Mass Shooting Facts and Figures

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

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73 Responses

  1. Philip H says:

    Depending on your polling, between 67% and 70% of Americans support universal background checks, closing gun show loopholes, red flag laws and waiting periods. That takes in a sizable number of gun owners- me included. None of those things are national law. Some are state law. The “sensible proposals” are still fought on the grounds they burden “responsible gun owners.”

    Given all that – what’s your solution?Report

    • Burt Likko in reply to Philip H says:

      This. Anything that makes it even the tiniest bit of inconvenience between literally anyone and literally any weapon is met with howls of “Jack booted authoritarianism!” “You don’t believe in the Constitution!” “This either ends now or at Dachau!” etc., it’s hard to imagine gun rights activists agreeing to anything, ever, no matter how popular. The NRA has become a cultural advocacy organization going well beyond gun ownership rights and the tiniest shred of compromise triggers the low-trust vagus nerve.

      I basically accept Jaybird’s hypothesis that all these great ideas for finding common ground and sensible compromise require a high trust society, and when we are dealing with weapons and peoples’ need for them, we’re confronting the bases expression of their low-trust personalities. They might trust in other arenas, but not this one.

      I also accept Our Tod’s hypothesis that other facets of the conservative coalition prevent us from addressing violence in other ways.
      https://twitter.com/RTodKelly/status/1640462152296431616?s=20

      IOW, we’re boxed into a political stasis between 1) advocacy groups preying on low trust about guns specifically, 2) othering preying on low trust for Democrats and their coalition partners generally, 3) “fiscal conservatism” preventing spending on anything else that might help, and 4) the vat breeding of Federalist Society clonejudges demanded by the religious faction of the GOP.

      So far as I can tell, what tge GOP will pay for are more cops. Even at their ideal level of function, cops do not prevent violence, they clean up and investigate after it hapoens.Report

      • InMD in reply to Burt Likko says:

        As someone who is liberal but generally on the other side of this there is real meat to the objection about failure to enforce the laws we have. On the one hand we have demands for more and more legislation of dubious value beyond the margins but on the other we have a serious press for not prosecuting people caught violating on the books gun laws (or committing other felonies) to the fullest extent of the law, despite that being the most basic and straightforward avenue to denying someone a firearm.

        Now, I’m also a big believer in CJ reform, but you also have to be ready to navigate the trade offs. In this country every time someone is pled down to a misdemeanor or goes into diversion for a suspended sentence or nolle pros’ed or something to that effect that person is still going to be able to go out and get a gun. Being harder on people of course has other downsides. But it all starts there, at that most basic level, of what you are willing to do to people that violate the rules and what other priorities you are willing to compromise towards the end of fewer firearm related deaths and injuries. As long as the answer is ‘not much’ it makes sense that people who value gun rights would say no to new laws.Report

        • Mike Dwyer in reply to InMD says:

          When people routinely don’t follow laws, it is an indictment of the people, or the law?

          The same goes for enforcement. Why aren’t these laws being enforced?Report

          • InMD in reply to Mike Dwyer says:

            I don’t think there are easy answers to either of those questions. To the extent we are talking about a situation where a person is caught in possession of a firearm during commission of some other crime it seems like it’s very likely to be the person. To the extent the only crime is possessing the firearm it may be, but isn’t necessarily, the law.

            On the enforcement issue I think entire books have been written on why it is the way it is.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Mike Dwyer says:

            When people routinely don’t follow laws, it is an indictment of the people, or the law?

            It’s an indication that we’re at the limit of what the gov can do.

            Ignoring rampage because it’s stupidly rare, we have the following driving the numbers.

            1) Suicide… except our suicide numbers are largely in line with our gun-free peers. Removing guns from the home of someone who has depression is probably a good thing. However if we were totally gun free via a magic wand, we might still reasonably have the rates we do.

            2) Homicide… largely driven by some extremely violent subcultures. If we’re going to do something about via gun control, then it’s not “all zips enforce these laws”, it’s “we put a lot of resources into law enforcement on these zip codes”.

            That’s going to look seriously racist and also like over policing. We probably end up in “army of occupation” territory.

            Because our politicians want to look like they’re doing something and also don’t want to look racist, we end up with “let’s pass a law that assumes everyone is equally likely to commit murder” and get push back from the rest of society because the law looks stupid from the point of view of someone who lives in a zero murder zip code.Report

            • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

              It only looks racist in the context of our severely under accountable, unprofessional, frankly under funded police resources. I understand there is at this point a cottage industry of groups and (mostly, rich, white) attention seekers ready to claim the order of the clouds in the sky is a severe vestige of racism and white supremacy but the vast majority of people in those zip codes do not like living with violence, especially to the point it makes normal life impossible. Those are the people who we should care about. They also (rightly and understandably) don’t want to be treated like criminals themselves when they are not, or second class citizens by virtue of where they live.

              This isn’t some insurmountable problem where we’re stuck picking between the police as occupying rabble or the wild west. The least controversial gun law is the one that says felons are prohibited persons and there’s no reason not to have professional police forces looking out for them and for prosecutors to throw the book at them no matter what color they are.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to InMD says:

                It only looks racist in the context of our severely under accountable, unprofessional, frankly under funded police resources.

                This is naïve. The death of a violent lunatic is presented as racist because he was black and the guy who killed him was white.

                A large amount of society checks outputs, not inputs.

                the vast majority of people in those zip codes do not like living with violence, especially to the point it makes normal life impossible

                They’re still going to be out there insisting that outputs matter and these outputs are racist. They’re also going to view the cops as an occupying army and refuse to deal with them.

                We have claims right now that the cops and the rest of society is creating these murder rates. Something something poverty, something something redlining, something something history of racism.

                The basic concept that culture is the root problem is unacceptable, so policies which are based on that are also unacceptable. The only acceptable root cause is racism. So we need to lower the murder rate by fighting racism.Report

              • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I disagree and I think it’s accepting the faulty premises of a handful of grifters and media activists. Part of the problem is that no one is willing to tell those voices to shut up then go out and get results.Report

              • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

                I think you and Dark Matter are both right. Internally, the black community knows what the problem is and wants their streets back. But externally, they present a solid front and promote people who deny the problem. Beyond that, when you get to the zero-proficiency school districts, at that point the majority doesn’t understand or care.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                Matt Yglesias must read the OT comment section. He has a post this morning that touches on the dynamics in play, at least in DC, with a focus on the allocation of resources:

                https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-spatial-misallocation-of-police

                I’m not one to talk up Vincent Gray as a politician but MY makes the point that council members representing SE are more ‘law and order’ than those from the wealthier, less violent areas. Now, it’s fair to say that the final policy product that comes out of Democratic party politics in these situations may not end up reflecting the sentiments of those voters and their representatives (lots of issues are like that) but I’m not sure it’s such an always has been always will be situation. I know it’s been memory holed but urban black politicians were part of the tough on crime coalitions in the 80s and early 90s.Report

              • Mike Dwyer in reply to Dark Matter says:

                “We have claims right now that the cops and the rest of society is creating these murder rates. Something something poverty, something something redlining, something something history of racism.”

                But those actually ARE the primary drivers of crime in black communities. So… shouldn’t we be looking at that?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Mike Dwyer says:

                But those actually ARE the primary drivers of crime in black communities.

                This is the claim. It doesn’t look correct.

                Person A shoots person B because they feel disrespected. Often in front of or involving a girl. That’s the brief summation of a LOT of these killings, so it shouldn’t be a shock that it’s the summation of the most recent post here at OT (the baseball one).

                So… does being poor make you a criminal? Poor communities that don’t enjoy this problem seem to disprove this. What about when person A and person B are not poor?

                Businesses will refuse to invest in neighborhoods where this is typical, so I expect this culture creates poverty.

                Back when rich whites did this sort of thing we called it “dueling”. We had 16 American politicians killed in duels and we became a country after this sort of thing was on the way out. Andrew Jackson did 103 duels.

                So no, this is likely not a poverty thing, this is a culture thing. If it’s a culture thing then the “war on poverty” would likely have little to no impact. If it’s a poverty thing then the war on poverty should have reduced this a lot.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Poverty goes hand in hand with something I’ll call short horizons, but could also be called high discount rate or low impulse control. A poor person who plans, gets an education, and saves what he can isn’t likely to be poor forever, and a rich person who disregards those things better be really rich or he’s going to end up broke.

                It’s not simply that short horizons cause poverty though. Poverty can cause short horizons. High interest rates, the chance of not making it to high school graduation, et cetera. It may take the people in my first paragraph a couple of generations to move out of poverty or wealth, and many may not make it at all.

                Culture, individual actions, and economics are all interconnected. That doesn’t mean that fixing one will necessarily fix the others, but it may be part of a solution.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                This is true.
                No one has ever discovered the causal variable for crime.
                We have a lot of correlations, but plenty of exception.

                Crime among the underclass tends to be violent crime, while crime among the privileged class tends towards nonviolent crime.

                We know that people are groupish and when people are included within a group they tend to abide by the norms.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Dark Matter says:

                In average, between 1588 and 1608 more than ten thousand gentlemen were killed in duels in the name of honour… and that is just among the nobility, without the bourgeoisie and peasantry. That is two noblemen dead by duelling each week. It is estimated that six thousand gentlemen died due to duelling during the reign of Henri II, from 1547 to 1559. Another eight thousand during the reign of Henri IV, 1572 to 1610, with two thousand dying in 1606 alone and four thousand dying in 1607.

                https://partylike1660.com/duels-the-forbidden-fights-for-honour/

                That’s nobles, who were at most 5% of the population, which itself was 4,110,000 in 1600. That’s 200k Nobles. It’s also a collective self murder rate which bounces between about the same as the nastier zipcodes in Chicago and about 10x worse.

                It was outlawed in the 1200’s and then various other times over the centuries. Just like now, it was illegal at the time and viewed as a problem.

                So we’ve seen this cultural thing before a LOT over the centuries. Young men killing each other over respect, which is often going to mean “over women”.

                Given how often and how widespread this has occasionally been, it might even be the default nature of humanity.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to InMD says:

                Underfunded? In Chicago, where I live, the 2022 PD budget was nearly $2 billion. This translates to nearly $700 per capita.

                https://igchicago.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Understanding-the-City-of-Chicago-Police-Departments-Budget-updated.pdfReport

              • InMD in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                The US is middle of the pack on police spending for OECD countries and not particularly high on the officer per capita rankings. Does this mean we need millions more cops in the middle of nowhere where crime isn’t an issue? No. Does it mean we need more police driving around in cruisers responding to 911 calls? Also no. But it does mean we need more bodies doing regular foot patrols in high crime areas. It’s the only thing that seems to have some evidence of working when it comes to lowering violent crime, which itself is usually pretty concentrated.

                Anyway to the topic of the OP that makes a lot more sense to me than writing something else about guns in the criminal code and assuming it’s going to do something all the other stuff about guns written in the criminal code never seems to.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to InMD says:

                Completely agree. Enforcement of existing gun laws varies from state to state. Straw purchasing of guns in Indiana is a major problem here in Chicago.

                But, honestly, if you want a gun in this country, and can’t get one, you’re not even trying. Absent a consensus of the voting public, nothing is going to happen with guns in the good ol’ U S of A.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                “if you want a gun in this country, and can’t get one, you’re not even trying. ”

                Have you ever tried? Or is this one of those things like pornography in the school library, where you’ve never actually gone to look but you’re damn sure it’s just like you think it is and you’re very upset about that?Report

        • Burt Likko in reply to InMD says:

          There was a moment in the mid-2010’s that conservatives explored criminal justice reform and I saw cause for trans-partisan progress, hope that it could lead to a more intelligently-run system with less overall crime. What a welcome event that was.

          Something happened to that moment, that spark of possibility. I honestly don’t know what it was. Trump and the rise of nationalism? Maybe, but maybe not. But it’s gone now. Reform prosecutors are the whipping boys and girls of local conservative political groups everywhere now.Report

  2. Mike Dwyer says:

    “Anyway you slice it, handguns are the preferred weapons of criminals, and that includes active shooters and mass shooters. This may shock you because of the emphasis that is placed on “assault weapon” bans as a solution to the problem, but if we look to the data, we see that this strategy is misdirected.”

    You convinced me. So… handguns are the problem we should be focusing on.Report

  3. Grung_e_Gene says:

    More Guns = More Gun Violence
    More Guns =/= Less Crimes
    Thererfore more guns = Americans less safe
    Q.E.D.Report

  4. Jaybird says:

    Saw this headline and someone else pointed out that it’d be one that Norm MacDonald would have read on Weekend Update:

    What are we going to do to ensure that handguns don’t get into the hands of people we deem incompetent to stand trial?Report

    • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

      He’s not competent to stand trial, but more than competent at shooting people in the head. On the one hand, we should congratulate a teen for finding something he’s very competent at. On the other, though, if you’re very competent at shooting people, you should also become competent at standing trial. Because no matter how good you are at shooting people, if you’re not good in the courtroom, eventually they’re going to make you stop. “See that guy? Yeah, that’s Tom. Very good at shooting people. He shot people all the time. But he was so bad as a defendant that his career as a head-shooter was cut short.”

      You just have to hear it in Norm MacDonald’s voice.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

      What are “WE” doing?

      Well, if “WE” means “Liberals” the answer is a slew of red flag laws, registration and licensing proposals and improved mental health care.

      If “WE” means “conservatives” the answer is “standing on the sidelines making armpit fart noises.”Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Really? From here it looks like you guys are making sure that people who shoot others in the head don’t stand trial.

        What’s the proper response to wanting applause for that sort of thing if not a big wet raspberry?Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

          Look harder.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            My evidence is that this kid was deemed to not have to go to trial and was then released.

            Then he shot another person in the head (and, if you read the story, menaced a third).

            How would red flag laws have kept this kid from shooting someone in the head?
            How would registration and licensing (?!) proposals have kept this kid from shooting someone in the head?
            How would improved mental health care have kept this kid from shooting someone in the head?

            Here’s a line from the story:
            He became a gap case, falling through a loophole in Minnesota law that lets juvenile suspects charged with crimes go free without required mental health treatment or supervision.

            I’m guessing that this law was passed by people who cared very, very much about improved mental health care.

            Or said they were. Loudly.

            This ain’t a case of Democrats trying to clean up the mess made by the Republicans in the previous administration.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Last time Minneapolis voted for Team Red was 1972, they were one of two places that didn’t vote for Reagan. Before that we need to go to 1956. Team Blue has majorities in both houses and the Governor. Difficult to tell but this might be Ilhan Omar’s district.

        Blue has controlled the Govenor’s office since 2011.
        Last Red Mayor of Minneapolis was 1973.

        Minneapolis is a stronghold for Team Blue. City Council is 15 people, ALL of whom are Dem, Socialist, or both.

        So Team Red controls no levers of power in Minneapolis and very few for the State.

        If you squint you can see this case being Blue’s proposals in action. Shooter is a minor, we need to save minors and not sent them off to prison. The mentally ill are victims so they need “improved mental health care”. He’s also both a minor and very violent so there’s no one who is willing to deal with him.

        And yes, there’s a huge disconnect between how this is supposed to work and how it works out.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

          I’m just asking you to listen to conservatives explain that liberals want to prevent people like this disturbed young man from exercising their 2nd Amendment right to acquire a gun whereas conservatives have fought battles all the way to the Supreme Court to protect his right to get a gun.

          If the liberals had their way, this young man would be living in a mental health treatment facility at taxpayer expense talking on his Obama phone, and the gun-grabber government bureaucrats would block him from owning so much as a .22 pistol.

          Their words, not mine.

          But fear not, the Federalist Society and the Republican Party have made sure this man has the freedom to water the tree of liberty regularly.
          Because the right to a gun is more important than some dead children.

          And any attempt we make to prevent this is really just going to make things worse so those dead people really should have been packing heat.

          Again, conservatives’ words, not mine.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            No one wants this guy to have a gun and it’s already illegal for him to have a gun.

            The problem is he ignores the law saying he can’t have one, and whoever sold a gun to the mentally ill teenager also ignored it. Making it 3x and 4x more illegal for him to have a gun won’t change that dynamic.

            If you want additional laws, then you need to explain why the current laws, which are being ignored and have failed, aren’t enough.

            If the liberals had their way, this young man would be living in a mental health treatment facility at taxpayer expense

            Liberals do have their way there. They’re so far to the Left that you have three socialists running things because typical Blue isn’t far enough to the Left. They’re even passing laws to help the mentally ill and to help children.

            The rhetoric doesn’t match the output’s reality. That’s pretty normal.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

              Liberals do have their way there

              No they don’t.

              Minneapolis’s gun laws and mental health facilities are under the control of its City Council, State government, Federal government, and SCOTUS.

              Again, in the conservative’s own words, the proper outcome of this case would have been one person dead, and another in prison.

              THEIR OWN WORDS. THEIR PREFERRED OUTCOME.

              Oh, by the way:
              Conservative Republicans on Capitol Hill are voicing increasingly sharp objections to any federal effort to promote red-flag laws meant to keep guns away from individuals found to be at risk of committing murder or attempting suicide, a provision that has been a centerpiece of bipartisan Senate talks on gun control.
              https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/09/senate-red-flag-laws/

              Yes, Republicans do very badly want this guy to be able to get a gun.

              This is the sound of armpit fart noises.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Red Flag laws are irrelevant here because he’s a criminal (and underage), and NO ONE wants to let criminals have guns.

                Minneapolis’s gun laws and mental health facilities are under the control of its City Council, State government, Federal government, and SCOTUS.

                And NONE OF THEM wanted this guy to have a gun. Him having a gun is already illegal, you don’t need to outlaw it again. You need to deal with the problem that outlawing it didn’t work.

                The only person who wanted him to have a gun was him. All of your laws crash into the reality that he wants a gun so he can shoot people in the head to rob them. You’ve already outlawed everything he wants to do, and he doesn’t care about the law.

                Again, in the conservative’s own words, the proper outcome of this case would have been one person dead, and another in prison.

                Yes. After you’ve killed your first person, the system is supposed to stop you from doing it again.

                And we shouldn’t care about what Liberals want to do because their desires include this guy following the law. In the real world, leaving him on the streets gets more people shot in the head.

                So, what’s you’re solution for this guy right now? He’s only shot two people in the head and he’s a minor. Is he still only sick? Maybe a victim of society that we can save?

                The Conservative solution for this guy is to lock him up. The Liberal solution is to restructure society so you don’t have to… which means leaving him out there shooting people until that happens.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

              You’re literally reciting my charges.

              Conservatives can’t think of any way this could have been prevented, so your best case outcome, in your own words, is for this to have one dead, one imprisoned.

              Your own words.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            I’m pretty sure that conservatives would have also said something like “this guy needs to be imprisoned”.

            Lucky for him, he was in a place where he was deemed not competent to stand trial and therefore wasn’t subject to what conservatives would have wanted.Report

          • DensityDuck in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            “Conservatives can’t think of any way this could have been prevented”

            conservatives would have put him in jail, you dork

            like

            do you honestly not understand that the Gun-Loving Freedom-Fellating Conservative solution here is that people who shoot someone in the head should go to jail foreverReport

            • Chip Daniels in reply to DensityDuck says:

              So, the preferred conservative outcome would be one dead, one in prison.

              I thought I already said that.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to DensityDuck says:

              What he means is, Conservatives have no way to prevent the first shooting.

              He’s right.

              The problem is for all the magic thinking on how Liberals could prevent the first by having criminals follow the law, in practice not only did they fail to prevent the first but they also failed to prevent the second.

              And we might see a third because apparently “lock him up” is off the table and I don’t know what else you can do other than be shocked that he’s still not following the law.

              Everything that happened was illegal. So Red Flag laws and background checks and outlawing the mentally ill from having guns are all irrelevant because the people involved are criminals and don’t care about the law. He’s getting his guns illegally.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                You’ve heard that quip about how Capone was nailed on tax charges.
                And its always tossed out like some great irony except its not.

                Crime is a violation of norms, and crime fighting involves an entire community working to bring the norm-breakers back into compliance.

                The way all crime-fighting works isn’t some magic bullet of stormtroopers kicking in doors, but constant pressure across a wide set of points.

                Gun laws, vehicle registration laws, tax laws, and regulations are ways to increase contact points between the state and the citizen.
                Every contact point is an opportunity to flag a problem or notice some aberrant behavior, and intercept it before it becomes a problem.

                This isn’t theory- this is how it actually works in our peer nations; A wellness check on behalf of a social welfare agency discovers someone losing touch with sanity. In the wellness check they discover unregistered guns and confiscate them.
                An investigation into a burglary turns up a radical group making pipe bombs and planning a subway attack.

                Without the constant points of contact between the community and the individual, there is no way to prevent the first murder.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                You have a lot of good ideas on how things should work. They can’t handle all cases.

                Biggest problem is the “norm” for one of our sub-cultures includes killing people over lost respect. There are also cultural issues on not contacting the police, and a bunch of other habits that are creating problems.

                Our peer nations largely don’t have to deal with that issue. If you’re going to be changing other people’s cultures, I suggest this is the one to fix.

                RE: Wellness Checks.
                I have issued a “wellness check” for my #2 daughter while she was in college and not talking to us. They talked to her at the door, they didn’t search her house for guns.

                If you want the cops to search someone’s house for guns on the basis of a “wellness check” then you need to be real clear that this is what you want and what the implications are.

                RE: Interception
                In this case this shooter has dozens of other charges against him, so he’s been vectoring the wrong way for a while and the problem isn’t that no one knows.

                The mental health community isn’t prepared to deal with a violent juvenile criminal and general law enforcement has been told they can’t deal with mentally ill juveniles.

                We also have the issue of resources. A dense and/or small peer nation that only deals with this once in a while isn’t the same scale as us needing to deal with it from a big sub-culture. Hawaii can put huge resources on individual aberrants because it deals with signal digits; Chicago can’t because they’re not rare there.Report

              • Lion's Tail in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Warlord Tom has a great way to prevent the first shooting. In simulations, he crushes the crime of East St. Louis.

                Conservatives have plenty of ways to prevent the first shooting. I’m going to select one that polls very well among immigrants: “murdering the people who can’t live in civilization”Report

              • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

                This is where I think conservatives drop the ball somewhat, Dark. My understanding is that it is pretty well established that huge portions of the illegal handguns in circulation in the eastern part of the country are traceable to 40-50 FFLs in low reg states in the south where they essentially look the other way on straw sales. The question is why those FFLs are still operating and why straw purchasers are so rarely prosecuted. That’s still a red state/locality issue, even if a lot of the illegal carrying of those weapons or use of them to commit a crime happens in blue urban areas.

                So while I think Chip’s idea that we have something called ‘peer nations’ in the Old World who have totally solved this problem is silly for reasons we’ve debated at OT 1000 times, that doesn’t mean we’ve picked all of the low hanging fruit or the only logical next step is to start banning stuff. This could be controlled better than it is while still maintaining a robust right for law abiding people.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to InMD says:

                Fair point.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Well, if “WE” means “Liberals” the answer is a slew of red flag laws, registration and licensing proposals and improved mental health care.

        And releasing repeat violent offenders, giving them as many chances as it takes to kill someone.

        This is a bipartisan problem: The right won’t accept crime-control measures that burden law-abiding people, and the left won’t accept crime-control measures that burden criminals.Report

        • CJColucci in reply to Brandon Berg says:

          Does anyone here have any actual insight into whether the shooter was, in fact, incompetent to stand trial? If so, putting him in jail was not an option. Civil commitment was, and is. Does anyone here have any actual insight into whether that was or is being pursued?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

            From the linked story:

            (Editor’s note: KARE 11 generally does not name juveniles charged with crimes)

            In that case, the teen, who already faced more than a dozen other crimes, was found mentally incompetent to stand trial due to his mental health and low cognitive functioning.

            That’s the info we got and we can’t google the name of the teen in question for more info.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

              So no.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                If the media isn’t good enough (and, sure, I’m willing to run with that), then I have this from the Minnesota House of Representatives:

                Under current law, if a person is found to be incompetent, misdemeanor criminal charges must be dismissed. Proceedings in felony and gross misdemeanor cases must be paused to see if the person becomes competent, but there is no formal procedure to restore the person to competence.

                HF2725, the bill that Minnesota passed to fix the gap mentioned, was passed and was accepted by the governor in June of last year.

                The media story (I know, I know) said that the previous head shooting happened 8 months ago.

                *AFTER* June of last year.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                The effective date of the parts of the relevant parts of the statute — a commendable, responsible, and progressive change — is January 1 2023.
                So at the time, there was no way to put him in jail. Now there is.
                Good to see responsible government in action. Kinda spoils the trolling, though.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                “So at the time, there was no way to put him in jail.”

                I’m glad that they figured out how to close the loophole that prevented them from jailing people who shoot others in the head but we’re still in a place where the guy who was deemed incompetent to stand trial shot a second guy in the head after he was released back into society.

                Like, I don’t know that going back and making sure he was sequestered from society after the loophole closed qualifies as Double Jeopardy.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                Just admit that you jumped in with both feet when you didn’t know what you were talking about. You’ll feel better. Nothing wrong with honest ignorance. All of us are ignorant of many things. It’s talking when you don’t know what you’re talking about that raises issues.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                I dunno. “We can’t detain this guy who shot another guy in the head because he’s stupid” is one of those policies that is mockable all by itself.

                It’s the fact that this policy contributed to two people getting shot in the head is mostly horrible and I’m not sure that “legally, we couldn’t do anything to stop him” is a great defense.

                Especially if it is true that “the teen, who already faced more than a dozen other crimes, was found mentally incompetent to stand trial due to his mental health and low cognitive functioning.”Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                Yes, you “dunno.” That’s the point.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to CJColucci says:

                You’re ridin’ awful hard for a dude who shot two people in the head, bro.

                Like, even you aren’t disputing that part of the story.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck says:

                That’s right. I’m not disputing that he did what he did, or that it was bad. I asked if anybody here knew certain basic things relevant to what ought to be, or have been, done about it. They didn’t.
                Congratulations on figuring out that I wasn’t talking about what I wasn’t talking about.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

                We don’t do retroactive sentencing.

                Guy in Michigan tried to sell his baby daughter. He got caught. Civil law said a contract involving the sale of someone is null and void, criminal law said nothing.

                Michigan outlawed this after the media talked about it but he got away with it because it wasn’t illegal at the time.

                They tried to get him on child endangerment but seems the plan was to find a rich normal couple to adopt the kid and that doesn’t pass any smell test for child endangerment.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I main need a term explained to me, then. This is from the story:

                His shooting case was suspended, and he was then released to his mother, court records show. At the same time, more than a dozen misdemeanor charges were dismissed.

                I’m not asking for a retroactive sentencing. I’m asking for an unsuspension.

                Are suspensions permanent?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to CJColucci says:

                I take back what I said about a 3rd potential shooting. One assumes he’s locked up now.Report

          • InMD in reply to CJColucci says:

            That’s what I was thinking. In the rare instance of a not criminally responsible determination in Maryland the defendant isn’t set free, they’re committed to the state department of health. Which is a nice way of saying sent to the nut house from whence they are unlikely to return for a very long time, if ever.Report

  5. Chip Daniels says:

    Related from Matt Yglesias:

    House Republicans unwilling to say that downtick in illegal border crossings is good news because they don’t want to solve problems, they want to reap political benefits from problems existing.

    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1657774029682405377

    I say “Armpit fart noises” but potayto, potahto.Report

  6. Jaybird says:

    David Simon (one of the writers of The Wire) has a great thread talking about what needs to be done (and what doesn’t):

    (Warning: Earthy language.)

    Report