SCOTUS Ruling on Affirmative Action & Admissions: Read It For Yourself

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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76 Responses

  1. DavidTC says:

    Well, it’s good to know someone’s race can only affect admissions insofar as their grandparents were not allowed to attend and hence they do not qualify as a legacy admission.Report

  2. InMD says:

    I’m not sure it was really necessary to overturn Grutter given that the decision required a time limit for these programs. I guess it’s been 20 years instead of 25 but we all know the intent is to discriminate by race in perpetuity. Good riddance I say.Report

  3. LeeEsq says:

    Affirmative action is an example of a liberal policy preference that was a really tough sell politically. Besides the fact that most White Americans do not like it, so do most Asian Americans and if the polling is accurate nearly 2/3rds of Hispanic Americans. This means that there are more Americans opposed to Affirmative Action than in support of it.

    I’m wondering if it would have been better to take a less mealy mouth approach to affirmative action and just come out and say “because of the long history of structural racism against African Americans we have to implement affirmative action and other programs. Everybody else can just screw it.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq says:

      If they came out and said “We’re going to be helping the descendants of slaves and other African-Americans who are still suffering from the effects of Jim Crow”, maybe they could get away with that forever.

      But doing it under the banner of DIVERSITY!!!! means that you can bring in Nigerian Princes, the children of Senegalese Billionaires, and the great-grandchildren of Heile Selassie and say “look at how multicolored our campus is!”

      If you want to help Black college students, donate to the U of M and Michigan State. They’ve got more Black college students than the whole Ivy League combined*.

      *(my back of the envelope math said that the Ivy League has about 5500 Black students and the U of M/Michigan State has about 6000)Report

      • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

        Constitutional issues aside (as if one could really say that in our country), the strongest case for affirmative action existed 60+ years ago, when the country was 85 or more percent white and virtually every black American was a descendant of slaves and had personally lived under de jure or de facto Jim Crow. Back then you could make the case that the racial gerrymandering involved really was a remedy for a racially gerrymandered past. We are now so far away from that situation demographically, and getting so much further from it every day, that there’s no other explanation for it than a desire by some for a permanently racially gerrymandered future, damn how abhorrent it is to the liberal tradition and the ever more absurd results.

        Maybe Lee is right that you could justify something ongoing specifically targeted towards the descendants of slaves for a much longer period. But this idea that we need to impose a massive Asian penalty, treat Hispanics as different than any other wave of immigrants, or grant handicaps to more recent arrivals from Africa and the Caribbean (because who can tell the difference on a brochure?), all in the name of fighting an ever more nebulous definition of ‘white’ supremacy, is absurd.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to InMD says:

          I think legally that Affirmative Action had to be phrased in terms of diversity rather than remedying past sins because of Bakke or some other decision that I forgot. Framing it for diversity was good for a long time afterwards though even though everybody knew and liberals/leftists would say among themselves that this was about dealing with the long history of racism against the descendants of African-American slaves.

          There is a big tendency among many liberals and leftists in the United States to pretend that the demographics of the United States have changed since 1965 or that they don’t matter politically even though they do. They either treat all non-whites as the same despite all polling to the contrary or tell them to stuff it at times.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq says:

            The affirmative action discussion is also an example of the sort of abstract principle concealing an intuitive principle.

            The same abstract principle that objects to affirmative action should also lead them to object to legacy admissions.
            But…it doesn’t.

            People will feign an objection to legacy admissions but they don’t really mean it. For instance, there has been a 50 year campaign of political and legal forces grinding away at affirmative action, spending millions of dollars, writing countless books, grooming legal test cases.
            There isn’t an equivalent campaign against legacy admissions. No essays in National Review about “I was robbed of an Ivy League education by a rich donor’s son” .There isn’t a series of legal panels at the Federalist Society dedicated to forming legal arguments to end legacies.

            The debate has shown that the actual intuitive principle at work is that some people are entitled to assistance, and other people are not.Report

            • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              As somebody pointed out on the another blog, even advocates of affirmative action really don’t want to end legacy admissions because they want the kids who got in through affirmative action to have social access to those legacies. Plus ending legacy admissions is going to be legally difficult and proving a legacy got in through legacy is tough.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq says:

                I’m mostly reacting to how the ordinary person on the street views affirmative action, versus legacy.

                Like an essay about Joe Schmoe being denied in favor of a black kid gets a lot of people blood boilingly furious, but Joe being denied in favor of a rich kid gets a shrug and whatchagonnadoo.

                I think most Americans, even a lot of liberals, are very accepting of a sort of caste system of privilege and rank.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              If “legacy” means “couldn’t have gotten in without that” then that’s a problem.

              If “legacy” means “rich parent who used a money cannon on their kid to make them super successful”, then that’s not.

              If “legacy” means “super rich parent who bought a building for the school” then that’s rhetoric and not reality.

              For public schools legacy is about 6% of the student body, that probably means it’s not actually an issue. For Private schools the number is a lot higher but the school is a lot freer to do what they want.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                If “legacy” means “couldn’t have gotten in without that” then that’s a problem.

                That’s not how the schools that are doing this work.
                They take everyone who is eligible to attend, count up points they have been give (Which race can now no longer be included in.), apply a general sort, and whoever gets the most in each category, that’s who they admit.

                I.e., there are a certain number of slots allocated to legacy admissions, and those slots will go to legacy admissions. (Unless there are no applicants that qualify.)

                And it’s a rather large amount of slots assigned to legacy. It’s hard to tell for many schools, because they group people together, i.e., Harvard has a group of ‘athletic recruits, legacies, the children of faculty and staff, and applicants on the dean’s interest list (Aka, relatives of major donors and children of famous people)’ This group is called ALDC.

                These people make up _30%_ of the people accepted each year at Harvard, despite being only 5% of the applicants. Harvard is a reserving quite a lot of space for them. And the ALDC is 68% white. In fact, to look at it from the other direction, 43% all white students are ALDC!

                To repeat that: Over 4 out of 10 white students at Harvard managed to get in, or at least got bonuses to their points total so were more likely to get in, because of who their relatives are (staff, alumi, donors, or famous)…or they’re really good athletes who got recruited for that, but how many athletes are we even thinking Harvard has?Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

                Here’s an article that actually has the full table, a little less than halfway down:

                https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/views/2022/07/18/its-time-end-legacy-admissions-opinion

                I will recreate:

                Race – All Admitted Applicants/ALDC Admitted Applicants
                White – 40.3%/67.8%
                Asian American – 28.3%/11.4%
                African American – 11.0%/6.0%
                Hispanic – 12.6%/5.6%

                It’s almost as if this system was literally designed to admit more white people…which it was, legacy admissions were created to keep out Jews.

                Oh, and the article corrected something for me. Apparently, a lot of these _are_ indeed athletes…and the reason for that is the interesting fact is that Harvard recruits athletes for not only for football and baseball and track and the normal sports, but also skiing, golf, squash, fencing, crew, sailing, ice hockey, field hockey and lacrosse.

                Remember, we’re not talking about people who are just good at a sport…they have to be competing at the sport somewhere, almost always high school games, to be seen by recruiters. You can’t just, like, be good at it.

                How many Black people do we think have been recruited because they were expert fencers in their competitive high school fencing program that surely existed? I won’t say zero, maybe there have been one or two, but…wow, really unlikely. Just…they have every single rich white person sport, reserving slots for the person who is good at _sailing_, which is surely a very common high school sport that isn’t only done at like fifteen difference expensive private schools.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to DavidTC says:

                And this has been known since forever.

                But hasn’t gained a flood of lawsuits and legislation because, and I repeat, rigged admissions are only politically unpopular when the rigging violates the social hierarchy.

                This is why so many people who appear to have absolutely no dog in the fight, become very emotionally invested in the issue affirmative action.

                Because the dog they have in the fight is the preservation or reform of the social hierarchy.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Because of an ugly history we decided race is a protected class. Ergo we don’t allow discrimination based on race.

                Affirmative Action discriminates based on race.
                That seems heinous and unacceptable on the face of it. There are other problems, why do Obama’s and other black elites’ children need AA?

                Pointing to one injustice, and it’s not even clear these other issues are injustices, doesn’t jump to “we allow this, ergo we should discriminate based on skin color”.

                If you want to justify AA, then you need to justify AA.

                The really damning part is I don’t see anyone attempting that. It’s assumed AA is good, but without that assumption IDK why it’s supposed to be good, must less justify racial discrimination.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Would passing a law against legacy admissions be constitutional?

              Because passing a law against affirmative action is, apparently, constitutional.

              Personally, I think that Massachusetts should pass a law against legacy admissions. I’m wondering why they haven’t.Report

          • InMD in reply to LeeEsq says:

            I think you’re right on the legal analysis about why it played out how it did. They made the case to SCOTUS as it existed in 2003, i.e. come up with a reason that O’Connor could kick the can. She obliged but AA advocates didn’t get the message that AA’s days were numbered.

            To me the larger issue is the bad things the debate says about the state of America’s understanding of itself. And I don’t mean this in some kind of trite BSDI sort of way. More that we’ve got a cross partisan, cross cultural consensus that all the best things about the US are actually in some way evil. Like, we’ve reached a point where non-white people can come to this country from places with actual caste systems, various failed Marxist experiments, and banana republics, and succeed to unimaginable degrees. But conservatives just can’t make peace with the face of that success being a lot more global and cosmopolitan, no matter that it grows out of one of the more positive visions of traditional American values. Meanwhile the dominant strain of progressivism can’t get over that it isn’t going to create a coalition of the oppressed, with loyal voting blocs demanding spoils like black Americans had no choice but to be in the latter part of the 20th century. As if that outcome was a desirable thing, as opposed to the natural result of enslaved black people and their descendants being specifically excluded and oppressed in a way unlike any others, including other non white immigrant groups.Report

            • LeeEsq in reply to InMD says:

              From what I understand, meaning I heard this from other people, high caste Indians tend to go along with the existing social system in the United States because it makes sense to them that there be hierarchy. In fact India has affirmative action written in to their Constitution for Dalits and others and the debates are near crystal image of the United States.Report

              • InMD in reply to LeeEsq says:

                Different countries have different approaches, that I think can work. But for every Singapore where minority status is successfully treated as an official designation with specific privileges and responsibilities that go with the status there’s a Lebanon or South Africa. To me the only path for the US, with its particular history, is color blindness.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to InMD says:

              +1Report

            • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

              O’Connor was the worst. In many ways she did more damage than the explicitly partisan justices. They at least were going to be consistent. Lower courts can apply consistent reasoning, even if it’s bad. There’s less incentive to roll the dice when you can reasonably predict the outcome.

              There’s a lot of O’Connor in Roberts.Report

            • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

              As for this particular ruling, it’s the first step forward we’ve made in racial matters in a long time. I can’t say “kudos” because the old status was shameful, but it’s good that we’re no longer betraying our national ideals this way.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                I think it’s the right ruling, particularly for where we are in 2023, but I’d encourage you to broaden your mind a bit on the institution that is the court. Hard, principled, let the pieces fall where they may jurisprudence is valuable. Sometimes it has to be that way and the court needs to be able to make unpopular but right on the merits decisions. Not that the abomination of modern AA is popular, but I’m sure you get what I mean.

                Keep in mind though that SCOTUS has no army or police to go out and enforce its writ. All it has is its own legitimacy, and every time it goes out on a limb, it creates the risk of a constitutional crisis by the possibility of the more powerful branches simply ignoring the holding. So it also needs the institutionalists, who sometimes punt, or split hairs, or find a convenient way not to decide an important issue. Without the push and pull you’d end up with serious breakdowns in the rule of law where all sides lose.

                I think it’s good that the CJ leans in that direction, and its why Thomas’ and Alitos’ antics that have been coming out really are such a problem.Report

              • KenB in reply to InMD says:

                its why Thomas’ and Alitos’ antics that have been coming out really are such a problem.

                I think this cuts both ways — entities that care about the legitimacy of the court should make sure a full accounting has been done, ideally with representation from both sides, before releasing such reports.

                When the CT article came out, several here said with confidence that Thomas was an outlier — now lo and behold, the same left-leaning outlet has found fault with another conservative justice. Will the people who said Thomas was a one-off react to this by calling their prior confidence into question, or will they just point to it and say “see? conservatives are even more corrupt than we thought!”?

                As an independent observer, i’m even less ready to take these at face value as antics that are specific to conservative justices — it looks more like people on the left are actively undermining confidence in the conservatives on the court, perhaps to push for court-packing again when the time is right. Let’s see a full accounting by an independent or cross-partisan entity please.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB says:

                The court’s legitimacy depends on its arguments being persuasive and delivering justice to a critical mass of people.

                When a large enough body of people see their arguments as facile and absurd, and their rulings delivering injustice, the court is seen as merely another tool of politics.Report

              • Philip H in reply to KenB says:

                The newest SCOTUS Justice recused herself from the Harvard admissions case because she used to be on their Board. Not still is – used to be. Justice Kagen has been reported to refuse bagels brought to her by her highschool classmates because it might run afoul of the few rule sin place about undue influence and gifts. One can find Justice Sotomayor disclosing all sorts of trips paid for by others back to the start of her term.

                One of these things is not like the others.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                That’s fake news.

                Kagen recused herself because of her participation as solicitor general with this case when it was before the court of appeals.Report

              • InMD in reply to KenB says:

                I personally would welcome such an auditing, no matter what it found. I think the only people qualified to be judges are the ones that wouldn’t let a friend buy them a coffee in a cafeteria line, and that justices of the supreme court should lead by that example.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to InMD says:

                That’s fine, but where do we want to go with that?

                First of all, let’s admit we care less about plane tickets and buying coffee than we care about the current balance of the Supreme Court.

                Thomas is a target for the same reason we have insane amounts of drama and ginned up accusations during nominations.

                He may also have done things we should remove him for, but do that without preserving the balance he brings instantly takes us to court packing. We’ll see a ton more ginned up accusations and the court will lose legitimacy just from that.

                It was bad enough that we had 5 phony rape accusations during nominations. I don’t want that to be a yearly event.

                One way to deal with this is to let Team Red pick Thomas’ replacement. If that’s unthinkable, then the real problem Thomas brings is the 6-3 balance and not his personal behavior.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I don’t think 6-3 is balanced . . .

                Beyond that he and Alito has along history (apparently) of taking significant travel and other economic goods from specific rich people who end up have significant business before the court. Its illegal for me to do so for anything over $25 a year from anyone with business in front of my agency. Not me, my agency. So why exactly is this ok for them?Report

              • Daniel Buss in reply to Philip H says:

                I don’t think 6-3 is balanced . . .

                It’s the current balance.

                If we’re actually interested in maintaining extremely high court ethics then we can’t also use that as a tool to change the political make up of the court.

                Maintaining court ethics needs to be seriously non-political and bipartisan. So Team Blue gains nothing from making false accusations and pretending to believe them. They’d be replacing an old Red Justice with a young one.

                Under those rules, imho we probably have no interest in removing any of them.

                The motivation here is transparently changing the make up of the court and not maintaining court ethics. That’s why we have these made up stories on how super ethical the Blue justices are.Report

              • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

                “I’m sure you get what I mean”

                Why does anyone say that to me on Fridays? In all seriousness, I’m not sure what you were getting at.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                Just noting that this holding we’re talking about isn’t one that goes against popular sentiment.Report

              • LeeEsq in reply to InMD says:

                At least for conservative dominated Supreme Courts in American history, most assumed that the people and politicians who disagreed with them would grumble a lot but would basically follow orders as good lawful citizens.Report

  4. DensityDuck says:

    It’s useful to keep in mind a couple of things in this discussion:

    * “Why don’t they just pass a law about it, there have been plenty of laws that countermanded Supreme Court rulings nobody liked” We tried that with RFRA and that’s how we got Burwell v. Hobby Lobby

    * “How can you argue that people shouldn’t just compete on objective measures of ability?” Because in most cases when you objectively measure ability you find that the most objectively-able applicants are white/asian/male. There is actual data on this. Mostly it’s because white/asian/male have the wealth to practice and develop the ability (sometimes straight cash, sometimes more second-order things like “free time to devote to study instead of needing to work” or “family that supports and encourages instead of ignoring or not being able to help”).Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to DensityDuck says:

      My 4th daughter is in High School and it’s time to spend a lot of time gearing up for the SAT. I’ll probably spend $100. I could probably just tell her to use online sources which are free and have the same effect.

      My expectation is the problem isn’t “can’t afford $100 for study guides”. I could spend a lot more, even thousands of dollars, but as far as I can tell that’s more virtue signaling and not really value added. For that matter from experience with the previous three girls I’m pretty sure that my $100 isn’t value added because there are free online sources. At best I’m signaling to her that this is important.

      The problem is “supports and encourages” and not “can’t afford $100 for study guides”.Report

  5. North says:

    I think Freddie is pretty much spot on and cogent when it comes to AA.
    https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/affirmative-action-thoughts-in-an
    It’s a bit symbol for the left but as a substantive policy it’s rather ineffectual and as a principle it’s on iffy spongey ground.Report

  6. Jaybird says:

    One thing that I’ve noticed in the past day or so is the whole issue of the morality of pointing out that someone is a beneficiary of Affirmative Action.

    Was Clarence Thomas a beneficiary of Affirmative Action? If you ask him, he will say that he wasn’t. He says that Affirmative Action made everybody assume that he just got what he got in life because it was handed to him instead of him working for it.

    Was Ketanji Brown Jackson a beneficiary of Affirmative Action? Well, the folks who say that she was are being pilloried for saying so.

    Somewhat related, there’s apparently a funny joke going around Indian-American twitter: “Now that AA is over, what will be your excuse for your son not getting into Rutgers?”Report

  7. LeeEsq says:

    A bigger part of the debate is how do people get into college. Many countries use some variety of the entrance exam system. There is either a national entrance exam and your university depends on how you did and slots available or entrance exams for each university like in Japan. America uses a combination of GPA, standardized test scores, and extracurricular activities plus individual admission applications and other informal practices for a variety of reason. Every system is capable of being gamed because even in entrance exam countries, wealthy parents can pay for more tutoring than middle class or working class parents.

    The only system that might not be gamed would a straight out lottery for college admissions. Like everybody with say a GPA and standardized test scores at certain level would go into the pot for Harvard, Yale, or Princeton and would be selected through a lottery mechanism. Same with other universities in the United States.Report

  8. Philip H says:

    Its also worth noting that we have data on what happens when you remove Affirmative Action from higher education:

    Here’s the upshot: A quarter-century after California banned race-based admissions at public universities, school officials say they haven’t been able to meet their diversity and equity goals — despite more than a half billion dollars spent on outreach and alternative admissions standards.

    “Black and Hispanic students saw substantially poorer long-run labor market prospects as a result of losing access to these very selective universities,” Bleemer told NPR. “But there was no commensurate gain in long-run outcomes for the white and Asian students who took their place.”

    Black and Latino students were also less likely to earn graduate degrees or enter lucrative STEM fields.

    “If you follow them into the labor market, for the subsequent 15 or 20 years, they’re earning about 5% lower wages than they would have earned if they’d had access to more selective universities under affirmative action,” Bleemer said.

    Still, the California schools are unable to meet their diversity goals systemwide. Chang says his school is not where it wants to be. It still enrolls far fewer Black and Latino students than their share of California high school graduates — a problem it didn’t have before the affirmative action ban.

    https://www.npr.org/2023/06/30/1185226895/heres-what-happened-when-affirmative-action-ended-at-california-public-collegesReport

    • LeeEsq in reply to Philip H says:

      Affirmative action and Latino Americans are interesting in an abstract sense. Nearly all polling on political support for affirmative action among Latinos show that the majority of them oppose it. This isn’t even a slight majority. It is nearly 2/3rds according to a 2019 poll. Latino activists love affirmative action but most of the rest are really opposed to it. Affirmative action also seems to really help Latino Americans though, so should we basically impose it on them even though most of them don’t want it?Report

      • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq says:

        LatinX, Lee.

        LatinX.

        I mean, if we’re discussing things that are good for that community despite most of them not wanting it.Report

      • Philip H in reply to LeeEsq says:

        Affirmative Action policies aren’t imposed on the recipients though.Report

      • Michael Cain in reply to LeeEsq says:

        I was thinking about Latinos while I was reading the post. They’re now the largest majority group in the US (18% compared to Blacks at 12%). While I was working for the legislature here in Colorado I encountered a number of Latino business groups that didn’t seem as concerned about college admission as they were about colleges helping Latino kids succeed once they were there. Lots of first-in-family students. My perception — quite possibly in error — was that they weren’t generally concerned about elite schools yet. They were looking to have Latino accountants, generalist lawyers, IT support, etc.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Michael Cain says:

          Being of immigrant or recent immigrant vintage, many Latinos haven’t internalized the importance of elite university education yet. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Latino activists that are most into affirmative action are people whose families have been in the United States for generations.Report

      • North in reply to LeeEsq says:

        I mean, it bears remembering, that AA actually is significant/relevant/material only if you’re one of that incredibly tiny minority of elite educated people who’re scrabbling for a slow in an elite university. Anywhere else and the universities will simply give everyone who applies and meets their minimal criteria a spot.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to North says:

          I think until recently competition for slots at many elite and even semi-elite institutions was fierce. Only the recent demographic cliff that started because of the recession has made things less fierce. Getting into NYU or Vanderbilt might not get you the same inside edge as Harvard or Yale but they weren’t easy either.Report

      • PD Shaw in reply to LeeEsq says:

        I attended a high affirmative action school that in the early 90s had about in coming class of (almost) 20% African-American, 20% Latino, and 20% Jewish. The Latinos were mostly drawn from the elite classes of Latin America and were not visible minorities. In contrast, I don’t recall any African immigrants, but mostly these were the sons and daughters of white collar professionals, receiving some form of tuition discounts. As to Jews, the school’s origins date back to when they were barred from many/most universities, so if affirmative action can be considered to include ‘open a school that will admit a discriminated minority,’ then that was here as well.

        I think Justice Powell’s diversity justification is dated and reflects the experience of a Virginia WASP from the early 20th century. Diversity was not about benefitting Latino Americans, diversity was about the opportunities for majority culture to interact with minorities, gaining new experience and new insights to the others. Quotas and set-asides weren’t allowed because just a few exemplars of any group satisfy the objectives.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

      Why should there be diversity and equity goals in the first place?Report

      • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

        Because we live in a diverse nation and need to address past economic, social, religious and racial inequities?

        I mean Really? That’s the best you have?Report

        • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

          You’re taking the phrase “diversity and equity goals” at face value. Diversity is a good thing, but it shouldn’t have a set of numeric goals. As for equity, if it’s defined as equality of outcome, I oppose it.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

            Why yes I do take it at face value. And actually a numeric goal is relatively easy to set, in as much as we know the proportion of various minorities in our population and few of these university campuses have student bodies at even that level of representation.

            As to equity, my favorite definition is:

            Equity refers to fair treatment for all people, so that the norms, practices, and policies in place ensure identity is not predictive of opportunities or workplace outcomes. Equity differs from equality in a subtle but important way. While equality assumes that all people should be treated the same, equity takes into consideration a person’s unique circumstances, adjusting treatment accordingly so that the end result is equal.

            Put another way,

            Diversity is where everyone is invited to the party
            Inclusion means that everyone gets to contribute to the playlist
            Equity means that everyone has the opportunity to dance/experience the music

            Report

            • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

              Well, I’m glad you didn’t hide behind a softer definition of equity. But both that definition of equity and the idea of numeric goals for diversity are unjust.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

              If there are a limited number of guests allowed at the party, at that point you’re distributing a scarce resource.

              I can appreciate saying that you want there to be X Black people there, Y Asians, Z LatinX, and Aleph Jews, but if you set up a numeric chart, you’re probably going to want a way to rank the people who apply to be on the guest list.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

                Quotas are illegal… but is that true for private Universities or is it just Public? Could Harvard, as a private U, just openly say they’re going to have quotas and be done with it?

                Looking it up…

                Bakke, 438 U.S. 265, 324 (1978). OFCCP’s affirmative action regulations expressly forbid the use of quotas or set asides, provide no legal justification for a contractor to extend preferences on the basis of a protected status, and do not supersede merit selection principles. Oct 28, 2022

                Hmm… if they could do that, then they could say “no Blacks” or “no Jews” or something so maybe that’s the line of reasoning.

                Affirmative Action keeps tripping over it wanting to use seriously racist tools for good ends.Report

              • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

                They can still be subject to Title VI of the Civil Rights Act if they receive federal funding. Many also bind themselves to non-discrimination in various ways contractually and in the tax code. IIRC the Trump admin trolled Princeton on this after some overwrought admissions of systemic racism in 2020.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

              You can invite everyone to the party or you can have a very exclusive party, but you can’t do both of those things.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                This decision means fewer people of different kinds will be invited to the party.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                But more Asians.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                Why is it outright evil to say “no blacks allowed” but just fine to say “no Asians”?

                These tools are heinous. We’ve learned that time and again. Every time we pick up these tools we become heinous.

                Your A+ example will still have a seat. Preventing 4 of his C+ friends from taking seats from A+ Asians is a good thing, not a bad thing.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                where did anyone say or act on no more Asians? Not fling rhetoric, but actually prevent? Cause this is the world we live in outside the ruling:

                Harvard University admitted a record number of Asian American students to its class of 2027, a move experts are wary of celebrating given the drop in admissions of most other minority groups. It comes as the Supreme Court continues deliberations on a lawsuit brought against Harvard by a right-wing group that alleges race-conscious admissions discriminate against white and Asian students.

                In a breakdown of the incoming class released by the university last week, Harvard revealed that 29.9% of admitted applicants are Asian American. It’s a 2.1% jump from last year’s number.

                “It’s been part of a long-term trend,” admissions Dean William R. Fitzsimmons told The Harvard Crimson. “The percentages have been going up steadily. It’s not a surprise.”

                There are a couple of possible reasons for this, said Julie Park, an associate professor at the University of Maryland who studies racial equity in high education. One could be an increase in Asian American legacy admits, which favors children of Harvard alumni in the admissions process. It also coincides with a population growth of Asian American young adults and high school graduates in the U.S. generally.

                “Race-conscious admissions can be very dynamic and institution-specific,” she told NBC News. “Under race-conscious admissions, Harvard has a very sizable Asian American class. … It’s just a natural byproduct that you’re just going to numerically have at Harvard, unless they step away from legacy admissions, which I actually think they should.”

                https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/harvard-admits-record-number-asian-american-students-black-latino-admi-rcna77923Report

              • Philip H in reply to Philip H says:

                And further to the point, Asian American admissions to the Ivy’s have been growing for at least a decade, just as their admissions to other universities grew:

                Nonetheless, the aggregate data reported here suggest that something odd happened at elite schools in general over the past two decades. While the Asian share of the college-age population grew steadily, and was clearly reflected in the percent of Asians at many types of colleges, not to mention several measures of academic achievement, that percent at the most elite colleges stalled for years—and then, around 10 to 15 years ago, started growing again.

                https://manhattan.institute/article/racial-preferences-on-campus-trends-in-asian-enrollment-at-u-s-collegesReport

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                where did anyone say or act on no more Asians? Not fling rhetoric, but actually prevent?

                That Harvard (etc) does this is one of the basic facts of the case.

                If they don’t get percentage of population they’ll change the rules so they get percentage of population… or in other words, they have quotas.

                If you say (or just set up rules which say) you’re going to take a C+ Black over an A+ Asian because you have too many Asians and not enough Blacks… then what does “too many” mean if not a quota?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                And yet admission rates for Asian Americans have risen at Harvard and other Ivy’s for over a decade . . . and at a significantly higher proportion then Asian American representation in the population . . . .Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                True. But what you said doesn’t disagree with what I said.

                The expected result from not being able to use these tools is Asian attendance will increase a lot, because they’re way more successful than we want to let them be.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Do you really think Harvard has C+ students under consideration in the admissions office?Report

              • They’re called “Legacies”, Slade.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                Do you really think Harvard has C+ students under consideration in the admissions office?

                Yes. There was a chart which listed your chances, by race, of getting into Harvard cross matched with your grades.

                So a Black A+ student had a crazy high acceptance rate while the Asian A+ was about 15%.

                Go down two levels and Asians with a C had a zero percent chance of getting in and the Blacks had about a 15% percentage chance.

                In English: They can hit their Asian quota by just taking A students. They can’t with Blacks so they have to dig deeper.

                Of course this isn’t described as “lowering their standards” or “quotas”, but in practice the effect is that.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

        You should probably talk to a conservative.

        They are very concerned that there isn’t a diversity of opinion on college campuses, and that there is persistent discrimination against socially conservative Christians.

        They often write essays which point to statistics showing how these groups are underrepresented among faculty and provide examples of microaggressions where a conservative white man will get shouted down or excluded from discussions.

        Or others will write entire books about how they were compelled to use pronouns they disagreed with, and like a dominant lobster, refused to do so at great peril to their career, ultimately leading to a bout with drug addiction which required a lengthy stay in a Russian facility where they recovered only by cleaning their room every day and standing up straight.

        I can provide you a reading list if you want to get started.Report

  9. Chip Daniels says:

    Statement from Harvard University:

    Harvard University, as in accordance with your founding religious principles as a divinity school, asserts the religious liberty right to admit students by whatever criteria does not violate our principles of conscience.

    Welp.
    Hard to argue with them there.Report

  10. Slade the Leveller says:

    The majority spent 48 pages summarizing The Bell Curve. Great work.Report