A Paucity Of Limits, By Stipulation: 303 Creative v Elenis

Burt Likko

Pseudonymous Portlander. Pursuer of happiness. Bon vivant. Homebrewer. Atheist. Recovering Republican. Recovering Catholic. Recovering divorcé. Editor-in-Chief Emeritus of Ordinary Times. Relapsed Lawyer, admitted to practice law (under his real name) in California and Oregon. There's a Twitter account at @burtlikko, but not used for posting on the general feed anymore. House Likko's Words: Scite Verum. Colite Iusticia. Vivere Con Gaudium.

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66 Responses

  1. Greg In Ak says:

    Good piece. I’ve heard enough from you and all the other law talkers that “hypothetical” issue is more optics and weird then wrong. It’s a plausible hypothetical though in the future every case should have some board paralegal check if it actually happened.

    But the real question is what you say. Does the law apply to religious people? Very few answers from the people pushing for religion to swamp democracy and the law. Not great.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Greg In Ak says:

      RE: Does the law apply to religious people?

      There you go. That’s the issue in a nutshell.

      We try to avoid stepping on religious beliefs because the level of push back can be so high that it’s not worth it. We saw the limits of gov power showcased with the covid vaccine and how unreasonable people refused to take it.Report

      • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter says:

        I’d go one further and ask how does one demonstrate “sincerely held religious beliefs”. What constitutes evidence, and more importantly, what kind of religion?Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

          Consistency. When the military was dealing with anti-covid-vax soldiers, they checked their record to see if they’d taken vaccinations before.

          If the issue is coming up because you’re in legal jeopardy and you have no way to prove this is a religious disagreement as opposed to just bigotry, then you probably have a problem.

          IDK which religions say what about homosexuality. I know there are at least some which claim gay marriage isn’t godly.

          This will be less of an issue as the old generations which grew up without gay marriage die off. Their religions’ priests will discover they get more money by supporting gay marriage than attacking it, and then they’ll have religious epiphanies where God lets them know it’s fine.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Dark Matter says:

            Heh. Just like the way all churches approve of adultery.Report

            • North in reply to Pinky says:

              They don’t approve of it, but they sure as heck don’t go after it the way they go after various things gay. Some sins simply are worse than others*.

              *Specifically the sins a minority commits that we and our flock can focus and obsess on and feel good about ourselves.Report

              • Pinky in reply to North says:

                So you’ve never been to a church?Report

              • North in reply to Pinky says:

                Talk is cheap- actions speak louder than words.Report

              • Pinky in reply to North says:

                But you and Dark Matter are talking about words. I brought up adultery because it’s such an obvious example of how the church doesn’t modify its message to make things easier, and you two are claiming it’s an example of how it does.

                I don’t think I’ve ever heard a sermon about how homosexual activities are wrong. You two are treating it like it’s the only thing they ever preach about. And sermons are hardly ever about making people feel good.Report

              • North in reply to Pinky says:

                In terms of the religious advocating, lobbying, voting and agitating for state laws and interventions, homosexuality, trans matters and abortion are the overwhelming focus of their attention. All the other sins sit far, far, far at the back of the bus.

                Is there any religious push for civil penalties for adultery? Or a religious campaign against greed? If so I’m not aware of one.

                I grant the priest at the pulpit says all the sins are equal while the parishioners doze and surreptitiously check their phones. But in terms of what the religious advocates and organizations actually take action against, the only sins that matter are the ones that don’t effect them much.Report

              • Pinky in reply to North says:

                OK, so you’re talking about the tiny little portion of religion known as white Evangelical Christianity in America. And describing it wrong. And generalizing from that.Report

              • North in reply to Pinky says:

                I’d say it accurately enough describes most of the Catholics and the Mormons political activity as well.Report

              • Pinky in reply to North says:

                The political life of Catholics, Mormons, Evangelicals, Protestants, et cetera, is a tiny portion of their religious life. The most prominent political causes for organized Catholic associations are abortion and immigration, with Catholic schools, euthanasia, and maybe the death penalty rounding out the top five.Report

              • North in reply to Pinky says:

                Sure, and I have a general working understanding of Christian theology. But in as much as it matters to non-faithful, the outward political action of these groups is the only element of their life that “matters” even if it’s a minor part of the religious “world” of the laity.Report

              • Pinky in reply to North says:

                But that’s not even true, unless you don’t care about education, food banks, elder care, crisis pregnancy and adoption care, health care, housing, aid to refugees and victims of natural disasters, ESL, support groups (including AA), summer camps for the poor…Report

              • North in reply to Pinky says:

                Those are all laudable (except crisis pregnancy services which are in a greyer zone) good works but not anything that the non-faithful have to worry about in their day to day lives. And, of course, none of those are about fighting “sin”.Report

              • Pinky in reply to North says:

                You assume that the disadvantaged aren’t faithful, and that each man is an island entire of itself. I don’t know which would be considered more hateful if someone else said it.

                Also, note that we’re down to ‘some things are done by a small portion of some of the faiths sometimes that hardly ever are against some of my principles but when they are I don’t like them’.Report

              • North in reply to Pinky says:

                Not at all, if you’re disadvantaged and someone’s offering a hand up that’s great whether they’re faithful or not and for whatever reason they’re doing it.

                But if you have no truck with religion or much truck with religion it’s highly relevant to your interests if the religious are petitioning the civil government to restrict your activities. Religions speak out against sins, but when it comes to advocating that the state impose their particular views of sins on everyone, religious and nonreligious alike, only a small subset of sins get that special treatment from the religious busybodies. Not all sins are treated equal when it comes to when the religious, and in this country that’s generally Christians, go out and try and force everyone to conform to their ideals regarding them.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to North says:

                Scalia was upset that Lawrence preemptively decriminalized masturbation,Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                He was a steadfast opponent of giving people a hand up.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

            The best example of this is premarital sex.

            In the 60’s during the Sexual Revolution, most churches were wildly angry about premarital sex, and endlessly preached against it and threw all their muscle into the fight against things like sex education and contraception.
            “Living in sin” was a serious moral problem, they said.

            Now, I doubt you can find a single couple at any megachurch wedding who isn’t already living together, with the acceptance of their community.

            Its just not an issue, with anybody.

            But…it only worked this way because premarital sex was something everyone likes and wants to indulge in.
            Homosexuality and gender fluidity will always be a minority, and so their rights will always be dependent upon the majority’s tolerance.

            And as it turns out, misogyny will forever be the gateway drug to more generalized forms of bigotry and intolerance, and misogyny is something that nearly everyone has access to.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Religion needs an enemy to justify it’s existence and to give Priests something to preach against.

              Homosexuality worked for that while the bulk of them were in the closet. With them out and normalized, they’re less threatening and the cost benefit calculation has changed for the Priestly class.

              You lose people if you’re against gays. If someone’s kid is gay, then you may lose the entire family. So there is a lot less benefit and a lot more cost.

              The same thing happened with premarital sex. While it was rare or in the closet, the Priests could lead the charge against a threatening-but-not-really minority. When it was common enough that the Priests would lose more money than they’d get, the entire cause was dropped.

              Being Gay is in the process of being dropped as an issue. It might take a generation but whatever. Gender Fluid… probably has a tough road ahead unless they get more common.

              Religion isn’t about morality but it wants to believe it is.Report

  2. PD Shaw says:

    The trial court and the court of appeals ruled against the plaintiff, so the stipulations could not have been completely dispositive. Gorsuch wields them to maximum effect, but future litigants will certainly have incentives to scrutinize whether any of those stipulations apply or agreed to in future cases.

    One of the issues was how Colorado structured its laws. The state indicated that it had no discretion but to pursue a complaint once a private citizen files one. This is not like a jaywalking case, where the police observe a violation, it’s given to a DA to prosecute or not prosecute. The law has outsourced the first part to everybody and given the government no discretion not to enforce a complaint. This is somewhat reminiscent of the Texas abortion law that basically privatized both components, but here the process feeds to the state which can be enjoined. Whatever the merits, this is a design that doesn’t entirely trust the government.Report

  3. Chip Daniels says:

    Its also impossible not to see the links between the tortured reasoning by SCOTUS and the Christian Nationalist political movement which put them in the majority in order to see which way they are leading.Report

  4. DavidTC says:

    I agree with all that, Burt, and I’d like to make two additional points:

    1. It is really absurd to have a _declaratory relief_ issued by the Supreme Court that completely fails to set any boundaries at all, so literally no one except people in identical situations know if they are covered. This seems like a monumental waste of, again, the ACTUAL SUPREME COURT’S time.

    I’m not an expect here, but it seems the court being presenting with a completely hypothetical question without any actual weird facts or edges would allow the court to actually hyper-focus on _laying out rules_. The expression is ‘hard cases (I.e, those with really weird or complicated facts) make bad law’, so surely the best places to make law would…things that are not actually cases but merely questions of ‘If I do this, is it legal?’, and the court can sit there and figure out all the rules around a hypothetical in a complete vacuum.

    Nope. Instead it was ‘It is legal, due to some stuff we’re not going to really explain so absolutely no other court can figure it out’.

    Um…why did the Supreme Court just punt a decision to…uh…itself in the future? What. Is. The. Test. For. ‘Expressive Goods’? You can’t just _say words_. Does it include, for a very close question to the actual case, merely hosting a website? What if I ask Kinko’s to print something I made? What are the boundaries of this?

    2. …but all this makes sense when you realize that good chunk of this case was not about laws at all, it was about making sure everyone now ‘knew’ it was legal to discriminate against LGBTQ people for religious reason. Of course, that is untrue, and the decision didn’t even have anything to do with religious reasons in a technical sense…it’s about freedom from compelled speech.

    But it doesn’t matter, because a bunch of conservatives can prance around about how their taking over of the Supreme Court just made everyone ‘free’, and now everyone is allowed to discriminate against the gays. (Which comes as a huge surprise to queer people who are living in states that _never_ protected them to start with.)

    It’s an attempt to move the Overton Windows, not actual legal decision-making. It’s explicitly political.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

      so literally no one except people in identical situations know if they are covered.

      Actually, that’s even going too far, with all the stipulations. Even people in that situation don’t know!!

      Let’s imagine someone actually sets up this business…no, wait, let’s imagine she, specifically, sets up this business, saying she will only handle straight weddings, and a person comes to her with a gay wedding they want her to do, and she say ‘I will not, and that is legal under the law, the court literally said so’.

      And he sues her, and everyone like ‘He’s going to lose’.

      Except that he doesn’t stipulate she’s making the speech. In fact, he asserts that he is perfectly willing to provide any written content she has a problem with, and she is merely in charge of the graphical design and hosting and technical aspects.

      Now, she might argue that that is not how she makes websites, and he could counter with ‘Yes, it is less than you normally do, but the court decision says you can not do a very specific thing that you normally do, and I am fine with you not doing that specific thing, but you have to provide the rest for me, and I will do whatever is left, or hire someone else for that bit’.

      And I’m not going to try to imagine how that argument goes in court, maybe the graphic design also counts as speech and she can just be required to provide templates and hosting, or maybe the court agrees with him, or maybe it declares that everything is too intertwined and she can’t be forced to split them out, whatever.

      But what is very clear is that this declaratory relief _did literally nothing_. It didn’t even clarify the supposed very specific issue she asked about, because it stipulated right past a pretty serious question, the most serious question in this context: What counts as her speech?

      Because, again, this was a political decision intended to make a political point and give a political victory to the right-wing, not an actual serious case being decided for actual legal reasons.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to DavidTC says:

        From the majority slip opinion, pgs 1-2 (cleaned up):

        As she envisions it, her websites will provide couples with text, graphic arts, and videos to “celebrate” and “convey” the “details” of their “unique love story.” … websites will discuss how the couple met, explain their backgrounds, families, and future plans, and provide information about their upcoming wedding. All of the text and graphics on these websites will be “original,” “customized,” and “tailored” creations. The websites will be “expressive in nature,” designed “to communicate a particular message.” Viewers will know, too, “that the websites are Ms. Smith’s original artwork,” for the name of the company she owns and operates by herself will
        be displayed on every one.

        From this I’m pretty sure that graphic design alone is enough to count as Smith’s own expression. The mere design of the template that the client uses to plug in their information about their “unique love story” is probably enough.* Font selection would probably be enough.

        IMHO, this Court would have found anything that Smith did to be “creative” or “expressive,” and therefore called it compelled speech. What a future Court might do, though, hard to say. After all, we know that stare decisis is for suckers.” (See pg. 19, dissenting opinion.)

        * Maybe I’m being cynical here but just how “unique” are these stories? “We met in a bar.” “We get set up by a friend.” “We started having an affair while he was still married to someone else.”Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Burt Likko says:

          From this I’m pretty sure that graphic design alone is enough to count as Smith’s own expression. The mere design of the template that the client uses to plug in their information about their “unique love story” is probably enough.* Font selection would probably be enough.

          You can say that, and it might even be how the court would have decided, but the actual hypothetical posed was ‘All of the text and graphics on these websites will be “original,” “customized,” and “tailored” creations.’ and Viewers will know, too, “that the websites are Ms. Smith’s original artwork,” for the name of the company she owns and operates by herself will be displayed on every one.”

          Because we have literally no test laid out, no way to balance any of this, if _any_ of this changes, we have no idea of the outcome. You know, pretending the court isn’t just making nonsense up to get the outcomes it wants.

          And it’s worth pointing out that this is a very extreme hypothetical, and not how website design normally works. You normally don’t hire someone to make a website and they splash their name all over your pages, for the most obvious thing.

          Hell, someone could sue and simply say ‘I want you to do everything you normally do, but you should leave your name off it’. An important aspect of the barring of compelled speech is that people will ascribe views to you that you do not hold, in fact that was a relevant part of this case which is why it is mentioned, so is the compromise simply that she leaves her name off such websites? If so, this decision barely applies to anything, if the rule is only ‘art that is signed by the artist’.

          And that’s just one of the many extreme things. Neither the wedding industry or the ‘small personal website’ industry work like this, for instance. No one is getting bespoke original creations. You choose between maybe fifteen templates, the exact same way you pick a wedding cake and wedding invitations and catering. Weddings are already expensive enough, who the hell is this service aimed at? (And then, after you pay for all this custom graphics and design, she splashes her name all over it. Huh?)

          This hypothetical she presented turned every single dial to ‘thing that will get most the favorable outcome’, but that presents a real problem when, in the actual world, no one would provide a service identical to hers cause it’s a really weird service, and thus any actual lawsuit would be over facts that are less favorable.

          And you know how this sort of thing is _supposed_ to work better than I do. In circumstances like this, what is supposed to happen is a balancing test, or a set of defined standards. A tool the courts use to test whether or not something appears constitutional protected. The Supreme Court literally just clarified one of those with religious accommodation this very session!

          So what is the standard here? What are the important aspects? Where are the lines drawn, how do the sides weigh various rights against each other?

          The Supreme Court: I dunno. We feel this very very specific hypothetical posed is legal (Let’s all pretend we don’t know it was custom-designed to present the best case and nothing would be like this in reality.), and…that’s all, k thx bye.Report

          • Burt Likko in reply to DavidTC says:

            And you know how this sort of thing is supposed to work better than I do. In circumstances like this, what is supposed to happen is a balancing test, or a set of defined standards. A tool the courts use to test whether or not something appears constitutional protected. The Supreme Court literally just clarified one of those with religious accommodation this very session!

            So what is the standard here? What are the important aspects? Where are the lines drawn, how do the sides weigh various rights against each other?

            This is my core complaint. As I wrote in the OP the specific result with these specific facts may well be the right one.

            When we don’t see a rule, a balancing test, and only see a specific result with a specific set of facts, it falls to legal analysts, often academics first and practitioners following per the vicissitudes of their client’s practical needs, to tease out a rule from the corpus of caselaw.

            So far, the trend I see is what I announced in the OP: socially conservative Christians seem to win cases where they ask for exceptions to generally-applicable laws, and other kinds of plaintiffs do not. Perhaps there is some other trend, some other thing in common that I have overlooked. Maybe that other thing is actually principled and not driven by the majority bloc’s affinity towards these plaintiffs based on their identity.

            If so, I haven’t seen it yet but I’d welcome analysis from someone else suggesting that there is something more principled going on here.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Burt Likko says:

              The trend (of giving permission to Christians/ anti-gay people) won’t need to be clarified.

              In other types of cases, there would be all sorts of similar groups claiming the same right, and the courts would issue clarifications as to why THIS group qualified, but THAT group did not.

              But in America today, its really only Christians and anti-gay people who are making these demands in the first place.

              There isn’t really any significant number of gay-owned businesses demanding the right to refuse service to straights or Jewish owned signmakers refusing to print Easter banners.

              In America, ethnic minorities, and minority religions have mostly made peace with their status as minority and they don’t generally go around being intolerant.

              Conservative Christians haven’t accepted their minority status yet. They still demand to be treated as the default group, while everyone else must be the tolerated guest.

              This is why they demand the right for businesses to refuse service to queer people, but become insanely angry when another business actually welcomes them.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Burt Likko says:

              So far, the trend I see is what I announced in the OP: socially conservative Christians seem to win cases where they ask for exceptions to generally-applicable laws, and other kinds of plaintiffs do not.

              A fun case to look at is Employment Division v. Smith, where an unemployment office of Oregon denied unemployment to two people who were fired because of participating in a religious ceremony which involved illegal conduct.

              To be clear, they were not suing the place that fired them, they seemed to accept that place had a right to fire them, they sued the unemployment office, who refused to pay unemployment due to a policy of not paying unemployment for firings for illegal actions.

              Again, everyone involved agreed that they had been participating in a religious ceremony when the illegal behavior happened.

              The Supreme Court, no surprise, decided against them. Even the conservatives. Because their religion was the Native American Church and their crime was the use of peyote.

              To quote the court: To make an individual’s obligation to obey such a law contingent upon the law’s coincidence with his religious beliefs, except where the State’s interest is “compelling”–permitting him, by virtue of his beliefs, “to become a law unto himself,”–contradicts both constitutional tradition and common sense.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to DavidTC says:

                To be sure, the fact that Mr. Smith and his co-plaintiffs sought to practice a Native religion was a factor in why he lost. This was widely assumed to be true at the time the case was handed down (which was when I was preparing to go to law school and studying constitutional law as a political phenomenon at the undergraduate level).

                As a general matter I agree with Justice Scalia in Smith that the notion that one’s religion does not enable one to “become a law unto himself.” Interesting indeed is this passage:

                The only decisions in which we have held that the First Amendment bars application of a neutral, generally applicable law to religiously motivated action have involved not the Free Exercise Clause alone, but the Free Exercise Clause in conjunction with other constitutional protections, such as freedom of speech and of the press, see Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. at 304, 310 U. S. 307 (invalidating a licensing system for religious and charitable solicitations under which the administrator had discretion to deny a license to any cause he deemed nonreligious); Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U. S. 105 (1943) (invalidating a flat tax on solicitation as applied to the dissemination of religious ideas); Follett v. McCormick, 321 U. S. 573 (1944) (same), or the right of parents, acknowledged in Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U. S. 510 (1925), to direct the education of their children, see Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U. S. 205 (1972) (invalidating compulsory school attendance laws as applied to Amish parents who refused on religious grounds to send their children to school).

                494 U.S. at 881.

                Here, in 303 Creative, the Court pretends that its decision is all about speech and religion is simply on the periphery. But we don’t know what speech it is that the state would theoretically be compelling Ms. Smith to engage in, beyond that it would have somehow involved an implicit approval in some fashion of same-sex marriages, or at least of a particular same-sex marriage. We don’t know if that speech would be religious or not. But we do know that her objection to that theoretical speech was motivated by her personal religious beliefs. Which is why I resist the notion that this case is solely about speech. I mean, I agree with you that the majority opinion nowhere invokes the Free Exercise Clause so on the face of it you’re correct to say that it’s just about compelled speech.

                But I have a hard time conjuring up any sort of realistic compelled speech scenario where this newly-announced wrinkle in the law would not involve religious belief.Report

              • Brandon Berg in reply to Burt Likko says:

                But I have a hard time conjuring up any sort of realistic compelled speech scenario where this newly-announced wrinkle in the law would not involve religious belief.

                DEI statements and trans issues come to mind. A radical feminist baker’s objection to being required to bake a trans coming-out cake (or whatever) would not likely be motivated by religion. If I were a web developer, I would reject requests to make web sites promoting various left-wing racial blood libels, like BLM and MMIWG.Report

              • Em Carpenter in reply to Brandon Berg says:

                MMIWG? As in Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls?
                What are you referring to?Report

              • Brandon Berg in reply to Em Carpenter says:

                Yes. Activists are claiming that indigenous Canadian women are routinely murdered by white men—often using the term genocide—but all the evidence points to the murders as being overwhelmingly intraracial, just as they are for members of every other race.

                The Canadian government spent about $100 million to commission a thousand-page report on the issue. One page was devoted to the question of who was committing the murders, and it just said that they don’t trust the stats because the RCMP are racists.

                Also, indigenous Canadian women are murdered at about the same rate per capita as white men in the US, so the scale of the problem is being hugely exaggerated.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Burt Likko says:

                “I agree with Justice Scalia in Smith that the notion that one’s religion does not enable one to “become a law unto himself.””

                So, screw those Indians, they can obey the law same as everyone else? Interesting.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to DensityDuck says:

                Also,
                “the fact that Mr. Smith and his co-plaintiffs sought to practice a Native religion was a factor in why he lost. ”

                Could you provide some examples of cases where the sanction for a prima facie illegal action was rescinded specifically because that action was part of a White/Western religious practice?Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

                Could you provide some examples of cases where the sanction for a prima facie illegal action was rescinded specifically because that action was part of a White/Western religious practice?

                And the reason you think Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores isn’t an obvious example of this is…?

                And this example is rather telling compared to your actual wording: Christian don’t actually have to argue in court that their illegal actions should be allowed because lawmakers often already carved them an exception under the law. And when they don’t, it doesn’t matter anyway, because often those laws simply aren’t enforced…there are a lot of churches that just blatantly violate laws about noisemaking with church bells, but no one ever does anything about it. (And if anyone does enforce it, they are vilified and politicians immediately carve it out of the law.)

                The Hobby Lobby case was just because the ACA hadn’t carved out such an exception for _businesses_ and the Federal government was actually going to enforce the law.

                There are all sorts of laws across this country that allow medical professionals and institutes to exercise their ‘conscience’ WRT abortion and birth control…AND ONLY THAT. (And we can probably add trans healthcare to that pretty soon.)

                You’ll never see a law explicitly allowing people not to sell pork, or beef, or caffeine, or provide any medical care at all, due to their ‘conscience’. Only the very very specific places that Christians would come into conflict with various laws, or, hell, not even that but just get sued or fired for.

                In fact, the peyote law, which passed after this, is actually pretty unique, in that is basically the only law (Besides some NYC laws aimed at ultra-orthodox Jews, which have some sizable amount of political power there.) that actually gives any benefit to any non-Christian religion. And it did so in an incredibly restrictive way that has a lot of problems.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

                “Could you provide some examples of cases where the sanction for a prima facie illegal action was rescinded specifically because that action was part of a White/Western religious practice?

                And the reason you think Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores isn’t an obvious example of this is…?”

                …because it occurred after passage of the RFRA?

                Likko’s assertion is that Makin’ Them Injuns Be Good was the reason EDD v. Smith was decided in the government’s favor, and that if it had been some nice white Catholic boys then they could have smoked all the peyote they liked. I’m asking for examples of that thing he said would have happened, not something that happened in a different legal regime entirely.

                And heck, if you want to claim that pre- or post-RFRA is valid grounds then I’ll cite Miller v. Davis again. (Do I get to be all snotty and bitchy about how you didn’t mention it?)

                “Christian [sic] don’t actually have to argue in court that their illegal actions should be allowed because lawmakers often already carved them an exception under the law.”

                The RFRA is not “whatever you want is cool so long as you say Jesus Tol’ Me So up front”. It defines a very specific analysis that must be performed any time there’s a claim for a religious exception from some law or regulation.

                And no, conducting an Inquisition to determine the truthfulness of faith is not part of that analysis. Maybe that makes you mad. Unfortunately for your feelings, it’s part of the law, so, die mad?Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Burt Likko says:

                Well, maybe this is that scenario, and I needn’t complain about it being unrealistic, because it’s real.
                https://www.9and10news.com/2023/07/11/traverse-city-hair-salon-no-longer-servicing-lgbtq-members/
                It’s pretty clear that the business owner here is invoking freedom of speech; religion isn’t mentioned in the report at all. So here we see another request for a free speech exception to anti-discrimination laws. And one delivered with insulting contempt to boot.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Burt Likko says:

                You should listen to the news video on your link.

                It seems Michigan is in the process of passing a law to force desired pronouns to be used, i.e. it’s a felony if you don’t call a person who wants to be called “they” as “they”.

                So it’s a forced speech issue.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Google “Michigan law on pronouns” and read the very first result.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Nice to know that somebody bothered. I didn’t because it was obviously wrong, but confirmation is always welcome.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to CJColucci says:

                RE: I didn’t because it was obviously wrong…

                Canada was accused of something similar by higher functioning people not all that long ago.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Thank you Chip.

                Hmm… it looks like the owner of the hair place is making the same mistake the news crew did.Report

  5. DensityDuck says:

    “I continue to believe, as I wrote nine years ago…”

    Honestly, this entire column is pretty much a restatement of what you wrote nine years ago with the names scribbled over. “Corporations are morally distinct from their owners and employees when it suits me to think so. And slippery-slope reasoning is not fallacious when it’s me doing it.”

    After “Hobby Lobby” people like you confidently predicted a landslide of cases where plaintiffs claimed that this-or-that law violated their Suddenly Discovered Yet Still Honestly Felt Religious Beliefs with courts helpless to do anything but find in their favor. And that didn’t happen; see Miller v. Davis for an example. The Court’s opinion made it clear that the test described in the RFRA actually meant something and would be applied critically and neutrally.

    “[N]ine years after Hobby Lobby, the law is still made to privilege religion, and indeed a specific religion, to an unhealthy degree.”

    I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on EDD v. Smith, and on how the RFRA was passed with the intent of directly contravening that ruling.Report

  6. Dark Matter says:

    Discriminating against gays puts you in legal jeopardy; The Supremes’ reasoning was vague so that hasn’t changed.

    So if you have serious religious beliefs and if they’re strong enough to have you decide you have no choice but to slug it out in court, then you may win.

    For those of you who want a clear line, be careful what you ask for, you probably wouldn’t like the result. Religion has a level of protection in the Constitution that is higher than homosexuality.

    The Court deciding to make this unclear was probably a good thing.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

      This does not actually have anything to do with religion. It has to do with compelled speech.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to DavidTC says:

        So we are assured.

        As I wrote in the OP, we were assured nine years ago in a majority opinion by Justice Samuel Alito that OF COURSE the carving-out of a religious exception to the PPACA would never result in similar reasoning to later poke a similar hole in anti-discrimination law. Three Justices (Roberts, Thomas, and Alito) voted in the majority of both cases. …Maybe they just forgot?Report

    • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

      Religion has a level of protection in the Constitution that is higher than homosexuality.

      Really? Homosexuals are thus not full citizens? They don’t enjoy the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness? They are subject to religiously based persecution in a secular nation?Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

        The levels of protection in the Constitution aren’t fixed, and are highly debatable.

        Until very recently, there was no personal right to a firearm, or religious right to give alcohol to minors, or right to private sexual behavior.

        What constitutes a “sincerely held belief” is entirely arbitrary and ever-changing.

        There is a an argument being put forward right now that aborting a pregnancy is within the protection of religion.

        Is it? Well, if it can get 5 votes, then yeah it is.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

        I hope you’re just trolling now.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

          Why do you hope that?Report

          • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

            Because your argument is like saying that gay people lack rights because they’re not guns. It’s not even right enough to be wrong. It’s like you saw the words “religion”, “gay”, and “Constitution” and decided to Mad Lib them.Report

          • North in reply to Philip H says:

            Pinky’s point is religion/religious protections (both for and from mind) are explicitly and directly spelled out in the constitution whereas gay rights are not. In our modern times we’ve read protections for gay citizens into the constitution (and I’d say rightly so!) but it’s not literally spelled out in the original text which, to originalist constitutionalists, is a notable difference.Report

            • Burt Likko in reply to North says:

              Craig v. Boren, 429 U.S. 190 (1976). I suppose you could argue that Craig was wrongly-decided for the reasons just stated, but I don’t even see Clarence Thomas trying to go there.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to North says:

              This case was not decided on religious rights, it was decided on speech.

              Speech rights are pretty much absolute under the law, it takes a lot for the court to be okay with restricting them.

              Meanwhile, religious rights are, uh, pretty much allowed to be restricted by default. The laws can restrict people’s religious right to discriminate against gay people, just like it can restrict their religious right to practice consensual cannibalism or their religious right to start a sacred bonfire in their apartment or their religious right to walk around unclothed in public. The government is going to win any of those lawsuits. Religious rights are always, always, ALWAYS, a compromise with the rest of society. Mostly because there’s literally no possible way to be absolutist about this…religion can encompass the entirety of human existence and beliefs.

              There’s entire sets of caselaws about this WRT prisons, BTW. People with actual legitimate religions beliefs that are barred simply because the prison doesn’t want make very simple accommodations for it. Just, very trivial things, not actual laws but mere prison rules, in an environment that prisoners cannot leave…and maybe half the time the prisoners come out ahead. Sometime they win, sometimes they don’t, it’s a crapshot.You do not have some automatic right to do things just because they are required by your ‘religious beliefs’.

              OTOH freedom of speech isn’t a compromise, normally. It’s sometimes a compromise with _direct and immediate safety concerns_ or ‘Who gets to do the speech at this exact point in time and space’, but that’s about it. The courts are absolutist about speech because speech is a single, well-defined action, as opposed to ‘literally every aspect of human existence’ that religious beliefs can cover.

              So for the past several decades conservatives have been building cases that they _pretend_ are about religion, but actually were just decided on speech, but then they run around pretending it was decided over religion and that people have a _religious_ right to do that, when in reality the court just said ‘That is speech and thus cannot be prohibited or compelled by the government’.

              This is a deliberate attempt to move the Overton window of ‘What people think their religious rights are’.Report

            • Philip H in reply to North says:

              Yes well last I checked gay Americans and trans Americans don’t need further rights spelled out since, you know, they are Americans. Thus they are to be free from illegal search and seizure; free to speak or not; and free from state imposed religious burdens – including bigotry alleged to protect sincerely held religious beliefs. All things that accrue due to being Americans who happen to be gay. They are free to associate, free to petition for redress of grievance and – shockingly to many – free to marry and have sex with whomever they want since marriage and sex are totally absent from the constitution. As American citizens they enjoy every right as every other American citizen.

              Now yes this case was written so as to stand on compelled speech grounds. Doesn’t change the fact that the plaintiff was seeking relief from alleged compelled speech for religious reasons – reasons offered unique protection in our laws under a constitution that explicitly states that the government shall not select or enforce a state religion of any kind. If we really want to go original it’s then you can’t use religious beliefs or language to object to secular laws against any form of bigotry in a secular state.Report

  7. All religious beliefs are protected by the Constitution equally. It just happens that Christian beliefs about sexuality are more equal than others.Report

  8. InMD says:

    Maybe I’m wrong but I have a weird feeling this holding is in practice going to prove pretty narrow, just based on the weirdness of the statute (as PD Shaw pointed out) and the particulars of the stipulated facts.

    That said, I think Burt is right to wonder where the limits are of all this. As I said last time we discussed this case I’m not convinced it’s about religion or expression at all, but commerce. No one makes anyone go into the particular business of web design, nor do they require them to set up shop and advertise it to the general public. The whole position has an illogical special pleading quality to it that would allow people to have their cake and eat it too in a manner I struggle to read into the 1st Amendment. Sometimes there are trade offs and if a person’s religion prohibits him or her from serving the public it’s up to that individual to either compromise or find a different way to make a living.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to InMD says:

      “No one makes anyone go into the particular business of web design, nor do they require them to set up shop and advertise it to the general public.”

      amusing to see how “business is amoral, it’s all about da dolla, rule one is that the customer is always right and rule two is to always refer back to rule one” has been turned into liberal progressive dogma.

      “Sometimes there are trade offs and if a person’s religion prohibits him or her from serving the public it’s up to that individual to either compromise or find a different way to make a living.”

      Hm. So if my religion says I can’t work on certain days of the year, but my employer claims that due to the vagaries of scheduling they put me down for those days, then my only recourse is to quit? It’s obviously wrong to suggest the employer ought to hire someone else (or pay someone else more) to work those days instead of me?Report

      • InMD in reply to DensityDuck says:

        I’m not sure I’m the right person to accuse of following liberal progressive dogma. In fact I’m pretty sure I violate it all the time on a bunch of issues, including quite prominently at this site.

        But look, to your second point, I’m a semi-practicing Catholic. The state can’t close my church, it can’t discriminate against me for it, and it’s pretty well established that the state can prohibit discrimination in hiring and public accomodations. Overall I don’t demand any special treatment at my job and I don’t see a need to get any special carve outs for commercial activity based on where I may or may not be Sunday mornings. That’s the truce we make and I’m not interested in a lot of sob stories about it from any direction.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to InMD says:

          “The state can’t close my church”

          really

          because I recall several court cases over states doing exactly that in 2020

          “I don’t demand any special treatment at my job…I don’t see a need to get any special carve outs for commercial activity…”

          mmmhmm, so you aren’t offended by racist jokes therefore racist jokes oughtn’t be considered offensive?

          or maybe you’re telling me that your personal faith is one of convenience and convention, and you refuse to accept that anyone else might actually take it seriously?Report

          • InMD in reply to DensityDuck says:

            Yes, my religious practice is a total joke. But alas, nothing is cooler in 21st century America than sitting in a pew on Sunday and so I have no choice but to adhere to the convention. You know a way funnier joke though? It’s when people deplore the histrionic victim culture that prevails in influential progressive circles, not because it’s so weak on the merits, but because they feel they are the real victims of society.

            Anyway if you read the papers once in a while you’ll see municipal governments (rightly) lost in their attempt to treat churches differently during covid and in the work place slurs against a person based on religion are just as illegal as those based on race. Shocking, I know.Report