Mass Shooting Facts and Figures
My piece a few days ago about the recent shootings in Texas was a little controversial for some readers. I realize that I’m in the minority on some aspects of gun control, especially within the Twitterverse, but I’m as certain as my critics that some of the gun control advocates don’t have a good grasp of the facts at hand or exactly what some of the gun terminology means. I’m sure that I’m not going to convince some on the other side any more than they’ll convince me, but I’d like to at least clear up a few misconceptions.
First, it’s helpful to look at the breakdown of gun deaths in the US. Pew Research is an excellent source for gun data and shows that the majority of gun deaths, about 54 percent, are suicides. Forty-three percent are murders and about 80 percent of all murders do involve a firearm. Both murders and suicides seem to have peaked in 2021. That year only about one percent of gun deaths were accidental.
One common misconception involves the term “semi-automatic assault weapon.” Let’s break this one down. First, “semi-automatic” means that the gun fires one bullet for each trigger pull. To be clear, a semi-automatic is not a “machine gun,” which is slang for a fully automatic weapon.
Second, “assault weapon” can mean anything. It is not a term of art within the firearms community. My advice is that when you see the term “assault weapon” or “assault rifle” in a piece of proposed legislation, you should look at the text of the bill to see what it means. Bills typically include definitions of important terms and when it comes to laws, the term means whatever the bill in question says it means. The bill could literally define “assault weapon” as “a grilled cheese sandwich” and for the purposes of the law, it would be so. When I write the term, I typically put it in quotation marks because it is essentially a meaningless phrase on its own.
Likewise, terms like “mass shooting” and “school shooting” may not have the simple and obvious meanings that we would assume. Last year, I wrote another piece on shooting statistics and found that definitions of mass shootings and spree killings are somewhat inconsistent and overlapping.
Looking at the law, as we just discussed, “mass killing” is defined in federal law as “three or more killings in a single incident.” Note that this definition does not apply solely to spree murders, which the FBI defines as “two or more murders committed by an offender or offenders, without a cooling-off period.” So not all mass murders are spree murders and not all spree murders are mass murders.
These are not distinctions without differences. Some reports and studies use different definitions and that means that statistics can vary widely as different incidents are included or excluded from consideration. My advice is to read the fine print and methodology closely.
With respect to school shootings, there seems to be no formal definition at all so be very leery when presented with statistics about school shootings. I found a few different lists and databases about recent school shootings. A K-12 School Shooting Database lists a staggering 135 school shootings already in 2023. If that sounds high, it is. The site notes that its figures include “gang shootings, domestic violence, shootings at sports games and after-hours school events, suicides, fights that escalate into shootings, and accidents.” All that makes it not terribly useful in a discussion about spree killings of kids in class.
Similarly, the Education Week list of 2023 school shootings lists 19 incidents, but the first two entries are an employee injured by a stray bullet while outside in Nevada and a woman injured in an altercation in a school parking lot in Michigan. In fact, only two of the 19 incidents fit the conventional picture of a spree shooting of students and staff. One of those was the Covenant killing spree in Nashville and the other was a January shooting in Iowa that left two students dead and one adult injured.
I point this out not to say that there aren’t too many students killed – even one is too many – but to point out that school spree murders are extremely rare. That’s cold comfort to someone who has lost a friend or child in a spree killing, but it does mean that the chances of our own children being caught up in such an event are very, very low.
The same is true of the mass shooting claims. I’ve seen Twitter users claim that there have been as many as 199 mass shootings in 2023 to date, which works out to more than one per day. If that sounds high, again, it’s because it is. An Associated Press/Northeastern Universitytracker puts the figure at 22 incidents so far in 2023 and 553 since 2006. Again, it’s too many but a far cry from the more sensational claims. (By the way, the parameters for the tracker include “every mass killing since 2006 from all weapons in which four or more people, excluding the offender, were killed within a 24-hour time frame.”)
Further muddying the waters, we can look at the FBI’s reports on “active shooter incidents.” The FBI defines an active shooter as “active shooter as one or more individuals actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area.” Reports on this type of attack are released annually, the 2022 report is here, but there is also a summary that aggregates data from 2000 through 2019. These are what we typically think of when we talk about spree killings.
The 2022 report shows 50 incidents, declining from a peak of 61 in 2021. The incidents occurred in both red and blue states with multiple incidents in California, Illinois, and New York. An interesting chart from the 20-year report seems to indicate a correlation between both gun ownership and population when it comes to active shooters. in data that is admittedly a few years old by now, California tops the list of active shooter incidents while a number of both red and blue states haven’t had any. Florida and Texas ran a distant second and third.
In 2022, Texas was the most common location for active shooters, however, with six incidents. Four states (Arizona, Florida, Michigan, and New York) tied for second place with three incidents each.
The mass shootings reported for 2023 are not all active shooter incidents. To tease out the spree killings from more traditional mass killings, I looked at each of the 22 incidents individually. Only six (27 percent) would fall into the category of active shooters. Interestingly, two of those occurred in California (Half Moon Bay and Monterey), one of the most heavily regulated states when it comes to gun control.
The six active shooter incidents that I’m counting may be too high. I’m including the April shooting at a birthday party in Dadeville, Alabama that left four people dead. It fits the definition of a spree killing, but it seems to have been gang violence rather than a traditional active shooter.
Twelve were cases of family violence. While these may fit the technical definitions of a spree killing and mass shooting offered above, they don’t fit the active shooter definition. The overlap just underscores how hard it is to understand exactly what is happening from broad statistics.
The AP data shows that people are far less likely to die in a mass shooting by a stranger than by someone we know. The analysis points out, “Mass shootings in which family members or intimate partners are targeted are twice as common as fatal public mass shootings in which strangers are killed.”
There is some truth to the claim that red states have higher homicide rates than blue states, but this isn’t a firm rule. CDC data puts Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama at the top of the homicide mortality rate rankings, but New Mexico is only one notch down at fourth and Illinois is in seventh place. For violent crimes, FBI crime data puts Alaska in first place with purple and blue states also in the top 10.
Again, the data is mixed between the apparent availability of guns and population size. There is no simple, cut-and-dried distinction between red and blue states or between gun control and pro-gun states. It’s just not that simple.
Another common misconception has to do with the topic of “assault weapons.” There is a perception that these rifles, like the notorious AR-15, are ubiquitous and particularly deadly when it comes to mass shootings and/or spree killings and/or active shooters.
Let’s start with the FBI crime data. In the most recent report available, we see that 10,258 firearms were used in homicides. Of those, rifles were used in only 364 incidents. That’s 3.5 percent. There is no category for “assault weapons” or “assault rifles.” Remember what I said about it being a meaningless term?
To put that in perspective, several categories of weapons were responsible for more homicides than rifles of all types. These include knives (1,476), blunt objects (397), and body parts such as hands and feet (600).
Handguns were by far the most common type of firearm used. The 6,368 handgun murders make up 62 percent of firearm homicides. (In about 32 percent of cases, the type of firearm was not stated.)
But what about mass killings and active shooters? Surely those are almost all perpetrated by AR-15s.
There are a couple of sources that we can use to check that assumption. The Violence Project is a nonpartisan mass shooting database that has data back to 1966. This database is easily searchable and shows that only 28 percent of mass shooters used “semi-automatic assault weapons.”
But maybe that’s because the AR-15 has only recently become popular. Unfortunately, we can’t limit the search to a certain time frame, but we can do that manually. The data is current through March 2021 in the “explore the shooter” section (I encourage anyone who is interested in the real data behind mass shootings to spend some time looking at this), and we can arbitrarily look back four years to the beginning of 2017. Doing so yields 25 shooters. Eleven (44 percent) of these used “semi-automatic assault weapons.”
The FBI active shooter reports also break down attacks by weapon. The 20-year report showed that 67 percent of shooters used handguns, although 38 percent had multiple weapons.
The data is a bit more helpful in the 2022 report. Handguns were used in 21 incidents (40 percent), rifles of any type in 17 incidents (34 percent), and both types were used in six incidents (12 percent).
Looking at the six active shooter incidents from this year, rifles have been more common. Active shooters in Allen, Louisville, and Nashville used rifles, but those in Dadeville, Half Moon Bay, and Monterey used pistols. That makes this year a 50-50 proposition so far.
Anyway you slice it, handguns are the preferred weapons of criminals, and that includes active shooters and mass shooters. This may shock you because of the emphasis that is placed on “assault weapon” bans as a solution to the problem, but if we look to the data, we see that this strategy is misdirected.
“Assault rifles” are also not particularly deadly. The data does not break down victims by the type of gun they were shot with, but we can look at the number of victims in different incidents. Here are the six shootings so far this year:
Monterey Park – pistol – 12 dead (including perp) and nine injured
Half Moon Bay – pistol – Seven dead and one injured
Dadeville – multiple shooters with pistols – Four dead and 32 injured
Nashville – rifle and pistol – Seven dead (including the perp) and one injured
Louisville – rifle – Six dead and eight injured
Allen – rifle – Nine dead (including perp) and seven injured
The numbers do not bear out the conventional wisdom that shootings with “assault rifles” are necessarily more bloody. Numerous factors seem to reflect the death toll including response time by law enforcement and Good Samaritans as well as the skill level of the perpetrator.
I am not an advocate for the status quo. I want to solve the problems of mass shootings and active shooters as much as they can be solved. That means taking a hard look at the data and finding solutions that are based in reality rather than conventional wisdom. Strategies for dealing with active shooters are going to be different than strategies for dealing with common criminals, domestic strife, and suicidal gun owners. I invite my pro-gun-control friends to dig into the data at the links that I have provided and see for themselves.
Protecting the rights of gun owners is also a priority for me. I believe that we can greatly reduce our murder problem with a minimal impact on law-abiding gun owners who pose no threat to the public. Most gun owners want to stop mass shootings and active shooters but also see a slippery slope when gun control advocates start talking about bans and restrictions on those who are not committing these crimes.
As a piece of advice to gun control advocates, if you would stop talking about broad bans that mainly impact noncriminals, you might find that more gun owners would get on board with solutions that could actually help. With a broad coalition of sensible and practical reforms, together we might be able to persuade Congress to act in ways that would help to solve the problem.
Depending on your polling, between 67% and 70% of Americans support universal background checks, closing gun show loopholes, red flag laws and waiting periods. That takes in a sizable number of gun owners- me included. None of those things are national law. Some are state law. The “sensible proposals” are still fought on the grounds they burden “responsible gun owners.”
Given all that – what’s your solution?Report
This. Anything that makes it even the tiniest bit of inconvenience between literally anyone and literally any weapon is met with howls of “Jack booted authoritarianism!” “You don’t believe in the Constitution!” “This either ends now or at Dachau!” etc., it’s hard to imagine gun rights activists agreeing to anything, ever, no matter how popular. The NRA has become a cultural advocacy organization going well beyond gun ownership rights and the tiniest shred of compromise triggers the low-trust vagus nerve.
I basically accept Jaybird’s hypothesis that all these great ideas for finding common ground and sensible compromise require a high trust society, and when we are dealing with weapons and peoples’ need for them, we’re confronting the bases expression of their low-trust personalities. They might trust in other arenas, but not this one.
I also accept Our Tod’s hypothesis that other facets of the conservative coalition prevent us from addressing violence in other ways.
https://twitter.com/RTodKelly/status/1640462152296431616?s=20
IOW, we’re boxed into a political stasis between 1) advocacy groups preying on low trust about guns specifically, 2) othering preying on low trust for Democrats and their coalition partners generally, 3) “fiscal conservatism” preventing spending on anything else that might help, and 4) the vat breeding of Federalist Society clonejudges demanded by the religious faction of the GOP.
So far as I can tell, what tge GOP will pay for are more cops. Even at their ideal level of function, cops do not prevent violence, they clean up and investigate after it hapoens.Report
As someone who is liberal but generally on the other side of this there is real meat to the objection about failure to enforce the laws we have. On the one hand we have demands for more and more legislation of dubious value beyond the margins but on the other we have a serious press for not prosecuting people caught violating on the books gun laws (or committing other felonies) to the fullest extent of the law, despite that being the most basic and straightforward avenue to denying someone a firearm.
Now, I’m also a big believer in CJ reform, but you also have to be ready to navigate the trade offs. In this country every time someone is pled down to a misdemeanor or goes into diversion for a suspended sentence or nolle pros’ed or something to that effect that person is still going to be able to go out and get a gun. Being harder on people of course has other downsides. But it all starts there, at that most basic level, of what you are willing to do to people that violate the rules and what other priorities you are willing to compromise towards the end of fewer firearm related deaths and injuries. As long as the answer is ‘not much’ it makes sense that people who value gun rights would say no to new laws.Report
When people routinely don’t follow laws, it is an indictment of the people, or the law?
The same goes for enforcement. Why aren’t these laws being enforced?Report
I don’t think there are easy answers to either of those questions. To the extent we are talking about a situation where a person is caught in possession of a firearm during commission of some other crime it seems like it’s very likely to be the person. To the extent the only crime is possessing the firearm it may be, but isn’t necessarily, the law.
On the enforcement issue I think entire books have been written on why it is the way it is.Report
It’s an indication that we’re at the limit of what the gov can do.
Ignoring rampage because it’s stupidly rare, we have the following driving the numbers.
1) Suicide… except our suicide numbers are largely in line with our gun-free peers. Removing guns from the home of someone who has depression is probably a good thing. However if we were totally gun free via a magic wand, we might still reasonably have the rates we do.
2) Homicide… largely driven by some extremely violent subcultures. If we’re going to do something about via gun control, then it’s not “all zips enforce these laws”, it’s “we put a lot of resources into law enforcement on these zip codes”.
That’s going to look seriously racist and also like over policing. We probably end up in “army of occupation” territory.
Because our politicians want to look like they’re doing something and also don’t want to look racist, we end up with “let’s pass a law that assumes everyone is equally likely to commit murder” and get push back from the rest of society because the law looks stupid from the point of view of someone who lives in a zero murder zip code.Report
It only looks racist in the context of our severely under accountable, unprofessional, frankly under funded police resources. I understand there is at this point a cottage industry of groups and (mostly, rich, white) attention seekers ready to claim the order of the clouds in the sky is a severe vestige of racism and white supremacy but the vast majority of people in those zip codes do not like living with violence, especially to the point it makes normal life impossible. Those are the people who we should care about. They also (rightly and understandably) don’t want to be treated like criminals themselves when they are not, or second class citizens by virtue of where they live.
This isn’t some insurmountable problem where we’re stuck picking between the police as occupying rabble or the wild west. The least controversial gun law is the one that says felons are prohibited persons and there’s no reason not to have professional police forces looking out for them and for prosecutors to throw the book at them no matter what color they are.Report
This is naïve. The death of a violent lunatic is presented as racist because he was black and the guy who killed him was white.
A large amount of society checks outputs, not inputs.
They’re still going to be out there insisting that outputs matter and these outputs are racist. They’re also going to view the cops as an occupying army and refuse to deal with them.
We have claims right now that the cops and the rest of society is creating these murder rates. Something something poverty, something something redlining, something something history of racism.
The basic concept that culture is the root problem is unacceptable, so policies which are based on that are also unacceptable. The only acceptable root cause is racism. So we need to lower the murder rate by fighting racism.Report
I disagree and I think it’s accepting the faulty premises of a handful of grifters and media activists. Part of the problem is that no one is willing to tell those voices to shut up then go out and get results.Report
I think you and Dark Matter are both right. Internally, the black community knows what the problem is and wants their streets back. But externally, they present a solid front and promote people who deny the problem. Beyond that, when you get to the zero-proficiency school districts, at that point the majority doesn’t understand or care.Report
Matt Yglesias must read the OT comment section. He has a post this morning that touches on the dynamics in play, at least in DC, with a focus on the allocation of resources:
https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-spatial-misallocation-of-police
I’m not one to talk up Vincent Gray as a politician but MY makes the point that council members representing SE are more ‘law and order’ than those from the wealthier, less violent areas. Now, it’s fair to say that the final policy product that comes out of Democratic party politics in these situations may not end up reflecting the sentiments of those voters and their representatives (lots of issues are like that) but I’m not sure it’s such an always has been always will be situation. I know it’s been memory holed but urban black politicians were part of the tough on crime coalitions in the 80s and early 90s.Report
“We have claims right now that the cops and the rest of society is creating these murder rates. Something something poverty, something something redlining, something something history of racism.”
But those actually ARE the primary drivers of crime in black communities. So… shouldn’t we be looking at that?Report
This is the claim. It doesn’t look correct.
Person A shoots person B because they feel disrespected. Often in front of or involving a girl. That’s the brief summation of a LOT of these killings, so it shouldn’t be a shock that it’s the summation of the most recent post here at OT (the baseball one).
So… does being poor make you a criminal? Poor communities that don’t enjoy this problem seem to disprove this. What about when person A and person B are not poor?
Businesses will refuse to invest in neighborhoods where this is typical, so I expect this culture creates poverty.
Back when rich whites did this sort of thing we called it “dueling”. We had 16 American politicians killed in duels and we became a country after this sort of thing was on the way out. Andrew Jackson did 103 duels.
So no, this is likely not a poverty thing, this is a culture thing. If it’s a culture thing then the “war on poverty” would likely have little to no impact. If it’s a poverty thing then the war on poverty should have reduced this a lot.Report
Poverty goes hand in hand with something I’ll call short horizons, but could also be called high discount rate or low impulse control. A poor person who plans, gets an education, and saves what he can isn’t likely to be poor forever, and a rich person who disregards those things better be really rich or he’s going to end up broke.
It’s not simply that short horizons cause poverty though. Poverty can cause short horizons. High interest rates, the chance of not making it to high school graduation, et cetera. It may take the people in my first paragraph a couple of generations to move out of poverty or wealth, and many may not make it at all.
Culture, individual actions, and economics are all interconnected. That doesn’t mean that fixing one will necessarily fix the others, but it may be part of a solution.Report
This is true.
No one has ever discovered the causal variable for crime.
We have a lot of correlations, but plenty of exception.
Crime among the underclass tends to be violent crime, while crime among the privileged class tends towards nonviolent crime.
We know that people are groupish and when people are included within a group they tend to abide by the norms.Report
In average, between 1588 and 1608 more than ten thousand gentlemen were killed in duels in the name of honour… and that is just among the nobility, without the bourgeoisie and peasantry. That is two noblemen dead by duelling each week. It is estimated that six thousand gentlemen died due to duelling during the reign of Henri II, from 1547 to 1559. Another eight thousand during the reign of Henri IV, 1572 to 1610, with two thousand dying in 1606 alone and four thousand dying in 1607.
https://partylike1660.com/duels-the-forbidden-fights-for-honour/
That’s nobles, who were at most 5% of the population, which itself was 4,110,000 in 1600. That’s 200k Nobles. It’s also a collective self murder rate which bounces between about the same as the nastier zipcodes in Chicago and about 10x worse.
It was outlawed in the 1200’s and then various other times over the centuries. Just like now, it was illegal at the time and viewed as a problem.
So we’ve seen this cultural thing before a LOT over the centuries. Young men killing each other over respect, which is often going to mean “over women”.
Given how often and how widespread this has occasionally been, it might even be the default nature of humanity.Report
Underfunded? In Chicago, where I live, the 2022 PD budget was nearly $2 billion. This translates to nearly $700 per capita.
https://igchicago.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Understanding-the-City-of-Chicago-Police-Departments-Budget-updated.pdfReport
The US is middle of the pack on police spending for OECD countries and not particularly high on the officer per capita rankings. Does this mean we need millions more cops in the middle of nowhere where crime isn’t an issue? No. Does it mean we need more police driving around in cruisers responding to 911 calls? Also no. But it does mean we need more bodies doing regular foot patrols in high crime areas. It’s the only thing that seems to have some evidence of working when it comes to lowering violent crime, which itself is usually pretty concentrated.
Anyway to the topic of the OP that makes a lot more sense to me than writing something else about guns in the criminal code and assuming it’s going to do something all the other stuff about guns written in the criminal code never seems to.Report
Completely agree. Enforcement of existing gun laws varies from state to state. Straw purchasing of guns in Indiana is a major problem here in Chicago.
But, honestly, if you want a gun in this country, and can’t get one, you’re not even trying. Absent a consensus of the voting public, nothing is going to happen with guns in the good ol’ U S of A.Report
“if you want a gun in this country, and can’t get one, you’re not even trying. ”
Have you ever tried? Or is this one of those things like pornography in the school library, where you’ve never actually gone to look but you’re damn sure it’s just like you think it is and you’re very upset about that?Report
There was a moment in the mid-2010’s that conservatives explored criminal justice reform and I saw cause for trans-partisan progress, hope that it could lead to a more intelligently-run system with less overall crime. What a welcome event that was.
Something happened to that moment, that spark of possibility. I honestly don’t know what it was. Trump and the rise of nationalism? Maybe, but maybe not. But it’s gone now. Reform prosecutors are the whipping boys and girls of local conservative political groups everywhere now.Report
There are a lot of different kinds of injustice out there.Report
“Something happened to that moment, that spark of possibility.”
You mean, make common cause with a bunch of racists?Report
“Anyway you slice it, handguns are the preferred weapons of criminals, and that includes active shooters and mass shooters. This may shock you because of the emphasis that is placed on “assault weapon” bans as a solution to the problem, but if we look to the data, we see that this strategy is misdirected.”
You convinced me. So… handguns are the problem we should be focusing on.Report
MIKE!!!Report
😉Report
More Guns = More Gun Violence
More Guns =/= Less Crimes
Thererfore more guns = Americans less safe
Q.E.D.Report
Saw this headline and someone else pointed out that it’d be one that Norm MacDonald would have read on Weekend Update:
What are we going to do to ensure that handguns don’t get into the hands of people we deem incompetent to stand trial?Report
He’s not competent to stand trial, but more than competent at shooting people in the head. On the one hand, we should congratulate a teen for finding something he’s very competent at. On the other, though, if you’re very competent at shooting people, you should also become competent at standing trial. Because no matter how good you are at shooting people, if you’re not good in the courtroom, eventually they’re going to make you stop. “See that guy? Yeah, that’s Tom. Very good at shooting people. He shot people all the time. But he was so bad as a defendant that his career as a head-shooter was cut short.”
You just have to hear it in Norm MacDonald’s voice.Report
What are “WE” doing?
Well, if “WE” means “Liberals” the answer is a slew of red flag laws, registration and licensing proposals and improved mental health care.
If “WE” means “conservatives” the answer is “standing on the sidelines making armpit fart noises.”Report
Really? From here it looks like you guys are making sure that people who shoot others in the head don’t stand trial.
What’s the proper response to wanting applause for that sort of thing if not a big wet raspberry?Report
Look harder.Report
My evidence is that this kid was deemed to not have to go to trial and was then released.
Then he shot another person in the head (and, if you read the story, menaced a third).
How would red flag laws have kept this kid from shooting someone in the head?
How would registration and licensing (?!) proposals have kept this kid from shooting someone in the head?
How would improved mental health care have kept this kid from shooting someone in the head?
Here’s a line from the story:
He became a gap case, falling through a loophole in Minnesota law that lets juvenile suspects charged with crimes go free without required mental health treatment or supervision.
I’m guessing that this law was passed by people who cared very, very much about improved mental health care.
Or said they were. Loudly.
This ain’t a case of Democrats trying to clean up the mess made by the Republicans in the previous administration.Report
Last time Minneapolis voted for Team Red was 1972, they were one of two places that didn’t vote for Reagan. Before that we need to go to 1956. Team Blue has majorities in both houses and the Governor. Difficult to tell but this might be Ilhan Omar’s district.
Blue has controlled the Govenor’s office since 2011.
Last Red Mayor of Minneapolis was 1973.
Minneapolis is a stronghold for Team Blue. City Council is 15 people, ALL of whom are Dem, Socialist, or both.
So Team Red controls no levers of power in Minneapolis and very few for the State.
If you squint you can see this case being Blue’s proposals in action. Shooter is a minor, we need to save minors and not sent them off to prison. The mentally ill are victims so they need “improved mental health care”. He’s also both a minor and very violent so there’s no one who is willing to deal with him.
And yes, there’s a huge disconnect between how this is supposed to work and how it works out.Report
I’m just asking you to listen to conservatives explain that liberals want to prevent people like this disturbed young man from exercising their 2nd Amendment right to acquire a gun whereas conservatives have fought battles all the way to the Supreme Court to protect his right to get a gun.
If the liberals had their way, this young man would be living in a mental health treatment facility at taxpayer expense talking on his Obama phone, and the gun-grabber government bureaucrats would block him from owning so much as a .22 pistol.
Their words, not mine.
But fear not, the Federalist Society and the Republican Party have made sure this man has the freedom to water the tree of liberty regularly.
Because the right to a gun is more important than some dead children.
And any attempt we make to prevent this is really just going to make things worse so those dead people really should have been packing heat.
Again, conservatives’ words, not mine.Report
No one wants this guy to have a gun and it’s already illegal for him to have a gun.
The problem is he ignores the law saying he can’t have one, and whoever sold a gun to the mentally ill teenager also ignored it. Making it 3x and 4x more illegal for him to have a gun won’t change that dynamic.
If you want additional laws, then you need to explain why the current laws, which are being ignored and have failed, aren’t enough.
Liberals do have their way there. They’re so far to the Left that you have three socialists running things because typical Blue isn’t far enough to the Left. They’re even passing laws to help the mentally ill and to help children.
The rhetoric doesn’t match the output’s reality. That’s pretty normal.Report
Liberals do have their way there
No they don’t.
Minneapolis’s gun laws and mental health facilities are under the control of its City Council, State government, Federal government, and SCOTUS.
Again, in the conservative’s own words, the proper outcome of this case would have been one person dead, and another in prison.
THEIR OWN WORDS. THEIR PREFERRED OUTCOME.
Oh, by the way:
Conservative Republicans on Capitol Hill are voicing increasingly sharp objections to any federal effort to promote red-flag laws meant to keep guns away from individuals found to be at risk of committing murder or attempting suicide, a provision that has been a centerpiece of bipartisan Senate talks on gun control.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/09/senate-red-flag-laws/
Yes, Republicans do very badly want this guy to be able to get a gun.
This is the sound of armpit fart noises.Report
Red Flag laws are irrelevant here because he’s a criminal (and underage), and NO ONE wants to let criminals have guns.
And NONE OF THEM wanted this guy to have a gun. Him having a gun is already illegal, you don’t need to outlaw it again. You need to deal with the problem that outlawing it didn’t work.
The only person who wanted him to have a gun was him. All of your laws crash into the reality that he wants a gun so he can shoot people in the head to rob them. You’ve already outlawed everything he wants to do, and he doesn’t care about the law.
Yes. After you’ve killed your first person, the system is supposed to stop you from doing it again.
And we shouldn’t care about what Liberals want to do because their desires include this guy following the law. In the real world, leaving him on the streets gets more people shot in the head.
So, what’s you’re solution for this guy right now? He’s only shot two people in the head and he’s a minor. Is he still only sick? Maybe a victim of society that we can save?
The Conservative solution for this guy is to lock him up. The Liberal solution is to restructure society so you don’t have to… which means leaving him out there shooting people until that happens.Report
You’re literally reciting my charges.
Conservatives can’t think of any way this could have been prevented, so your best case outcome, in your own words, is for this to have one dead, one imprisoned.
Your own words.Report
“How could we have prevented him from shooting someone else in the head after we let him go when he shot the first person in the head? Nobody has any suggestions!”Report
I’m pretty sure that conservatives would have also said something like “this guy needs to be imprisoned”.
Lucky for him, he was in a place where he was deemed not competent to stand trial and therefore wasn’t subject to what conservatives would have wanted.Report
“Conservatives can’t think of any way this could have been prevented”
conservatives would have put him in jail, you dork
like
do you honestly not understand that the Gun-Loving Freedom-Fellating Conservative solution here is that people who shoot someone in the head should go to jail foreverReport
So, the preferred conservative outcome would be one dead, one in prison.
I thought I already said that.Report
Compare that to “two people shot in head, third menaced, shooter still considered incompetent to stand trial”.
You think that the option of “Utopia” should be on the table.
Conservatives say “looks like ‘one dead, one is prison’ is better than what is delivered IN PRACTICE.”Report
Wherein “Utopia” = what is delivered in practice in most of our peer nations.Report
I’m pretty sure that they lock up people who shoot others in the head, though.Report
Not if they’re police they don’t. We police the cops well better than the rest of the world.Report
What he means is, Conservatives have no way to prevent the first shooting.
He’s right.
The problem is for all the magic thinking on how Liberals could prevent the first by having criminals follow the law, in practice not only did they fail to prevent the first but they also failed to prevent the second.
And we might see a third because apparently “lock him up” is off the table and I don’t know what else you can do other than be shocked that he’s still not following the law.
Everything that happened was illegal. So Red Flag laws and background checks and outlawing the mentally ill from having guns are all irrelevant because the people involved are criminals and don’t care about the law. He’s getting his guns illegally.Report
You’ve heard that quip about how Capone was nailed on tax charges.
And its always tossed out like some great irony except its not.
Crime is a violation of norms, and crime fighting involves an entire community working to bring the norm-breakers back into compliance.
The way all crime-fighting works isn’t some magic bullet of stormtroopers kicking in doors, but constant pressure across a wide set of points.
Gun laws, vehicle registration laws, tax laws, and regulations are ways to increase contact points between the state and the citizen.
Every contact point is an opportunity to flag a problem or notice some aberrant behavior, and intercept it before it becomes a problem.
This isn’t theory- this is how it actually works in our peer nations; A wellness check on behalf of a social welfare agency discovers someone losing touch with sanity. In the wellness check they discover unregistered guns and confiscate them.
An investigation into a burglary turns up a radical group making pipe bombs and planning a subway attack.
Without the constant points of contact between the community and the individual, there is no way to prevent the first murder.Report
You have a lot of good ideas on how things should work. They can’t handle all cases.
Biggest problem is the “norm” for one of our sub-cultures includes killing people over lost respect. There are also cultural issues on not contacting the police, and a bunch of other habits that are creating problems.
Our peer nations largely don’t have to deal with that issue. If you’re going to be changing other people’s cultures, I suggest this is the one to fix.
RE: Wellness Checks.
I have issued a “wellness check” for my #2 daughter while she was in college and not talking to us. They talked to her at the door, they didn’t search her house for guns.
If you want the cops to search someone’s house for guns on the basis of a “wellness check” then you need to be real clear that this is what you want and what the implications are.
RE: Interception
In this case this shooter has dozens of other charges against him, so he’s been vectoring the wrong way for a while and the problem isn’t that no one knows.
The mental health community isn’t prepared to deal with a violent juvenile criminal and general law enforcement has been told they can’t deal with mentally ill juveniles.
We also have the issue of resources. A dense and/or small peer nation that only deals with this once in a while isn’t the same scale as us needing to deal with it from a big sub-culture. Hawaii can put huge resources on individual aberrants because it deals with signal digits; Chicago can’t because they’re not rare there.Report
Warlord Tom has a great way to prevent the first shooting. In simulations, he crushes the crime of East St. Louis.
Conservatives have plenty of ways to prevent the first shooting. I’m going to select one that polls very well among immigrants: “murdering the people who can’t live in civilization”Report
This is where I think conservatives drop the ball somewhat, Dark. My understanding is that it is pretty well established that huge portions of the illegal handguns in circulation in the eastern part of the country are traceable to 40-50 FFLs in low reg states in the south where they essentially look the other way on straw sales. The question is why those FFLs are still operating and why straw purchasers are so rarely prosecuted. That’s still a red state/locality issue, even if a lot of the illegal carrying of those weapons or use of them to commit a crime happens in blue urban areas.
So while I think Chip’s idea that we have something called ‘peer nations’ in the Old World who have totally solved this problem is silly for reasons we’ve debated at OT 1000 times, that doesn’t mean we’ve picked all of the low hanging fruit or the only logical next step is to start banning stuff. This could be controlled better than it is while still maintaining a robust right for law abiding people.Report
Fair point.Report
Well, if “WE” means “Liberals” the answer is a slew of red flag laws, registration and licensing proposals and improved mental health care.
And releasing repeat violent offenders, giving them as many chances as it takes to kill someone.
This is a bipartisan problem: The right won’t accept crime-control measures that burden law-abiding people, and the left won’t accept crime-control measures that burden criminals.Report
Does anyone here have any actual insight into whether the shooter was, in fact, incompetent to stand trial? If so, putting him in jail was not an option. Civil commitment was, and is. Does anyone here have any actual insight into whether that was or is being pursued?Report
From the linked story:
That’s the info we got and we can’t google the name of the teen in question for more info.Report
So no.Report
If the media isn’t good enough (and, sure, I’m willing to run with that), then I have this from the Minnesota House of Representatives:
HF2725, the bill that Minnesota passed to fix the gap mentioned, was passed and was accepted by the governor in June of last year.
The media story (I know, I know) said that the previous head shooting happened 8 months ago.
*AFTER* June of last year.Report
The effective date of the parts of the relevant parts of the statute — a commendable, responsible, and progressive change — is January 1 2023.
So at the time, there was no way to put him in jail. Now there is.
Good to see responsible government in action. Kinda spoils the trolling, though.Report
“So at the time, there was no way to put him in jail.”
I’m glad that they figured out how to close the loophole that prevented them from jailing people who shoot others in the head but we’re still in a place where the guy who was deemed incompetent to stand trial shot a second guy in the head after he was released back into society.
Like, I don’t know that going back and making sure he was sequestered from society after the loophole closed qualifies as Double Jeopardy.Report
Just admit that you jumped in with both feet when you didn’t know what you were talking about. You’ll feel better. Nothing wrong with honest ignorance. All of us are ignorant of many things. It’s talking when you don’t know what you’re talking about that raises issues.Report
I dunno. “We can’t detain this guy who shot another guy in the head because he’s stupid” is one of those policies that is mockable all by itself.
It’s the fact that this policy contributed to two people getting shot in the head is mostly horrible and I’m not sure that “legally, we couldn’t do anything to stop him” is a great defense.
Especially if it is true that “the teen, who already faced more than a dozen other crimes, was found mentally incompetent to stand trial due to his mental health and low cognitive functioning.”Report
Yes, you “dunno.” That’s the point.Report
You’re ridin’ awful hard for a dude who shot two people in the head, bro.
Like, even you aren’t disputing that part of the story.Report
That’s right. I’m not disputing that he did what he did, or that it was bad. I asked if anybody here knew certain basic things relevant to what ought to be, or have been, done about it. They didn’t.
Congratulations on figuring out that I wasn’t talking about what I wasn’t talking about.Report
We don’t do retroactive sentencing.
Guy in Michigan tried to sell his baby daughter. He got caught. Civil law said a contract involving the sale of someone is null and void, criminal law said nothing.
Michigan outlawed this after the media talked about it but he got away with it because it wasn’t illegal at the time.
They tried to get him on child endangerment but seems the plan was to find a rich normal couple to adopt the kid and that doesn’t pass any smell test for child endangerment.Report
I main need a term explained to me, then. This is from the story:
I’m not asking for a retroactive sentencing. I’m asking for an unsuspension.
Are suspensions permanent?Report
I take back what I said about a 3rd potential shooting. One assumes he’s locked up now.Report
That’s what I was thinking. In the rare instance of a not criminally responsible determination in Maryland the defendant isn’t set free, they’re committed to the state department of health. Which is a nice way of saying sent to the nut house from whence they are unlikely to return for a very long time, if ever.Report
Related from Matt Yglesias:
House Republicans unwilling to say that downtick in illegal border crossings is good news because they don’t want to solve problems, they want to reap political benefits from problems existing.
https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1657774029682405377
I say “Armpit fart noises” but potayto, potahto.Report
You’d think that they’d welcome so many White Supremacists coming into the country.Report
David Simon (one of the writers of The Wire) has a great thread talking about what needs to be done (and what doesn’t):
(Warning: Earthy language.)
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