All the President’s Charges: On Donald Trump and Pounding The Table
The last of four major indictments of Donald Trumpfinally dropped this week, assuming he hasn’t committed any crimes in the last 48 hours. While there may be future investigations into the sprawling election conspiracy, it seems like few are likely to involve Trump himself the way the Georgia and DC investigations have. It’s still early and there’s a lot to digest in just the previous indictment, let alone the new one. But perusing the commentary, I am struck by something:
No one doubts that Trump did all these things.
There are strong and sometimes quite reasonable arguments about the exact charges brought, whether a conviction can be secured, whether statutes are being stretched to fit the circumstances and what, if any, culpability Donald John Trump has in these affairs. But no one is really arguing that he didn’t do the things he’s accused of.
Let’s walk through the four major cases involving the 45th President of the United States.
- There is no dispute that Donald Trump paid Stormy Daniels to be quiet and then falsely claimed it as a business expense. There are very real disputes about whether the case has merit because of the statute of limitations. Bragg has argued that because this was done in furtherance of a felony — an illegal campaign contribution — the statute does not apply. But even Trump haters are dubious of this legal theory and a jury may not buy it. But no one doubts he actually did it, just whether he should be prosecuted for it.
- There is no dispute that Donald Trump stole public documents, mishandled classified info and, when offered a chance to make things right1, engaged in a Keystone Cops caper to keep the info from his lawyer. We have pictures of documents stored in bathrooms. We have him on tape admitting he didn’t declassify any of it. We have video of his goons carting boxes around Mar-A-Lago. The video show them trying, and failing, to conceal what they were doing from the cameras. There are some arguments about whether the Espionage Act applies. But even his most ardent defenders admit this is the strongest of the four cases.
- There is no dispute that Donald Trump conspired to bring fake slates of electors to Washington and then have his Vice President either not count the electoral votes from seven states or swap in the fake electors. There have been some disingenuous arguments about free speech. Some slightly less disingenuous arguments about whether he got bad legal advice2 or whether it’s a lie if you really believe it. But then again, we have documentation of him lying about what people said to him. For example, Mike Pence told Trump he wouldn’t overturn the election and then Trump told other people Pence was on board. But again, whatever the legal minutia, literally no one can claim that the fake electors didn’t exist, that the Pence Card conspiracy didn’t exist and that Trump wasn’t heavily involved in both. The most they can say is that when the President does it, it isn’t illegal.
- With the new Georgia indictment, it’s early and there are some arguments going on about the legal theories Willis used in her indictment. In particular, there are some acts Willis has identified that actually would seem to fall under the aegis of free speech and association. But there is no question that Trump pressured the Secretary of State to find more votes after the election was certified. There is little doubt that Trump’s people breached an election system. There is little doubt that they engaged in a campaign of lies and terror against Ruby Freeman and Wandrea Moss. No one is arguing none of this happened, just what, if any, laws were broken.
In light of this, it’s no surprise so much of the conservative commentary has focused on the supposed impropriety of indicting a former president or a man running for the presidency. This is, supposedly, stuff that only happens in third world countries.
Is this disingenuous? Of course it is. Bill Clinton was under investigation for his entire presidency, had his law license stripped and probably would have been indicted had the McDougals not clammed up. Hillary Clinton was under federal investigation for most of the 2016 campaign cycle and, rather than oppose it, the Republicans chanted, “Lock her up!” When the investigation was publicly re-opened three days before the election — an event that may have tipped the scales in a close election — the Republicans didn’t utter a peep. Trump openly pressured the DOJ to indict Biden. The Biden investigation had been going for two years by the time the election rolled around (and notably was not only left in place by Joe, but recently elevated to Special Counsel status). So no, none of this is really unprecedented. It’s just a matter of degree.
The reason we’ve never indicted a former or wannabe president before is that none of them engaged in such blatant criminality. Harding might have but he died in office. Nixon probably did but he had the decency (and intelligence) to resign and get pardoned. The closest we’ve had to something like this might be Spiro Agnew, who pled no contest to felony tax evasion and resigned.
And as for third world countries only doing this… Israel is prosecuting its sitting Prime Minister for corruption. Former French President Nicolas Sarkozy is appealing two corruption convictions. Former South Korean President Park Geun-hye was pardoned after serving five years in prison. Former Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi had been in court half his life. And that’s just among rich countries. There are many functional democracies that have prosecuted former leaders. I would argue that a functional democracy kind of has to if they’ve broken the law.
Part of this is the generalized hypocrisy that permeates all of politics and always will.3 But in this particular case, the “how DARE you indict a former/wannabe president” energy is juiced because … that’s all his defenders have.
There’s an aphorism about law that goeth thusly: “If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table.” Trump’s defenders don’t have the facts on their side. They may have some of the law on their side, but that quickly devolves into esoteric discussions of intent. So … they’re pounding the table. They’re clutching their pearls. They’re putting their hand to their brow and finding a fainting couch. It’s cynical and I don’t know if the American people will buy it. But it’s all they have. Because so much of this behavior has been open and blatant lawbreaking from a man who is, for the first time in his life, being held to account.
- A chance most of us would not get.
- Which does not exonerate you if you break the law. And Trump sought out bad legal advice until he found a fourth-string environmental lawyer who would give it to him.
- I think part of this is also an effort to taint the jury pool. Trump’s main chance of acquittal is that a MAGAhead gets on a jury who believes that he can do no wrong and refuses to convict no matter what the evidence says.
1. Until he IS convicted, Donald Trump is the front runner for the GOP nomination. Even after he is convicted I do not expect the GOP base to abandon him. And because the Founding Fathers couldn’t actually conceive of anyone who would see conviction as an inconvenience, there is no federal mechanism to keep him from running from a jail cell.
2. 74 Million Americans wanted him as President in 2020. Available data indicates that he remains within the margin of error in for claiming that number of votes in 2024.
3. The GOP both refuses to call him out publicly because the fear loosing their own power, AND they refuse to coalesce around a single opponent. Even the big donors are not doing this. They have learned nothing since 2016, and i expect them to learn nothing in 2024.
4. Democrats are still trying to play symmetrical politics, even though they hold a minority of governors offices, an equal share of state legislatures and a minority in the House. They have learned nothing from the last two election cycles either.
5. The tantrums will continue until they won’t, and i see no clear way for the GOP to be reigned in. Which worries me immensely.Report
A friendly reminder that if almost anyone else, perhaps anyone else spoke about the indictments like Trump does, we would not be offered bail: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/16/us/politics/trump-chutkan-2020-election-truth-social.htmlReport
Yeah, there’s actually an open question of whether Trump’s going to get bail in Georgia, because Georgia state law is incredibly clear about the fact you cannot get bail unless the court is convinced you are not going to intimidate witnesses, and Trump has literally already intimidated other witnesses in other trials and in this one. In fact, part of the charges are that he was engaged in a conspiracy to intimidate and harass a public official who is now a witness against him!
By the actual text of the state law and his incredibly obvious behavior, he should not be eligible for bail. He simply should not, it’s a fact.
The question is really if the system bends and gives him bail anyway, what excuses going to be used for that, and then what excuses are going to be used to not lock him up when he does attempt to intimidate witnesses?Report
I really have no idea why you think the moving boxes of classifying information cases stronger than the fake electors case. It is perhaps simpler on the facts, but these cases won’t be decided by the facts, if we cared only about the fact he’d already be in prison.
See, the thing about the moving classified information around is Trump is going to try to argue that he had some sort of legal ability granted him by the presidency to do that. This is obvious bs, but it’s bs that will play in the public, and the courts might invent a reason to believe.
Do you know what no one, and I mean no one, can argue that the US president has the right to do? Forge Georgia state documents and pretend to be Georgia elected officials. Or be part of a conspiracy to do that.
The criminal far right has been arguing for literally decades, since Nixon, that the president can’t break Federal law, than anything the president does is magically legal. And there are morons out there who will buy that, including probably some judges.
But it’s much harder, and runs into basically everyone’s sanity check, to argue he can violate state law. He is not part of the executive branch of Georgia and has never been, he’s never been in charge of enforcing Georgia state law.
Also, we actually could keep him locked up in Georgia even if reelected. Certainly be an interesting constitutional question, and it’s worth pointing out that unlike Congress, there’s nothing saying he can’t be detained on the way to his job. This is unlike Federal charges, which he can immediately pardon himself for, or just release himself from. (And while it hasn’t quite sunk in the media yet, Georgia governors cannot actually pardon people. We had a little thing about them selling pardons to the KKK back 100 years ago, so we changed the Constitution.)Report
“Do you know what no one, and I mean no one, can argue that the US president has the right to do? Forge Georgia state documents and pretend to be Georgia elected officials. Or be part of a conspiracy to do that.”
Do you know what no one, and I mean no one, can incontrovertibly argue happened with no equivocation? That Trump removed classified documents from a secure facility without review and stored them improperly.
You’re thinking “oh there’s so much evidence that he interfered with the election” but if you’re expecting him to claim that he can declassify stuff on his own personal say-so without telling anybody, then you definitely should be expecting any court proceeding about the election to get bogged down in extensive parsings of who said exactly which words to exactly whom at what exact moment, and did those words constitute “suggestions” or “directions” or “requests” and which of those ought to be considered “interference”, and the end result is a jury that says “sure this looks fishy but there’s no legal standard that this meets and we can’t just declare that Vibes overcomes Reasonable Doubt because that’s not how criminal justice works, not guilty”.Report
… why do you think forging official documents and posing as public officials is ‘election interference’ as opposed to, you know, the other very specific crimes that they are?
“Who can say whether Trump repeatedly running over someone with a car in an alleged attempt to stop the election was election interference or not?”
“Um…he’s actually been charged with assault and battery for that.”Report
Again, I keep asking people here to actually read the indictments or at least read good legal summaries of the indictments, because a lot of people here have just imagined what they say, assuming they are based in the legal theories that the left has been talking about of Trump’s obvious criminality of things he _said_ in public, assuming that’s what the case against him was built out of.
When in reality they are very well detailed explanations of much different crimes, very obvious crimes, not ‘election interference’. When the stuff he said in public is mentioned, it is merely mentioned as being part of a conspiracy, not as an illegal act itself.
Meanwhile, as for talking about who said what and when, the indictment is pretty clear about that and the evidence they have, and everyone talked about this plan openly with him. It wasn’t even crouched in some mob boss hinting, which to be clear wouldn’t have helped, but it wasn’t even like that. It was just straight up everyone knew what they were doing.
And Trump did things to further that, which means he participated in the conspiracy.Report
For example:
Trump repeatedly contacted top Republican leaders in Georgia, including the state’s governor, lieutenant governor, secretary of state and former House Speaker. (Trump is charged with this particular crime and others more than once, so you will see some counts listed multiple times here.)
The indictment specifically mentions this last call — to David Ralston, at the time the Speaker of the House in Georgia — saying that on Dec. 7, 2020, Trump cajoled him to call for a special session “for the purpose of unlawfully appointing presidential electors” from Georgia.
What his defenders are doing is waving away the hundreds of acts and statements, and focusing on the one call in the hopes that they can use the ambiguities of language to make it seem impossible to determine its meaning.Report
I’m not quite sure who you’re quoting, but they have actually phrased that a little confusingly.
What Trump was asking for would have been illegal for them to do, but it probably isn’t a crime per se to ask for it. It’s generally legal to ask people to do illegal things, and even when it isn’t it’s a really high bar to convict. Which is exactly why he wasn’t charged for the phone calls.
The reason those phone calls are listed and introduced as evidence is that a) show Trump knew about this conspiracy, (although there’s plenty of evidence other than tha like direct testimony of discussions with him), and b) are overt acts furthering said conspiracy, which is of course all Trump is required to have done to be charged with it. (Along with being used as evidence towards RICO, which I know less about.)Report
It was from a WaPo article listing the separate acts.
I quoted it to provide context to the call to Raffensberger. Adding this context, along with the rest of the acts, makes it preposterous to think he was asking Raffensberger to do anything other than commit fraud.Report
Bingo.Report
This seems a relevant place to post this link. It appears that some wing nut has posted the names and addresses of the Georgia grand jury. I’m sure that all of the people who were very very upset the protesters hung around outside Brad Cavanaugh his house are going to be similarly upset that the people tasked with serving within the justice system are being intimidated thusly.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/names-addresses-grand-jurors-georgia-trump-indictment-posted-online-rcna100239Report
TBF: the names are in the indictment, IIRC. But yeah, giving out their addresses is basically calling for something bad to happen.Report
Accusing people of being hypocrites before they react to something: it saves time!Report
Tell us – are you upset these addresses were released online?Report
Of course.Report
You offer Donald trump a remarkable generosity of interpretation during his call to the Georgia secretary of state. According to you, he wasn’t soliciting the falsification of the results of the election, he was just expressing desperation.
A similar generosity of interpretation does not seem applied to my comment here. Which is okay, I’m not owed any sort of generosity of interpretation. Just curious why Trump, whom you claim not to like, gets treated better than I.Report
Is there are more generous way to interpret what you said? I didn’t even think of it as an interpretation. If it makes you feel any better, I don’t think your comment was an attempt to subvert democracy either.
If you want, you could think of this as my “thing”: not accusing people of things without evidence they did them.Report
I was making a prediction. I’ll admit I did it in a sarcastic way.Report
“On June 8, 2022, Nicholas Roske traveled to the home of Brett Kavanaugh, an associate justice of the United States Supreme Court, with plans to break in Kavanaugh’s home, kill him, and then commit suicide.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Kavanaugh_assassination_plot
You sarcastically belittled the people who were upset by this. Why? Not because of their hypocrisy, because they haven’t said anything hypocritical. Not because you support assassination, based on your comment criticizing intimidation. No, you sarcastically belittled people who were upset about an attempted assassination in order to score political points. I’m blown away by that.Report
There’s a difference between protesters and this guy.Report
Once again, I get interpreted in the worst possible faith where people on the right side of the spectrum, even those to whom you profess to object, get every benefit of the doubt. U.S. Senators like Ted Cruz called for the criminal prosecution of peaceful protestors before Mr. Roske ever showed his actually-criminal face, but I haven’t heard much from them about preserving the safety of the Georgia grand jurors.
Maybe you have. Would read any links you care to post.Report
Georgia is a state case.Report
And that makes it better? Worse? A non-starter?Report
Well there it is, folks, it’s okay to picket outside the houses of the Georgia grand jury members so long as it’s done peacefully.Report
Re: fn3: of course, the prospective juror would have to lie about her opinions and prejudices and survive voir dire and potential challenges during deliberations. But these kinds of things have happened before, in much lower-stakes cases.Report