Why is MAGA Melting Down Over Zelensky?

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

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36 Responses

  1. Philip H says:

    Bless you for trying.Report

  2. Saul Degraw says:

    Because they get Putin rubles and/or Cleek’s law. Plus they really hate that Biden is actually good at politics. I am not stating he is perfect but he is frequently underestimated.Report

  3. Chip Daniels says:

    What’s interesting is that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is exactly the Evil Empire scenario invoked by Reagan, and dramatized in Red Dawn.

    There really isn’t any way to fit the Pution apologists into a framework that fits American conservatism.

    But you can fit them into a framework of Christian Nationalism, or revanchist fascism.Report

  4. I think Zelensky also exposes a lot of their empty rhetoric. Some of the biggest rightists — Tucker in particular — have been going on about masculinity, endorsing things like ball-tanning. Others talk about the courage they show in … getting books banned. Being confronted with actual manly behavior and courage makes them feel exposed. So they lash out.Report

  5. Damon says:

    ” the Russian interference in the election that year is well-documented even if its effects are debated.” Of course. You think we don’t do the same thing? Remember all those “color” revolutions, and yes, even in Ukraine. We were involved. This is what large powers do. Think the Chinese aren’t doing similar? How many spies have been caught working for them in recent years? This is just background noise if we win the “campaign”, and it’s a “horror to democracy” if we loose. Russian ain’t doing anything we don’t.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

      Do you believe this truth justifies GOP support of Russia in Ukraine?Report

      • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

        Depends, if the GOP is consistent in it’s foreign policy, then it might. As best I know, they aren’t so it doesn’t matter.

        Given how the “administration” of “foreign relations” is handled by administrators who are not as much partisan as “part of the deep state”, I doubt anyone elected is really involved in a lot of this stuff.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

          Why should anyone support an intentional unaggrevated invasion of a democratic country by a dictator mush less by Putin’s Russia? The man and his regime are antithetical to democracy.Report

          • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

            So?

            I wasn’t aware that the US foreign policy is to assure the world has democracy.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

              So to be clear you support Putin’s invasion?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                “Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’.”

                ― George OrwellReport

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                Yes and?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                It’s always a good line to bring out against anyone who doesn’t believe we should intervene.Report

              • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

                I neither support nor endorse it. Russia is effectively surrounded by NATO counties or near NATO countries. Bush promised Gorbachev that the US would not “poach” former Warsaw pact countries to NATO and that was walked back over and over. Russia desires a sphere of influence. We have one. I see no reason to get into the middle of something like that AT ALL. I’m more worries about how our support for Ukraine has pushed Russia and China closer together.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

                As the china example makes clear can have a sphere of influence without invading countries. As Russia has done in several nations immediately around it. Russia is not entitled to invade Ukraine simply because it wants to. Just as we would not be entitled to invade Mexico.Report

              • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

                “Russia is not entitled to invade Ukraine simply because it wants to”

                Let’s replace Russia with USA and Ukraine with: Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Panama…….Report

              • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

                I was and remain against Afghanistan and Iraq – both times. I wasn’t alive until the end of Vietnam but based on the history I’ve read I wouldn’t condone it either. Ditto Panama – though it was probably the only way to get rid of Noriega.

                None of that however means we should let Russia succeed. Ukraine as a sovereign nation deserves to chart its own path and we are obligated to help it no matter what our sins are.Report

              • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

                So you condemn meddling equally as much as russian meddling? Cause anything else is hypocrisy.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

                Yes – always have. Most of what’s driving people to migrate to our southern border is due to our and the USSRs meddling for five or six decades. Afghanistan’s proves it was unconquerable in the 1980’s but we failed to listen. Most of South Asia is still recovering for the same USA-USSR meddling.

                Do not, however mistake this for pacifism or isolationism. If we are to in any way live up to the claims we have for ourselves as a nation we must engage in the world. And sometimes that means sending arms we no longer need ir use to a country fighting for its very life.Report

              • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

                Convince me what we’re sending to Ukraine is is no longer needed by us or our allies then. And it’s once thing to send obsolete arms, it’s another to take out pipelines and such.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Damon says:

                “Sphere of influence” is just a lazy way of justifying aggression and imperialism.

                Like, why exactly is Russia, China, or the US entitled to some “sphere of influence” ?
                Other than, “Well, we’re powerful and can do what we want”.Report

              • Damon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I’m not justifying “sphere of influence”. I’m arguing that condemning one country for doing the same thing our country does is hypocrisy.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Damon says:

              Another data point in my contention that the contemporary American right is the new counterculture.

              In this instance, reciting, authentic 1956 style tankie talking points.Report

    • Doctor Jay in reply to Damon says:

      Well, when I ask myself when the last time the US invaded a neighbor with the avowed purpose of gaining territory, my answer is 1848 – the Mexican American War. You could argue that the US engaged in similar policies with regard to Native Americans. Since then, the invasions we’ve carried out have been in the context of some aggressive act, and they did not seek to incorporate the conquered territory as part of their own holding. Sometimes the reasons were good: Afghanistan, for instance. Sometimes not so good: Iraq, Vietnam, Grenada. But we never sought to permanently incorporate any of those places as part of the United States.

      Meanwhile Putin and many Russians, think Ukraine is supposed to be part of Russia. And Ukranians do not.

      This is the “right of self-determination of peoples”. It’s kind of a new thing, and that makes it a bit shaky, I suppose. But I hold this as a foundational piece.Report

      • I was going to say the Spanish-American war in 1898 when the US acquired Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines. But taking those wasn’t the initial intent of the war.Report

      • InMD in reply to Doctor Jay says:

        I don’t think it makes sense to take such a kind view of our own recent adventures. The fact that they haven’t been straight up wars for territory is cold comfort to those who have died or otherwise had their lives destroyed as a result of our hubris, to say nothing of the damage it’s continued to do to our own standing in the world. Russia’s invasion is of course also totally immoral but we should be clear eyed about all of this. No American policy has been exonerated.Report

        • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

          No one is – best I can tell – trying to exonerate US foreign policy with support to Ukraine. Nor does prior US misadventure justify GOP support of Russia.Report

          • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

            I’m not sure how this is responding to or debating my comment.Report

            • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

              No American policy has been exonerated.

              Report

              • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

                Ok. And did you read Doctor Jay’s comment it was replying to, that included the below?

                Sometimes not so good: Iraq, Vietnam, Grenada. But we never sought to permanently incorporate any of those places as part of the United States.

                We can think that on balance the right thing to do is help the Ukrainians (which I do) without making excuses for ourselves or acting like we aren’t fully capable of doing something just as dumb and destructive as the Russians are right now. I elaborated in a piece here:

                https://ordinary-times.com/2022/05/23/credit-where-it-is-due-lessons-from-the-war-in-ukraine-so-far/Report

              • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

                Again I don’t see anyone trying to exonerate the US simply be supporting Ukraine. I don’t see anyone here pretending the US doesn’t have baggage.

                I do see several commentators all but cheering Putin because he poked the US bear.Report

              • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

                Then your beef is with people making that argument. My argument is that we should be learning from the mistakes of an adversary. If your take is limited to Vlad is just as evil as we determined in 2016, and his GOP sympathizers are dumb and evil-er, then you aren’t really learning anything at all, and while you may be right on those points it’s in the same way that a broken clock can be. I suggest aiming higher.Report

              • PD Shaw in reply to InMD says:

                Doctor Jay was was contesting the claim that “Russia ain’t doing anything we don’t.” Doesn’t strike me as making excuses, just not seeing what Russia is doing as normal in a contemporary sense.Report

              • Philip H in reply to PD Shaw says:

                An assessment I fully endorse.Report

              • InMD in reply to PD Shaw says:

                Maybe but if so I’d find that an even more questionable assertion. My interpretation is that the attempt to annex territory is really a haphazard fall back plan to try and safe face after the attempt at regime change failed. I am not sure we should be patting ourselves on the back for being better at overthrowing governments, at least not in the context of this conversation.Report

              • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

                Considering the outcomes in Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam etc
                I don’t know that we are better at regime change. We just choose to do it farther away the right next door. I also don’t see anyone in this thread patting ourselves in the back – I do see a lot of people trying really hard to say it’s ok for Russia to invade Ukraine without actually saying it.Report