latter to answer your obviously rhetorical question as if it were asked in earnest.
But to follow up, I think a lot of really appalling anti-Israel stuff is less clearly anti-semitic than the impulse to take one’s anti-Israel sentiments out on random Jews in contexts that have nothing at all to do with Judaism.
Like all in all, somebody wants to fly a Palestinian flag out their dorm room window, it’s fine and if you’re offended it’s time to rub some dirt on it and walk it off.
But dropping it on a menorah?
Everybody knows what’s actually happening and it’s not about peace or liberation or anything else.Report
Everybody should know what is happening here but a lot of people like to act all innocent when people bring antics and stunts like this up.Report
It seems pretty clear cut that if Yale doesn’t want it covered it is fair for Yale to punish the person or people that covered it.Report
Everybody knows what’s actually happening and it’s not about peace or liberation or anything else.
I followed up on the story, which is reported here, and in everybody’s defense, they all acknowledged what was happening. It looks like one idiot threw the flag on the menorah, and even other protesters weren’t having it:
The incident, captured on video in a public space near the Yale campus but not on it, lasted little more than a minute, according to a participant in a pro-Palestinian rally nearby. The protester who hung the flag quickly removed it at the urging of other demonstrators.
“Get down!” the demonstrators can be heard shouting repeatedly in the video.
“That looks bad for us,” said one person in a kaffiyeh, a scarf that symbolizes Palestinian liberation. “Take it down!”
The rest of the story is people being mad about it, which is fair enough, but also that all the people (definitely including the Yale admin) are mad about it is Good, Actually.
Just ’cause some questions are hard isn’t an excuse for flubbing the easy ones.Report
Yeah, there’s a story I quoted about a month and a half ago, where a speaker at an anti-Israel protest was interrupted by someone in the audience yelling antisemitic slurs and he got tackled by _the protestors_ and basically had to be rescued from his manhandling by the police.
There are numerous incidents like this, where people do and say things like this and the protesters very loudly say ‘No. We’re not doing or saying that. Shut up, go away.’.
And I notice how quickly people complaining about the protests will hold up incidents like this, and then smoothly transition to claiming that calls for liberation are calls for violence, and pretend incidents like this are example of that violence, and it is just utterly dishonest in every possible way.Report
That was on the New Haven Green, not at Yale (though adjacent to Old Campus). City property.Report
It is not a legitimate protest. It is vandalism, and presumably antisemitic.
Who exactly is arguing that?Report