Trump Lawyers Fail to Demand a Jury Trial: Malpractice, Strategery, or Both?

Em Carpenter

Em was one of those argumentative children who was sarcastically encouraged to become a lawyer, so she did. She is a proud life-long West Virginian, and, paradoxically, a liberal. In addition to writing about society, politics and culture, she enjoys cooking, podcasts, reading, and pretending to be a runner. She will correct your grammar. You can find her on Twitter.

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55 Responses

  1. Tod Kelly says:

    All of this makes sense to me, in the same way that a lot of the post Jan 6 antics make sense.

    I suspect Trump correctly recognizes that there are no viable legal paths out of this forest; there are only viable political ones. And it will be easier to get enough people to grant you that path if you were ‘denied a jury’ rather than found guilty/liable by one.

    Alex Jones rolled similar dice when, rather than release specific documents & grant specific testimony related to the Sandy Hook cases that would have made him look both insanely liable and thoroughly detestable to a jury, he simply refused the courts demands and hoped when assessing damages a jury would assume better of him than they would if they knew everything. (And $1.5 billion or not, he might well have been right.)Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    The televising of the trial is already resulting in Discourse.

    And it’s going to get worse before it gets better.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

        Here’s Sky News:

        Report

        • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

          Right, because the UK’s version of OAN is clearly an important arbiter of what we the people should know.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

            I did not say “The UK’s version of OAN is clearly an important arbiter of what the people should know”.

            Arguing against me as if I did is to misunderstand what I said.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

              And whose fault is that?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Eh, I imagine an education system that fails to teach media literacy.

                You wouldn’t believe how many television shows are criticized for not putting the equivalent of “AND THAT’S BAD!” in flashing red letters at the bottom of the screen.

                I mean, look at the above exchange!
                “This is going to create discourse.”
                “How is it going to create discourse?”
                “Here is an example of the discourse.”
                “The source used in the example you gave is not one that I, personally, trust.”

                And we’ve moved from “X will happen” to “I don’t like the example you gave. Not because the example is not representative of the phenomenon that I asked an example of, but I mean personally.”

                “And that’s *YOUR* fault.”
                “Yeah, I’m not convinced that it is.”Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                Em’s original post is discourse. Sky News ranting about a judge being polite is not. You choosing to focus on said judge from said source is basic, not well done trolling. You don’t get to lay your choices at the feet of media education (What ever that is).Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                No, Em’s original post is commentary.

                The argument over whether the judge was just being polite or was actually signaling malicious intent is discourse.

                And it’s going to get worse before it gets better.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                That’s true by definition once you get involved.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Eh. I’m of the opinion that the discourse would exist even if I didn’t.

                Though perhaps there are some who would be better able to curate their own bubbles without me around.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                The “discourse,” such as it is, amounts to: “The trial is being televised and people will say stupid s**t.” Put that baldly, and that is the proposition you defend rather than something more consequential, the only sensible reaction is. “Yes, of course. And your point is?”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Man, if that were the question, I suppose that I’d have to say something like “I’m thinking it’s going to get dumber than we think. And that’s taking into account how I already think it’s going to be dumber than we think.”

                Rather than being stuck being asked “how do you mean people will say stupid things?” as if I were asked to provide an example.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

              You said people were discussing and it would get worst and you pointed to Sky News. Seemed I drew an accurate conclusion.Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Philip H says:

            I’ve known Justice Engoron since long before he was a judge. He has always been a pleasant person who smiles a lot.Report

            • Philip H in reply to CJColucci says:

              I’m quite sure he is. Jaybird just happens to pick the most trollish source possible to imply something nefarious since he doesn’t have much else to share, and I felt like reminding him of that.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                Oh, you believe that that was the most trollish source possible?

                Do a search for “smile for the camera” on twitter. (But don’t do it at work. A handful of, erm, content creators have found that “smile for the camera” was trending and took opportunity to ply their wares.)Report

  3. CJColucci says:

    Nice, clear explanation. One quibble. Supreme Court Justices in New York, like Justice Engoron are, at least formally, elected, not nominated. In practice, however, once the honcho’s of the borough’s Democratic Party (Manhattan in this case) wheel and deal at the judicial nominating convention and decide who will get the nomination, that is almost always the end of the matter.Report

  4. Chip Daniels says:

    There is a thing called “Trump’s Razor” which states that the most stupid possible explanation is usually the correct one.

    Since 2015 I notice that many media outlets and pundits and armchair Politics Knowers are constantly hypothesizing all sorts of 4D chess moves to Trump’s antics trying vainly to discern a deep Machiavellian strategery to the chaos, contrary to all available evidence.

    Trump didn’t ascend to power by clever devious strategy. He rose by pounding the drum of racial hatred, fear, misogyny and cultural resentment.

    These are not clever tools of strategy, but blunt hammers upon the primal lizard brain. In this way, they bypass the normal political channels which are subject to fact checking and sharp eyed rebuttal. These are entirely right brained emotional appeals which resonate with those who are also angry, resentful and fearful and looking for someone to hurt.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      They can’t help themselves. Their entire paychecks are based upon constant hypothesizing or the non-paid ones get a psychic benefit from it. Stating something that Trump is getting a bench trial because of a stupid clerical error that went unchecked and uncorrected means collapsing their entire identity as smart and analytical people. And in the worst cases, it destroys the justification for their nice paychecks.Report

    • Rick Schmidt in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Bypassing “fact checking” by being deliberately wrong is a canny strategy. Then Trump gets all the nice liberal organizations to call him a liar — and Tell the Truth.

      The truth was all he wanted in the first place, and if being a truthteller would get him any oxygen, he’d go for that instead.

      But the liberals can’t resist “being right” even when it hurts the cause.

      Trump is significantly less intelligent than Hillary or Bill Clinton, but he is a very smart operator.Report

  5. Dark Matter says:

    Bhahahahaha.

    Ahem. :Clears throat:

    BHAHahahaha!!!

    This really feels like a careless mistake. Maybe he thought he’d be President before we hit this point.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

      which wouldn’t immunize him against civil lawsuits in New York State, what with federalism being what it is. He can’t pardon himself from this either.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

        You’re not thinking dirty enough. He tells the Governor of NY to pardon him or he’ll do something nasty to them like withhold Billions of dollars of federal aid.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Dark Matter says:

          Or he loses a few hundred million in NY and gains more in the capital. It’s only money.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

          Hey, he’s already blatantly violated the _foreign_ emoluments clause, why not violate the _domestic_ one also by demanding personal favors from states for political actions? And it will be good for legal scholars too, no one remembers the domestic emolument clause even exists.Report

  6. Saul Degraw says:

    As Chip states, Trump’s Razor states that the stupidest answer is almost always the correct one with anything that involves Trump. The stupidest thing here would be a clerical error that went unnoticed and unchecked by Trump’s lawyers until it was too late. A jury trial would be perfect for Trump because as blue as New York is, it is still a large city and a jury pool is almost certainly going to contain enough unrepentant Trump worshipers to muddle things in his favor.

    But a careless mistake was made and Trump lacks his jury. The man is not a super secret genius. He does not know his goose is cooked and that he is doing this so he can rant on social media about how he was denied a jury trial.

    By god, I swear the reason Trump gets away with 99 percent of what he does is because smart people can’t resist speculating on strategy and this gives Trump and his cronies way more credit than he deserves.Report

    • Is it grounds for an appeal? I wanted a jury trial and my lawyers messed up the paperwork?Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Michael Cain says:

        I think it would be very hard to make a grounds for an appeal or even a malpractice action but the malpractice action would have a marginally higher chance of succeeding over an appeal.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Michael Cain says:

        If memory serves, Justice Scalia wrote a majority opinion in which a poor defendant whose public defender literally fell asleep during his trial was not entitled to a new trial because reasons.Report

        • But this isn’t a poor defendant; it’s the man Justice Thomas’s wife thnks is the real president.Report

        • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Some years ago, I was very interested in the “sleeping lawyer” cases. I came away suspecting that the real reason they came out the way they did was that if the sleeping lawyer had been awake and done no more while awake than the sleeping lawyer did while sleeping, the court would have ruled that the the representation was, though poor, adequate, and that would be too embarrassing to say out loud.Report

        • Brandon Berg in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          The only reference to Scalia and a sleeping defendant I could find was a 2002 case in which the Supreme Court declined to review an appellate ruling that the defendant was entitled to a new trial.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      The stupidest thing here would be a clerical error that went unnoticed and unchecked by Trump’s lawyers until it was too late.

      No, I’ve been thinking about this, and basic carelessness doesn’t quality as ‘stupidest’. You have to think narratively, if you were writing a book, what would the absolute stupidest thing that could have happened?

      Here’s where I’m putting my bets, based on what I understand from this article: Trump’s lawyers were going to respond to this, and had the response form filled out correctly.

      But Trump somehow ended up seeing the AG’s form, saw that it said he wasn’t going to have a trial by jury, and started telling anyone he was going to sue over this miscarriage of justice of being denied a trial. He demanded the lawyers draw up paperwork to sue over this, and would not listen to reason. This took so long that the deadline to respond properly expired.

      I think that’s the stupidest possible thing that could have happened, and thus probably is roughly correct. Lawyers were going to respond, Trump somehow screwed it up. Maybe he didn’t screw it up over that specific thing, that’s merely ‘the funniest’ not ‘the stupidest’, but it is somehow his fault they didn’t respond.Report

  7. Saul Degraw says:

    I feel like there is a whole genre of writing which might as well be people writing “Trump and his allies can’t be this dumb, lazy, careless, stupid, cruel, etc., can they?” And then answer that should be screamed loudly again and again is “YES, YES THEY CAN BE THIS DUMB, LAZY, CARELESS, STUPID, CRUEL, ETC.”Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      There is an entire genre of conservative influencers and thinktanks loudly screaming “YES WE WANT TO DESTROY DEMOCRACY AND INSTALL A DICTATOR!” and pundits are still searching the Iowa diners at the 4:30 early bird special looking for someone to tell them what MAGA is all about.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Following the rules is a skill and not one they have.

      Trump’s lawyers, by definition, need to be willing to work with Trump and that limits the talent pool something serious.Report

  8. Saul Degraw says:

    There is also an issue that NY’s attorney general is seeking more than monetary damages, she is seeking declaratory/injunctive relief that requires Trump take specific actions and New York law does not allow jury trials for that kind of relief.Report

  9. trial and error

    Very nice.Report

  10. LeeEsq says:

    Definitely incompetent lawyering in this case.Report

  11. Dark Matter says:

    Just saw an interesting take on the details of all this.

    Some internet lawyer compared what Trump was doing to a Ponzi scheme, just with Banks.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

      Its not actually inaccurate.Report

    • North in reply to Dark Matter says:

      As in… Bank #1: give me X loan at generous interest rates and fees. I’ll pay it all back by getting a new loan from bank #2. Bank #2: give me X+1 loan at generous interest rates and fees. I’ll pay it all back by getting a new loan from bank #3. Continue cycle and everyone wins except for Bank #X who agrees and Trumps unable to find a new bank to join the scheme?Report

      • Michael Cain in reply to North says:

        When I worked in the cable TV industry in the 1990s, it was standard practice to roll loans over. Although it was usually done with the same bank. There was no real intent to ever pay the loan off. The standard financial metric used to compare things from year to year was EBIDA (earnings before interest, depreciation, and amortization).

        To get into Ponzi scheme territory, you would have to be borrowing to make the interest payments. Trump may or may not be doing that. The cable companies weren’t; interest was a cost of doing business and was paid out of current income.Report

        • North in reply to Michael Cain says:

          Indeed, I’d dare to say it’s an entirely legit and normal business practice to manage debt that way. There has to be more to it considering that Trump had flat out run out of ordinary financial institutions that were willing to lend to him except Deutsche Bank by the time he ran in ’16. Perhaps his myriad fraudulent and failed businesses burned too many fingers as they went down.Report

        • J_A in reply to Michael Cain says:

          There are two types of companies, which are financed completely differently. Most companies in real life are a mixture of the two types, but some pure examples do exist.

          The first type are eternal companies, whose life is unlimited (not unlimited in a corporate sense -unlimited in the sense that they are [almost] free of obsolesce risk and therefore will be operating forever. Utilities are this kind of company. They show vegetative growth (as in customers mate and give birth to new customers that, once they reach maturity, sign their own contract with the utility). Utilities never pay their loans because they never lose customers or revenue. Quite the opposite, they grow permanently at a moderate but predictable rate, and keep getting new loans to serve the new customers. Banks love these companies because they are very low risk.

          (As an aside, countries and governments are like this: taxpayers mate and have little future taxpayers. They never run out of a revenue source, so there’s no need to pay the loans, just to roll them over, and take new loans to serve the new taxpayers)

          The second type are companies with a limited life. They are based on a technology that changes a lot, or based out of assets that deplete or depreciate substantially (a mine, for instance, or a big smelter or refinery). These companies take big loans at the beginning of their life to cover the substantial capital expenditures needed to start operations, and have to amortize those loans in full before the underlaying assets are consumed.

          (As a second aside, households are like this. They have a limited time (the work life of the parents) to pay for all their big purchases, like housing and education, and cannot extend the repayment past a certain moment. That is why comparisons between the government’s budget and a family budget make no sense. We can discuss if taxes are too low or too high, but we can be sure that we are not running out of taxpayers.

          In your particular case, TV cable is closer to a utility, so rollover of debts is likely the correct financing strategyReport

      • Dark Matter in reply to North says:

        In theory you could make this work by getting more and more loans from the same bank to fund different real estate projects.

        You use the money from the new loan to pay off the old one.
        As Michael Cain has pointed out, that’s legal and normal…

        What’s not normal is to inflate the value of the underlying property by 20x.
        If we have one LLC is paying off the debts of another then we’re probably there. To be far I haven’t heard expressed directly but there’s a disconnect between these being separate LLCs and also being part of the Trump Empire.

        We have a lot of hints that things deeply wrong here. The accounting is complex and opaque to the point of absurdity and we know there’s fraud.

        In theory at some point the system breaks, but maybe at that point you dump all the debt onto one project that declares bankruptcy.

        Is this a bank loan fueled Ponzi scheme? Some flavor of Enron? Something else?

        Many of these moves seem breathtakingly risky unless you need to tell the banks that your assets are 20x what their real value is. Could be he has been totally bankrupt for decades and has just been really good at hiding it.Report