Do the Right Thing (Public Officials Behaving Badly)

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

Related Post Roulette

246 Responses

  1. I’ll disagree about the Tennesse Three: Because of the total overreach of going straight to expulsion, and the fact Rep Jones is already back in his seat and Rep Pearson will probably be there by the end of the week, the TN Republicans took what they did completely off the table and made national media superstars out of them. Plus brought national media attention not just on TN politics but digging through the backgrounds of GOP House members. So, for the cheap pop of expelling them for a few days at best, the TN GOP looks – at best – like incompetent vindictive fools, has emboldened the members they claimed to be disciplining because good luck expelling them again, put two very charismatic progressive politicians at the front of TN politics, and guaranteed national attention on all TN assembly business for the foreseeable future. Plus, you just opened an outside money faucet for Team Blue fundraising. Bad strategy, bad politics, and wrong on the merits for the TN GOP.Report

    • CJColucci in reply to Andrew Donaldson says:

      On the general principle that the universe sucks, I will not be surprised if the Tennesse Two — who had been safely under the radar and would have stayed there, but are now famous public figures — turn out to have some skeletons in their closets that will be revealed because of their current fame.
      To be clear, I am not predicting this on the basis of any information, or even semi-informed suspicion, about them in particular. Just a vague sense that we are due for an attack of bad karma, and this looks like a good spot for it.

      By the way, Bud Light does suck.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Andrew Donaldson says:

      On the other hand, now we’re all talking about How They Got Expelled and Gosh Those Republicans Are Jerks, and we’re not talking about…uh…why was it they went in there, again? I dunno. It’s not really important, I guess. Because oh, man, those Republicans sure are jerks!Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Andrew Donaldson says:

      Breaking news: Pearson has just been reappointed back to his seat.

      Congrats to both expelled and then unexpelled members, and just as much congrats to the GOP for looking like racist idiots who accomplished nothing.Report

  2. Pinky says:

    FYI, the black guys were using the bullhorn, and the white lady was standing near them.Report

  3. KenB says:

    IMO the main problem with the accusations against Clarence Thomas at this point is that they’re completely ad hoc. “This person in my political outgroup did something technically within the rules that looks really questionable to me!!!!” There are all kinds of associations between powerful people and rich people across the political spectrum — I would take this more seriously if i saw some effort to do a broader accounting among all the justices first.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to KenB says:

      I saw someone on the twitters refer to the outcry against Thomas as “concern trolling” and I found myself wondering “surely that won’t work”.

      But maybe it will?Report

      • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

        Define “work”. It won’t change anyone’s minds on the left or the right.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

          “Establish that this is just another culture war hot button being pressed” in the minds of the people who happen to show up and look at the topic for the first time.Report

          • KenB in reply to Jaybird says:

            By and large, the best way to get people to think something is not just another culture war hot button is to find a way to get the culture warriors to shut up for a hot second. Certainly the freakout about Nazi memorabilia did not help the cause of making this seem like a real issue.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

            It helps Thomas that it’s impossible to picture him being bribed. Love his North Star or hate it, you know he follows it. I remember hearing a lot of complaints about Scalia to the effect that his originalism was a means to arrive at what he wanted. I never bought the argument, but I don’t think I’ve ever even heard it about Thomas. I can just hear the other Republican-nominated justices begging Thomas not to talk about Griswold in the Dobbs decision, but it was going to happen and nothing could stop it.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Pinky says:

              Or alternately, Thomas was bribed very very very well at the start of his career and has stayed bribed.

              Being 100% consistent doesn’t mean you haven’t been bribed, it just means you aren’t being bribed by different people.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

                “Thomas was bribed very very very well at the start of his career and has stayed bribed.”

                Clarence Thomas was admitted to the bar in 1974. While you could make a plausible argument that the Third KKK, active at the time, might have been interested in bribing judges, I doubt that they’d have considered a black man for a long-game insider.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

                …if you think racists won’t bribe and support Black people who will do what they want them to do, I’m not sure what to tell you.

                But, anyway, you do realize that people can be bribed to do stuff they were _probably_ going to do anyway? It’s the best sort of a bribe, it’s easy to pretend wasn’t a bribe at all. As you say, “Why, he was already going to do that! How would that be a bribe?”

                Eventually that little voice in the person’s head said ‘That person who gives me a lot of money really likes how I vote in general, being consistent like that is clearly very good’ and they never considers anything else.

                You’re not bribing them for the stuff they’re probably going to do anyway, you’re bribing them to keep them from ever straying off the path, or even to stop them from considering straying off the path. It’s the best sort of bribe there is, at least by people whose wealth completely dwarfs the people they are bribing so the bribes basically cost them nothing.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

                ” you do realize that people can be bribed to do stuff they were _probably_ going to do anyway?”

                dude the thing about “an honest politician is one who stays bought” is a joke, you’re not supposed to be trying to make it the foundation of an actual, like, serious argumentReport

              • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

                Firstly, you realize that staying bought, _if the person who is buying you is a billionaire_, is a pretty reasonable stragety, right? Trying to shop around for other people when the gifts just keep pouring in is stupid

                But also…you have never looked into how bribery works, have you?

                Almost all bribery is mentally justified on the part of the recipient with ‘It’s the right thing to do anyway, but I’ll accept the bribe anyway because they don’t pay me enough.’

                You don’t bribe the host at a restaurant to do something he’s not allowed to do. You bribe him to do something he has some discretion over, like seating you first or in a better spot.

                The amount of people who can be bribed to do the Obvious Wrong Thing is pretty low, and pretty risky.

                The amount of people who can be bribed to _tweak_ the Obvious Right Thing, maybe do it a little sooner or make it a little clearer or fudge just a tiny amount is much much larger…and that’s how you bribe people.Report

            • Brent F in reply to Pinky says:

              The best line of attack on Thomas is this demonstrates his utter contempt for rules and the little people that have to follow them. The deep seated disgust I’ve seen from all the civil servants who have lived in the narrow confines of the rules while he’s free to violate them in the most flagrante way possible is real and visceral. In many ways it resembles some of the reactions from civil servants to the Hillary emails scandal.

              Like it or not, Thomas is the very picture of a sneering, unaccountable elite, all while for years pretending to be a man of the people who vacationed to Wal-Mart parking lots.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Brent F says:

                This is exactly it. Thomas’ defense of accepting gifts from friends of long standing looks a little disingenuous when one realizes the friendship only began after he became a justice. Not to mention his benefactor’s ties to his wife.Report

    • Greg In Ak in reply to KenB says:

      The only problem is none of this is ad hoc. There have been ethics issues with Thomas before and judges getting gifts/reporting is a long standing issue. So much so that judges dont’ do it. Except of course for Thomas. This isn’t some never before heard of concept.

      They sure as hell should have a stronger ethics code for supremes. In fact people have been saying that for a while especially re: Thomas.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB says:

      I would take this more seriously if i saw some effort to do a broader accounting among all the justices first.

      Great! Let’s do that. What are some other conflicts with the other justices we should account for?Report

    • DavidTC in reply to KenB says:

      The other judges actually report their gifts. There’s not going to be an ‘accounting’ of them because they don’t actually break the ethic rules, there’s nothing to call them to task for.

      We actually already went through this cycle once before, back in early 2000s, when the scope of how much Crow was bribing Commons came to light (and that Thomas had been misreporting his wife’s income for decades), and other justices were looked into and found to mostly be following the rules.

      And what happened since them is Thomas stop reporting any of the gift at all.

      It is clear he thinks he can do whatever he wants to, and this will not be resolved unless Congress decides to impeach him.Report

      • KenB in reply to DavidTC says:

        You’re just doing your best to keep a black man down by imposing your white supremacist concepts on him. Powerful white men have been enriching each other for centuries, but as soon as a black man who grew up poor tries to get in on the game, he gets a flood of “oh no you’re violating the unwritten rules about taking white people’s money, you need to resign!” from white guys like you.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB says:

          Conservatives love to play the “race card” because in their minds, it’s all just a scam to begin with.

          Racism isn’t a real thing, it’s just a ploy to crab bucket ones way to power. So it can be deployed in any direction at convenience.Report

          • KenB in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            What I take from this is that you don’t know how to answer my comment directly, so you try to redirect with your stereotype of “conservatives” – how that’s relevant to me, I don’t know, since I’m not a conservative. But you’re still a white guy.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB says:

              Look at Jaybird and Dark Matters posts below about anti-Semitism.

              Bigotry isn’t real, its just a scam, a ploy by one tribe to get power over another tribe. So anyone can play the card.

              For the big league version, check out John Robert’s opinions where racism was effectively ended in 1965, and therefore the best way to stop racism is to stop talking about racism.

              Or Ron DeSantis clever deployment of the race card where any speech which makes white people feel bad is racism and must be suppressed by the government.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                No, that’s not my position. You misstate it.

                My position is that having a great deal of Type I errors is likely to result in Type II errors in the future.

                I think that Type II errors are possible.

                It’s just that I think that your insistence on making as many Type I errors as possible will make those Type II errors more likely.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Try again, but this time be more abstract and evasive.

                I almost understood what you’re desperately trying not to say.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I’m saying that you’re crying wolf. Over and over and over again.

                You were crying wolf here and it’s made obvious by the fact that the question was raised “why aren’t you crying wolf now?” and it resulted in an inability to explain why this not wolf is significantly different from that not wolf and, instead, assertions that it ought to be obvious why this not wolf is different from that not one.

                For the record, I think that we may need to cry wolf someday. When you need to cry wolf, you are likely to need to cry wolf very, very badly.

                A tendency to cry wolf when there is not a wolf will result in people just not showing up.

                Oh. Chip is crying wolf again.

                Well, that’s what he does, isn’t it?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                “Crying wolf” in this context means “crying racism”.

                Which is a point I’ve been meaning to make, that whenever anyone is accused of racism/ misogyny/ homophobia/ Anti-Semitism, the universal tendency among all people, liberal and conservative alike, is to choose to run a diagnostic and self certify.

                Like, a person accused of racism runs a test-
                Did I vote for Obama? 1 pt.
                Have a BLM yard sign? 2 pts.
                Have a black friend? 5 pts.

                Then depending on the score, they certify themselves and declare gosh darnit, I’m not racist!

                But as with sin or virtue, millennia of philosophy tells us that this is bullsh!t.

                We are very often blind to our own biases which is why we need to hear the voices of outside people to tell us if we are bigoted or not.

                And yes, they are often wrong as well. But it is a necessary component to self-evaluation.

                So in this case, how do we know if liberals are “crying wolf”, i.e., accurately calling out bigotry?

                Well, the most important thing is to listen to those most affected.

                What do actual Jews and black people and women and LGBTQ people think?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Well, the most important thing is to listen to those most affected.

                No, the most important thing is to check and see if you’re moving goal posts around and/or using different standards to judge people.

                If it’s racist to judge, pre-judge, or affect someone’s life on the basis of their skin color, then it’s still racist if Blue does it.

                It doesn’t magically stop being racist when actual black people discriminate against Asians because of the color of their skin.

                Measuring people’s opinions becomes a measurement of tribal loyalty. So Red is always racist and Blue never is, even if they’re both doing exactly the same thing for exactly the same reasons.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Am I bigoted, and treating people badly?

                No. No, it is the black people who are wrong.Report

              • KenB in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, you’re a white guy – by your own rules you have no standing to accuse DM or anyone else of racism. If we need to ask Black or Jewish people what they think, then that means there’s no reason to give a flying fish what you think.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB says:

                Fair enough.

                If I said that black people generally feel that conservatives are hostile to them, would that accurate?

                Or that most Jewish people find the constant use of Soros as a boogeyman strongly suggestive of historical antisemitic attacks?

                Or that a lot of LGBTQ people believe the current message that trans people are “coming for your children” is an echo of homophobic slurs from decades ago?

                Am I off-base to think this, and repeat their claims?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                it is the black people who are wrong.

                My accusation is that it’s mostly a political club and the goal posts will be moved as needed.

                If you can’t set goal posts because they’ll need to be moved as needed, then that’s making my point.

                Even if Black people don’t think it’s racist to deny college spots to Asians based on the color of their skin, it’s very hard to see how that’s not racist without goal post moving as needed.

                For another example, is it racist to evaluate schools based on test scores before deciding to send your kid to them?

                If the answer is “it’s racist” (maybe structurally racist), then a ton of Team Blue Liberals (including President Obama) are guilty of this and it nicely explains why lots of Blue enclaves are more segregated than deep South enclaves.

                If the answer is “it’s not racist”, then Team Blue Liberals are off the hook but we really should also be excusing Southern parents who do the same thing.

                IMHO the real answer is: “It’s only racist if Team Red is doing it”.

                All of this is different from claiming that racism doesn’t exist, or hasn’t existed since “X”. Clearly it does, but any sane definition is going to show that the level of racism in society has gone down a lot over the decades.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                You’re doing that thing where you want to turn discussions of racism into a blackletter legal issue.

                But that fails because even in law, context and what a “reasonable” person infers from another person’s actions is crucial.

                In this case, what a reasonable black person considers offensive is very important and can’t be left out of the process.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                In this case, what a reasonable black person considers offensive is very important and can’t be left out of the process.

                My examples were all “what other people do with their lives”.

                You would never accept Conservatives being “offended” at a gay or trans person’s lifestyle as justification for anything. Ditto the anti-abortion ideas.

                If you are getting “offended” at where someone else is sending their children to school, or that other groups are more successful than yours, then that’s not “racism”.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Pretty sure that ‘those private schools are required for people to do well in society, and those schools literally barred Black people from attending them, making sure that their parents and grandparents wouldn’t be successful and making it incredibly hard for current Black peopke to be able to access those schools even if they are now legally able to’, is in fact calling out racism.

                Note I’m being rather vague here because you’re not really saying what kind of school you’re talking about, but you are aware that a huge amount of private schooling in America was created in response to desegregation of public schools, right? Likewise a bunch of giant areas of land, which currently correspond to school districts, were kept under strict rules that did not allow Black people in, which in turn kept their property values high and made it where they can fund their own public schools very well.

                In fact, property values even currently are inversely correlated with the number of Black people in an area, as a part of inherent systematic racism in this country still suffers from, which makes it rather problematic that we pay for education with taxes on those properties. Identical areas full of Black homeowners versus white homeowners will collect less property taxes, because of, again, systematic racism at the deepest level that causes those homes to, very subjectively, be valued less.

                It really is weird how conservatives have internalized the idea that ‘offended’ is relevant to anything.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                If you need to talk about what society was like in the 70’s to prove what it’s like now, then you’re not talking about what it’s like now.

                It really is weird how conservatives have internalized the idea that ‘offended’ is relevant to anything.

                Chip was the one who was claiming “offended” is relevant.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                If you need to talk about what society was like in the 70’s to prove what it’s like now, then you’re not talking about what it’s like now.

                Because the amount of opportunity someone has now is completely irrelevant to what school their parents went to, I guess.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                If we’re talking kids in school now, then you mean “what school their grandparents went to”.

                And if you need to move the goal posts that far then you’re well past being able to point to real current problems and deep into ideology (and yes, being offended).

                My parents had a huge impact on me, I barely met my grandparents and (thankfully) they didn’t have much impact. What happened generations ago has very little explanatory power for what is going on now.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                “Crying wolf” in this context means “crying racism”.

                Really? It meant “anti-Semitism” in your earlier comment where we were discussing the criticisms of George Soros’s support of various DAs.

                So in this case, how do we know if liberals are “crying wolf”, i.e., accurately calling out bigotry?

                Well, we can look and see what they’re calling a wolf.

                “Huh. This DA locked up a garage attendant for engaging in self-defense after he got shot by a trespassing guy, grabbing the gun away from the guy, and shooting trespasser. The DA even charged the attendant with unlawful possession of a weapon!!!”

                “HEY! THE DA DROPPED THE UNLAWFUL POSSESSION CHARGE!!!”

                Yeah. Calling criticism of the guy who supports DAs like that “anti-Semitism”?

                That ain’t a wolf.

                It’s a Type I error.

                You’re making a Type I error.

                Vigorously.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

                No clue what “Type 1” means here.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Dark Matter says:

                In statistics, they make distinctions between Type I and Type II errors. It’s got a wikipedia page and everything.

                According to Wikipedia, the difference is this:

                In statistical hypothesis testing, a type I error is the mistaken rejection of an actually true null hypothesis (also known as a “false positive” finding or conclusion; example: “an innocent person is convicted”), while a type II error is the failure to reject a null hypothesis that is actually false (also known as a “false negative” finding or conclusion; example: “a guilty person is not convicted”). Much of statistical theory revolves around the minimization of one or both of these errors, though the complete elimination of either is a statistical impossibility if the outcome is not determined by a known, observable causal process. By selecting a low threshold (cut-off) value and modifying the alpha (α) level, the quality of the hypothesis test can be increased. The knowledge of type I errors and type II errors is widely used in medical science, biometrics and computer science.

                Now you may say something like “Jaybird, that doesn’t help me at friggin’ all.”

                Okay. Fair enough.

                Then lemme tell you this: The story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf has two major errors in it. Type I errors happen first and then the story finishes with a great big Type II error.

                The errors happen in the right order.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Your logic is faulty.
                Even accepting your premises, the conclusion you draw is not supported by logic.

                Bragg could be an objectively lousy DA, and still be subject to bigoted criticism.

                Again, we need to listen to the people most affected to determine whether it was bigoted. You can’t do your own diagnostic and proclaim yourself virtuous.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I’m sure that he could be subjected to bigoted criticism.

                But pointing out that he’s a lousy DA is not bigoted criticism.

                And saying “THAT’S RACIST!” in response to the criticism that he is a lousy DA is a Type I error.

                You’re making a Type I error.

                Vigorously.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Again your conclusion isn’t supported.

                Yes, pointing out that he is a lousy D could easily be bigoted, depending on context and other factors.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Sure, but immediately stampeding to that in the wake of reading how he charged a guy who wrested a gun away from the man who shot him with unlawful possession of a weapon is a Type I error.

                You’re making a Type I error.

                Vigorously.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                In context of his other actions, DeSantis’ comments can easily be seen by a reasonable person as racist.

                I’m just asking you to consider that not everyone sees DeSantis the way you do, that other people’s perspectives are different than yours, and his actions be interpreted differently than you do.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Oh, his comments, you say? I’m sure that they’re so bad that you don’t even need to quote them!

                My goodness, I’ve now been put in a place where I am defending DeSantis by saying that a lousy DA is a lousy DA.

                Or… wait.

                Maybe the person making the accusation is making a Type I error.

                AGAIN.
                VIGOROUSLY.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Lets flag this exchange for when we next have a thread on “Why don’t black folks trust conservatives white people?”

                I edited it because, to be fair, this is what most white people do, of any political persuasion.
                They are so adamant about being innocent they go to any absurd lengths to prove it to themselves.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                To run with the whole thing of talking about Black folks as if they were a monolith, they’ve got plenty of good reasons to not trust conservatives.

                But a lousy DA remains a lousy DA even if Black folks have good reason to not trust conservatives.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                DeSantis’ comments can easily be seen by a reasonable person as racist.

                If memory serves, he gets dinged on trying to remove CRT from formal education because it’s an ideology and not a theory.

                Thing is the proponents of CRT redefine “truth” and “evidence” in order to make it a theory. If you need to do that then it’s an ideology and not a theory.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to KenB says:

          Powerful white men have been enriching each other for centuries, but as soon as a black man who grew up poor tries to get in on the game, he gets a flood of “oh no you’re violating the unwritten rules about taking white people’s money, you need to resign!” from white guys like you.

          Thomas is violating the _written_ rules of his position, not the unwritten ones.

          And, um, I hate to have to point this out, but I have probably been the strongest critic here of the ways that the super-wealthy play games to enrich each other at the expense of everyone else, like their little incestuous CEO games where they all are school friends who all agree to pay each other huge salaries even if they completely screw up and break the company they were hired to run. It’s literally one of my pet peeves, I mention it all the time.Report

        • Slade the Leveller in reply to KenB says:

          Squirrel!Report

  4. DensityDuck says:

    I’m confused, is it still antisemitic to criticize Jewish guys who are big political donors?Report

  5. Philip H says:

    The fundamental flaw with your analysis is that the GOP – including Thomas – don’t care how any of this looks and haven’t for quite some time. Those Tennessee reps won’t ever get to legislate across the aisle as the GOP there has a gerrymandered supermajority. Meaning there won’t be gun control legislation. Everyone knows this. Including the Speaker of the House. So the expulsion wasn’t about doing the business of the house. It was a stunt reminding folks who is I charge. Nothing more.

    As to Thomas – Anita Hill tried to warn us. No one listened. He doesn’t care either. And I’m beginning to think Roberts is not all that concerned about the Court’s legacy or he would have done something when this first surfaced a decade ago.Report

  6. Dark Matter says:

    Thomas stepping down will wait until the WH changes hands. He’s 74 and getting into retirement years regardless.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

      He’s not the retiring type. He’s got his; f the rest of us. He will die in office unless impeached because he believes he’s entitled to be a Supreme Court justice.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

        This doesn’t make sense. “I’ve got mine; f the rest of you” is like the retiree’s motto.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Pinky says:

          Actually it makes a lot of sense. We’ve seen retired Supremes talk before on how big a let down it is and how they regret it. We’ve seen multiple Supremes die in office.

          RBG was a great example. In poor health. Seriously into her ideology. Couldn’t be talked into retirement by Obama when she could have effectively picked a clone of herself as replacement.

          No clue if Thomas will do the same thing but it’s certainly possible.Report

    • Burt Likko in reply to Dark Matter says:

      Thomas goes out feet first.Report

  7. DavidTC says:

    Many of Crow’s friends, such as Jonah Goldberg, who is Jewish, defend his character.

    You would be amazed how many people are willing to defend a ‘friend’ who spews free luxury trips and private jet access at them.

    I think we probably should ask Jonah Goldberg how much _he_ has accepted from Crow, before taking his word on this.

    Normal people don’t spend hundreds of millions of dollars collecting Nazi stuff that they then display in their home. And before anyone mentions they also collect communist stuff, no, he collects very cheap communist statues that he puts in his garden, and he collects very very very expensive Nazi stuff that he puts in his house. They are not the same.

    All of this is completely irrelevant to the fact that he’s been bribing Thomas for decades, though.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

      Normal people don’t spend hundreds of millions of dollars collecting Nazi stuff that they then display in their home

      My brother in law is a serious collector of WW2 military (yes, including Na.zi) stuff. They have their own community, think gamers.

      Far as I can tell it has zero ideological impact or input on him. It’s a hobby, it’s not supposed to make sense.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

        Does your brother only collect the Nazi side? Does he hang it on the wall in his house? Does he put Nazi tablecloths on his table?

        Heck, does your brother have a painting painted by Adolf Hitler hanging on the wall? Which last I checked wouldn’t really be connected to the war at all, just Hitler fandom.Report

  8. Kazzy says:

    My fave moment in the Bud Light “scandal” was some country musician I never heard of announcing on Twitter he was going to remove any requests from Bud Light from his riders. Okay, cool. When that didn’t seem to garner much traction (either because he’s not someone folks seem to care about or because the issue isn’t one most folks seem to care about) he followed up to say that LOTS of other musicians were doing the same but they weren’t announcing it for fear of being cancelled.

    So… in response to a company partnering with someone whose mere existence they don’t like, some folks have decided to boycott that company, presumably in hopes of sending a message that they should not have partnered with someone whose mere existence they don’t like. When their boycott did not generate the enthusiasm hoped for, it was attributed to fears of being cancelled.

    Um… okaaaaaay…? The cancellers are mad that more people aren’t cancelling and are blaming “cancel culture” for it?Report

  9. InMD says:

    I’m finding it incredibly difficult to get exercised about the TN thing. When a person engages in an act of protest intended to disrupt or violate some norm there is always a chance of being made an example of, including in ways that are disproportionate or hypocritical. I somehow doubt the average person who voted for the expelled reps did so in hopes that they would engage in this sort of conduct which clearly puts the representation of the district at risk. Frankly I see it as a violation of trust of the people who voted for them, all of whom are now worse off.

    Speaking of which it is absolutely appropriate for calls that Clarence Thomas step down. It doesn’t matter whether what he did is illegal or not, he has one of the most important jobs in the country. He’s disgracing the profession and his disdain for the court really ought to anger judges and lawyers everywhere. It’s one thing to try and fall short of the standards we are supposed to hold ourselves to and another to express total contempt them. I’d say the same thing if it was one of the Dem appointees caught doing this stuff. The selfishness and irresponsibility is disgraceful.Report

  10. Jaybird says:

    The Bragg thing gets interestinger!

    Report

  11. Burt Likko says:

    Good Gods in Asgard Above, conservative middle-aged white men venting their transphobia by labeling Bud Light as “woke” and taking their business ‘elsewhere’ is about the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of.

    1. You can get the exact same product — a watered-down lager adjuncted with lightly-toasted rice hulls and brewed with mild Saaz hops that were present somewhere in the same area code as the brewery — from Miller, Coors, Busch, or Michelob. I don’t mean “functionally the same product,” I mean these other light beers all are so close to the same recipe, one which traces back to the one used by Adolphus Busch and Eberhard Anheuser in the 1890’s after they first thought to lighten the color of their product by using rice, that they are the same beer.

    2. You can also get a very similar product from “international” brands (which are actually brewed in the same breweries by the same people and using functionally the same ingredients) like Corona, Asahi, Heinekin, and Stella. Seriously, the only real difference between any of these is the packaging. So, your anti-wokeness protest does not involve you actually sacrificing anything.

    3. Now, if you do switch to Miller Lite, Coors Light, Busch Lite, Michelob Light, any of the Platinum or Ultra-light products, from any of these other labels, you’re still buying the same beer from the same company. All of these companies are owned by a single company called Anheuser-Busch InBev SA/NV, or “InBev” for short.

    Not much of a protest if you are still buying the same product from the same company. But hey, I hope you feel better.

    4(a). So you could stop buying beer altogether, I suppose, in which case congratulations, you can get your drink on with a spirit or wine or fruit ciders; you could also make the switch to craft beers. Which would represent, in my humble opinion, a substantial quality-of-life improvement because you’re going to be drinking a better caliber of alcoholic beverage for those times you choose to imbibe, regardless of your politics or some other sort of cultural messaging.

    4(b). Or, alternatively, you could stop drinking altogether, which is probably a pretty good decision from a health standpoint, again totally independent of your cultural messaging. So once more, you’re better off than you were before so I still don’t think you’re making much of a sacrifice.

    Seriously this may be the stupidest thing I’ve seen SoCons do since they tried to light their sneakers on fire and stunk up their back yards with the aroma of burning plastic and both Nike and Colin Kaepernick both made more money than they had before the controversy. Although the smash-your-Keurig-with-a-hammer business was pretty dumnb too.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Burt Likko says:

      I dunno, are you against boycotts entirely? A boycott doesn’t have to bankrupt a company to be effective. It can send a message. What were / are your feelings about Chick-fil-A?

      ETA: Also, isn’t Coors made by a different company?Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

        What is the message being sent? “Please be meaner to trans people?”Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Kazzy says:

          Exactly.

          The Chick-fil-A boycott, despite the comment below I said where it was successful, technically wasn’t successful as a _boycott_, in that it really didn’t cause any financial harm to Chick-fil-A. It’s a common point that a lot of people seem to dislike Chick-fil-A about that, and then continue to eat there.

          What it caused was extremely bad PR because it was pointed out that they were funding charities that were literally promoting laws that resulted in the execution of gay people in various African countries. Which cause Chick-fil-A to have to do something about that, which they did pretty much immediately, stopping the funding even if they didn’t admit that they had caved.

          Meanwhile the Bud Light boycott is just ‘this trans person is promoting a beer, and the beer company is targetting LGBTQ peopl’e. Firstly, all beer companies do that second thing, every single one of them has run campaigns targeted at queer people and supported pride and all sorts of things, and everyone knows this?

          And the first thing is just weird and mean spirited, and seems to imply that the problem is the existence of trans people, which, despite the far right not quite believing this, most people do not agree they should be eliminated from society.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to DavidTC says:

            News item:
            In response to consumer backlash, Bud Light today announced that they would change to a more traditionally masculine, rugged series of spokesmodels.

            The new ad campaign features such iconic figures of masculinity as a cowboy, Indian chief, biker, construction worker, and police officer.Report

        • Burt Likko in reply to Kazzy says:

          Well, let’s be fair. “Please stop going out of your way to be nice to trans people.”Report

      • DavidTC in reply to Pinky says:

        You know what the people boycotting Chick-fil-A don’t do?

        Buy a bunch of Chick-fil-A and then run over it.

        They also don’t buy chicken from other brands that are also Chick-fil-A.

        They also, as to your Coors’ point, don’t buy chicken from another company that supports exactly the same thing as Chick-fil-A. Coors has specifically aimed its beer at LGBTQ people plenty of times, including making cans specifically for that.

        Boycotts are entirely reasonable and fine and might send a message, but the problem is this one just sends the message that the people doing them aren’t really paying attention until someone does performative outrage towards one random example, which is hardly going to change the companies positionsReport

        • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

          Meanwhile, the Chick-fil-A boycott actually worked. It actually worked pretty quickly, Chick-Fil-A stop supporting pretty much all the charities have been criticized for supporting, right then.

          The only exception was The Fellowship of Christian Athletes, which was a pretty minor problem compared to the charities that had been supporting before that, which had helped create ‘killed the gays’ laws in Uganda and other places. The FCA is anti-gay, but it’s a pretty mild school-club level anti-gay. So, the Chick-fil-A boycott really had about a 95% success about a year after it started.

          About four years later it came under fire for supporting the Salvation Army, then a year later came out saying it would no longer support that or the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. 100% success.

          The thing is, it never really announced this, or at least never really got it into the news, so a lot of people are still boycotting it. I’m not sure if that’s by their choice, if they know that they show that they caved they’ll lose customers from the other direction, but they did pretty much completely cave…twice.Report

        • Pinky in reply to DavidTC says:

          Bud Light sales are reportedly down, so there aren’t *that* many people buying it in order to run over it.

          Rattlesnakes don’t testify on behalf of all snakekind, they just tell you that your last decision is something you should seriously think about undoing. I think that such warnings do affect how people deal with snakes in general, though, over the long run.Report

          • DavidTC in reply to Pinky says:

            Bud Light isn’t a company
            Are InBev sales down?

            And, before you start trying to defend that, be aware that what is actually going on isn’t really a boycott, just like the Chick-fil-A thing wasn’t really a boycott, it was a publicity thing to point out horrific behavior on the part of a corporation. Whether or not sales go up or down is not actually relevant here, the question of whether this shames a company into changing what they are doing before there are long-term consequences. That’s how most ‘boycotts’ actually work.

            It’s just the Chick-fil-A thing actually was horrific, so that company changed what they were doing, whereas the Bud Light thing makes you all look like bigoted idiots.

            The multinationals made a decision a long time ago that targeting gay people and allies of gay people and people who were in favor of that actually made them more money than targeting peoples who would reject them if they supported gay people. Randomly picking one of them for one campaign is not going to accomplish anything at all.Report

            • Pinky in reply to DavidTC says:

              You’re right that this wasn’t a boycott, it was more of a backlash. As for the rest, it’s not aimed at persuading you, but it could persuade the company, and the next one.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Pinky says:

                I mean, what it’s _probably_ going to do is persuade the company that the complainers are a bunch of idiots.

                You seem to think it’s thirty years ago and that sort of stuff will play among the public. It’s not, and it won’t.

                I repeat: The multinationals made a decision a long time ago that targeting gay people and allies of gay people and people who were in favor of that actually made them more money than targeting peoples who would reject them if they supported gay people. Randomly picking one of them for one campaign is not going to accomplish anything at all.

                And by a long time ago I mean 20 years: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/06/how-subarus-came-to-be-seen-as-cars-for-lesbians/488042/Report

              • CJColucci in reply to DavidTC says:

                Hey, I’ve driven Subarus for years. Maybe I should become a lesbian.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to CJColucci says:

                I always laugh at this part of the article:

                When the company’s marketers went searching for people willing to pay a premium for all-wheel drive, they identified four core groups who were responsible for half of the company’s American sales: teachers and educators, health-care professionals, IT professionals, and outdoorsy types.

                Then they discovered a fifth: lesbians.

                Surprise lesbians!

                It’s seems like it was a funny realization, considering that sexual orientation certainly wouldn’t have been on what car dealerships were reporting about their customers. The marketing firm they hired apparently started calling up the mysterious ‘single woman head of the household’ in certain areas of the country, and somehow figure out ‘Oh. This woman is a lesbian!’ Did they _ask_ orientation from the start, or just sort of slowly get clued in with mentions of partners and whatnot?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                Persuade companies to do what? Refuse to be nice to trans people? Alienate their LGBTQ consumer base?Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Pinky says:

        Raising Cane’s makes good fast food chicken.Report

        • Burt Likko in reply to Greg In Ak says:

          As rare as bad takes from you are, this one’s at least pretty innocuous.

          It’s not that Cane’s chicken is bad, it’s that it’s bland. And they don’t even seem to have any sort of interesting sauce for it. The Cane’s sauce seems basically identical to fry sauce (ketchup + mayo) and, well… I think tomato ketchup is disgusting. I’d rather eat the bland chicken strips dry.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to Pinky says:

        I’m not against boycotts entirely. (That’s Our Tod. We’re both Xer white dudes from Portland,* so I can understand some confusion.) I had generally positive feelings about Chick-fil-A before the boycott against it brought to light where some of Chick-fil-A’s “charitable” donations were going and what they were supporting. At that point, I stopped buying there. When Chick-fil-A diverted their corporate charity elsewhere, I resumed my occasional purchases. Admittedly this wasn’t that painful because i didn’t eat there very often, but I did alter my consumer behavior at little bit.

        And you are right — it appears MolsonCoors was spun off of SAB Miller about a year after SAB Miller was acquired by InBev in ’15 at the behest of U.S. antitrust regulators. I therefore stand corrected as to Coors Light (and Miller Lite): these are still the same watery, rice-adjuncted, Saaz-hopped lager as Bud/Busch/Corona/Michelob et al. Light(s). But yes, that company is now different.

        Nevertheless, I’m going to stand by the remainder of my rant — it’s the same damn barely-hopped barley pop and this boycott is at once silly and mean-spirited, as well as painless to the boycotter (as well as the boycotted, who may well benefit from such publicity as this generates).

        * Tod’s Xer credentials are are iffier than mine.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Burt Likko says:

          So, the company is touchable. It remains to be seen if this will impact their bottom line, or their advertising approach. It’s hard for me to picture this helping them, at least if helping them requires people to drink Bud Light.Report

        • To be fair here, Burt, you’ve been boycotting Bud Light on general hoppy principle for a long time…Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Burt Likko says:

          About a dozen years ago, we had a discussion about the boycott of All-American Muslim.

          You can revisit it here.

          So many memories.

          Anyway, I will repeat something I said in 2015 because I can:

          I make distinctions between two kinds of boycotts. One I like very much. One I dislike very much.

          I am a fan of saying “I can’t believe that (Organization X) did this thing of which I disapprove. I will never buy a widget from them again!” That’s awesome. If Organization X sucks, hell yeah. Refuse to do business with them. Vote with your feet.

          I very much dislike the whole “I can’t believe that (Organization X) did this thing of which I disapprove. I will call the people who advertise with (Organization X) and tell them that I will stop patronizing *THEM* if they patronize (Organization X)!”

          It’s cool to refuse to watch (television show). It’s not cool to call up (corporation that advertises on (television show)) and threaten them in order to make them stop advertising.

          Saying “I’m going to stop buying Bud Light because they hired a bad spokesperson”?

          Hey. That’s the good kind of boycott.Report

          • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

            The thing about most of these “boycotts” is that they are about a week of stunts blowing up Disliked Product then the entire thing is forgotten. It’s free advertising for the company and some social media engagement. None of it ads up to anything. People watch/consume whatever they want for whatever reason they want.Report

            • InMD in reply to Greg In Ak says:

              I think most of them are Extremely Online phenomena. Nowhere near enough people hear, participate, or care, at least when it comes to a national or international brand. Maybe you could still kill a true mom and pop shop of some kind.

              This tempest in a beer can is case and point. My taste in beer is erm… unsophisticated and yet I had not seen any of the commercials or otherwise heard about it.Report

              • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

                I don’t know if the stories are true, but it looks like this is actually impacting sales. That’s what makes this story interesting. I don’t think this was a major ad campaign, nor did I see any group organizing a protest. This could be that rare, unpredictable organic event.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                I guess we will see. Bud isn’t my go to but some of the normiest normie people I drink with seem to regularly have it. Maybe I will poll them to see if anyone knows about this and if so whether they care.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                What are year over year sales looking like? Long term trends? That’s where you MIGHT find something useful to discuss.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                There are a *LOT* of people pointing out the 5 Day chart of the stock without looking at the 3 Year chart of the stock.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                The long term trends look like you’d expect if you made a product that tastes like Bud Light. But advertising campaigns can easily get pulled after a bad rollout.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

            Did Bud Light hire anyone?Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

              As spokesperson? Yes. Dylan Mulvaney.

              You can watch her commercials for Bud Light and Nike Sportsbras here.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Got it. She did an ad for them.

                So, in this case, the “bad” part of “hired a bad spokesperson” is her being trans?

                So these folks want to pressure Bud Light into not hiring trans people?

                Ok.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I don’t know that they’re saying “Fire Dylan and we’ll start drinking Bud Light again!”

                To be honest, I’m not quite sure what the underlying message actually is. In some cases, it seems to involve purchasing the product and then destroying it.

                But “You, Company, have offended me and therefore I am going to stop purchasing your product!” is the type of boycott that I support (and have supported for a long time).

                (I compare to the type of boycott that says “You’re advertising on All-American Muslim? I’m going to stop buying Dave’s Doubles until you stop advertising on that show that I don’t approve of!”)Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Would you consider what the anti-Bud Light folks are doing to be a form of “cancelling?”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Given that she has deals with Nike’s Sportsbras, Ulta Beauty, Haus Labs, Crest, Instacart, EOS, and CeraVe?

                At *BEST*, I’d say that it’s a cancellation *ATTEMPT*.

                But it’s obviously failing. She’s everywhere.

                It’s 1998 and she’s Cindy Crawford.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I do believe it is often said that it is not whether or not the cancelling succeeds but the “culture” of “cancelling” that is the issue. Something referred to as “cancel culture” I believe.

                Now we have to reckon with, “Are all boycotts representative of cancel culture?” And if so, then we have to reckon with, “If boycotts we approve of (in structure, at least) are a form of cancel culture, is cancel culture inherently bad?”

                I mean, you said this TYPE of boycott is one you approve of (even if you don’t necessarily agree with their cause). You also noted it is a cancellation attempt. So, by transitive property, I will answer a simple yes/no question:

                Do you approve of this attempt at cancellation?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                Sidenote: She ain’t Cindy Crawford. I literally never heard of her until this brouhaha. For a few minutes, I was like, “Why are they going after the guy from ‘The Practice?'” But that is neither here nor there. Just kinda funny how a form of the Streisand Effect is blooming in this case.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Do you approve of this attempt at cancellation?

                If this is going to turn into an argument that I start drinking Bud Light in order to demonstrate that I oppose this attempt at cancellation, I’ll decline.

                Hey.

                You should start drinking it.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                It’s not. I’m merely asking if you approve of some folks trying to cancel Bud Light/Dylan M by boycotting the former.

                I think folks should drink whatever they want for whatever reason they want. I’m generally a Bud Heavy guy and don’t anticipate changing that any time soon.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Do I approve?

                I think that it’s more that I don’t disapprove.

                If people don’t want to drink Bud Light, you can’t stop them.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                A double dodge. The game continues.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                Most of the objections to cancelling revolve around it being done for peripheral reasons. If a sports broadcaster made an insensitive joke 10 years ago it doesn’t say much about how he’ll perform at his job today. Mulvaney was hired because of an image that’s central to the attempted cancellation.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                Got it… so it isn’t cancelling or cancel culture that’s the problem… just how it’s applied.

                And I’m sure if I comb the archives here I’ll see you’ve been entirely consistent on that?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                I dunno, probably. I hardly ever use the term. But I’m pretty sure I’ve previously criticized punishing people for things unrelated to their jobs.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                Well… now you’ve gone even further afield.

                But… what are they wanting to punish Dylan M for? Being trans?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                I don’t think I’ve gone further afield. Aside from a one-off in the article, you’re the one who’s connected the Mulvaney story with cancellation, and you asked if my answer would be consistent with my comment history. I don’t see the Bud Light blowback as a cancellation, nor as a punishment of Mulvaney.

                You do keep asking a question about being trans, and I’ve been ignoring it, because I think it’ll be fruitless. You presumably see this ad campaign as something that would help people become the best versions of themselves, and I don’t. We’re not going to agree on that, and there’s no point in fighting a proxy war over it.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                I asked if what folks are doing in response to Bud Light’s partnership with Mulvaney is an example of a cancellation attempt.

                Folks on the right are so quick to make claims of being cancelled any time they receive criticism. So I’m asking if this fits the bill.

                YOU made claims that the intent of folks criticizing Bud Light was to persuade them or a future company and when I asked “Persuade them to do/not do what?” you never answered.

                Can you answer now?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

                I’ve already said I don’t think this counts as a cancellation, and why. I’ve already said that I don’t often talk about cancellations, and I welcome you to check the archives on that matter. I’ve already said that I consider that last question an invitation to a pointless proxy war. I don’t see how I can be clearer.

                I’m not a right-winger who’s quick to complain about cancellation. You can take this up with one of them.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

                “As for the rest, it’s not aimed at persuading you, but it could persuade the company, and the next one.”

                So… you make this claim and think that asking you what they’re trying to persuade folks about is an invitation for a proxy war? Huh?

                Cowardice.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                You’ve said this many times, but you have never explained why, exactly, the former is OK and the latter is not.
                Back in the day, I stopped drinking my favorite beverage, orange juice (which, sadly, I can no longer drink in quantity for medical reasons), because of Anita Bryant. I didn’t write a letter (that’s the sort of thing people did back then) to whoever had hired her as a spokesperson for orange juice, but that’s because I was, and remain, lazy. I did not, however, regard my laziness as an act of principle, and had no objection to more vigorous folk doing what I didn’t care to. What is the principle, other than that’s not how I roll?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Because the former is changing one’s own consumption.

                The latter is me trying to get someone else to change theirs.

                Imagine me telling you to stop drinking Bud Light. Or not go see a particular movie. Or not read a particular book. Or not play a particular video game.

                I don’t mean “criticism”. “This is a bad movie with unlikable characters, a preposterous plot, and fight scenes that rely entirely on shaking the camera” is a fine thing to say (I mean, if it’s true). I appreciate being told “the fights use shaky-cam” before I decide to see a movie.

                But imagine me saying “you shouldn’t see this movie because I find one of the actors morally distasteful.”

                Now imagine me saying “Nah, I’m not going to see that movie.”

                Do you see the difference?

                Now imagine me saying “Dear Wendy’s, I’m going to stop buying your product unless you stop advertising on All-American Muslim.”

                That’s not me not watching the show.
                That’s me actively trying to get you to not watch it (and, indeed, get everybody to not even have it as an option).

                That’s why I see “I’m not going to consume X” as a fine statement and “I’m going to make sure that you can’t consume X” as a bad one.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                No. As far as I can see, you have every right to tell me to stop drinking Bud Light or to avoid Woody Allen or Kevin Spacey films for whatever reason you see fit. And I have every right to tell you to pound sand. That seems to me to be the end of the story.
                Now maybe you can succeed in persuading others, and that might affect my ability to consume something I want to consume, like old, racist Disney movies or Amos ‘n Andy. I do have the right to piss and moan about it, but I don’t claim the right to require people to alienate their customers to accommodate me.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                You’re right.

                I can tell you that you shouldn’t consume a product because I don’t like the people associated with it.

                But I make a distinction between that and getting Wendy’s to stop sponsoring All-American Muslim in an effort to get the show canceled.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                If we’re looking for shorthand I think the relevant concept is what would be called a ‘secondary boycott’ in labor law, though in this case done by interested consumers generally rather than instigated by a union.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                Well then, explain it.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                (I compare to the type of boycott that says “You’re advertising on All-American Muslim? I’m going to stop buying Dave’s Doubles until you stop advertising on that show that I don’t approve of!”)

                And I point out, as I hopefully did in our last discussion about this, that your distinction makes literally no sense.

                Because it’s just as easy to frame the reason you are boycotting Dave’s doubles is that _they_ are doing something you disapprove of, namely they are advertising on All-American Muslim.

                Or, to reframe things a different way, the reason conservatives are boycotting Bud Light isn’t what ‘they are doing’, it’s what their spokeswoman is doing. Ergo, under your rules, it is something you do not support as a boycott.

                This distinction is utterly nonsensical, the reason anyone is boycotting any company is that the company is doing something the person don’t approve of. Sometimes that thing the boycotted doesn’t approve of is associating with a different entity.

                And I find it hard to see the fundamental difference between boycotting Jello for hypothetically choosing to rehire Bill Cosby, or for them hypothetically putting ads up on Storm Front or wherever the white supremacists hang out these days. They have hypothetically chosen to associate with something that causes me to choose not to associate with them.

                In fact, it’s hard to look at what you’ve made as a distinction and not conclude the thing you really have a problem with is boycotts that actually work, because advertising boycotts actually _do_ work, they’re almost the only ones that actually work as a boycotts, they get advertisers nervous enough to pull ads. All other boycotts are basically PR stunts to get people talking about the issues the boycott raises.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                It’s the difference between “I dislike this product, therefore I am not going to purchase it” and “I dislike this product, therefore you should not be able to purchase it”.

                I don’t think that you should be prevented from enjoying the content you wish to enjoy even if it is content that I do not like.

                I can explain to you, at length, that your consumption of this product is ethically fraught. I can explain that by consuming it, you’re harming yourself and harming others.

                But I see a major difference between me doing that and me making it so you cannot consume it.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                What… and stay with me here… enough people choose to not buy a product and, as a result, that product is no longer available due to insufficient demand and/or because the company decides to make changes to the product to win back those people?

                Is… is that okay?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                If enough people refuse to buy a product that the product goes out of business?

                Hey, that’s something that happens.

                If the product says “you know what? We’re going back to Classic Coca-Cola!”, then that’s okay too.

                I don’t mind people voting with their feet. Even if it means that I can’t buy Crystal Pepsi anymore.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                And people voting with their feet away from companies who advertise on All American Muslim?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                To make sure that other people can’t watch the show?

                Yep, I still disapprove of that.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Kazzy says:

                Exactly. The functioning of the market is not “making it so you cannot consume it.”Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                It’s the difference between “I dislike this product, therefore I am not going to purchase it” and “I dislike this product, therefore you should not be able to purchase it”.

                Um, the distinction you first claimed to be making, about boycotting someone because you didn’t like their behavior vs. boycotting them because they decided to advertise on something, has literally nothing to do with that. (And also isn’t any sort of distinction, because choices about where they advertise is, duh, their behavior.)

                But I see a major difference between me doing that and me making it so you cannot consume it.

                And by ‘making it so you cannot consume it’, you appear to mean ‘Convincing enough people to not buy it that the product fails and the people providing it withdraw it from the market as it is not profitable’.

                I repeat: In fact, it’s hard to look at what you’ve made as a distinction and not conclude the thing you really have a problem with is boycotts that actually work.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                Well, in the case of Wendy’s advertising on AAM, I suspect that Wendy’s just buys blocks of ads from the cable company. They didn’t say “WE WANT TO ADVERTISE ON THIS SHOW!” as much as “We want one commercial every other commercial break all day.”

                “TLC! That should be a safe channel to advertise on!”

                It’s when idiots started calling up Dave Thomas and told them that they’d stop buying his burgers unless he stopped advertising on the show that we suddenly veered off into dumbland.

                Good news, though. You’ll be pleased to know that the show got cancelled.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                Well, in the case of Wendy’s advertising on AAM, I suspect that Wendy’s just buys blocks of ads from the cable company. They didn’t say “WE WANT TO ADVERTISE ON THIS SHOW!” as much as “We want one commercial every other commercial break all day.”

                So your concern is now the _culpability_ of the person being boycotted WRT the action they are being boycotted over? You’re concerned they might not have know what they were connected to?

                You just keep jumping from position to position here, because that’s completely different from any other position you held, but okay, let’s address that one:

                What exactly is your concern here? Boycotts are not the death penalty, and in fact take a pretty damn long time to get off the ground. Most boycotts start with demands and petitions and _escalate_ to boycotts.

                If a corporation says ‘Whoops, we didn’t realize we were doing that, we’ll stop’ and stop…what exactly do you think the harm is, here? That they have ‘unfairly’ lost some sales over something they didn’t realize…assuming the boycott even managed to get started and still isn’t even in the petition stage?

                Good news, though. You’ll be pleased to know that the show got cancelled.

                We were not discussing any hypothetical boycott of that show. No one even mentioned if that show was boycotted or not. I assume it was, but that’s not the discussion.

                We were discussing the boycott of Wendy’s for advertising on that show.

                Wendy’s, last I checked, still existed.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                No, that is not my “concern”.

                It’s more to address the idea that there was a deliberate choice to advertise on any given particular show as much as to advertise on cable television in general.

                You just keep jumping from position to position here, because that’s completely different from any other position you held, but okay

                No. I keep addressing the new points that people bring up in response to my position remaining “if you don’t like it, don’t watch it”. “But whatabout X?” “Here’s how I address X.” “BUT WHATABOUT Y?” “Here’s how I address Y.” “You just keep hopping around.”

                Boycotts are not the death penalty, and in fact take a pretty damn long time to get off the ground. Most boycotts start with demands and petitions and _escalate_ to boycotts.

                Sure.

                And there are boycotts that I tend to not have a problem with. They tend to take the form “I do not like the stance of corporation. I will cease to purchase from this corporation.”

                It’s the ones that take the form “I do not like this television show. I will therefore make the companies that have commercials during the ad breaks stop sponsoring the show and then no one at all will be able to watch it!” that I do not like.

                Why?

                Because my position remains “if you don’t like it, don’t watch it”.

                what exactly do you think the harm is, here?

                It’s not with the boycott of the company. It’s with the taking of All-American Muslim off of the air.

                We were not discussing any hypothetical boycott of that show. No one even mentioned if that show was boycotted or not. I assume it was, but that’s not the discussion.

                Well, it’d be a short discussion because I am 100% down with people not watching a show they don’t like.

                “If you don’t like it, don’t watch it” has that baked into it.

                It’s the “I don’t like it, you shouldn’t watch it” that irks. “I’m going to get it taken off the air entirely” that grates.

                “But whatabout freedom of speech?”, people ask in response to the right of folks to have shows taken off of the television.

                “Gotta say, I question whether those folks are clear on the concept.”Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                “Because my position remains “if you don’t like it, don’t watch it”.”

                Ah! Here it is! You see boycotts as about the individual. But that isn’t how boycotts work. Boycotts are about collective action. They are not about expressing preferences. They are about taking action.

                You seem fundamentally uncomfortable with the idea that folks may be able to use their collective power to make change.

                Or, if I connect lotsa dots here, you seem fundamentally uncomfortable with the idea that folks may be able to use their collective power to make change *you don’t like*.

                Because you always seem to find ways to defend folks using their collective power to effect change that, “Hey, who is it for me to say if they should like that or not?”

                There is *literally* know difference between me saying:

                “I don’t like television shows that support certain ideas and I won’t watch them.”
                -and-
                “I don’t like companies that support certain ideas and I won’t buy from them.”

                Because “support” can take many forms, from the company partnering with folks who champion those ideas to the company’s owners donating money to organizations that support those ideas to advertising on shows that support those ideas.

                Literally, no difference. You want there to be one but there isn’t one.

                You’re wrong.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                No, Kazzy. I fully support people (even groups of people!) to say “I don’t like what Company is doing. I will no longer consume Product.”

                Remember the Chick-fil-A boycott? People were upset that that corporation donated to a handful of causes that opposed such things as SSM. There was a boycott. I participated in it, even. Then Chick-fil-A ended their donations to these places. Then the boycott ended. Hurray! We can eat there again! Seriously, their spicy chicken sandwich is exceptionally good and doesn’t have the variance problems of the Popeye’s Spicy (which occasionally is better than Chick-fil-A’s, but not always).

                This is the type of boycott I support.

                It’s the boycott of companies like Wendy’s to get them to, for example, get a show like All-American Muslim off the air that I don’t support.

                And, yes, there *IS* a difference between the two types of boycotts.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                “I dont like Chik-Fil-A donating to certain causes.”
                “I don’t like Wendy’s advertising on AAM.”

                Please… tell me how those are different motivations to act?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                It has to do with the chain.

                “S. Truett Cathy donated money to a bad cause. I will no longer purchase his sandwiches.”

                “This television show offends me! I will find whomever is in charge of keeping it on the air! Oh, the advertisers include Lowe’s, Wendy’s, and Hershey’s Chocolate. I will call all of them and tell them to stop advertising on the show to get the show off of the air!”

                “That’s the same thing!”
                “No, it’s not.”Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                Um…randomly creating emphasis doesn’t actually make things different. Pretending it can be measured, the harm chain with Chik-fil-A is LONGER, not shorter.

                The Chik-fil-A chain: Politicians in Uganda(1, the villain) are using resources (lies, actually) provided by certain American non-profits(2) to justify laws that implement the death penalty for homosexuals. Chik-fil-A(3, the people being boycotted) donates to those and other anti-gay charities.

                The Wendy chain: All-American Muslim(1, the villain) is kept on the air by Wendys(2, the people being boycotted) ad money.

                The Chik-fil-A chain has an _entire distinctly-operating third party in it_, the American charities that try to pretend they aren’t providing anti-gay material to people in various governments that those governments then use to justify the murder of executing gay people..but they are. There’s at least one more level of deniability in there.

                Whereas the other just has the two entities, the one being boycotted with and the one doing ‘the bad thing’ it is associated with. It’s like if Chik-fil-A was producing the anti-gay propaganda itself and handing it to those governments, instead of merely funding someone else who does that.

                Which is, oddly, why you tried to introduce the ad agencies into the Wendys discussion, and TLC, but neither of them are operating independently. Wendys controls the ad agency, and TLC controls All-American Muslim. Whereas Chik-fil-A (presumably!) does not control what those anti-gay charities do and might, hypothetically, not even know what they were doing.

                So even under this extreme silliness, the Wendy boycott is more justified than the Chik-fil-A one.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                It’s no more random than the chain you’ve created.

                Though I’m pleased that you’ve concluded that the boycott of Wendy’s because of their support of All-American Muslim was justified in your head and the boycott of Chick-fil-A was not.

                That’s a fine, fine reductio.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                It’s not my conclusion at all, because _my_ conclusion isn’t supposedly based on weird parsing of things that don’t actually make any difference.

                See, I don’t actually believe all the nonsensical bulls**t that this site comes up with as limitations on _methods_, like how political goals are achieved is the end-all and be all of politics, whether or not someone operated within methods a bunch of old white straight cis wealthy people who don’t want the status quo disrupted want them to operate within.

                What I judge is the end goals. (Along with some other stuff that isn’t very relevant here, but could matter in other places, like risk of harm to others. But with a boycott, none of that comes into play.)

                My conclusion is that the Chik-fil-A boycott is justified because harming a corporation with the goal of reducing the murder of queer people is justified.

                Whereas the Wendys boycott is not, because the goal is apparently ‘trans people shouldn’t exist or at least we shouldn’t acknowledge that’ or whatever the hell they think their goal is.

                Both those are perfectly accepted _methods_, in fact, they’re the same method. At least to me, and the law in general, and society. (1)

                But I am also perfectly capable of judge the _goals_ and saying that one of those boycotts is a noble goal and one is a outright bigoted asshole goal. And that does, in fact, make them different.

                1) Although don’t read too much into them being acceptable to me…you’d be _amazed_ at the actions that are slowly becoming acceptable to me as fascism slowly takes over and the media continue demanding we peacefully object to this.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                ““That’s the same thing!”
                “No, it’s not.””

                And how do we determine which of these people is correct?

                Wendy’s did a thing (advertised during AAM).
                Chik-Fil-A did a thing (owner donated money to certain orgs).

                People have feelings on those things. People respond accordingly.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Kazzy says:

                Collective action is all too often another name for mob rule.

                There are righteous causes, most of them fall into “things which are illegal” territory so they’ve mostly been absorbed by the government.

                A lot of these efforts are not well intentioned.

                If we’re going to assume a righteous cause then sure, it’s appropriate to ask people to join. However this looks like something that doesn’t go that way normally.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                And there are boycotts that I tend to not have a problem with. They tend to take the form “I do not like the stance of corporation. I will cease to purchase from this corporation.”

                It’s the ones that take the form “I do not like this television show. I will therefore make the companies that have commercials during the ad breaks stop sponsoring the show and then no one at all will be able to watch it!” that I do not like.

                So I was correct…you’re okay with boycotts if, and only if, they do not work.

                In fact, what you are describing as being okay with is _not_ a boycott. Choosing not to watch something is just a personal preference. People making public the fact they have chosen not to do so doesn’t make it a ‘boycott’.

                A boycott is a systematic, planned attempt to cause harm to a company by withdrawing patronage from it, and getting others to withdraw patronage, _with the intended goal of_ forcing the company to make a choice between either to changing its behavior or failing. (Or at least that specific thing to fail, the intent might not be to take the entire company down, just the objectionable thing they are doing.)

                If you’re not intending the thing you’re ‘boycotting’ to fail (Or the company to reverse course to stop that.) , you are not boycotting it, you’re just loudly complaining about it.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                Oh, and incidentally:

                They didn’t say “WE WANT TO ADVERTISE ON THIS SHOW!” as much as “We want one commercial every other commercial break all day.”

                It is the job of stockholders to manage corporate risk by correctly hiring people to deal with that risk. That is _literally_ the justification for them taking a cut of the profits, that they have risked a bunch of money funding the corporation and they should receive payout consistent with how well they manage it, and if they are not good at managing they have risked their investment. It is the premise of how corporate ownership works.

                The fact that all of society seems to be very good at whining about random events that were unfair to corporations and how we need to be compassionate about that really shows how much of that is a lie.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                “We’re going to be advertising on TLC.”
                “Oh, good. Nobody will object to that!”Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                Advertisers have always paid a lot of attention to the affect of their advertisements.

                Somewhere, someone knows if putting products on AAM was a good thing.Report

  12. Jaybird says:

    It’s the difference between me attempting to persuade you to consume differently and me forcibly removing options from you.Report

    • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

      “forcibly” is doing a lot of work here. Free speech — which includes complaining to companies about what they sponsor — can have consequences, and not everyone can get what they want in the face of contrary public opinion. If you don’t like doing that, or don’t like other people doing that, fine. But there’s no principle behind it.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to CJColucci says:

        The complexity of how secondary boycotts are regulated and when they are and aren’t prohibited is impressive even for an already-confusing area of law. It’s no wonder that it’s a bit confusing and difficult for everyone to explain and understand reasons for a consumer-level analogue to either justify or condemn them.

        For myself, I do not see any principled reason why one ought not engage in a secondary consumer boycott. The only reason I see to legally prohibit secondary labor boycotts is an arbitrary policy decision to limit the economic damage done by striking. Not sure I see the same sort of thing applying in the consumer arena, and I don’t see a moral objection to the practice at all.

        Basically the secondary boycotter says to the sponsor of the other entity engaged in a questioned activity, “You aren’t doing the wrong thing directly, but you are economically supporting someone who is doing the bad thing. That means you approve of the bad thing enough that you’re willing to pay money to support it, so we aren’t going to support you until you stop supporting the people who do the bad thing.”

        Maybe it’s effective maybe it isn’t, but I don’t see a moral objection to this. (My mind might be changed.)Report

      • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

        I think it’s just that you don’t see the principle and conclude that there must not be one.

        I have no problem with you telling me “you shouldn’t see Woody Allen movies”. I have a problem with you telling Amazon “you shouldn’t sell Woody Allen movies”.

        If you don’t want to read a book, don’t read it.
        If you don’t want me to read a book, maybe tell me to not read it and why.
        But making it so I *CAN’T* read it? I can’t buy it?

        That’s different to the point where I find it difficult to believe that you cannot see the difference between these things.

        “If you don’t like it, don’t watch it” used to be a common enough sentiment that I am certain that you’ve encountered it before.Report

        • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

          If I can refuse to watch Woody Allen movies because he’s a pervert, I am surely allowed to suggest to other people that they shouldn’t either. They can ignore me, but what if they don’t? What if I persuade enough people not to watch Woody Allen movies that it is no longer profitable for Amazon, or anyone else, to sell Woody Allen movies? Is it wrong to try to persuade people, or is it wrong only to succeed at persuading people?
          And if I can refuse to watch Woody Allen movies because he’s a pervert, I am surely allowed to tell the folks who sell Woody Allen movies, like Amazon, why I am no longer buying them and suggesting they not sell them. They can ignore me, which is why you can’t say I’m “making it so you can’t buy [them],” but what if they don’t? They are allowed to respond to the market, and if that leaves you unable to buy Woody Allen movies, or if similar persuasion efforts leave me unable to hear the Dixie Chicks, as they were then known, on the radio, I may be pissed off and I may whine, but those are the predictable consequences of free speech.
          Now maybe you have a problem with free speech, but that’s another issue.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

            Well, the folks boycotting Wendy’s got All-American Muslim taken off the air.

            I did not watch so much of a single episode of that show but I am irritated that they got the show cancelled even though I am not particularly into “reality” television. I liked the idea of the show, even though I didn’t watch it (and wouldn’t watch it if it were on the air today).

            I think that the people who watched the show should have had the option of watching it.

            It’s odd to see that framed as anti-free speech but here we are.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

              Nobody owes anybody content that content providers or funders decide not to offer or fund because it is sufficiently unpopular. That may be “irritat[ing],” but my irritation doesn’t impose an obligation on anyone else to give me what I want when they have decided to listen to their other customers.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                I’m not saying that I am owed content.

                I am saying that whether or not I watch All-American Muslim shouldn’t be up to you.

                It should be up to me.

                Even if the very idea of the show strikes you as offensive to your core.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                Yes, you are saying you’re owed content; you just don’t realize it. What you watch is not up to you, the consumer, at least not directly. It’s up to the producer. The producer is under no obligation to provide sufficiently unpopular content.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                My definition of “unpopular” is closer to “nobody wants to watch it” than it is to “a very loud group of people doesn’t want anyone to watch it”, though.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                You can define “unpopular” as you see fit for your own purposes. Those with skin in the game have their own definitions. and, having skin in the game, the right to act on them.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Have we switched to “the right to do a thing”?

                Perhaps we could hammer down “it is not illegal to do this!” as well.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                I would love to live in a world where I can see, read, hear, or otherwise consume products or services even if a critical mass of other customers finds them objectionable and providers want to respond accordingly. But there’s no way for me to get what I want without trampling on rights more important than my preferences. YMMV.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Well, there’s one thing you could do.

                You could argue for it.

                Rather than arguing against it.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                But I have no argument other than “I wish you wouldn’t do that,” which, essentially, puts us in the same boat.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Nah. I’m on the side of letting people watch what they want.

                You’re on the side of letting them get shows they don’t approve of shut down.

                “If you don’t like it, don’t watch it” remains my position.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

                If we’re talking about slave created stuff then we’re deep into “illegal and will be shut down by the authorities”, so that’s not a great example.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Maybe it’s in a foreign country, Dark Matter.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                Sure, that’s your “position.” We know that. You’ve said it many times. What we have been asking for is an argument, not a position. An explanation of why it is wrong for people to advocate that certain shows not be shown or that sponsors shouldn’t sponsor them.

                Now on NBC at 8:00 p.m. Thursdays: Drag Queen Story Hour, proudly sponsored by Burger King. Colorado Springs man big fan of show and convert to Burger King.

                1. I don’t watch much prime-time network TV and wouldn’t be interested in watching Ru Paul read The Three Billy Goats Gruff to a studio audience of giggling children, I also don’t patronize Burger King because I like Wendy’s a lot better.
                If enough people share my indifference to Drag Queen Story Hour and my preference for Baconators over Whoppers, the ratings tank, the show will be cancelled, and Burger King will fold. Colorado Springs Man is SOL.
                I think everyone agrees that nobody has done anything wrong here.

                2. I find Drag Queen Story Hour offensive and think Burger King should be ashamed of itself for sponsoring it. I refuse to watch the show and refuse to patronize Burger King. Lots of other people happen independently to feel the same way, enough such people that the show’s ratings tank, the showis cancelled, Burger King folds, and Colorado Springs Man is SOL. I think we agree that nobody has done anything wrong here.

                3. Same as (2), but I actively persuade my close personal friends Marjorie Taylor Greene, Ron DeSantis, Tucker Carlson, and Pinky, who think the show is unsuitable for children, and will rot our nation’s moral fiber, not to watch the show and not to patronize Burger King. They, in turn, persuade a bunch of their close personal friends to do the same. The ratings tank, the show is cancelled, Burger King folds, and Colorado Springs Man is SOL. I think we agree that nobody has done anything wrong here.

                4. In addition to (3), we take ads out in major newspapers saying the show is offensive and that Burger Kind should be ashamed of itself for sponsoring it and urging people not to watch the show and to go to Wendy’s instead of Burger King. Lots of people take our advice, the ratings tank, the show is cancelled, Burger King folds and Colorado Springs Man is SOL. Has anyone done anything wrong here? If so, what, and why?

                5. Same as (4) except instead of merely saying we think the show is offensive and that Burger King should be ashamed of itself for sponsoring it, we specifically ask that the show be cancelled and that Burger King not sponsor the show. Lots of people express agreement, the ratings tank, the show is cancelled, Burger King folds, and Colorado Springs Man is SOL. Is this different from (4), and, if so, how and why?

                What a lot of us are looking for is not a “position,” but a principle. I, for one, would think the world a much better place if publishers, movie studios. television networks, sports leagues, libraries, and the like told annoying busybodies to go pound sand, and, for example, keep making movies starring Edward G. Robinson, keep playing Dixie Chicks songs, and let Colin Kaepernick be a back-up QB in Baltimore or Seattle. But in this fallen world I can’t insist that these folk develop backbones, and, as far as I can see, the annoying busybodies have every right not only to avoid watching shows they don’t like but to express the view that such shows shouldn’t be shown. Free speech and all that.Report

        • Burt Likko in reply to Jaybird says:

          If I were to say, “Jay, you shouldn’t buy Slavemade ™ Jeans, because they are literally made by slaves,” you’re pretty clearly okay with that.

          If I were to say, “Kohl’s Department Stores, you shouldn’t sell Slavemade ™ Jeans, because they are literally made by slaves,” you maybe do or maybe don’t have a problem with that.

          If I were to say, “Jay, you shouldn’t shop at Kohl’s because we asked them to stop selling Slavemade ™ Jeans and they didn’t,” you are saying is out of bounds.

          Truly, I don’t see that there is a principle at issue here. Kohl’s is helping sell Slavemade ™ Jeans. They probably aren’t going to notice if I go there and buy Sweatshop Wage ™ Shirts but not Slavemade ™ Jeans. But they plausibly might notice if I don’t go there at all and try to figure out why, especially if a bunch of my friends join me in refusing to buy from Kohl’s. And isn’t Kohl’s itself doing something plausibly wrong by selling Slavemade ™ Jeans?Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Burt Likko says:

            How do you make the trademark superscript?
            I am a techno-idiot.Report

          • InMD in reply to Burt Likko says:

            My take on this is maybe the other side of the coin. In our consumerist society we are all figuratively wearing slave made jeans, all the time, every day. Doesn’t mean that we should never do what we can to make what we feel are ethical decisions within our control, but it does mean that none of us are particularly righteous and we should not take those who say they are too seriously.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to InMD says:

              I suspect that this is the real animating force here, dislike of perceived self-righteousness rather than any articulable principle of permissible speech. If being irritated by people who whine to sellers or sponsors floats your boat, feel free to whine about them in your turn. Just don’t pretend it’s more than that.Report

            • Burt Likko in reply to InMD says:

              There are merits and demerits to that argument which certainly can be debated, but it isn’t the one Jay is making.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

              Tangential to this, consumer boycotts are really, really hard to pull off successfully.
              Partly because the reason Popular Brand became Popular Brand is because they are, well, popular. They have some magic alchemy of quality, price and availability that made them survive the Darwinian struggle for survival.

              Getting some critical mass of people organized and acting in concert to swim against the tide of consumer preference requires something that has the power to galvanize a huge block of the consumer population.

              Which is why there isn’t really any moral principle at work.
              There isn’t any iron law that says the galvanizing issue is in support or opposition to justice.

              Boycotts, both primary and secondary don’t have any intrinsic moral value anymore than bombings or letter writing campaigns. They’re just tools of politics.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Burt Likko says:

            The weird thing is that the example of getting All-American Muslim taken off the air is a thing that actually happened.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

              What’s “weird” about it? Such things have never happened before? Surely you know better.Report

            • Burt Likko in reply to Jaybird says:

              Hypotheticals are useful to highlight what’s going on in actual situations. In other words, they’re analytical tools used when attempting to determine the contours of a principle that is purportedly at play. The principle ought to apply in both hypothetical and real-world cases, and indeed it may be easier to both illustrate and test the principle in a hypothetical construct.

              If my hypothetical Kohl’s secondary boycott is somehow morally bad, it should be morally bad for the same reason that people secondarily boycotting All-American Muslim‘s sponsors was morally bad.

              If my hypothetical Kohl’s secondary boycott is morally permissible, then it’s difficult for me to understand why the secondary boycott of All-American Muslim‘s sponsors was morally bad.

              Which is all to say, I don’t think you’ve answered the question on the table: can you articulate why a primary boycott is morally permissible but a secondary boycott is not? Whether others agree with the principle is a different question. At this point, I don’t even understand what that principle is.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Burt Likko says:

                Is the problem that we don’t find any good reason to disapprove of All-American Muslim and therefore don’t see a reason to have a primary boycott of the program, while we can easily find a good reason to disapprove of (admittedly hypothetical) Slavemade ™ Jeans and therefore would approve of a primary boycott of such product?

                If that is the case, then the issue is not one of primary versus secondary boycotts, but rather of the moral worth of the thing ultimately objected to?

                If the issue is “You should take action to object to the thing that you actually object to, and not take action against other things because they aren’t the thing you object to,” that would be a principle I could understand (though not agree with).Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Burt Likko says:

                It strikes me as being morally bad to violate your jurisdiction over your own consumption choices.

                If you want me to make a distinction between All-American Muslim and Slavemade ™ Jeans, give me a second and I’ll see if I can come up with a meaningful distinction between a television show and a product that relies on slaves to make it.

                I may have to google first, though.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Jaybird says:

                “…your jurisdiction…”

                By this I take the meaning that I have power over my consumption choices, and you have power over your consumption choices, but I have no power over your consumption choices nor you over mine.

                Restated: I might attempt to persuade you to not buy Slavemade Jeans, or watch All-American Muslim, or otherwise consume X-to-which-I-object. But if you insist on consuming X (jeans, TV shows, whatever) despite my objection, then I am obliged to accept your decision and take no further action.

                Do I understand you correctly?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Burt Likko says:

                Well, I could see, theoretically, taking the side of the slaves who make the jeans.

                Theoretically.

                If they’re just called Slavemade as some sort of edgy way to make you think about your relationship to Capitalism, man, then I’d probably be back to saying something like “You know, Kirkland jeans are more comfortable and cost less than a tenth of those.”Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Jaybird says:

                Sorry man, we can still be friends and all, but this answer dodges the question. Once again:

                I might attempt to persuade you to not … consume X-to-which-I-object. But if you insist on consuming X … despite my objection, then I am obliged to accept your decision and take no further action.

                Do I understand you correctly?

                Either I’ve understood you correctly or I haven’t. The question is answered with a “yes” or a “no.”

                Whether my objection to X is somehow objectively correct (or incorrect, or indeterminate) is irrelevant.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Burt Likko says:

                We’ve all cross-examined witnesses like that. Sometimes the best thing to do is let the obvious failure to answer the question speak for itself.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to CJColucci says:

                Experience tells me that there are certain juries for which things that are obvious are not so obvious, so I now close the circle when I can.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Burt Likko says:

                The answer is “of course not”.

                You could bring it up every time you saw me. “Hey, still eating at Chik-fil-A?”

                And I can say “Yep! Did you know that they can add *BACON* to the sandwiches?!?!” or “JEEZ I HAVEN’T HAD ONE IN TWO WEEKS OKAY” or whatever.

                But I don’t think that you should pass legislation to prevent Chik-fil-As from being built.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Jaybird says:

                But a boycott isn’t legislation. This is consumer pressure we’re talking about here. The government is not involved.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Burt Likko says:

                A boycott isn’t legislation.

                But let’s look at it again:

                I might attempt to persuade you to not … consume X-to-which-I-object. But if you insist on consuming X … despite my objection, then I am obliged to accept your decision and take no further action.

                Do I understand you correctly?

                Is there any limit to the further action you can take?

                Like, can you pass legislation? (This actually happened!)

                No, of course not. The government shouldn’t be involved, we say.

                Okay. Well, we’re obviously not talking about whether a government has the power to do a thing.
                We’re not talking about whether a person has the human right to call Dave Thomas and say “stop advertising on AAM!”
                We’re not talking about whether it’s legal to call Dave Thomas and tell him to stop advertising.

                We’re just talking about whether it’s something we should be cool with, in theory, or whether it’s something we shouldn’t be cool with, in theory.

                And, apparently, I’m supposed to be supportive of the cancellation of All-American Muslim because of free speech or something like that.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Jaybird says:

                We’re just talking about whether it’s [calling Dave Thomas and say “stop advertising on AAM!”] something we should be cool with, in theory, or whether it’s something we shouldn’t be cool with, in theory.

                If “be cool with” roughly equals “nor morally disapprove of,” then okay. Calling Dave is something you’re not cool with but I am not willing to categorically condemn. Whether it was successful (AAM was taken off the air) or not (we can still get Double Baconators with cheese, blessings be unto the Pork Gods).

                Now we can get to the issue of why calling Dave with that particular message is or is not cool.

                I would condemn Calling Dave, but because I don’t see any reason to object to airing AAM. AAM doesn’t offend me and the only reason I can see to be offended by it is bigotry. I presume you agree that most of AAM’s critics were bigots; that most of tge people who called Dave–and who urged a boycott of Wendy’s when Dave said back, “fish off, we’re sponsoringvthis show,”–were motivated by bigotry. We can and do all condemn bigotry. Certainly both you and I do.

                To me, disapproving of the motive for an action (deontology) is a different reason to praise or condemn that action than a disapproval of the action itself (which would be, I suspect, rule utulitarianism), and both of those are different from the act-utilitarian analysis of “what impact would this a have on the world if it were successful?”. So I guess what’s going on with this discussion is motive versus anticipated results. And yes, these two can be confused with one another in certain (many?) contexts.

                Still, it seems like we’re moving as though drawn by moral gravity to the inexorable crux question of “What are you trying to achieve?” and the question of “How are you trying to achieve it?” is not so important if the two potential answers are “by a primary boycott” versus “by a secondary boycott.”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Burt Likko says:

                There are tons of shows out there that offend me for a multitude of reasons. Some for aesthetic reasons. Some for moral reasons.

                I deal with this by not watching them.

                “This shouldn’t be on the air and I’m going to do what I can to make sure that you can’t watch it” strikes me as more offensive than anything that I’d be offended by on any given show.

                “But it should be okay to have bad shows taken off the air leaving the good and neutral shows!” is one argument I could imagine someone making. “Of course we shouldn’t support taking a neutral or good show off the air!”Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                The differential between “You doing something which doesn’t affect my choices” versus “you doing something which does affect my choices” is largely arbitrary and illusory.

                If a famous and influential person announces they are shunning a product, and the product is still available, this is acceptable.
                If a hundred fans and followers follow suit and the product is still available, this is still acceptable.

                If a million fans and followers follow suit, and the company decides to withdraw the product, then…what, this suddenly became unacceptable?

                The fact is, our individual choices always affect other people’s choices- there isn’t any way to disentangle the two.

                Which I think is the problem here. You’re trying to envision a world of frictionless atomized individuals which isn’t really possible.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, I am fine with boycotts.

                If a million fans and followers want to stop buying a product, I am fine with that. That’s awesome.

                It’s the whole “We’re going to call Dave Thomas and get him to stop advertising on All-American Muslim and get that show off the air!” that I have a problem with.

                If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

                Jaybird, you’re forgetting that modern people believe in the idea of Moral Contagion. If X associates with Y, then X must approve of Y, and therefore is is morally acceptable (and in fact a moral imperative) that we behave towards X in the same way we behave towards Y. Because if X doesn’t want to be treated like Y, then X can just go right ahead and stop associating with Y, and that’s not censorship or mob justice, that’s just free private individuals freely choosing who they associate with.

                It’s like when listeners call the people who advertise on a radio station and say “radio station KDZQ keeps playing songs by a band I consider politically unwelcome, and if you keep buying ads on KDZQ, then me and all my friends are going to stop buying your products”. That’s not censorship, right? Not anything to be concerned about? That’s just free private individuals encouraging other free private individuals to freely choose who to associate with!Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DensityDuck says:

                That would explain why the Chick-fil-A boycott still seems to be in effect despite the company changing their policies and S. Truett Cathy no longer being alive.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

                Honestly, what the hell does the chick boycott “still in effect” even mean. Is there an official boycott incorporated somewhere? Is it a non profit corp or charitable org? Or is it that some people say they dont’ go there which means little to nothing.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Wait, was the boycott *EVER* official?

                The boycott that I participated in was organic and decentralized.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Jaybird says:

                An advertisement DOES support a show.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                Oh, it still is in effect in plenty of people. They’re never going to forget.

                Mostly because ‘Funding stuff used to justify gay people being killed by Uganda’ is not really fixable by _no longer_ funding funding those people. The dead don’t come back to life…in fact, those laws are still on the books, queer people are being killed in Uganda _to this day_ thanks partially to the money of Chik-fil-A, so if they want to _undo_ what they did, they’d have to fund people _fighting_ against those laws. Which of course, they haven’t.

                Hell, they’ve never actually apologized or said they won’t do it against in the future, either. They want to have their conservative Christian cake and eat it too.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to DensityDuck says:

                Right.

                If Bud Light hires a trans spokesperson, then Bud Light approves of transgenderism.

                It is a moral imperative that people treat Bud Light the way they treat transgender people.

                Otherwise, the woke mind virus will spread. Like, y’know, a contagion.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                If I had to guess the larger ramifications for Bud Lite won’t be about the politics so much as the advertising whiff.

                Per google they are losing market share fastest to brands like Modelo and Corona. Modelo’s thing seems to be a vaguely but not exclusively hispanic beer for the blue collar people who want to make it big. Corona has gone all in on the cool, laid back and relaxing like Snoop Dog pitch. The person who decided that the counter punch was an online trans influencer with no appeal to the demographic…. well that person should be out of a job.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                There are tons of shows out there that offend me for a multitude of reasons. Some for aesthetic reasons. Some for moral reasons.

                Pssst, Jaybird: No one demands shows go off the air because they ‘offend’ them, or at least no one manages an organized boycott that makes the papers because of that.

                They boycott shows on the grounds those shows are _actively causing harm_ to people.

                Now, the right has been notable bats**t delusional about their claims of harm, specifically their claims about AAM seemed to be ‘it is harmful for people to see Muslims treated like normal people’, and you can take this recent Bud Light thing and swap ‘trans people’ for ‘Muslim’.

                But it still claims harm is there.

                I actually would like to propose that people stop claiming ‘people are offended’ at all on this site, because in almost every case ‘offended’ is simply used to cover some _actual specific complaints_ people have. Even if those complaints are utterly stupid, like they are here, we still need to point out the actual complaints and not handwave it as ‘offended’, which is incredibly dismissive. (And, in fact, stating the complaints here make it clear just how utterly stupid they are.)Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Burt Likko says:

                To me, disapproving of the motive for an action (deontology) is a different reason to praise or condemn that action than a disapproval of the action itself (which would be, I suspect, rule utulitarianism), and both of those are different from the act-utilitarian analysis of “what impact would this a have on the world if it were successful?”. So I guess what’s going on with this discussion is motive versus anticipated results.

                You’ve run into the very problem of discussing thing with a lot of conservatives (And by conservatives I mean pretty much the entire swarth of political pundits _and_ a good chunk of elected Democrats): They don’t actually think any political stuff matters, because none of it impacts them, so what they care about is ‘the game’. The rules people are playing by.

                The people who are actually impacted by politics (Hey, fun fact: Missouri basically just banned trans healthcare today. For adults, too.) do actually care about outcomes, not just how we get there.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Burt Likko says:

                Jaybird dodging?! PERISH THE THOUGHT!Report

          • DensityDuck in reply to Burt Likko says:

            “If I were to say, “Jay, you shouldn’t buy Slavemade ™ Jeans, because they are literally made by slaves,” you’re pretty clearly okay with that.

            If I were to say, “Kohl’s Department Stores, you shouldn’t sell Slavemade ™ Jeans, because they are literally made by slaves,” you maybe do or maybe don’t have a problem with that.

            If I were to say, “Jay, you shouldn’t shop at Kohl’s because we asked them to stop selling Slavemade ™ Jeans and they didn’t,” you are saying is out of bounds.”

            Seems like he’s not saying the last thing.

            He is saying “Kohl’s, I won’t shop at your store because Burt Likko shops there” is out of bounds.Report

            • Burt Likko in reply to DensityDuck says:

              Respectfully, this appears incorrect. Jay’s actual words:

              It’s the whole “We’re going to call Dave Thomas and get him to stop advertising on All-American Muslim and get that show off the air!” that I have a problem with.

              What is the boycotter in “We’re going to call Dave Thomas and get him to stop advertising on All-American Muslim and get that show off the air!” trying to achieve? Explicitly: “get that show [AAM] off the air”.

              The other two objectives are “Get Slavemade Jeans out of the marketplace” and “Get Burt Likko kicked out of Kohl’s.”

              “Get AAM off the air” looks a lot closer to “Get Slavemade Jeans out of the marketplace” than it does to “Kick Burt Likko out of Kohl’s.”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Burt Likko says:

                Personally, I’d be fine with Slavemade Jeans only using sweatshops instead of actual slaves.

                (For the record, if the actors on All-American Muslim were slaves, I’d have a different attitude towards the show.)Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Jaybird says:

                Then the point is made: the moral weight of a boycott is determined by its objective rather than its method.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Burt Likko says:

                Which is the point I made elsewhere, that the ethics of a tactic change depending on the gravity of the issue.

                In short, Jay’s objection amounts to a distaste for having other people’s choices imposed on him.
                Where for example his desire to consume something is blocked by other people’s agenda against his wishes, where his freedom is curtailed by other people’s ethical concerns.

                But there are plenty of issues where the gravity is sufficient to impose our wishes on other people against their will.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Do the ends justify the means?

                What else would?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to CJColucci says:

                Sometimes.

                Sometimes incinerating a hundred thousand innocent civilians is justified, sometimes a secondary boycott is too extreme.

                There isn’t an easy or simple test to separate the two.

                They CAN be separated. It’s just always a kind of messy and arbitrary process.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Burt Likko says:

                Censorious idiots don’t cease to be censorious idiots just because they’re censoring something that I also find offensive.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                I want to throw (maybe) a wrench into this. Is the issue boycotts, or is it the cowardice of big corporate gatekeepes that leads to their making snap decisions in the face of fleeting zeitgeists or twitter/media storms that get on their radar but actually speak for barely anyone?

                Because to me it’s more that latter issue. Anything can go out of business (or just fail depending on what we’re talking about) at any time for any number of reasons. But man it’s annoying when 150 people want to prevent 132 million people from seeing a Dave Chapelle special who want to see it. Those 150 people suck. But when people like them win it’s usually not because they won a boycott in any traditional sense. It’s because they intimidated a bunch of PR people and corporate drones too scared to call their bluff.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to InMD says:

                I endorse this message.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to InMD says:

                That may be a case of the 150 “boycotters” identifying (or lucking into) a weak point upon which they can apply pressure very effectively because the decision-makers are timid but powerful.

                We may approve or disapprove of their tactic, but I believe that our spot reaction(s) to picking a tactic like that will be substantially and even determinatively informed by our evaluation(s) of the objective.

                In this case, I want to see the Chapelle show, therefore I disapprove of putting pressure on timid-but-powerful PR flacks.

                But if it’s, say, Chick-fil-A (prior corporate behavior iteration)? I disapprove of “pray the gay away” camps, therefore I’m in favor of putting pressure on timid-but-powerful PR flacks.

                ETA: Am I arguing “the ends justify the means”? I could see someone thinking that. But among many means available to attempt to effect change, the means of “boycott” hasn’t been demonstrated to be sufficently morally questionable as an inherent matter (the way other means like “violence” are) that we need worry about such a thing.Report

              • InMD in reply to Burt Likko says:

                I agree that it is a factor and that what one’s preferred outcome is may well be the biggest influence on how any given person looks at a particular boycott. The American understanding of free speech and freedom of contract absolutely allows for and anticipates the tactic being part of our larger cultural framework.

                What I would also say though is that it isn’t the onlyforce that’s out there or anticipated. It’s also natural under those same principles that there are countervailing ‘live and let live’ attitudes which look askance at busybodies run amok, regardless of how they feel about the target of said busybodies.

                Maybe there’s a bit of a paradox in that there would be no point to free speech if one couldn’t exercise it but nor would there be a point if limits, even naturally occurring ones, on what someone can hear become too ossified.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                “If you don’t support the heckler’s veto, you don’t support freedom of speech!”Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to InMD says:

                I seem to recall that a few months ago we had a discussion here about law students, I think at Hastings, shouting down a speaker invited on campus by the Hastings Federalist Society. Seems at least marginally relevant to this tangent of our thread.

                There’s a point in A’s initial speech beyond which B interrupting or protesting or otherwise barging in with an objection is, if not polite, probably “fair game” as B’s own right of free speech. In most cases, I think we’d say that this point doesn’t occur until A has had some sort of fair opportunity to articulate a point of view. We ought to be reluctant to say that in all circumstances and all scenarios we must never tolerate any interruptions or heckling, and everyone must always politely wait their turn to speak. There could be no counter-protesting to protestors if this were the rule.

                But in the specific incident, it’s not always clear when that point of “fair game to heckle” is passed. That’s because it’s a cultural norm and it’s hard to get people to agree on norms, particularly in the moment and particularly when they disagree about the various parties’ objectives which, as we agree, at least substantially lenses the way one evaluates how others use various tactics in various situation.

                Thinking back to the law students, it’s pretty likely that the Federalist Society invited that particular speaker for the purpose of provoking the exact response that they got. Which at least colors my evaluation of all parties involved, none of whom covered themselves with glory.

                Is that a defense of a heckler’s veto? No, because by definition a heckler’s veto is an interruption of someone else’s speech that violates the norm I’m referring to. But it is a nuance, because some kinds of interruptions and objections not only can but should be tolerated and incorporated into a culture of free speech.Report