Swearing Is Good For the *#$%^$@ Soul, or Something

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

Related Post Roulette

45 Responses

  1. Oscar Gordon says:

    We tried. We tried so hard to not be the parents who would cuss in front of the kid.

    All I can say is that my wife started it, because she just has a damn foul mouth when she’s behind the wheel.

    At this point, we’re just trying to keep it to a minimum, since he knows the basic words now (and he still giggles at us when we slip up). At the very least, we’ve gotten him to agree to only swear at home, and not at school, or swim lessons, or soccer camp, etc.Report

    • InMD in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      We also had great intentions of not swearing in front of our son. Like many such things it did not survive contact with our old commutes on the capitol beltway.

      Amusingly I can pinpoint the exact moment when we moved from ideals to damage control, which was around Christmas when my son was 2. I have a really cool rustic looking, hand carved wooden Santa decoration from Germany. He of course got his grubby little toddler hands on it and popped off one of the little pieces, resulting in my go-to GD it. Apparently while I was rooting around the garage for the super glue he went over to his mother and was joyously yelling ‘Damn! Damn! Dammit!’. When I got back she was pink from trying to hold in the laughter.

      Anyway now at 5 he periodically tells us he has to get his bad words out. We then let him to go to the bathroom and say whatever he has to say. We allow this and plan to continue to as long as it keeps it from coming out at school or somewhere else in public and isn’t too frequent. So far so good but I’m no fool. It’s only a matter of time before we get a phone call.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      I’m the worst behind the wheel. When my daughter was little she picked up on it and when my wife heard her imitating me, she told her those were “daddy’s driving words” were not for kids.Report

    • Fish in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      In the end, we decided that it was better to teach the boys the proper use–including when not to–of all sorts of colorful metaphors. “Look, you can use these words, but if you use them within earshot of someone who doesn’t like them there will be consequences.”

      I mean, I was in the military, I played tennis and golf in high school, and I work on computers. If I didn’t cuss I would most certainly die.Report

  2. Kazzy says:

    I sometimes wonder why we stress so much about kids cursing and whatnot. It’s not like we think those are so verboten that no one ought ever use them. We just seem to think, “It’s totally fine for adults to use them but absolutely awful when kids do.” Like… why? I share the same sort of visceral feeling of “Just… no! Kids shouldn’t swear!” But can anyone really articulate a clear reason why they shouldn’t? Outside of it just violates social norms that can’t well be explained?

    More broadly (steps onto soapbox)… I think there are many areas where we actually have high expectations for children than adults. How would any of us respond if we ordered a coffee, “One large with milk and sugar,” and the barista looked at us for a moment and then said, “What’s the magic word?” We’d punch that guy square in his face. Are you kidding me? And yet… we do that ROUTINELY with children! Etc etc etc. Now… there are social norms — including those related to manners — that kids do need to be taught. But we seem to act as if they must demonstrate them perfectly consistently. We all know there are plenty of ways to show you are a well-mannered decent person beyond saying please-and-thank-you. Tone of voice, body language, facial expression, etc… all of that can matter as much if not more than the exact words we use to have a positive interaction with someone. And yet… we (and I include myself… as I fall victim to this myself as much as anyone) so often will refuse to allow kids to move forward in life without a perfect adherence to one of these expectations and yet we’d all flip our lid (something else we give kids minimal room to do themselves) if we were treated the same way.Report

    • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

      I think it’s worth teaching the ideal even if we all know we will often fall short of it in the course of life. Just knowing it exists and needs to at times be applied has value and there are contexts where it really can matter. Maybe in a certain sense there’s no great reason that you can’t talk to colleagues at work the way you would friends at a bar but we all know it’s important to understand a line exists, and eventually there can be negative consequences for crossing it. Children of course are terrible at things like context and nuance to say nothing of consequences and you have to start somewhere.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

      I think it’s important that, like all other behavior, that we model it as well, and not just insist upon it. We also take the time to explain why manners are a good thing.

      So I don’t just remind Bug to mind his Ps & Qs, but I make sure to mind mine as well. I also explain to him how doing so, at the very least, costs you nothing but a couple of syllables and can help brighten anothers day. And, making it a habit to be polite more often than not reaps benefits in that when people are faced with honey or shite, they are going to want to deal with the honey.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        @InMD and Oscar

        I’m not saying never teach it or that time/place don’t matter… in fact I often argue that time and place are probably what matter most and while kids are indeed bad at nuance they can learn to code switch quite adeptly (exhibit A: kids who behave differently with different parents or at home vs school).

        It’s just that we act like a kid cursing is a mortal sin or deny kids thing because they forget “the magic word.” That isn’t how the world works so why do we teach them that way?Report

        • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

          Heh in a vain attempt to prevent them from reflecting poorly on our parenting I guess.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

            I’d say that the world kinda does work like that.

            Not in the “what’s the magic word?” sense but in the “be on the good side of the people who serve you your food” sense. In the “people will make judgments about you based on your behavior and being polite will, at worst, go unnoticed”.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

              Sure… but do you think poorly on people who ask nicely but maybe omit the word please when doing so sometimes?

              “NO SNACK UNTIL YOU SAY PLEASE!” doesn’t really show them any reality. It’s just about controlling kids.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                There are a dozen ways to ask nicely.

                When I worked behind the counter, I certainly noticed when the customer wasn’t using so much as one of them.Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                IIRC Kazzy is corresponding with us from Jersey right? I’m pretty sure that up there the guy giving you the coffee has his feelings hurt if you don’t tell him to go f himself and you’d never return to a place where the cashier didn’t tell you to shove the change up your a–.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                “Go Eff Yourself!” (puts 50 cents into tip jar)
                “Thank you! You too!”Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to InMD says:

                One of the things I never got used to when I lived in NJ was having to (once literally) reach across the counter and grab the retail clerk and demand they take my money.

                At that time, if business travel took me west of about the Mississippi River, I found myself overtipping for what was (locally) rather mediocre service.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                That’s kind of my point. With adults, we recognize there are multiple ways to show that you are a decent person who is interacting thoughtfully with someone.

                With kids… it is the magic words OR ELSE!

                I mean, even if you ordered your coffee kinda obnoxiously, you’d still get your coffee. The barista wouldn’t say, “You can have your coffee when you ask nicely.”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I don’t have kids and don’t know, but I imagine that there is a transitional period between where the kid has zero ways to ask nicely under their belt and where the kid has three or four.

                “Always say please and thank you!” is probably a good way to move from zero to one.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                It’s more than that. We’re not simply teaching children to say a courteous word or two; we’re trying to teach them to be courteous, to think in a selfless way. Most children aren’t courteous, and no one starts out courteous. When we teach children to “think of others”, we’re actually teaching them *how to think*.

                And this is supported by human history. Respectful manners typically translate into respectful attitudes toward others. Societies that don’t teach respect (say, to certain groups) don’t find that respect develop spontaneously. Selfish kids grow into selfish adults. The generations since the Greatest have demonstrated how bad manners lead to bad civics.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Well… asking nicely by what standards? Some children who are not yet talking can learn to sign “more.” This is certainly “nicer” than merely crying when they want more food or trying to grab everything on the table. But that wouldn’t really fly for a 16-year-old or 36-year-old who wanted another plate of bottomless fries at Red Robin.

                If a 4-year-old you were eating with were to look at you, smile, and in a pleasant voice say, “Can I have another glass of water?” would you respond with, “What’s the magic word?”

                What if it was a 44-year-old?

                Again, I’m not saying we shouldn’t teach kids social norms with regards to manners and politeness. But sometimes the expectations seem HIGHER for kids than for adults. And that is what I bristle at. Like, I’ve literally seen teachers who have refused to provide kids more snack until they say please. What adult would tolerate that?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                There are several standards and that’s why it’s important, when one is asking nicely, to use maybe three or four at once.

                But there is a point at which we have none and a point at which we have the dozen.

                Moving from zero to one is the tricky one and if someone said that they wish to use a different one than “please/thank you”, that’s great.

                But, there are worse zero-to-ones than “please/thank you”.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                And my point is that we are far more forgiving of the adult who uses zero than the child who does. And that boggles my mind.

                [Barely looks up from phone, terse voice] “Large black coffee.”
                “Here you are sir! Thanks for coming to Starbucks.”

                “Can I have juice?”
                “Can I have juice…?”
                “Can I have orange juice?”
                “Can I have juice….???”
                “Uhhh… can I have juice please…?”
                “There ya go. Yes, you can have juice.”

                Treat the former like the latter and we’d hear about how entitled the barista was.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                And to be clear, I agree that basic niceties cost nothing more than a half a second and a half a breath. More sincere signs of gratitude and graciousness have value that often far outpaces the effort they require. And I think it genuinely just feels better to be decent and treat people decently.

                When Mayo used to come to work with me, we’d have to navigate about 3 blocks of city walking through a busy neighborhood. One day he noticed that I’d reflexively say, “Excuse me, sorry,” if I bumped into anyone or our paths crossed in such a way that someone had to break stride. He asked why I would always apologize even if it was clear that it wasn’t my fault. I explained it never hurts to just handle it kindly and move on. And I’d venture to guess that moment was far more meaningful to him than any badgering into “magic words.” So I’m fully on board with being decent and gracious and kind to folks as a default and in working to instill this sense in children.

                I’m just more bothered than — sometimes in the pursuit of doing so — we not only treat children indecently but we create higher standards for kids who are still learning than for adults who ought to already know this stuff.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

                I agree that it’s much more important to model it than to insist upon it. Although in the early days I did remind Bug to mind his manners (I don’t ever think either of us used the term “magic word”).

                We don’t bother too much if he’s excited and running about, it’s just not going to happen except by happenstance.

                And I’ve noticed with him it’s much more consistent when he’s on his ADD meds.

                Right now we are working on ordering at restaurants. Things like making eye contact with the server and speaking up and clearly (& manners).Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Jaybird says:

                One of Cain’s Laws™ — all based on years of observation in college and a professional career — says always be polite and courteous to the people at the bottom of the pecking order. Because when it’s the department AA or the clerk in purchasing, (a) the problem probably isn’t their fault and (b) they can make your life much more unpleasant if they want to.

                I was exceedingly polite to the clerk in purchasing that called to tell me the $750,000 (1984 dollars) purchase order for capital equipment was rejected because the company’s entire capital budget had been spent already. Didn’t do any good to curse or scream at her for allowing someone to spend the money I had board approval for. Much more satisfying when the VP responsible for tracking purchasing funds got canned for letting someone else spend my money.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Michael Cain says:

                When I was a kid, mom told me the story about how she would regularly bring in a plate of brownies for her department and would bring in two small, extra, plates. One for the principal’s secretary and one for the head janitor.

                She talks about how the one year that everything went to heck with the ventilation and there weren’t enough fans to go around, her classroom got one.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain says:

                This is truth. In the military, we were known as the E-4 Mafia. E-4 is the lowest of the non-commissioned officer ranks. And while you barely have any power to alter the orders from above, you do have the rank and enough time in service to develop the non-comm network, such that you do have the power to make life unpleasant for anyone below flag rank.

                Don’t cross the E-4 Mafia, it never ends well.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to Kazzy says:

          I don’t think it’s a mortal sin, I just know kids aren’t always the best at code switching for things they find amusing.

          Bug is 10 now, he knows when it’s appropriate and not, so we don’t make a big deal of it.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            Agree 100%. I don’t think we should encourage kids to use this language or turn a blind eye to it or anything.

            But as InMD mentions above, we do tend to think poorly on a family where a child uses a swear word. Schools are more likely to call home if a young child utters a single curse word than most other things that are probably more indicative of an actual concern with their behavior.

            Situational awareness, moderation, reading the audience… all of those are really important skills and you’re right that kids are still working on them. So giving them “tools” that require those underlying skills to use adeptly isn’t a great idea. But it also isn’t a character flaw — on anyone’s part — if a kid experiments with the tool before they’re quite ready to. In fact, that is how they will learn how to harness it.

            I mean, think about how much adult humor is predicated on what we’d label “bathroom words” if uttered by a kid? It’s not that it is wrong to think jokes about our bodies and its function is inherently wrong. It’s that there is a time and place for it.

            In short, I’d say that if we see these things through the lens of social norms and we work to help kids learn how to navigate them in all their complexity and nuance, we’re doing it right. If we’re making it a moral issue, we’re doing it wrong.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Kazzy says:

      I don’t think it’s totally fine for adults to swear. It makes them look either stupid or angry-stupid. But with kids, there’s an additional element that links to an ongoing conversation on this site. A lot of swear words are anatomical or sexual, and I don’t think kids should be exposed to sexual things before they’re old enough to understand them.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Pinky says:

        I think that… like many of these other conversations… pretends like we don’t know that words or concepts can mean different things in different contexts.

        If one adult calls another adult an a-hole, does anyone actually envision a sphincte? Or do we all know that that word is talking about their character/behavior and not about an actual body part?Report

      • rexknobus in reply to Pinky says:

        Nah. All words are tools with which to communicate. Sometimes you want to quote Keats, sometimes you want to use a baseball analogy. Sometimes you want to say “serendipitous,” sometimes “lucky.” Sometimes you raise your voice for emphasis, sometimes you lower your voice for emphasis. Swear words can be used in many ways. Like all words, they are not always applicable or proper, but a sign of stupidity? Nah.

        And this “old enough to understand them” thing always throws me a little. It seems to me that almost everything I was ever exposed to was beyond my understanding until I was exposed to it and played with it a little. Seeing the “F” word scratched on a wall was far less damaging than algebra. (And, yes, I came to understand both).Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Kazzy says:

      I think that there are a lot of people who believe that if you raise a critical number of kids right and enough of them manage to keep these good features like politeness, innocence, and whatever else into adulthood then we can build a better society.Report

  3. Jaybird says:

    From what I understand, Coprolalia in Tourette’s Syndrome has evolved to no longer focus on words that were taboo back in the 70’s and 80’s but now focuses on words that are taboo in the current year.Report

  4. Pinky says:

    That scene from The Wire was overindulgent. The show had believably bad language most of the time, but that scene was just so Writers’ Room.Report

  5. Michael Cain says:

    My band teacher in high school was a retired Army Master Sergeant, so we knew that if he wanted to he could turn the air blue. I never heard him swear. But even without swearing, or even raising his voice, he could make you feel lower than dirt.Report