Why Putin Has Already Lost His War in Ukraine, Even If He Wins It.

Prathamesh Yemul

Prathamesh Yemul is a student of political science and international affairs. I am an online writer and operater of the blog at (https://s7uff7.wordpress.com/). His main focus of research and writing has been the war in Ukraine, the Middle-East post-Arab Spring, and also the situation in Afghanistan and South Asia in general.

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25 Responses

  1. InMD says:

    There was what I thought a pretty interesting story in the post back in August on the Russian intelligence failure:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2022/russia-fsb-intelligence-ukraine-war/

    Now seeing as how this is the post I think the whole series needs to be read with an grain of salt and assumption that the sources include various CIA and Blob triumphalists and influence peddling of limited credibility. But even giving them as little credit as possible I think it’s probable that the Russians completely misread the commitment of their proxies in Ukraine. It’s one thing to take money, advocate for Russian interests, and obstruct various Ukrainian nationalist projects and/or Western influence. It’s another entirely to be willing to die for someone else’s ideology when the shooting starts. And that’s where I do think you have to give the Zelensky government a lot of credit for having the nerve to stay in those early days. Once it became clear that there was not going to be the complete defection the Russians anticipated they found themselves in an actual war they weren’t prepared for.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

      One of the things we did at Leaguefest was visit the International Spy Museum.

      It was a fun little trip. One of the exhibits I remember was about George Warshington Himself. There was a section devoted to how he was also a spymaster and it contained this line:

      As one defeated British intelligence officer is often quoted as saying, “Washington did not really outfight the British. He simply out-spied us.”

      I think that there’s another thing going on, though… Putin refused to believe things that were true even after seeing proof. It ain’t hard to out-spy a guy who does not believe things that are demonstrably true because he prefers his theories.Report

      • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

        Humans are very much motivated reason-ers, and I think that has been the story of early 21st century warfare. And that’s kind of where my caveat about the Post and its sources comes in. At least as far as the official record goes our own intelligence agreed with Putin’s assessment. Otherwise there’s no way we would have believed that Ukraine would fall in a few days, purely based on the numbers of Russian forces committed.Report

      • PD Shaw in reply to Jaybird says:

        One of the reasons Washington was successful with intelligence was he encouraged his officers to foster their own spying operations/networks so long as they shared with him the intelligence. Decentralized ops, encouraging individual initiative are successful American features of war.

        But the British lost for a lot of other reasons, including not having enough men to pacify the colonies, alienating non-affiliate Americans by their occupation, particularly the Hessian mercenaries, and performing poorly in a war of movement (which can be attributed to hostile natives and poor intelligence).Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

        Soldiers hate to admit they were out fought. The brits were out fought by us and even worse by the French. Easy to blame tricksy spies. A classic variation of the stabbed in the back story losers love to tell themselves.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to InMD says:

      Institutionally, Putin can’t make decisions based on reality.

      Putin’s ideology includes the state will define what “truth” is. So the Russian military is thought to be very strong simply because anyone who reports problems or anything other than the official “truth” has serious problems. “Problems” can include being arrested or even murdered.

      Up and down the entire chain of command, no one is willing to talk about problems they see, everyone tells their superiors what they want to hear.

      The Russians thought they were prepared for the war. They’d roll over everything and set up “reeducation” camps and all the nasty aspects of Soviet Empire. The West would weakly stand by and watch this happen.

      They not only didn’t know how strong they were or how much Ukraine would resist, but they couldn’t know it because it wasn’t the Truth the state wanted to exist.

      Edit: And presumably this is still a problem. Putin may STILL have people telling him the Ukraine will fold, probably in the Winter. The troops don’t have moral problems. The various supply issues have been resolved.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

        It also shows the drawbacks of a kleptocracy. All the institutions in Russia are run by corrupt oligarchs, and surprise, every effort is crippled by skimming and graft.

        From what I’ve read, part of the low morale among Russian soldiers is that their pay and bonuses are getting skimmed by the commanders.Report

      • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

        I think it’s a little more complicated and a little less Putin-specific. We had similar fundamental problems in Iraq and Afghanistan. The difference is that we’re way richer, our actual brass isn’t corrupt (at least not to the point it’s willing to sell or tolerate the selling of the tires on their trucks anyway), and our military industrial complex is dedicated to making our technology work most of the time in exchange for its perpetual siphoning under limited quality controls. But I’m not sure that, say, Donald Rumsfeld, was leaps and bounds ahead of Putin in any qualitative way.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    Gummibear737 has a very interesting thread on twitter here:

    I’ll use the threadreader app to share the whole thing in case it disappears:

    To the Republicans complaining about the billions the US is sending to Ukraine

    I’m going to share with a private opinion from a knowledgeable European official I know

    Basically, he starts off smiling and saying the US are “absolutely ruthless” with regard to the Ukraine war

    1
    I reponded that America is footing most of the bill for this

    He laughed, hard

    He said: win, lose or draw, the Americans win

    Main points
    -“Money” being sent to Ukraine is mostly in form of arms/weapons
    -They’re sent via “lend-lease” meaning Ukraine will have to pay it back

    2
    -It wasn’t until after Ukraine showed that it would not be occupied by Russia, that the US committed big budgets and armaments
    -After the war, the EU will be on the hook for rebuilding Ukraine, integrating them into the union and thus helping pay back the US lend-lease arms

    3
    -The US is passing off older, strategically obsolete weapons which would eventually be replaced (HIMARS)
    -The US didn’t part with any of their most effective and technologically advanced systems (helicopers, planes)
    -NATO is strengthened under US leadership

    4
    -America will achieve all its strategic objectives on the cheap
    -Europe will need to invest in their military which will mean big business for the US
    -Russian armaments have been exposed as inferior so Russia will lose global marketshare to the US military industry

    5
    -Europe is essentially decoupled from the Russian energy tit, creating a huge opportunity for US LNG
    -Europe falls completely out of Russian influence
    -The Russian military is grounded down by Ukraine with no American soldiers dying
    -Russia finished as a threat to US influence

    6
    -The US can now focus all military attention towards containing China
    -This is also a wakeup call for EU to take China seriously as a military adversary
    -EU-China relations have been set back decades in terms of cooperation

    7
    -The days of the US having to twist the EU’s arm to not let Huawei build their 5G system are over
    -China’s slow moving influence campaign into Europe is essentially done
    -China now needs to think much harder about invading Taiwan…both militarily and strategically (sanctions)

    8
    The conclusion was that whatever the actual costs to the US, it’s peanuts compared to the accomplishment of these strategic objectives which will be reaping dividends for years to come

    Ultimately the EU will shoulder most of the suffering while the US reaps the benefits

    9
    Some people are asking me for proof…it’s an analysis…and it’s by someone else

    You can fact check the lend-lease aspect but even if it’s not repaid it doesn’t change the main point

    I did a deepdive on this in May but didn’t touch much on geopolitics

    And he links to his deepdive:

    Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

      Ultimately the EU will shoulder most of the suffering while the US reaps the benefits

      Russia is in Europe and thus the War is in Europe. Further members of the EU have been getting close to Russia as though it were a normal country in spite of the US pointing out that it’s not. As expensive as the US winning could/will be, it’s no where near as bad as Russia winning.

      Putin is trying to put Russia’s empire of fear and brutality back together. The choices are stopping him or not stopping him.Report

  3. Marchmaine says:

    This is a good summation of May 2022, and, as you note, holds up through Sept. I’m reminded, though, how kinetic military actions, special military operations and even wars have longer horizons than our twitter feeds can handle. Ukraine fending off the blitzkrieg was indeed impressive. A nod to realist notions that nuclear umbrellas should be reserved for existential threats, and conventional balancing of interoperable arms more important for local threats. Knowing the difference is the lost art.

    But, back to the present moment, I just don’t know if we’re witnessing the collapse of the Russian regime or merely the first phase of the war… we could go back and look at the Battle of the Marne in 1914 and remember how it was all going to be over by Christmas. The Entente (well, the French anyway) had cutoff the Allied overextension and, well, all downhill from there.

    I’m not entirely sure what the Ukraine and Zelensky govt have as ‘acceptable terms’ in their minds… could be the complete removal of all Russian nationals from Donbas/Crimea – a sort of Greece/Turkey 1922 swap of populations… could be some sort of negotiated settlement that trades territory for hardened boarders and third party guarantees plus military aid… which they’ve signaled in the past. I suspect the latter more than the former; but we shall see.

    The thing about exit strategies during war (or special military operations or kinetic actions) is that both sides want the ‘upper hand’ during negotiations… but hands change over time, and the lower hand has incentive to double down to become the upper at a later phase. In any event, I doubt Russia entertains negotiations prior to seeing what father winter brings to the table in terms of hand-shaping-events. But, who knows, maybe China has alternate notions.

    And, from Ukraine’s perspective, gaining an upper hand works against the notion of crafting an exit strategy – why do so with victory obviously immanent? Nevertheless, as noted above, I doubt there’s a negotiation strategy prior to winter… absent a strategic breakthrough or Russian internal change (or Chinese notions).

    Which is all to say… war is unpredictable; a rolling of the dice. Knowing when to pick-up the dice is the art of statecraft.Report

    • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

      I’m a bit more optimistic for the Ukrainians, and way more than I was a few months ago. My belief is that if the war stays conventional, the Western arms and money spigot stays on, and Russia doesn’t mobilize, then Ukraine will eventually outright defeat Russian forces, at least back to roughly the lines on February 23. The question is how and whether Russia will (can?) react to that eventuality. That’s where I think we are completely in the dark, no matter how many meltdowns there are in Russian milblogs or tv.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

        I’m less sanguine about non-negotiated return to status quo ante … it’s certainly possible; but Russian retrenching around a greater Donbas position that’s less convex and has fewer salients is more likely.

        Military optimism for me would be retaking Kherson and holding the Dnieper in the south and folding back the Karkiv salient in the North East as a possible end to offensive operations by Russia (for now).

        But that’s where I think your point about greater Russian mobilization (schroedinger’s mobilization?) also kicks in… abandoning the Kyiv Blitz strategy and doggedly holding a greater Donbas/Crimea is a realistic option.

        Not sure if that’s really an optimistic strategic outcome, though…Report

        • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

          Yea, I certainly get uncomfortable about making any predictions that seem to rely on the dynamics of internal Russian politics.Report

        • Brent F in reply to Marchmaine says:

          The Zaporizhzhia Oblast’s coast looks a lot more vulnerable to a counterattack today than it did two weeks ago. Its terrible defensive terrain where there’s been a lot of reports of partisan activity and the flanks and rear of any thrust southward are no longer threatened by Russians in Izium.Report

    • North in reply to Marchmaine says:

      The diplomacy will only start in earnest once both sides see some form of settlement as being preferable to the war itself continuing. The Russians are too deluded and have too much strength to really want to negotiate yet and the Ukrainians have very realistic expectations that they can succeed in driving the Russians back and a population that is too supportive of pushing for total victory to feel very incented to settle at this point.
      In the autumn the big question is how if/how much the Ukrainians can roll back the Russians and if/how much the Russians can institutionally sustain those losses. Once we get to winter the true test will fall on Europe- when the energy shortage really starts to bite hard how will the masses respond to the inevitable sharp recession? Russia is gambling that the angry European masses will oust supportive Governments in favor of Governments that’ll push the Ukrainians to settle or (best case from the Russian pov) all out riots in Europe over energy. If Europe stiff-upper-lips through to the spring then Russia is going to be up the creek without a paddle.Report

      • Marchmaine in reply to North says:

        I largely agree; mildly disagree about the creek and paddle though. More likely: if the Russian winter gambit fails to tip the hand decisively in their favor then they negotiate a smaller truce… how small? Depends on the next 1-3 months.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to North says:

        Russia was only supposed to start losing over the long haul. They’d run out of weapons/troops/etc and their economy would be damaged.

        Given how badly Russia has been losing this week, the long haul may already be here. This may not last until the winter.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

          If you aren’t going to pay your soldiers at some point they will stop wanting to be shot at.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

            Lack of pay is only one issue. They’ve been told they’re winning, fighting Nazis, and will be welcomed by the locals. Their equipment and training are both non-existent to terrible.

            Their best solders have already been used. Their median soldier is unmotivated unequipped cannon fodder. Presumably Putin doesn’t know this. Their leadership will try to brutality their way through this.

            The West’s supply lines are longer but can’t be disrupted and should be fully stocked by now. Russia is already being pushed back, and it’s only going to get harder for them.Report

        • North in reply to Dark Matter says:

          From your lips to God(ess?)’s ears. I can only presume the Russians will reset their lines. The Ukrainians aren’t still romping around in the north now as far as I know. I don’t have a reliable place to get daily updates on Ukraine and I don’t sift through twitter. I’ve found Farley’s posts over at LGM pretty good though.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to North says:

            Adam Silverman at Balloon Juice is also a good source.Report

          • InMD in reply to North says:

            I follow the ISW/Critical Threats Updates.Report

          • Brent F in reply to North says:

            On the Northern front the Russians don’t have a good point to reanchor the line and don’t have good logistics hub close to the front line, so they’re likely to lose more before things stabilize. However, even in the event of continued total Ukranian success, I doubt they venture far into northern Luhansk because

            1. There’s not a lot worth very much there
            2. It pushes them into an unfavourably exposed salient.Report

  4. Chip Daniels says:

    One irreversible victory achieved by Ukraine is to demolish the myth of superiority of the fascists like Putin and Orban.

    One of the biggest features which drew the admiration of Western fascists was the aura of them being some invincible juggernaut, and their victory inevitable by virtue of their intrinsic (and here you can pick and choose your attributes) masculinity, traditional cultural values, discipline, or Christianity.

    Remember all those American fascists having a man crush on the shirtless Putin on horseback? Or the way they compared the manly men of the Russian army to the “woke” girly boys of the Americans? How they cheered for Orban at CPAC?

    That myth is laughable as we see Russian troops dropping the guns and fleeing in terror from advancing Ukrainian troops, some 20% of whom are women.

    Their weakness combined with the widespread reports of torture and war crimes in the areas they control shows us what the world of the fascists and their supporters looks like.Report