303 Creative Case is About Free Speech, Not Discrimination
The Supreme Court heard oral arguments in the case of 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis yesterday. This case centers around a Colorado law that bans businesses from discriminating against gay people. Lorie Smith, the owner of a website design company, sued to overturn the law on First Amendment grounds. Under the Constitution and legal precedent, there should be only one outcome in this case.
Smith wanted to expand her business to wedding websites. As SCOTUSblog describes, “Smith is a devout Christian who believes that marriage ‘is only between one man and one woman.’ So although Smith wants to expand her business to include wedding websites, she does not want to design websites for same-sex weddings, and she wants to post a message on her own website to make that clear.” This message would place her in violation of the law.
If this case sounds familiar, it’s because it is. Just four years ago, the Supreme Court heard a similar case, also from Colorado. In Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, the Court ruled that a Colorado agency attempting to enforce the same anti-discrimination law “showed elements of a clear and impermissible hostility toward the sincere religious beliefs motivating his objection.”
However, despite the precedent, a district court ruled against her lawsuit since Smith had not yet been found to be in violation of the anti-discrimination law. She appealed and the Supreme Court agreed to hear the case on the free speech question but not the free exercise question.
This case should be a clear-cut victory for the First Amendment. Government restriction of speech is precisely what the First Amendment is about. (Even though the Bill of Rights restricts explicitly the federal government, the first 10 amendments have also been extended to restrain the states through the incorporation doctrine.)
As we should all know, the First Amendment protects both the right to free speech and the freedom of religion. Both are applicable here.
In the United States, citizens have a broad latitude to claim freedom of religion and freedom of conscience for sincerely-held religious beliefs. In several recent cases, sincerely-held religious beliefs have won out over state laws, but the freedom of religion, like anything else, is not absolute.
One area where religion is not a get-out-of-jail-free card is racial discrimination. In the amusingly named 1968 case of Newman v. Piggie Park (“Newman!”), the Supreme Court refused to uphold the barbecue restaurant owner’s claim that his religion did not condone the mixing of the races.
The Court upheld the district court’s ruling stating, “Undoubtedly defendant Bessinger has a constitutional right to espouse the religious beliefs of his own choosing, however, he does not have the absolute right to exercise and practice such beliefs in utter disregard of the clear constitutional rights of other citizens. This court refuses to lend credence or support to his position that he has a constitutional right to refuse to serve members of the Negro race in his business establishments upon the ground that to do so would violate his sacred religious beliefs.”
So why is this case different than Piggie Park?
Despite what you may have heard, 303 Creative is not about discriminating against the LGBTQ community. It’s about the business owner’s right to refuse a specific type of business.
As SCOTUSblog explains, Smith is not seeking the right to refuse service to gays. The business owner says that she would “happily” design a website for an animal shelter owned by a gay customer. She does, however, want the right to refuse website orders that would conflict with her Christian beliefs. The belief that marriage “is only between one man and one woman” is part of those beliefs.
The state at least partially agrees with Smith. Colorado claims that the law merely regulates sales and does not mandate or ban any speech. In the state’s view, the law holds that any product being sold must be sold to all customers. In one hypothetical, the state points out that a Hindu calligrapher would not be required to create a product with a Christian message, but if the business did create such a product, it would be required to sell it to everyone.
Therein lies the rub. The wedding websites are personalized and not off-the-shelf products. Each product is unique.
A ruling for Colorado would require Smith to specifically craft an individual website for same-sex couples in addition to prohibiting her from posting a message on her own website stating her business policy. So, on the one hand, a private business would be mandated to engage in speech that violates its owner’s conscience and sincerely-held religious beliefs while on the other hand, it would be restricted from posting a message that conveyed its own principles. This outcome would not be consistent with the First Amendment.
But what about the same-sex couples who might be harmed by 303 Creative’s business decision? First, there are other options for websites. The simplest solution would be for these couples to find a web designer who wants their business, rather than pressuring someone to work for them against their will.
Rather than restricting the free speech of Christian business owners, people who believe that the company is engaging in immoral and unethical discrimination might do better to use their own First Amendment rights and engage in protests and boycotts.
As Justice Brandeis once wrote, “If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the process of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence.”
Rather than Piggie Park, this case seems more similar to Stormans, Inc. v. Wiesman from 2016. A Washington law prohibited pharmacists from refusing to fill prescriptions “because its owner objects to delivery on religious, moral, or other personal grounds,” but the owners of a local pharmacy refused to fill prescriptions for abortifacient drugs. In his ruling for the pharmacist Stormans, Justice Alito noted that there were other local pharmacies and that the Stormans had even offered referrals.
In the ruling, Alito quoted another Supreme Court case, Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah (1993), which stated, “The Free Exercise Clause commits government itself to religious tolerance, and upon even slight suspicion that proposals for state intervention stem from animosity to religion or distrust of its practices, all officials must pause to remember their own high duty to the Constitution and to the rights it secures.”
From time to time, religious freedom is going to conflict with well-meaning government mandates. Sometimes, maybe even often, these exercises of religious freedom are going to be unpopular and may seem bigoted. They may not represent mainstream religious doctrine and may not even make sense.
None of that matters.
What does matter is that the state must have a compelling interest in forcing someone to violate their conscience. This is not an insurmountable obstacle. For example, the Supreme Court has refused to strike down vaccination mandates without religious exemptions.
The question before the Court now is whether Colorado has a compelling interest in not allowing Lorie Smith to post a message on her website refusing business related to same-sex weddings. I don’t believe that it does, and I fully expect the Court to rule against the Colorado law.
As is often the case with conservative commenting on cases like this you are half right – this is about free speech intersecting with freedom of religion and public bigotry. Where you go wrong – as did a lot of comments on the cake baker case – is the notion that this business owner gets to enjoy her bigoted speech, made under the guise of her religion, without consequence. Like the baker, she wants to proudly announce her closed heart in a secular business setting without any sanction or repercussion. Which is never what freedom of speech or religion were about. She doesn’t want to be sanctioned by a secular state, much less market forces, for her open bigotry.
She and you also get the freedom of religion clause part of this horribly wrong. That part of the First Amendment was all about preventing the state from imposing a single state sanctioned religion on citizens. And while some of the Christian members of the first Continental Congress may well have hoped this would result in America being a Christian nation, the reality is that the wrote a clause that doesn’t permit the state to allow people to hide behind a specific religion either. Meaning that just as the nation is prevented form imposing a sate sanctioned religion, it is also enjoined from acting in any way that supports a single religion over others. So while a deeply held religious belief should be respected, its not the nation’s business to prevent secular consequences for that belief playing out just because a person’s religious belief engenders bigoted behavior.
Because bigots are anathema to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.Report
I think you’re blurring the distinction between being sanctioned by market forces and by the state. The private individual is free to support, avoid, or criticize any company. I doubt that Smith thinks she’s immune to market forces. But the role of the state with regard to religious freedom is completely different from the role of the individual.
To be honest, though, I have trouble thinking of this as a religious issue. I favor a broad understanding of freedom of association, which like the freedom of speech would allow some pretty ugly things.Report
Freedom of speech does allow some pretty ugly things. But the freedom of religion angle is really easy – if the state can’t impose a state sanctioned religion, the state can’t ALSO grant preferential treatment based on religion either. And the individual can’t be shielded by the state from impacts of individual decisions because of a religious belief. Which this case squarely asks SCOTUS to do.Report
I’m not following. Maybe I’m not familiar enough with this case, but could you explain that?
ETA: specifically, what this case has to do with “impacts of individual decisions”?Report
As Saul notes below, the appeal to SCOTUS is to allow her to actively discriminate based on her religious beliefs, and to post a statement to that effect on her website. If SCOTUS holds for her – and I suspect they will – they will be creating a government endorsement for discrimination based on religious beliefs of a single sect of a single religion. Whatever her right to free speech and free association (which like privacy is not an enumerated right), she doesn’t get to have the state shield her because of her religion. If she does, then everyone who professes a faith does – including Muslims, Jews, and adherent of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The Constitution doesn’t allow Congress – or the Courts – to call winners and loosers based on a religion. She and the ADF want them to.Report
OK, our problem is that you’re saying “if the government is allowed to do X, she can’t claim a religious exemption”, and for me, I don’t see why the government is allowed to do X. When you said “individual decisions” in your second comment, I guess you were referring to her decision to challenge / defy the law, and that’s unrelated to your earlier comment about “market forces”. She’s not seeking to be protected from repercussions other than the legal repercussions, correct? That is to say, if you agree that X is outside the government’s role, or that X should be tempered by a religious exemption, then she’s not asking for anything, right?Report
She’s asking the government to protect her right to discriminate based on her religion while conducting business with a government granted license. Which means she’s fundamentally asking for government preference for her religious views in the market place both of ideas and the actual economic market place. I don’t believe the Constitution allows any government body – including SCOTUS – to express such a preference.Report
Ah yes, but what of the religious liberty of the government official who is compelled to violate his conscience by granting her a business license?
Or the liberty of the utility workers who conscience does not allow them to turn on her power?
Or the ISP which allows her access to the internet?
The possibilities are endless.Report
true, and sort of the point. My religious views, for instance, would compel me to publicly call her apostate, and to question loudly whether she ever actually read the teachings of the Messiah she claims to follow, what with those teachings requiring unconditional love and compassion.Report
Indeed. This is why Justice Scalia was right in his decision in the case of Employment Division v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990): “The government’s ability to enforce generally applicable prohibitions of socially harmful conduct, like its ability to carry out other aspects of public policy, cannot depend on measuring the effects of a governmental action on a religious objector’s spiritual development.”Report
Individuals have liberty of conscience; government officials do not. Remember Kim Davis? It wasn’t up to her individual conscience whether she should issue marriage licenses to couples entitled under Kentucky law to have them. As a practical matter, she could have some other functionary in her office do the — to her — dirty work, but as a government official she had to permit the licensing process to go forward. Or quit a job she conscientiously cannot do.Report
I didn’t realize she was licensed. I’d need to hear a justification for that though.Report
Like any business person, she has state issued licenses, tax collection IDs and permits and other similar government credentials to do her work. In Colorado, they come with explicit language that prevents her from discriminating in doing her business against certain protected classes, including LGBTQ+ persons. What she’s asking the Court to do is tell Colorado that, because of her deeply held religious beliefs she is allowed to engage in that discrimination, while still keeping her licenses.Report
And you’d consider those licenses to be special favors?Report
Now I know you are intentionally trolling.
The licenses come with anti-discrimination requirements applied to all license holders. She is asking SCOTUS for the special favor of violating the anti-discrimination part of the license agreement because of her faith. She’s asking SCOTUS to tell Colorado that it can’t force her to serve everyone because SCOTUS believes her faith makes her exempt from this law. That’s the special favor she’s seeking.Report
I know we’re not going to agree, but I hope that you realize I’m being serious. I think we’ve both made progress on clarifying our positions though.Report
I don’t believe my position was ever murky. Afrfirming this woman’s right to post statements saying she won’t tale on LGBTQ+ clients because of her religion – much less allowing her to discriminate thusly – is to sanction a religion. The Constitution forbids that.Report
“Afrfirming[sic] this woman’s right to post statements saying she won’t tale[sic] on LGBTQ+ clients because of her religion – much less allowing her to discriminate thusly – is to sanction a religion. The Constitution forbids that.”
sadly for you, Congress disagreesReport
whoopy. Wrong is wrong. Unconstitutional is unconstitutional no matter how Alito might want to believe otherwise.Report
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/12/303-creative-gay-rights-free-speech-supreme-court.html
“When you first hear the facts of 303 Creative v. Elenis, you may be stirred to sympathy toward the plaintiff. According to her lawyers at Alliance Defending Freedom, Lorie Smith is just a humble website designer trying to make a living in accordance with her Christian beliefs. That means she must respectfully decline to create a wedding website for any same-sex couple, as such unions contradict her faith. Intolerant bureaucrats in Colorado are threatening to punish her for these deeply held beliefs. And so she has reluctantly asked the Supreme Court to shield her from this persecution.
That’s the story that ADF told the Supreme Court on Monday during oral arguments in 303 Creative. It’s the story that the court probably will adopt if it sides with Lorie Smith, as it very likely will. But it bears, at best, only a passing resemblance to the truth.
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The true origin story of 303 Creative is much less sympathetic than the lawyer-crafted narrative. Before this litigation, Lorie Smith appeared to be a normal website designer who advertised her services to all potential customers. In 2016, after ADF took her on as a client, she rebranded as a conservative Christian who channeled her faith in God through her work. Indeed, her revamped website included language seemingly finessed to transform her into a First Amendment test case, explaining that her “expressive content … communicate[s] ideas or messages.” Also worth noting: No same-sex couple has ever asked Smith to make them a wedding website; in fact, she has never made a wedding website for anyone. Her work to date focuses on local politicians, dog breeders, contractors, and houses of worship—not celebrations of life events. Nonetheless, ADF sued Colorado on Smith’s behalf in 2016, challenging a state law that bars anti-gay discrimination in public accommodations. Smith one day might be asked to make a same-sex couple’s website, ADF asserted. And when that day comes, she wants the right to say no.
303 Creative was one of many cases that ADF took on after 2016 to undermine LGBTQ non-discrimination laws. The organization was trying to argue that these laws violate the First Amendment, at least when applied to wedding goods and services. One such case, Masterpiece Cakeshop, reached the Supreme Court—but it was not resolved on the merits in the way ADF preferred. Instead, the justices got tripped up on the question of whether baking a cake constituted free speech, and decided it on other grounds. Others involved similar gray areas—a florist, a photographer—and fizzled out in lower court. 303 Creative had the benefit of involving “pure speech” rather than what lawyers call “expressive conduct” (like making a floral arrangement). ADF wanted this as a black-and-white dispute about Colorado compelling Smith to express a message in support of same-sex marriage that infringes on her conscience.”
ADF is an odious and morally repugnant organization with an Orwellian name. They are not defending freedom by any reasonable definition of the word. What the org states is “Younger people and large chunks of society no longer agree with us. How dare they!”Report
Indeed, Masterpiece Cakeshop was decided on grounds of procedural bias during the intermediate of three administrative hearing steps that took place before there was ever any judicial litigation. It turned out to be a big ol’ punt by SCOTUS and all the talk about whether making or not making the gay wedding cake (I thought cakes were all asexual but that shows you what I know) constituted speech, forced speech, free exercise, or state-enforced servitude.
I await a re-iteration of the usual rehash of whether statutes like anti-discrimination-in-public-accommodations laws constitute forced servitude to follow, but I’ll point out that “The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article [the Fourteenth Amendment].”Report
“Also worth noting: No same-sex couple has ever asked Smith to make them a wedding website; in fact, she has never made a wedding website for anyone.”
IANAL but isn’t this where “standing” comes in? She hasn’t actually been harmed by this law, right? She could potentially IF she is approached by a gay couple and IF she rejects them and IF they take action and IF that action leads to some sort of penalty from the state. But if all those things don’t happen, then she suffers no harm. And don’t lots of cases get dismissed based on “standing” because the person bringing the case isn’t actually being impacted by the law in question?Report
FWIW, I am an advocate of an expansive concept of “standing” and have no trouble with Smith seeking declaratory relief as a remedy before actually going out into the world and doing something that might constitute an act of discrimination. I dislike the idea of courts punting on resolving critical issues because of narrow understandings of the “standing” requirement. This is a real issue that needs resolution, and Smith’s proposition is as reasonable a way at getting at it as any.
So I side with Ms. Smith on this facet of the case.Report
I appreciate that reasonable perspective. But is that how the court traditionally looks at things? Or would they be acting out of character to grant her standing?
Alternately, could Colorado re-write their law a la Texas’s abortion law such that action is brought by private actors and basically make it impossible for anyone to file suit in a way that would overturn the law itself?Report
I’m more of a traditionalist than Burt. Not sure what the result of a violation of CO’s statute is but if it’s private right of action I’d say this isn’t ripe until she denies someone services and they sue. If it’s loss of license or some other state penalty I’d say it isn’t ripe until whatever authority in CO takes action against her.Report
What matters, of course, is how standing was understood in 1789.Report
Under Maryland’s great tradition of adherence to the common law it’s more like 1689.Report
Restaurant refuses service to Christian group, citing staff ‘dignity’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/food/2022/12/06/metzger-restaurant-family-foundation/
Because really, why should the restaurant staff be forced to violate their conscience?
Ooh ooh, Mr. Kotter, I know, I know!
Because the entire underlying premise of all these cases is hostility to the very concept of a civil society based on mutual respect and tolerance.
The society that these people propose is one where we are not constantly looking for ways to accept and embrace each other as fellow citizens, but a society where we are locked into squabbling and mutually hostile factions, seeking ways to reject each other.
Does it really violate Christian theology to write a cake for same-sex marriage?
Ha ha, of course not. There isn’t any plausible theological reason why this should “violate one’s conscience”. The theory is merely a fig leaf to conceal the naked appeal to intolerance.
As before, this is the existential battle we face for America’s future. Whose norms and set of taboos will become dominant and enshrined into law, and whose will not?Report
I’m old enough to remember when we were told that it was a terrible thing that Sarah Huckabee Sanders and her family and friends were denied service at a fine dining restaurant because of their political association with Donald Trump.Report
Burt, do you want that to be how we roll, or do you not want it?
Because if you want it that way, I’m pretty sure many people in the world would happily agree with you that it ought to be that way! But then you give us this silliness, this verbal diarrhea, and I start to think that maybe you want it to be that way but just for you.Report
Well, this case is about not just speech, isn’t it? It’s not that Ms. Smith wants to put on her own website a statement about her religious beliefs concerning marriage. It’s that she wants the right to act upon that statement of belief, which means she wants the right to turn away same-sex business (should any ever actually come her way, see above with Saul’s lengthy quote from Slate). Accepting or declining business offered from the general public is not something that seems like it would ordinarily be protected by freedom of speech or religion, at least not as most of us have been educated. But that’s ground that we’re breaking now with this case (Masterpiece Cakeshop having punted.)
The OP cites Newman v. Piggie Park, and is correct that this is a supreme court case, but links to a lower court decision in the plaintiff’s favor, no doubt because that court addressed the issues of interest to us here. Before the Supreme Court, the issue was narrowed to entitlement to attorney’s fees in Title II claims (spoiler: the plaintiff won, again). An interesting fact from the background to that case: the owner of the four-restaurant chain of “Piggie Park” restaurants was a fellow named Maurice Bessinger, who in the 1960’s when that case was brought against him, serving as the leader of a group charmingly called “the National Association for the Preservation of White People.” He sold Bibles in his restaurants along with tracts offering Biblical justifications for slavery, and justifying his conduct by saying that African-Americans got the best food because they got to eat directly in the kitchen. He does not appear to have ever learned the lesson the litigation should have taught him.
I think one day we’re going to look back on people like Lorie Smith and Jack Phillips the way we do people like Ollie McClung (of Ollie’s Barbeque fame) and Maurice Bessinger. But that day hasn’t come yet; the new generation of people resisting change is wrapping itself tighter in its flags, gripping their crosses tighter, and more importantly, leaning heavily upon a sympathetic faction of the judiciary. That last factor is the real difference between the previous generation of people resisting enforcement of anti-discrimination laws and the current one: the judicial deck has been stacked in their favor.
The basic premise of this case is substantially similar to Masterpiece Cakeshop and SCOTUS has only become friendlier to these arguments since four years ago. There’s every reason to expect Ms. Smith to prevail.Report
Well, I guess I can’t push back against this, because then I’d be on the wrong side of history. j/k. It seems like that’s your argument, though. Not “the law is on my side”, but “History will vindicate us, and besides, you know who makes these kind of arguments? Racists, that’s who!”Report
Let’s look at it this way. McClung and Bessinger invoked religion, speech, and association as reasons why they shouldn’t have to comply with the anti-discrimination laws. They lost.
Phillips invoked those same rights as reasons why he shouldn’t have to comply with the anti-discrimination laws. Technically he won on a different issue (one that wasn’t really even briefed all that much to SCOTUS) but the Court evidenced considerable sympathy to those claims. There’s every reason to think that Smith is going to prevail on them before this Court.
What, other than the makeup of the Court, has really changed? And given that, what does that tell us about our rights to express ourselves freely and our rights to be free from discrimination? It tells me that those rights are fluid and malleable, not eternal and unchanging.Report
The right to express ourselves freely is eternal; the right to be free from discrimination (beyond equality under the law) is silly and unworkable from the beginning. I guess you can believe that the Warren and Burger Courts discovered rights that had always existed but no one noticed until then, and then the current Court has turned political, but it’s just as reasonable that the Warren and Burger Courts were the legal and political outliers.Report
I refer the honorable commenter to a remark I made some moments ago:
And here it is. It wasn’t that no one noticed those rights didn’t exist, it’s that those rights hadn’t previously been made enforceable through statutes crafted to meet a Constitutional mandate. This is why these statutes are treated differently than, say, traffic regulations: they are specifically authorized by the Constitution to enforce its terms.
As a practical matter, the right to express ourselves freely has eternally been subject to substantial hole-poking by governmental and cultural influences, both before and after 1789. We have always had laws punishing defamation, prohibiting espionage such as dissemination of classified security information under threat of (potentially) death, restricting access to pornography or other obscene material, and the like. We have never had *absolutely* free speech and probably wouldn’t like it much if we did, especially in today’s brave new world of deepfake porn, targeted messaging algorithms, and instant global rumormongering. What constitutes those things (call them “exceptions” if you wish) is, and has always been, malleable according to prevailing norms and cultural pressures — for instance, if someone were to have called Oscar Wilde a homosexual today, it’s doubtful his response would have been a (foolish) defamation lawsuit, he’d probably say “Yeah I am, so what?” in response.Report
I’ll grant your first point. Those Courts did find a few other rights lying around that had gone unnoticed before, though. And I can still see those Courts as outliers if a more traditional jurisprudence comes along and recognizes limits that those Courts didn’t.Report
“[T]he right to express ourselves freely has eternally been subject to substantial hole-poking by governmental and cultural influences”
surprised to find you a champion of Roth v. United States but, hey, whatever it takes to get a win over those sadists, right?Report
“The right to express ourselves freely is eternal”
yeah well that’s just exactly what someone who wants to say THE ENN WORD without getting IN TROUBLE would sayReport
I hate the idea of government compelled speech.
However the more I think about this the more I’m not sure it’s about speech at all, or even religion. It’s about commerce, which is well within the authority of the state to oversee. If the rule is all are served then all must be served. No one has been denied their church, creed, or speech for that, and if someone can’t bear to do it then they need to find a career that does not involve services to the public.Report
I certainly see it more that way than not. The creation of a cake or a website strikes me as more of a commercial activity than an expressive one, even if the final product displays a great deal of artistry, skill, and craftsmanship. (Jack Phillips’ cakes produced at Masterpiece Cakeshop are indeed beautiful.) But it’s a fuzzy line when we’re talking about commissioned artwork. I can see the argument that even if the work is commissioned, I still express myself in it. Much of the great artwork in the western canon was created on commission and therefore fits within the artistic constraints and requests of the commissioner. We don’t stop respecting the artist or appreciating the artist’s message for her having worked on commission.
Let’s say the question is “What kind of shoes do you think would look good with this suit?” The shoe salesperson is making an artistic judgment (aesthetic, if you prefer) when presenting choices to the customer. But we’d never imagine that we’d permit a shoe store to not sell to someone based on their race, sex, sexual orientation or affinity, religion, or any other suspect class. It feels right and natural (to me, at least) to enforce the rights of individuals by using the government to prohibit that shoe store from discriminating on those bases. And if the shoe salesperson says “But my religion…” at least my immediate tendency is to respond with “Bullshit. Sell them the shoes.” I’m not alone in that.
But if the question is “What should happen next in this movie’s script?” we become very queasy about the government getting involved there. The movie is obviously a work of art, a work of expression, and it feels morally wrong and authoritarian for the government to involve itself in what does or doesn’t go into it. There are probably more artistic choices being made, and they’re probably more significant, than the shoe salesperson, but I suspect no one reading this words would be comfortable with the government having involvement in the making of a movie, excepting perhaps if there were good-faith national security concerns involved. And perhaps not even then. If the government were to say, “No, you can’t depict this thing,” pretty much everyone here would say, “Bullshit. The director can depict whatever she wants,” or at the very minimum, demand the government come up with a damn good reason why she can’t.
Decorating a wedding cake or crafting a website are somewhere in between these two things.Report
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I don’t disagree with any of that, but I also look at the question in a more simplistic way. To me what is determinative isn’t so much the artistic expression, it’s the setting up shop and offering a service to the public at large. Let’s take something arguably more expressive. Let’s say you’re the sketch artist that sets up shop on the boardwalk. I don’t have a problem saying that if you’re going to use your skill to run a business like that you can’t turn away anyone who walks up to you during your working hours that is willing to pay. That has no impact on an artist who, instead of offering a service to the public, just rents out a studio, paints whatever they want, then tries to sell what they made. It also doesn’t stop that same artist from declining artistic projects or custom work others propose to them for any or no reason. All it does is say if you put out a sign that says ‘portraits $100’ you have to do the portraits for anyone who pays and if you don’t want to do that then you find a business model that better suits your preferences.Report
I too hate government compelled speech.
I could see the argument if a gay couple went to her and said, “Please design us a website from scratch where you sing the virtues of our upcoming nuptials and the relationship that comes from them.”
But if they’re simply saying, “We want to enter the information into the boxes so that we get a nice pretty website that tells people when and where the wedding is and where they should say and MOST IMPORTANTLY where we are registered,” then she isn’t really engaged in speech.
So, what “wedding website service” does she actually offer?
Oh…. she hasn’t actually offered any wedding website services to anyone yet? Huh.Report
The entire approach here is wrong.
The approach is trying to define who CAN be excluded, shunned or exiled. A better approach is to ask who we MUST exclude, shun and exile.
What we call liberal democracy can only exist when there is widespread agreement to cooperate voluntarily with each other.
That website designer- her business relies on having a website of her own, which means she needs a webhosting agreement, email, email handler; She needs a phone number, and social media presence on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, all through an ISP.
She needs a business license, agreement with credit card companies for payment, and credit card processing companies, and in turn a bank willing to accept her business and so on and so on.
To paraphrase Clarence from Its A Wonderful Life, every business is in a massive web of voluntary cooperation, where any one of the web links can become a choke point for hostility and aggression.
When enough of those links choose to break apart, eventually liberal democracy itself becomes impossible.
It is necessary sometimes to shun and exclude members- Na.zis and pedophiles for example; But this needs to be done carefully and to the least degree.Report
So, the Archdiocese of Denver creates a new ministry: Wedding Website Design and contracts out to Smith.
Smiles all around; the new compromise legislation that is going to the President’s desk is what everyone wanted.
Right?Report
We get one of the parallel societies, though, right?Report
I dunno man. I’m not going to say there are no legitimately hard cases in this area but I’m not sure this is one of them. We’re talking about writing ‘bob and bob are getting married’ on a website here. If that creates such a crisis of conscience for someone I think they might be in the wrong line of work.Report
“If that creates such a crisis of conscience for someone I think they might be in the wrong line of work.”
If Saul’s link is accurate, she isn’t even in this line of work: she merely situated herself so that she could be the plaintiff in this lawsuit.Report
Yea, assuming that was right I still think the correct legal answer is the case is not yet ripe.Report
“If Saul’s link is accurate, she isn’t even in this line of work: she merely situated herself so that she could be the plaintiff in this lawsuit.”
It’s like when someone goes into a business that’s said it isn’t interested in having them as a customer and sues them for saying “we aren’t interested in having you as a customer”!Report
I guess I have a different take on this and the other cases. They all want to practice their religion on the public dime. If they were a church, ok- but as a profit oriented organization they rely on publicly funded infrastructure to operate. Utilities, mail, courts, police, streets, etc.. all funded by taxes. Taxes paid in part, by the very people they want to discriminate against. They will be denied services which are only possible through taxes they pay into. Essentially their taxes are being stolen to enable the baker’s or web site’s profits.
No one is forcing them to operate a public business. They knew the law (or should have) what the Public Accommodations laws in Colorado. They chose to defy that law.
And what is to stop other “religions” from not serving people they deem sinful?
Church of the White Savior could prevent a plumber designing a system for a black family. Its his sincere belief. Or the Temple of the Holy Fatherland member could reject a job to design a sign for a Jewish deli.
Either serve all the public or none. You don’t get to pick and choose.Report
Agreed.Report
ah-heh.
“policemen protect you. policemen are paid for by taxes. it’s illegal to not allow policemen to protect you. therefore, it is impossible for you to not benefit from taxes. therefore you’re a public entity and subject to whatever laws and regulations the government cares to put in place, and you have no recourse or option except to not exist.”Report