Marriage is Good, Actually

Mike Coté

Mike Coté is a writer and podcaster focusing on history, Great Power rivalry, and geopolitics. He has a Master’s degree in European history, and is working on a book about the Anglo-German economic and strategic rivalry before World War I. He writes for National Review, Providence Magazine, and The Federalist, hosts the Rational Policy podcast, and can be found on Twitter @ratlpolicy.

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41 Responses

  1. Jaybird says:

    The eternal problem of divorce is that there are a handful of marriages that would benefit from divorce. Any attempt to make divorce less common will be seen as attempting to keep these toxic, toxic marriages together.

    Heck, even talking about how harmful divorce is for marriages that aren’t particularly toxic as these things go will be seen as an attempt to shame the toxic marriages into staying together.

    And that sucks. When I was coming up between middle school and finishing high school in the mid-80s, about one-sixth to one-quarter of my classmates went through their parents divorcing and it wrecked enough of them emotionally that even the weird aspy kid off in his own little world heard about how much it was wrecking them.

    I’ve heard that most of the kids of that generation said something like “I’m *NEVER* getting divorced!” and, instead, delayed marriage/children for a while and wrung out those first couple of starter relationships and settled down later than their parents did. That seems to be true for my circle, anyway.

    Which is good. I’ve seen divorce wreck too many kids.

    But the really, really toxic marriages change the dynamic significantly. We want it as easy as possible for those to end.Report

  2. Chip Daniels says:

    The fact that divorce has been trending downward for decades, along with crime generally demolishes some traditional viewpoints, as well as ratifying others.

    in the early 70’s at the height of the Sexual Revolution, all you would hear from social conservatives was diatribes against premarital sex and no-fault divorce.

    Living in sin and easy divorce were sure to destroy the institution of marriage and with it, the entire structure of family and society, we were told.
    And true enough, there were plenty of sociali liberals who thought the same, and eagerly looked forward to the day when marriage would be swept into the dustbin of history.

    Then the focus of angst shifted to same sex marriage, which was guaranteed to destroy the institution of marriage and with it, the entire structure of family and marriage.

    But of course, marriage and family formation has not only survived, but thrived and blossomed with new and different forms.
    So in one sense, the conservative argument was demolished.

    But one of the foundations of conservative thought is that certain things are just “natural”, hard wired into the human person and should be respected. Marriage was instituted by the Creator in a time of Man’s innocence.

    And…that kind seems right. What we see is that people, everywhere and throughout all time, have a deep seated yearning for pair bonding and family creation.

    Marriage not only doesn’t appear to need defense, it seems remarkably impervious to any attempts to destroy it.Report

    • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      People who claim that a long-standing institution is, at least in general, if not in every specific detail, valuable and productive of social good, should have the courage of their convictions and not run around like chickens with their heads cut off at the slightest “threat.”Report

      • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

        I think one of the big problems is that marriage is sold as being some Romantic Forever Lovely Thing.

        When I had the privilege of hanging around kids who were fixing to get married, I generally told them “marriage is like running a small non-profit”. They’d generally either laugh as if I told a really funny joke or look horrified at how I’d say something so awful about such a wonderful institution.

        One of the couples that I said this in front of is coming up on their TENTH wedding anniversary.

        I casually mentioned having said this the other day as I was hanging about in their kitchen and they both nodded when, a decade ago, they responded as if I were joking.

        I think that society needs to do a *MUCH* better job of preparing young people for marriage.

        One of the slightest threats out there is that “rewarding” means something like “high peaks on a regular basis” rather than “avoiding the really low troughs and, instead, merely finding low troughs on a regular basis and, yeah, the peaks aren’t as high as they used to be when you were 20 but that’s one of those things about being 20, isn’t it?”

        And that’s the slightest threat that I think we, as a society, should do a better job of avoiding entirely.Report

        • Michael Cain in reply to Jaybird says:

          When my wife and I were getting married, when we met with the minister she wanted to perform the ceremony, he said something to the effect of, “Since you’re both 27, both have Masters degrees, and have both established a career, I think we’ll skip the ‘Have you thought carefully about this?’ counseling.”Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Michael Cain says:

            We were forced to get AIDS counseling from our family doctor before we got married.

            Because after you’re in a monogamous relationship, that’s clearly something to worry about.Report

            • Ben Sears in reply to Dark Matter says:

              I keep thinking about AIDS counseling as a requirement for marriage. That’s mind bogglingly stupid and it just gets dumber the more you consider it. What was the rational? What if you refused?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Ben Sears says:

                When we got married in Mississippi 15 years ago we had to go to the county health unit the week of the wedding and get syphilis testing. Its a legal holdover from the 1950’s when that disease ran rampant in black communities (for a variety of reasons). its a useless requirement these days, but the county wouldn’t give us the license until the health department called them and said we were “clean.”Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Ben Sears says:

                It was a State of Michigan thing and they get to decide marriage license requirements, so I assumed at the time if I refused it wouldn’t go good places.Report

        • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

          I think this is basically right. Marriage really is excellent and I wholeheartedly endorse the institution and approaching it as a sort of joint venture.

          Unfortunately I think we’ve gotten caught in between certain overly romanticized visions (not that some romance isn’t healthy, helpful, and fun!) and the well-meaning case for not stigmatizing those who have left it for legitimate reasons or are living outside of it. But it’s really a good thing on its own merits and I think there are a lot of people out there who would be happier if they did it. Would that we could do a better job making the case.

          For those of us with children it is also of course by far the most responsible way to arrange things. It would also be nice if this could be said more openly, without being taken for a reactionary or extreme religious wackadoo.Report

  3. Pinky says:

    There are people who call themselves MRA’s (men’s rights activists), and people who call themselves MGTOW’s (men going their own way). I’m sure there’s overlap. MRA’s want legal or societal reforms, but MGTOW’s have “noped” on the whole thing. I don’t think the first group hates women or female autonomy, but the second group appears to. I think this article should have more strongly distinguished between them.

    I don’t know what Jeff Younger considers himself, but he has a right to be angry.Report

    • Burt Likko in reply to Pinky says:

      In my comment below I do not make as fine of a distinction with my nomenclature as finely as you do here. Can’t say I’ve heard of the MGTOW phenomenon and to me it looks like MRA-Lite, and weighing the degree or flavor of the misogyny underlying either world view is not something I’ve done. And, I’ll be honest, it’s probably not something I’m ever going to do.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Burt Likko says:

        Well, the distinctions are there for the odd circumstance where a guy looks at the landscape and says “you know what? Maybe I’ll be as well off with a smaller apartment, a better video card, and some, ahem, massage aids. Perhaps even better off, given some of the things I’ve heard married guys say about being married.”

        Hammering out why they reach this conclusion will probably be important when it comes to us trying to talk them out of it.

        Assuming we’d want to talk them out of it, those incels were probably sour anyway.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Burt Likko says:

        Yeah, I saw that we submitted our comments on the same topic within a minute of each other. I’d say that MGTOW’s are nuts, maybe incels who refuse to admit the “involuntary” part, whereas MRA’s have some legitimate causes and complaints. I think you’re missing the boat if you write off MRA’s as misogynous though. If you’re willing to spend 15 minutes, here’s a TED talk from Cassie Jaye, the creator of the documentary “The Red Pill”:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoYReport

        • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

          There’s nothing “involuntary” about incels. They are where they are because of their extreme views regarding women. And even then, there are probably women who would date them if they bothered to go out into the world.Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Philip H says:

            That’s probably overstating it a bit. I think all of us — except maybe George Clooney — have stretches of temporary incel status.

            True story: Robert Redford wanted to play Benjamin in The Graduate and asked his friend Mike Nichols, who was directing, to cast him. Nichols said he was wrong for the part and Redford asked why.
            “Have you ever struck out with a girl?”
            “What do you mean?”
            “Exactly.”Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to CJColucci says:

              “All of us are at times, involuntarily celibate” is not only a correct statement, but works to prompt the question of “so what the eff is so tragic about these dudes that we should regard them as victims?”

              I mean, the stereotype of the lonely middle aged lady with a dozen cats is something everyone laughs about.
              So, why aren’t these women going out and blowing people away?

              People with disabilities have a notoriously difficult time finding romantic partners, but I can’t remember the last time a guy rolled his wheelchair up to the mall and started mowing down people.

              A lot of us were nerds, late bloomers, shy and insecure and unable to fit in, yet almost all of us learned to be empathetic and kind and transform our pain rather than transmit it.

              Its hard to read any of these whiny ass titty baby redpill guys without wanting to smack them and say “Grow Up!” partly because invariably these are the very same guys who give us pious lectures about stoicism and how everyone in the past was made of sterner stuff and oh by the way we need to turn away those boats of refugees and let them drown in the ocean because f*ck off we’re full.Report

              • Weird that dudes making stern moral pronouncements and exhibiting performatively uncompassionate statements have difficulty attracting mates. I mean, it’s so weird that women can’t see how retro-stylish their fedoras really are!Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

            I assume they fail and then get extreme views, so then they have at least two strikes against them.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

              Failing with X percent of women you pursue romantically is taken by normal healthy men as a sign the men need to change something about themselves or the type of woman they are pursuing, which usually results in success. These guys feel ENTITLED to women’s affection and sexual pleasure and thus conclude that any rejection is NOT their fault. They are calling strikes against everyone but themselves. IN a game no one else is playing. On a ballfield they built.

              There’s a pattern in there somewhere.Report

  4. Burt Likko says:

    1. Divorce rates are declining, yes, but aren’t marriage rates declining too? If fewer people (per capita) are getting married, that necessarily means that fewer people (per capita) will get divorced.

    2. I was disappointed to read an article about a strain of anti-marriage sentiment on “the right” but not an exploration of what that line of thinking entails and what it signifies. A look at the link, and its second reply and follow up comment from the author make clear that what we’re talking about are male rights activists, as evidenced by his belief that “women control family court.” This is not a new sentiment within right-of-center circles, and it is deeply and solidly rooted in misogyny. Hopefully (and I hold this hope personally with confidence), it is unrepresentative of how most conservatives think.Report

    • Damon in reply to Burt Likko says:

      Women initiate something like 80% of divorces. The majority of cases the woman has primary physical custody, even if the kids aren’t young. Family law is actively on the side of women in these areas, and alimony. Cali law, for example, states alimony can go on, theoretically forever, if the marriage lasted more than 10 years. There does seem to be a implicit bias that kids belong with their mother and dad’s a check….Report

      • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

        Just curious – are you a divorced father?Report

        • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

          Nope. Just divorced. And my ex is a wonderful person. Numerous people have told me that over the years, and yes, I think she is too, generally.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

            Just setting baseline here . .

            As a divorced dad (now remarried) who had to navigate custody and child support first in Florida and then New York (albeit some years ago) I think the stories you are hearing about an anti-male bias are becoming wrong. Had we stayed in Florida I likely would have been shafted repeatedly (the judge at my final divorce hearing told me flat out he didn’t know why I was there as there was no way for me to stop the proceeding), but when my ex moved to new york state the judges up there took a much more even hand view (once telling her that choosing to move north didn’t mean she was entitled to New York levels of support). I’m not going to say its red vs. blue state thing, but it’s not at all as draconian or dire as some want to make it out to be.Report

            • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

              Marriage was never something I wanted. My ex did, badly. What made me happy in the marriage was that her happiness increased dramatically vs living together. She wasn’t all that enthusiastic about having kids either, but that was a condition of our marriage: I’d marry her but I didn’t want kids.

              Going forward, I don’t really care to get married again. Not without YEARS of being in a relationship. My ex and I were together over a decade before we got married.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

                your story tells us two important truths – that even the longest, most thoughtful relationships aren’t always made better by marriage, and that preventing such marriages from dissolving is in no one’s best interests.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

              I’m getting divorced in Florida. My choice. I have the last kid.

              It’s going to be interesting, She and a lot of our stuff is in Michigan.

              Kid isn’t on speaking terms with Mom and will flatly refuse to spend time with her. None of my kids are on speaking terms with her.

              I think we’re in mental illness territory. My oldest daughter has some great memories of her but my youngest does not.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                My understanding is many counties in Florida are more father friendly then when I went through this 20+ years ago. There have also been some father friendly changes to the federal laws governing interstate custody and child support. If you have a good lawyer, you may well make out ok from your kid’s perspective.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                Thanks.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Know that you have my sympathies and best wishes for the least-bad outcome here. This sounds like a really stressful and periodically painful situation for you. “Least bad outcome” likely means you get custody of the kids with some sort of visitation plan for your ex. It’s not at all unrealistic to think that could be the outcome.

                At the same time, I hope that if you’re right about your ex, she gets professional help for her own situation, and that she can heal her relationship with her children.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Burt Likko says:

                Thank you…

                …some sort of visitation plan for your ex

                That’s the interesting part. Court won’t give me 100% of the kid. Kid will flatly refuse to do anything with her mom.

                What will the Court do about a high functioning 16 year old who refuses to get on an airplane or who stays with friends if mom comes around?

                My hope/expectation is they do nothing. My goal is to avoid contempt of court when I end up with 100%.

                To be clear, IMHO kid would be best off by forgiving her mother and having some sort of relationship with her… but I don’t expect that to happen for years.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Good luck is all I can say. And that we’re all hoping it works out as well as it can.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                As the non-custodial parent I know this one. on several occasions I showed up in Buffalo to get the girls for scheduled visits. Mom brought them on time, but once she left the refused to go. As in sat on the airport floor refused to go. so I ended up with expensive hotel and rental car bills to see them at the the time. My lawyer advised me there was no way to make my Ex force them – she showed up and turned them over at the appointed time. I suspect you would hear the same thing.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                Interesting… Thank you for sharing that, it helps a lot.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to Damon says:

        I recall looking into this ( with you?) a few mo ths ago and yes, that number is close to accurate. The real question is what meaning do we want to attach to it?

        For my part, I don’t believe that the vast bulk of either men or women enter into marriages in our culture for the purpose of economic advancement. Rather, I think they enter into marriage because they believe marriage will make both of the spouses happier. If it is women who are initiating most divorces, that sounds like marriage fails to meet their happiness expectations. Which sounds like women are making their men happy? But men are not making their women happy.

        If so, that is a problem with and about men.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Burt Likko says:

          If it is women who are initiating most divorces, that sounds like marriage fails to meet their happiness expectations. Which sounds like women are making their men happy? But men are not making their women happy.

          If so, that is a problem with and about men.

          OR … its about those expectations, which men only play a partial role in setting.Report

          • Burt Likko in reply to Philip H says:

            Fair. In both perspectives, though, it’s about women being unhappy with what marriage brings them. It’s not about society being hard-wired to favor women’s interests over mens’.Report

            • InMD in reply to Burt Likko says:

              Personally I believe a new covenant needs to be established between the sexes.

              On the one hand men need to resist the bazillion temptations out there to avoid growing up. Keep the pot smoking and videogames to at least a level conducive to having a place of your own, a vehicle, and some kind of job prospects. Also learn to cook a meal, scrub a toilet, and get comfortable with the idea of being involved in housework and childrearing to a degree not expected of our fathers and grandfathers generations. This is just a reality men need to accept and too many don’t or make sad excuses about why they can’t. I saw a tweet I think from Matt Yglesias awhile ago lamenting how much of a shame it is that the the only people giving this kind of advice to young men is sketchy pick up artist types and folks like Jordan Peterson who come with a lot of strange baggage attached.

              Women I think need to do a better job of calibrating to their success, including adopting more realistic expectations. By most metrics they are now or swiftly becoming the better educated, more upwardly mobile sex. Yet I get the impression that there have become some somewhat contradictory demands of men, namely that they both check traditional breadwinner boxes while simultaneously meeting modern feminist expectations about divisions of labor within the relationship, homemaking, etc. Guys like this exist but there’s a limit on them and the modern economy really isn’t conducive to it being the norm. Some (fair and reasonable) compromise is critical.

              I add the disclaimer that this comment is totally class specific and probably irrelevant to anyone below a certain level of income threshold and/or social status. However contra Saul’s comment below I think a lot of people are aging passed marriage and are miserable for it. Certainly not everyone, and I would never in a million years push my views about something like this on others. But I do wish people happiness, and for me becoming a normie doing the wife and kid thing in the burbs has gotten me more of it than anything else I’ve ever done.Report

          • Reformed Republican in reply to Philip H says:

            Both of my exes thought marriage and romance should be like something out of a RomCom. It was not. I expected my spouses to be faithful. They were not. That being said, I initiated both of my divorces. I was absolutely miserable by the time we reached that point. I think the second wife really married me for financial stability and because she cannot stand being alone.

            I had no intention of getting married again, though I wasn’t necessarily opposed. I just was not looking. I managed to find somebody with who I am really compatible. It is a night and day difference compared to the previous marriages. With the two of us, it just works. People say “marriage should be work,” but sometimes I think people use that statement to justify staying in bad relationships. I know I did in the past. I cannot say my wife and I have never had any issues, but I cannot say it has ever really felt like work. I think we are both better off together than we would be apart.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to Burt Likko says:

          The interesting thing here is that it is the right-wing often seething at college-educated bougie liberals thriving with and without marriage while their base falters.Report