All the President’s Charges: On Donald Trump and Pounding The Table

Michael Siegel

Michael Siegel is an astronomer living in Pennsylvania. He blogs at his own site, and has written a novel.

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26 Responses

  1. Philip H says:

    1. Until he IS convicted, Donald Trump is the front runner for the GOP nomination. Even after he is convicted I do not expect the GOP base to abandon him. And because the Founding Fathers couldn’t actually conceive of anyone who would see conviction as an inconvenience, there is no federal mechanism to keep him from running from a jail cell.

    2. 74 Million Americans wanted him as President in 2020. Available data indicates that he remains within the margin of error in for claiming that number of votes in 2024.

    3. The GOP both refuses to call him out publicly because the fear loosing their own power, AND they refuse to coalesce around a single opponent. Even the big donors are not doing this. They have learned nothing since 2016, and i expect them to learn nothing in 2024.

    4. Democrats are still trying to play symmetrical politics, even though they hold a minority of governors offices, an equal share of state legislatures and a minority in the House. They have learned nothing from the last two election cycles either.

    5. The tantrums will continue until they won’t, and i see no clear way for the GOP to be reigned in. Which worries me immensely.Report

  2. Saul Degraw says:

    A friendly reminder that if almost anyone else, perhaps anyone else spoke about the indictments like Trump does, we would not be offered bail: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/16/us/politics/trump-chutkan-2020-election-truth-social.htmlReport

    • DavidTC in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Yeah, there’s actually an open question of whether Trump’s going to get bail in Georgia, because Georgia state law is incredibly clear about the fact you cannot get bail unless the court is convinced you are not going to intimidate witnesses, and Trump has literally already intimidated other witnesses in other trials and in this one. In fact, part of the charges are that he was engaged in a conspiracy to intimidate and harass a public official who is now a witness against him!

      By the actual text of the state law and his incredibly obvious behavior, he should not be eligible for bail. He simply should not, it’s a fact.

      The question is really if the system bends and gives him bail anyway, what excuses going to be used for that, and then what excuses are going to be used to not lock him up when he does attempt to intimidate witnesses?Report

  3. DavidTC says:

    I really have no idea why you think the moving boxes of classifying information cases stronger than the fake electors case. It is perhaps simpler on the facts, but these cases won’t be decided by the facts, if we cared only about the fact he’d already be in prison.

    See, the thing about the moving classified information around is Trump is going to try to argue that he had some sort of legal ability granted him by the presidency to do that. This is obvious bs, but it’s bs that will play in the public, and the courts might invent a reason to believe.

    Do you know what no one, and I mean no one, can argue that the US president has the right to do? Forge Georgia state documents and pretend to be Georgia elected officials. Or be part of a conspiracy to do that.

    The criminal far right has been arguing for literally decades, since Nixon, that the president can’t break Federal law, than anything the president does is magically legal. And there are morons out there who will buy that, including probably some judges.

    But it’s much harder, and runs into basically everyone’s sanity check, to argue he can violate state law. He is not part of the executive branch of Georgia and has never been, he’s never been in charge of enforcing Georgia state law.

    Also, we actually could keep him locked up in Georgia even if reelected. Certainly be an interesting constitutional question, and it’s worth pointing out that unlike Congress, there’s nothing saying he can’t be detained on the way to his job. This is unlike Federal charges, which he can immediately pardon himself for, or just release himself from. (And while it hasn’t quite sunk in the media yet, Georgia governors cannot actually pardon people. We had a little thing about them selling pardons to the KKK back 100 years ago, so we changed the Constitution.)Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

      “Do you know what no one, and I mean no one, can argue that the US president has the right to do? Forge Georgia state documents and pretend to be Georgia elected officials. Or be part of a conspiracy to do that.”

      Do you know what no one, and I mean no one, can incontrovertibly argue happened with no equivocation? That Trump removed classified documents from a secure facility without review and stored them improperly.

      You’re thinking “oh there’s so much evidence that he interfered with the election” but if you’re expecting him to claim that he can declassify stuff on his own personal say-so without telling anybody, then you definitely should be expecting any court proceeding about the election to get bogged down in extensive parsings of who said exactly which words to exactly whom at what exact moment, and did those words constitute “suggestions” or “directions” or “requests” and which of those ought to be considered “interference”, and the end result is a jury that says “sure this looks fishy but there’s no legal standard that this meets and we can’t just declare that Vibes overcomes Reasonable Doubt because that’s not how criminal justice works, not guilty”.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

        … why do you think forging official documents and posing as public officials is ‘election interference’ as opposed to, you know, the other very specific crimes that they are?

        “Who can say whether Trump repeatedly running over someone with a car in an alleged attempt to stop the election was election interference or not?”

        “Um…he’s actually been charged with assault and battery for that.”Report

        • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

          Again, I keep asking people here to actually read the indictments or at least read good legal summaries of the indictments, because a lot of people here have just imagined what they say, assuming they are based in the legal theories that the left has been talking about of Trump’s obvious criminality of things he _said_ in public, assuming that’s what the case against him was built out of.

          When in reality they are very well detailed explanations of much different crimes, very obvious crimes, not ‘election interference’. When the stuff he said in public is mentioned, it is merely mentioned as being part of a conspiracy, not as an illegal act itself.

          Meanwhile, as for talking about who said what and when, the indictment is pretty clear about that and the evidence they have, and everyone talked about this plan openly with him. It wasn’t even crouched in some mob boss hinting, which to be clear wouldn’t have helped, but it wasn’t even like that. It was just straight up everyone knew what they were doing.

          And Trump did things to further that, which means he participated in the conspiracy.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to DavidTC says:

            For example:
            Trump repeatedly contacted top Republican leaders in Georgia, including the state’s governor, lieutenant governor, secretary of state and former House Speaker. (Trump is charged with this particular crime and others more than once, so you will see some counts listed multiple times here.)

            The indictment specifically mentions this last call — to David Ralston, at the time the Speaker of the House in Georgia — saying that on Dec. 7, 2020, Trump cajoled him to call for a special session “for the purpose of unlawfully appointing presidential electors” from Georgia.

            What his defenders are doing is waving away the hundreds of acts and statements, and focusing on the one call in the hopes that they can use the ambiguities of language to make it seem impossible to determine its meaning.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              I’m not quite sure who you’re quoting, but they have actually phrased that a little confusingly.

              What Trump was asking for would have been illegal for them to do, but it probably isn’t a crime per se to ask for it. It’s generally legal to ask people to do illegal things, and even when it isn’t it’s a really high bar to convict. Which is exactly why he wasn’t charged for the phone calls.

              The reason those phone calls are listed and introduced as evidence is that a) show Trump knew about this conspiracy, (although there’s plenty of evidence other than tha like direct testimony of discussions with him), and b) are overt acts furthering said conspiracy, which is of course all Trump is required to have done to be charged with it. (Along with being used as evidence towards RICO, which I know less about.)Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to DavidTC says:

                It was from a WaPo article listing the separate acts.

                I quoted it to provide context to the call to Raffensberger. Adding this context, along with the rest of the acts, makes it preposterous to think he was asking Raffensberger to do anything other than commit fraud.Report

  4. Burt Likko says:

    This seems a relevant place to post this link. It appears that some wing nut has posted the names and addresses of the Georgia grand jury. I’m sure that all of the people who were very very upset the protesters hung around outside Brad Cavanaugh his house are going to be similarly upset that the people tasked with serving within the justice system are being intimidated thusly.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/names-addresses-grand-jurors-georgia-trump-indictment-posted-online-rcna100239Report

  5. Burt Likko says:

    Re: fn3: of course, the prospective juror would have to lie about her opinions and prejudices and survive voir dire and potential challenges during deliberations. But these kinds of things have happened before, in much lower-stakes cases.Report