I’ve Had My Fill: Of Limited Faith or Interest in Contemporary Politics

J R Leonard

J.R. Leonard is an economist, erstwhile paratrooper, and aspiring fiction writer. He is a New Yorker by birth and an expat by circumstance. You can find more of his writing at Dutch Comfort. He Tweets infrequently at @JRLthewriter.

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141 Responses

  1. Chip Daniels says:

    Its astounding that something like this could be written today, in 2022.

    The last 6 years witnessed the most successful application of politics in changing the status quo in decades, and yet here someone is telling us that politics doesn’t work. Politics has resulted in reversing the Supreme Court and blocking action in Congress and is busy now stripping rights from illions of Americans.

    In California by contrast politics drove the Republican Party to near extinction, and the state is operating like a normal democracy and protecting its citizens and solving problems.

    “Politics doesn’t work” is what supporters of fascism tell us as a method of keeping the people quiescent and demoralized.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      If you consistently find yourself saying “I can’t believe that someone else has a different experience of the world than I do”, you may wish to conclude that the problem is with your inability to believe in things rather than in the ability of others to do unbelievable things.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

        When people say “I can’t believe you wrote this”, its a polite way of saying something stronger.

        Like, instead of saying “I can’t believe some people think that not caring about politics is a privilege” the author here wrote more bluntly “This is a stupid idea”.

        Should I be more blunt?Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          It might help people come to conclusions other than “Chip can’t comprehend someone not agreeing with him and that is a massive failure of imagination on his part.”

          I’d suggest coming at it from an angle other than “I know that everybody reading my comment right now agrees with me on the important moral issues”, though. There are a lot of people who might come from different cultures than the one that you’re immersed in.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

        simpsons-noitsthechildren.jpgReport

    • j r in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      I was going to offer a serious response to this comment, but then I got to this part:

      “In California by contrast politics drove the Republican Party to near extinction, and the state is operating like a normal democracy and protecting its citizens and solving problems.”Report

  2. DrSloperWazRobbed says:

    The best part of that was “But I mean this to be a beginning, not an end, the first in a series”, because brother, this needs to be the start of your 95 Theses. Maybe it is because I see things through an economics discipline lens myself, but this was one of the best breakdowns of this issue I have ever read, and I’ve read a few.
    People keep saying this country isn’t built for third parties. I am firmly moderately left but I’d be happy to join some kind of third party with someone who is eg moderately right if we both agreed on the inherent bad faith of the two main parties.
    And you will be one of our thought leaders. Frankly, Ordinary Times in general would be the new Brookings/Heritage hybrid.Report

  3. Jaybird says:

    This was a good essay. I have a lot of sympathy for a lot of the points made.

    When I keep gaming stuff out, I keep coming to outcomes like divorce or war. Maybe it takes a long time (that is, after I die) and maybe I get to see the beginnings of it but I don’t see a return to something vaguely like an extended period of normalcy without a bunch of strife.

    One of the people I read had the take that there are three ways we can do this:
    1. Blue boot on red neck
    2. Red boot on blue neck
    3. Leave each other alone

    3 is, apparently, not an option. So now what?

    I really enjoyed your section #2. When I read the sub-points, I found myself sitting up straighter to write a comment addressing this or that point but then you went on to do a better job than I could have.

    This was a good essay.Report

    • DrSloperWazRobbed in reply to Jaybird says:

      Haha that is good, that thing about 3 not being an optionReport

    • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

      I made a comment recently that the Dobbs world may see a greater geographic sorting. Don’t you think that could alleviate the pressure toward “divorce or war”?Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

        In the past, whenever I get asked for something akin to a longer-term solution, I tended to suggest something like “Federalism For Real This Time” (here and here are a couple of examples, if you like flashbacks).

        But that’s an emphasis on “Leave each other alone”.

        There isn’t a Utopia out there. There *IS*, however, a neighborhood that is good enough for what you’re going for, personally. And that neighborhood might be different if you are 20 than if you are 30 than if you are 40 than if you are 50 than if you are 65 than if you are 80.

        And when it’s time, move from your no-longer-suitable neighborhood to the new not-quite-a-utopia when the time comes.Report

        • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

          In the past people have remarked that nobody (virtually and almost literally) actually believes in FFRTT. And that moving is a complicated and difficult solution that doesn’t do nearly as much as anybody should think. Even with our current geo sorting Red states have lots of Blue people and vice verse.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

        I don’t, if for no other reason then red state politicians are still crowing about passing laws when next they have the trifecta to take the red state positions nationwide. Should they have the option, I fully expect them to do so. Which means they don’t intend to leave the blue states alone.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

          I doubt they’d have enough votes in Senate to get rid of the filibuster and I also doubt they’d have enough votes to actually pass whatever.

          We’d see a repeat of what Team Blue has now. In theory they’re all in favor of BBB and getting rid of the fillibuster to pass it. In practice they don’t have 50 for either of those things.

          And this is political theater. The only people who are opposed are the drama queen and the guy in the safe seat? Get rid of them and I expect someone else will take their places.

          When the parties view something as in their best interests they can just get it done, witness gun control at the moment. If it’s not in their best interests (and a national right to life would not be), we have lots of drama and someone in a safe seat gets to be the fall guy.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

            Before 2016 no one took seriously the idea of President Donald Trump.
            As Jaybird wryly noted the other day, no actually expected the long march through the institutions to actually result in Roe being overturned.

            If it means cementing permanent Republican rule – or they think that’s what it means – they will do it.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

              If it means cementing permanent Republican rule – or they think that’s what it means – they will do it.

              True, but why would anyone think that it will be “cementing permanent GOP rule”?

              It would be doing for them what Roe did for the Pro-choice groups. The issue is now resolved, there’s no need to vote on it any more.

              And they’d be doing a cram down on 80% of the country.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

              What’s this “no one” expected Roe to be overturned? I’d expected a pro-life amendment going back to the 1980’s. If Reagan and the Bushes hadn’t had some of their nominees veer toward the center, it would have been gone already. The whole idea of the Federalist Society was to develop and support originalists. This was bound to happen.

              I think the left side of the aisle is right now lurching from a “once we get something it’ll never be taken away” to a “they’re coming for everything” mentality. In actuality, the heart of the nation is undecided on abortion, and the House and Senate couldn’t expect to accomplish anything big on the issue for another decade at least. We’re back to the “hearts and minds” phase, which isn’t a bad place for a democracy.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                NO normies expected Roe to be overturned. Is that a better turn of phrase? Hell, even Jaybird – who I hope never to insult by calling him a normie – didn’t expect the long march to actually work.

                The heart of the nation keeps speaking over and over that it wants abortion permissible until the 15th week, with increasing restriction after. the heart of the nation has said that for over a decade. And yet by the end of next week abortion will be completely or nearly completely illegal in 13 states thanks to trigger laws, and with 13 more ramping up restrictions by the end of July. There are no hearts or minds to be won. The politicians have done what they’ve done.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                Hey, out of curiosity, was was the law that went all the way to the supreme court that got overturned there?

                What restrictions did it have?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                I think this is a bubble thing, both your idea that no one saw this coming and your assessment of the nation’s position on abortion.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                I was thinking about this on the bus ride home, and I realized how messed up it is. You realize that half of the elected officials in the country have been claiming that every single vote “endangers” Roe for at least a generation, right? Was it all rhetoric? I know I can’t expect you to answer for the Democratic machine, but this claim has been on a continuous loop. Do you think they never believed it? and/or that the voters had completely tuned it out?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

                Most normies I know – across the spectrum – had indeed tuned it out. Yes there were still a percentage of single issue voters on Roe on each side, but the vast majority of the Not Very Online and Political in the US figured it was settled.

                I suspect some of them started believing it was in fact in danger when the draft leaked. Others, like Jay, didn’t trust the draft because SCOTUS doesn’t generally leak.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                With the 6th Supreme I saw it coming.

                Now there was a lot of luck in getting that 6th. HRC winning and/or RBG stepping down when she should have would have done it.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I’ve been expecting it since before then, but as we all know I’m not the ordinary bird. I expected it to accelerate after Garland’s dismissal by McConnell.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                To be fair, I didn’t see Trump’s victory coming. Ergo at the time Garland was just McConnell virtue signaling for his base.

                When you’re playing chess and have an obvious mate 6 moves out, some people make you play it out and some don’t.

                Also there might be some advantage to making President HRC either dismiss Garland herself or take him.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

      3 is, apparently, not an option. So now what?

      Managed Conflict.

      Various groups (BLM, NRA, Pro-life/choice) will have protests (and sometimes even riots). It will all be very dramatic.

      Sometimes groups will gain some advantage, but the wheel will continue to turn.Report

    • j r in reply to Jaybird says:

      Thanks, Jaybird!

      To be clear though, when I reference divorce in the essay, I’m not talking about a divorce between political factions. I mean a separation between our political and ideological arguments and the underlying policy problems. They are often tenuously connected as it is. I suspect this will only get worse until we reach some new equilibrium in which they are almost completely separated.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to j r says:

        Okay. That’s making me think.

        I see that playing out with something like the following: “It would have worked if.”

        Like, our plans would have worked if the police weren’t corrupt. Our plans would have worked if white women weren’t selfish. Our plans would have worked if the state constitution was easier to change but harder to change back. Our plans would have worked if it weren’t so easy to recall a bad school board member. Our plans would have worked if we had another two years. Our plans would have worked if we had more funding. Our plans would have worked if

        The policies would always be some variant of “just get the trains running, even if imperfectly” and the ideology would be something for bored people to argue and crab bucket amongst themselves.Report

  4. Pinky says:

    I appreciate the distinction you made between politics and policy. But then in section 4, when you describe Washington as the elite, you seem to be treating them as politics. Aren’t they policy? Isn’t politics the force that gets them into positions of power? The finest lawyers and lobbyists can work on war against Mongolia…for about a day, then their money will run out, because their position wouldn’t attract voters, and money follows possibilities.

    I know that power in Washington includes politics as well as policy, but I just think your section 4 is missing an (maybe the) important part.Report

  5. Chip Daniels says:

    In response to reader request, I choose a different, more blunt and straightforward argument.

    This is a staggeringly stupid essay, written from a POV of unearned smugness at Dunning-Kreuger levels.

    The overall premise here is easily falsifiable by the most cursory glance at a newspaper.

    The first premise, that politics focuses on yesterday’s conflicts is true, but makes it all the more stupid.
    Of course anti-abortion forces were focusing on yesterday’s conflict, that is, the 1973 Roe decision. Of course conservatives are focused on overturning the 1964 Civil Rights Act. This is why their politics is so successful, that they use a crushing defeat as a rallying cry.

    It isn’t possible to have a political focus on anything but past conflicts, as a method of creating a different future.

    The second premise, that politics focuses on second order abstractions, and by this the author uses culture war as an example, also falsifies itself.
    Culture war has been very successful in reshaping the future, the one in which we now inhabit.
    Today’s conservatives weren’t even born in the days of the Warren court, yet their opinions and voting patterns were shaped by political forces who took over school boards and courts.

    The third premise, that “our problems are deceptively simple” is the battle cry of authoritarians everywhere.
    Of course the housing shortage can be solved- just force X to happen, and overrule all the interested stakeholders and veto points. Its That Simple!

    The fourth premise which is a pre-emptive defense of the privilege charge is that politicians themselves are privileged. Well so are the Kardashians, but that is meaningless. To “not care” about politics, when politics literally is people getting imprisoned or killed, is of course a privilege.

    The fifth premise is a promise that “I will write something less stupid in future” to which I say God I hope so.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      I’m not sure that “people who don’t agree with me are stupid” is much of a step up from “I can’t believe that people don’t agree with me”. You’re still communicating a massive failure of imagination and an inability to hold another point of view in your head sympathetically.

      You’re making assertions rather than arguments and, in doing so, you’re communicating your failures, not JR’s.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      I agree that the premise about yesterday’s conflicts needs to be fleshed out. At least I want to see JR’s examples of something different.

      There’s a good argument that labor unions use an obsolete model. And I get that support of labor unions might not be the optimal method of taking care of laborers. But I wouldn’t say that labor unions are an ongoing battle – maybe one of the fighters in the battle, but not a prominent one, and not particularly threatened.

      But what else fits into that category? There are subjects that have been debated in the past, present, and certainly future, and it’s rare for issues to be resolved. Do those count in JR’s category of “yesterday’s conflicts”?Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      When I was in Singapore last December my thirteen-year old Australian nephew asked me if Americans were going to kill each other over “politics.” I did not say anything but it occurred to me at that moment that a lot of people are just really baffled or pretend to be baffled* about how ideology works. They seem not to understand that it produces deep views on how the world should operate in many different factors and that ideological disagreement can shake people down to their very psyches.

      *The pretend to be baffled is the more insidious part. The OP should be very cognizant of ideology and how it shapes what people think law and policy should be. Yet he ignores it as you note because it is inconvenient and might amount to admitting these things are hard fought and strongly held.Report

      • Chris in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        I think the biggest thing people misunderstand is that ideology is not something some people don’t have, instead of recognizing it as the mental, social, cultural, and political soup in which we’re all swimming.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        The “Our problems are easy!” example of housing, of all things, illustrates the absurdity.

        Housing involves a very complex stew of stakeholders and interests, and requires solving different problems on different levels simultaneously.

        The idea that we can remove politics from interactions between humans is absurd because everything is politics; How a team of coworkers decides to approach a project involves politics because all the stakeholders come to the project with their own agendas and ideas and preferences.

        This is why I say it is authoritarianism because it substitutes one person’s preferences and judgement for everyone’s.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          The article doesn’t say you can remove politics from anything, at least as I read it. Additionally, half of your argument against JR’s housing example is identical to JR’s housing example. What he calls the politics of the past seems (to me at least) to be what you’d call stakeholders’ prior agendas. I agree that, so far, he hasn’t addressed the complexity of a good housing policy.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

            The theme running thru his arguments is that politics is ridiculous, irrational and practiced in a self defeating manner.

            Which is all true, but the conclusion based on the premises is a non sequitur.

            It doesn’t follow that based on those premises any rational being can or should even want to “be done with politics”.

            We can see very plainly all around us, empirical evidence of the power and importance of politics in shaping our world.Report

            • Chris in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              I would say you can be “done with politics” only if you move to the middle of the woods and live a life of complete solitude, but of course, you have to hope that politics doesn’t result in the woods being torn down for logging or development, or that a fire doesn’t destroy them because of climate change, so nope, even alone in the middle of the woods, you still can’t be “done with politics,” because politics will never be done with you.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              I hate the habit of putting things in quotes that aren’t quotations.

              It sounds like JR believes that politics aren’t a tenable solution, that divorce or worse is inevitable. But even with that, since this is his first article, we probably shouldn’t speculate on his conclusions yet.Report

    • j r in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      “This is a staggeringly stupid essay, written from a POV of unearned smugness at Dunning-Kreuger levels.”

      I have to thank you, Chip. This is the second time that you made me laugh out loud. And I don’t mean that in the “lol” internet slang way. No, I really laughed.

      I’ll just point out for others reading this, that had I written an essay of boilerplate conservative talking points, something blaming all of our problems on liberals and the left, Chip’s comment would likely be less vitriolic.

      There is something about the structure of our present politics that allows people to deal with their supposed political enemies in stride, but leads to absolute freaking out when anyone questions the underlying game. I think it’s interesting to think about why this is.

      Of course, it is possible that I’m just a person of low ability, expertise and experience who is overestimating my understanding of U.S. politics and public policy. Y’all are adults. I’ll let you decide for yourselves.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to j r says:

        Everyone wants to “question the underlying game”, that’s why we roll our eyes at the phrase.

        The RevComs who regularly march through the streets outside my building, as they have been doing for the past 40 years nonstop, are “questioning the game”.
        The “Defund the Cops” folks are “questioning the game”.

        Neither one of them will ever get within a mile of their goal, because they too are done with politics.

        The white supremacists, the neo-Confederates, the fascists and authoritarians- THEY love politics, and instead of questioning the game, they are winning it.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      This is a staggeringly stupid essay, written from a POV of unearned smugness at Dunning-Kreuger levels.

      Sounds like someone has a bad case of the meta-DKs!

      The third premise, that “our problems are deceptively simple” is the battle cry of authoritarians everywhere.
      Of course the housing shortage can be solved- just force X to happen, and overrule all the interested stakeholders and veto points. Its That Simple!

      The idea that not preventing people from building housing on their own property is authoritarian is a hell of a take. From further downthread:

      This is why I say it is authoritarianism because it substitutes one person’s preferences and judgement for everyone’s.

      The idea that it’s one person versus everyone is, of course, a gross mischaracterization, but the bigger issue here is that by this standard, Roe v Wade is authoritarian. Obergefell is authoritarian. The Bill of Rights is authoritarian. Executive orders are authoritarian. Representative democracy is authoritarian.

      Of course, the definition of words is arbitrary. There’s no reason “authoritarianism” couldn’t mean rainbows and puppy dogs, or any policy you don’t like, or whatever definition best fits the way you actually use the word. But if you’re going to use it to mean any deviation from pure democracy, don’t expect to be able to use it as an “I win” button in arguments.Report

  6. Saul Degraw says:

    Comment in modReport

  7. LeeEsq says:

    Just because you are done caring about politics, doesn’t mean that politics is done caring about you. It doesn’t work that way. You can’t just tell an authoritarian that “I’m politically neutral, don’t care about politics at all, leave me alone. It doesn’t work that way. It never worked that way even if you aren’t in a group deemed to be enemies or a threat to the authoritarian. Politics does matter whether people like it or not.Report

  8. LeeEsq says:

    The two Winston Churchill quotes that seem ever applicable are “the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter” and “democracy is not the best form of government, it is the worse form of government save all others tried.” I guess it has been truism that the average citizen always finds the politics of democracy bewildering because of all the competing interests and ideological conflicts rather than something pleasant and civilized but politics still matter. A world without politics is an impossibility unless you impose a brutal totalitarian system on the entire world. There will always be profound disagreements on how everything should be ordered.Report

  9. Chris says:

    There is a view out there that to not care about politics is a privilege. This is a stupid idea. Full stop.

    This is too harsh. It’s not stupid to say this, because in a certain sense it is true: the people who are the most privileged are the least impacted, or at least the least likely to be impacted, by politics as they’re currently practiced, and in fact as you describe in your reasons for not caring anymore (e.g., “due to a bunch of long-term structural issues, politicians have limited ability to make meaningful improvements to the status quo.”). So when a white dude above a certain age, education level, and income bracket says he doesn’t care about politics anymore, yeah, it looks a lot like privilege.

    Of course, I have known a lot of non-white, non-highly educated, and definitely non-wealthy people over the years have also stopped caring about politics, and in a sense for mirror reasons: politicians have lost the ability to make meaningful improvements to a status quo that’s already fishing them over pretty royally, and even when they do make changes, they pretty much always just add to the fishing, rather than subtracting from it, so why care?

    In fact, the people I’ve known in my life who were least likely to ever talk about politics were almost all in this latter category, not the former, and when they did talk about politics, it was likely to say effectively what I’ve just said about why they don’t care.

    So yeah, your reasons for not caring definitely look a lot like they come from a place of privilege, but it’s ridiculous to say that not caring about politics generally does so.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

      Did you see this thread earlier? It’s an interesting one:

      My take on the whole thing is that “politics” has come to present identically to “performative progressivism, functional defense of the status quo”.

      Like there’s this huge argument about the importance of changing how policing is done BUT DON’T YOU DARE TOUCH POLICE UNIONS! Oh, and getting rid of QI won’t accomplish much. And Asset Forfeiture is an important tool in the Drug War. And so on. But there are loud noises made, signs planted, slogans asserted. IN THIS HOUSE WE BELIEVE THAT HOUSING STARTS NEED TO BE LIMITED.

      Now *MY* take on the thread is that it’s unnecessarily specific in the whole “White Women” thing (because, lemme tell ya, I recognize that behavior and I see is as often, if not more often, spouting from White Dudes) but it points to an actual phenomenon that needs criticism.

      Accusations of “privilege” against people for not being down with politics by people who are, good god, swimming in freaking privilege is… well, it’s 2015 all over again. Sweet on the tongue… but 2016 is right around the corner.Report

      • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

        I think she epitomizes exactly what she’s complaining about.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

          Then we agree that the phenomenon exists.

          I hope we can, at some point, wander through “so now what?”Report

          • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

            Pick a specific policy outcome. Identify the decision maker(s). Use the tools available to advocate to the decision maker, or replace the decision maker with someone more sympathetic. Anyone who can’t get over the various pieties and tilting at abstractions isn’t helping.

            The first is by far the most important.Report

            • Michael Cain in reply to InMD says:

              The Gang of Four that flipped Colorado’s legislature blue, and had a lot to do with Colorado becoming a pretty solidly blue state, took the opposite approach: elect Democrats first, negotiate policy with them second. Granted, this was an unusual group.Report

      • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

        Liberals in generally have lost any sense of what it means to engage in politics besides donating and voting (and posting). There’s no real organizing, only NGOs that are designed to do specific things (granted, often important things) and raise money. There are Democratic Party groups that develop potential candidates and endorse them when they run, but struggle to turn out half a dozen volunteers to canvas for those candidates. And then there are the politicians and candidates themselves, whose primary job is often to ingratiate themselves with the NGOs and the Democratic Party groups.

        You could see this easily here in May, when the decision leaked: there were two rallies simultaneously, one organized by NGOs, attended by local politicians, and with maybe 150 people. Their main message was “vote!” Then there was one of on by a front group of the RCP, which was much larger (several hundred), much louder, and focused on organizing. The NGOs tried their best to avoid associating with the loud people, but if they want to organize in the short and medium-terms, they’re gonna need those loud people.

        Oh, and cop unions are pretty much universally hated by critics of the police now.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

          Read the thread. There’s a fun moment where you see part of the aftermath of a handful of (presumably white) activists suggest that women start taking a knee at football games in support of Abortion Rights and a handful of BIPOC activists saying something to the effect of “let’s *NOT* do that” and…

          Well, *I* thought it was funny.

          Anyway.

          Donating and voting and posting is something that, seriously, makes you feel like you’re doing something.

          Like, have you ever sat at a table at an event and tried to talk to people who came up to glance at the brochures at the table? OH MY GOSH IT’S HORRIBLE. It’s only *SLIGHTLY* better than witnessing to strangers at the beach. You talk to people and they take a brochure and, at the end of the day, you’ve been in seven discussions, one argument, and been called names by three dudes.

          And you still have 80% of your brochures.

          And you feel like you’ve done nothing. NOTHING.

          Say what you will about donating $20. You’re out $20!

          (And it’s one thing to hate cop unions. It’s another thing to argue that they need to be neutered or eliminated. It’s uncanny.)Report

        • Greg In Ak in reply to Chris says:

          It seems like the lack of general organizing ability in the liberal sphere is a result of the overall disintegration of community groups and large affiliation groups in the US as a whole. Any large group splinters a bit in modern america which has led to people being lonely, unattached to their community or in single issue groups. The D party itself used to be enough of large/national and small/local community that it served many purposes and could bring people together.Report

          • LeeEsq in reply to Greg In Ak says:

            The right was able to be better organized than liberals because the right had the Evangelical Churches and more conservative Catholic Churches as a focal point. Liberals didn’t really have anything similar and lived more atomic lives. The decline of mainline Protestant Churches really made middle class liberal organization tougher. Same with the decline of labor unions.Report

            • Greg In Ak in reply to LeeEsq says:

              Quibble: Libs had mainline churches and unions. We had good stuff but the mainline churches crumbled in white communities but are still strong in minority areas. R’s went after unions for a reason.

              R’s have more church but suffer from the same alienation from older mainstream institutions. There are a billion , approximately, stories of Trumpers who arent’ tied to the old churches and don’t go much themselves.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

        White Women are the new Rednecks, in that it’s an ethnic group liberals have decided it’s okay to have racist feelings about.Report

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chris says:

      Perhaps the better statement is that privilege allows one to either not care, or care very broadly about politics.Report

      • j r in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

        I think this gets the causality backwards. A person with economic, social or cultural power can leverage those things to gain political power. And a person with political power can leverage that to get money, status and fame. But there is almost no way that a marginalized person can directly get hold of political power. They can vote. They can join organizations. But that’s not direct political power.

        If a person from a marginalized group, or even just the median American, wants to get hold of meaningful political power, they first have to get hold of economic, social or cultural power. Caring about politics has almost no efficacy.

        There are exceptions, but even those exceptions are illustrative. AOC came out of nowhere to get elected to congress. But that required a unique combination of circumstances and her being much smarter, well-spoken and photogenic than the average person.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to j r says:

          I was taking your meaning to be whether or not a person was paying attention to politics, not engaging with politics.

          If it’s just paying attention, then privilege let’s you not pay attention, or have enough mental bandwidth to pay a great deal of attention. Lacking privilege may very well mean you can only pay attention to a narrow slice of politics, the stuff that impacts you the most.

          If it’s engaging, then yeah, you have to have privilege to really engage with politics directly. A lack of privilege might allow you to join a protest, or rant on social media, but you won’t be running for office, or really grabbing the attention of a politician or upper level bureaucrat without some privilege to capitalize on.

          The sin of culture war is it convinces those without privilege to commit the limited bandwidth they have to politics that doesn’t really impact them in a meaningful way.Report

          • j r in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            “The sin of culture war is it convinces those without privilege to commit the limited bandwidth they have to politics that doesn’t really impact them in a meaningful way.”

            This is a better-stated encapsulation of what I was trying to say in the fourth part of the piece.

            The only thing that I’ll add is that I do not believe this axiomatically. It’s a specific claim about the performative elements of the current culture war.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            For that last line to be true, you’d have to assume that economic issues (or whatever) impact people more than social ones. Is that true though? If you had the choice, would you exchange your principles for greater wealth?Report

            • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

              No. Not in a million years. Especially not if it meant stepping on other Americans.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

                If no, then you value culture issues more than economic, which means you disagree with Oscar’s position. And I think nearly everyone would reply “no”.Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

              Does abortion impact you directly? No, it doesn’t. It might offend you, but it doesn’t impact you, so you only care because it offends you.

              Does gay marriage impact anyone else directly? No, but it sure offends people an awful lot.

              Does the fact that a trans person gets to use the bathroom they identify with impact anyone directly? Not in the least, but folks sure have imagined all sorts of extreme edge cases to rally against it.

              Etc, ad nauseum.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Social issues can affect a person directly, but I understand the point you’re making. I just find it way off-base. I mean, tax rates or Ukrainian freedom don’t affect me that much either. And I care more about the moral environment that I leave to the next generation than anything much that happens to me. I think most people do.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                I care more about the moral environment that I leave to the next generation than anything much that happens to me. I think most people do.

                I’m stealing this, for whenever conservatives start whining about how they can’t tell offensive jokes any more.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I think anyone this side of Thomas Friedman would agree with that quote. I daresay that even libertarians want to perpetuate their moral vision for the country more than they want to enjoy any particular benefit.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                Our moral vision is usually along the lines of, “If it doesn’t affect you personally, or it simply offends you, don’t be getting the government involved.”

                I mean, if you don’t want women to have abortions, convince them not to. Convince them that it’s OK to have that baby, that the state will make damn sure the father is at the very least paying his part, and if the father can’t/won’t, then the state will help out (instead of constantly grousing about all those unwed mothers out there having babies all over the place).

                Or convince them that there is no shame in giving the child up for adoption, and people will congratulate you for doing the right thing, rather than constantly ask, “How could you do that?! I could never give up my baby!”.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                Do you see a clear dividing line between culture wars and all of us arguing in order to promote our different visions of America?Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Pinky says:

                Yes.

                Arguing for a vision of society is just that, arguing, trying to convince others of how right you are by getting them to willingly join your vision.

                Culture war is forcing your vision down peoples throat at the point of a gun.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                So here’s how I see it. Micro-level, you’re engaged in a discussion about the best possible culture, so that seems culture-warlike to me. Expanding beyond that, you’re not interested in coercion, and you see that as less culture-warlike. Expanding beyond that, you’re living out your principle of non-coercion as you attempt to persuade others, so that seems more culture-warlike.

                I respect having principles and sticking by them – please don’t take my comment as anything against that. But it doesn’t seem fair that you’re defining culture war as the part of the culture war you don’t like. I think it’s a natural tendency – I bet that the author of the Wordsworth piece pictures herself as opposed to the culture warriors, too. But there is so little in law or policy that isn’t about how we picture our best possible society.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                If memory serves, the “typical” abortion is done by a woman who isn’t a teen and already has children. The reason for it is having a kid would take resources they don’t have away from their other children and/or interfere with their work/studies.

                “Convince them” runs into the problem that they’re probably doing a rational evaluation of their life and/or life plans.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                I wonder how the IDW/Quillette/Joe Rogan crowd would react to that quote.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I don’t know. There really isn’t an organized IDW, and their whole thing is welcoming open debate. I don’t read Quillette. I could imagine some Rogan fans to be more into experience than building a good society, so you may be onto something with them.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                What do you think the difference is between “Woke cancel culture” and “caring about the moral environment”?

                This gets to my point that there isn’t a battle between moral censoriousness and free thought.

                The battle is between two moral codes, two sets of norms of behavior.

                And I’d go further and say that censoriousness becomes the tool used by the side that doesn’t have popular support.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I have no opinion beyond noting that there are about 8 broad sets of norms, and +300 million specific sets of norms.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Two?

                Team Blue itself has dozens, with each group/cause trying to insist that addressing it’s concerns should come first and anything else is immoral.

                And there are trade offs.

                You can treat everyone as an individual or you can have group rights. Being fair to the Asians trying to get into college would involve dismantling affirmative action.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                What do you think the difference is between “Woke cancel culture” and “caring about the moral environment”?

                Some of us are old enough to remember the televangelist era.

                Anyway, I’d say that the difference between “Woke cancel culture” and “caring about the moral environment” was summed up fairly well by Liat Kaplan in her NYT OP-ED last year.

                While I understand that there is some utility in looking at the Jimmy Swaggarts and Jimmy Bakkers and saying “Well, *ALL* Christians are like that”, it’s not exactly true. There *IS* a difference between mainstream and mainline evangelicalism and whatever the hell it is that Kenneth Copeland is doing.

                So, too, there is a difference between Social Justice and vengeful public shaming masquerading as social criticism.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                I agree.

                And the public battle now is over those differences.

                Like one side wants a teacher to be allowed to pray in school, but forbid him from mentioning his husband.

                The other side wants the opposite.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                This gets to my point that there isn’t a battle between moral censoriousness and free thought.

                Oh, you!Report

        • Philip H in reply to j r says:

          But there is almost no way that a marginalized person can directly get hold of political power. They can vote. They can join organizations. But that’s not direct political power.

          I think you understand the term direct political power very differently then most Americans in that they still believe that voting is direct political power. They may be wrong about that belief, but its held fast on both sides of the aisle.

          If a person from a marginalized group, or even just the median American, wants to get hold of meaningful political power, they first have to get hold of economic, social or cultural power. Caring about politics has almost no efficacy.

          If one doesn’t care about politics, then one isn’t going to take the effort to do the things you outline to seek that power.Report

        • Brandon Berg in reply to j r says:

          There are exceptions, but even those exceptions are illustrative. AOC came out of nowhere to get elected to congress.

          A safe district electing a crazy ideologue with little to no prior political experience isn’t all that unusual. 2018 was the first year since at least 1990 in which a majority of newly elected Representatives had not previously held any elected office, but during that time period about a third of Representatives have started their political careers in the House.

          https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2018/12/28/congress-in-2019-the-2nd-most-educated-and-least-politically-experienced-house-freshman-class/Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Chris says:

      So when a white dude above a certain age, education level, and income bracket says he doesn’t care about politics anymore, yeah, it looks a lot like privilege.

      Do you mean a politically white dude?Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Brandon Berg says:

        I was wondering if that would be brought up.

        I mean, there are a lot of reasons that it’s unseemly to bring it up.
        There are a lot of reasons that it’s unseemly to not bring it up.
        There are some *SERIOUSLY* unseemly things about the various assumptions swirling about prior to it being brought up, though.Report

        • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

          Put it this way: it’s not that a person has to have all of those features; they just have to have a combination of them. As you can well see from your thread about white women (where, of course, we mean middle/upper middle class white women).

          I’ll add that I definitely make assumptions about the OP, but we also follow each other on Twitter (which is part of where my assumptions come from).Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

            Oh, it wasn’t *MY* thread about white women. It was my comment about how her thread about white women was miscalibrated and should have been a thread about how “politics” has come to present identically to “performative progressivism, functional defense of the status quo”.

            Because, as I pointed out, I’m more likely to see these behaviors coming from dudes.

            One of the assumptions that I make about the OP is that he comes from a somewhat different culture than my own and so when he has an insight to offer that differs wildly from my experience of the world that my starting point should be that he is seeing something that I don’t/can’t, rather than that he’s mistaken (or worse).

            It doesn’t mean that he’s necessarily *RIGHT*. I mean, I won’t necessarily change my mind.

            But I certainly don’t think that it’s appropriate to start from “smug, Dunning-Kruger”. I mean, not coming from someone with *MY* background, anyway.Report

            • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

              I don’t agree with Chip’s take on the essay. I’ve spent much of my adult life tuned out from politics in any meaningful sense (only reengaging a few years ago, because suddenly I had people I hadn’t talked to in more than a decade getting in touch with me about how reinvigorated they felt by a sudden influx of people, interest, and energy in left groups). I mean, I talked politics online, but that’s just entertainment. I didin’t do anything.

              And to be fair, when I reengaged, I only half paid attention to electoral politics (and was critical of electoral focus in left groups; more than once I have been one of a handful of people voting against putting energy into electoral politics in a group of more than a thousand), for reasons at least parallel to the OP’s, if not identical.

              So I don’t think it’s smug or “Dunning-Kruger” (whatever that means in this context). I think privilege plays a part (it certainly did with me, even though I was poor for much of the time I was disengaged) .

              I do agree with Chip that you can never simply be done with politics, because politics will never be done with you, as a lot of people have learned the hard way in the last week.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                While I agree with “you can never simply be done with politics”, I very much think that “why in the hell should I waste an hour of my life voting for your freakin’ candidate instead of using that time doing something, anything!, else?” is a question worth answering rather than mocking.

                And the whole “let’s shame the guy to get him back in line” bullshit is becoming more transparent, don’t you think?

                Do you think that there are going to be eventual downsides from the overuse of that particular social antibiotic?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Jaybird says:

                I mean something like “What if we got rid of Democratic Leadership?” might be a good counter.

                “Okay. Pelosi has been in charge of a handful of victories but also a handful of crushing defeats. Schumer too. They should both retire. We’ll replace them with… okay. Maybe I won’t start with who we replace them with. But would firing them be a good thing, in your eyes?”

                I mean, at least it’s an acknowledgment that, maybe, there are reasons to not waste an hour of one’s life voting for somebody else’s freakin’ candidate and and offering something that might make it seem like less a waste of time.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’ve been saying on here for years I think every Democratic majority leader since, and including, Harry Reid was a mistake. So have others. Its not a stretch for the left actually. I also live in a state with two Republican senators, so I have a somewhat limited ability to influence the outcome.

                As to Pelosi – she’s done her jo getting a lot of legislation I support through multiple Congresses, including wrangling the Progressives to support moderate policy approach I don’t always agree with. I do think she needs to have some bench depth behind her, and while Steny Hoyer and James Clyburn are effective legislators in their own rights, they aren’t inspiring or ruthless like she is (Which is probably why she choose them). Hakeem Jefferies has promise, but he needs seasoning.

                I will however be clear – the notion that voting for this or that candidate is a waste of time is something that a LOT of powerful politicians who want to avoid accountability want you to believe. As someone who has voted in every election he was eligible to vote in since he turned 8, I can’t think of anything that more important then that hour. Especially if you lie in a state where you can spend that hour at your kitchen table voting by mail.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                Hey, I agree that powerful politicians who want to avoid accountability want you to believe that voting doesn’t matter.

                But if someone out there from one of the neglected sub-cultures asks me “why in the hell should I waste an hour on this bullshit?”, I’d think that I’d need more than “that’s what they want you to think!”

                At the very least, I’d start with “I totally understand why you feel underserved. Dude. I get it. You have been.”

                And, only from there, would I jump to “Everything bad is the fault of the Republicans who you didn’t vote for but couldn’t be stopped by the Democrats who weren’t voted for *ENOUGH*. This is why we need you to keep voting for the party currently in power!”

                Rather than, you know, “quit being smug and get back in line”.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                You don’t think very much of me or Chip or anyone else left of center do you? In that you assume we have no empathy and wouldn’t start there. And you assume that I wouldn’t lay the democrats under the bus I was driving to run over the Republicans – despite many times doing so right here.

                Because here’s the super secret lefty ager decoder ring – politicians of both parties underserve most of America. Got that? I just happen to see a lot of evidence that Democrats do it less then Republicans, and because Democrats are, for the moment, not inclined to can off actual democracy in favor of authoritarianism.

                Do you know how that empathy gets repaid by most conservatives, including a lot of folks here? The nicest thing I have been told is I am not a legitimate American.

                I have lots of empathy. I am loosing patience.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                Please understand: My opinion on Chip, in this thread, is based on his comments. My opinions of the people who share his opinions are based on the extent to which they said something to the effect of “no” to his more excessive assertions.

                My assumption is that you guys are engaging in performative progressivism rather than actually trying to change any given policy.

                I mean, sure, that’s not a high opinion, now that I see it written down.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                “why in the hell should I waste an hour of my life voting for your freakin’ candidate instead of using that time doing something, anything!, else?”

                You characterize voting as some sort of charity or noblesse oblige.
                Something in which you have no stake or interest in the outcome.

                As if we citizens should be grateful for your participation.

                And you wonder why we call it privilege?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Yeah, I think that you should avoid using that argument.

                I think that it will fail.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                I wouldn’t want to shame him. What I would suggest is that instead of focusing on policy alone (which is both inherently ideological and inherently political, in the real world), he join a political organization that operates outside of the two party system. I even have some suggestions.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                You seem to have few that agree with you on the whole shaming thing.

                Hey, if we agree that focusing on policy is political, the fact that he says that he’s done with “politics” but he’s focusing on policy instead, the problem is that we’re using the word differently and not that he should get back into politics.

                Maybe we should focus on how he’s using the word.

                Hell, maybe, if we adopt his definition, we should get out of politics too!Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’m probably even rarer on this site in that, instead of focusing on policy specifically, I think we should focus on ideology, and principles, and then when we can, building or supporting policies that follow from those. This, however, will get you to a point at which you may care about politics, but you have no interest in voting for Dems or Republicans, and you just use your mental and, when possible, physical energy elsewhere.

                Which, if we want to call that being outside of politics, I’m all for it. The primary, and often the only reason I’ve ever cared about electoral politics beyond the city government level just was just made irrelevant by the Supreme Court on Friday, so if we’re not calling this other stuff politics, then politics can go fish itself.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                There’s a lot of stuff that is important in the foundation.

                If the foundation is sand, any house built on it may look good but, when the rains start to fall…

                But I know you know this.

                It seems tougher to talk about ideology and principles these days. Fewer books in the required reading section. And people seem to have never learned how to talk to people who don’t share their own ideology and principles.

                That’s one hell of an oversight.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                I have some good recent books to recommend.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

              Yeah, Jaybird, stop hijacking Chris’s discussion about the white author’s white male privilege to talk about white women. It’s embarrassing.Report

  10. Marchmaine says:

    I like where your head’s at.

    Building on the idea of historical conflicts… Mass-Post-Industrial Democracy is different from even Industrial Democracy. The Game itself is broken.

    Politics as Identity/Lifestyle Brands is very bad for everyone involved. If I had one wave of a magic wand, I’d end fist-past the post plurality elections… let the Brands dissipate into a thousand factions. The forces released will be tremendous, but better to release them than keep building the explosive pressure. Can’t promise better, only different. I’ll take my chances with different.Report

  11. James K says:

    While I take your point, I also find the criticisms of your position persuasive as well (Chip’s in particular). I’d like to propose a synthesis position.

    The efficacy and meaningfulness of politics in the US right now depends heavily on what you’re trying to do, particularly which branches of government you need to achieve your aims. If what you want can be done with the President or the Supreme Court then politics is very much live. As Chip points out that because the Republicans were able to win the 2016 election, they got to swing the Supreme Court in their favour and have made significant political gains as a result.

    However, I suspect a lot of what interests (or perhaps interested) you in politics are the sorts of high-level regulatory and economic reform that neither an Executive Order nor a Supreme Court decision can implement. No, you need legislation and if you’re looking to get the legislature to do anything for you, I can completely understand why you would conclude that politics has become utterly non-functional.

    In my opinion, the largest flaw in US politics is Congress – its structure renders it divided and inert, this leads the other branches to accrue more power (the Presidency especially). And I don’t see this ending soon, indeed if the recent set of Supreme Court cases we could see a crisis of legitimacy where the Supreme Court loses power, which would leave the Presidency as the only functioning branch of government. This would leave the US one short step from dictatorship.Report

    • Philip H in reply to James K says:

      In my opinion, the largest flaw in US politics is Congress – its structure renders it divided and inert, this leads the other branches to accrue more power (the Presidency especially).

      Bingo. It also leads to little political accountability for Congress, as it becomes the default to blame the Executive, and to a lessor extent the judiciary, for Legislative failures. Immigration is an excellent example of this.

      indeed if the recent set of Supreme Court cases we could see a crisis of legitimacy where the Supreme Court loses power, which would leave the Presidency as the only functioning branch of government. This would leave the US one short step from dictatorship.

      I think this is, in fact, the end game of certain politicians in the US. Because it keeps their power intact and further insulates them from accountability.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to James K says:

      I object to the “structural” analysis because it doesn’t explain how in past eras, different Congresses operating under the very same structure managed to be aggressive and propel powerful change.

      As I mentioned elsewhere, I lean on the “free choice” explanation. Like, in our current moment, the Attorney General can easily bring criminal charges against the Jan 6 coup plotters. All the structure the system are in place, no new laws or rulings need to be brought.

      Will he?

      The American voters can reject the political party and the leading figures of the attempted overthrow of our elections. They have all the information they need, and the people are sovereign and accountable to no one but themselves.

      Will they?Report

      • Chris in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        How many times has the U.S. enacted “powerful change” legislatively? Or judicially, for that matter? If we exclude, let’s say a just under 40 year period from the election of FDR through the higher ed amendments of ’72, what are we looking at? A handful, at most, of non-conservative legislative and judicial victories, and a whole lot of losses? Yeah, it’s the system.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        different Congresses operating under the very same structure managed to be aggressive and propel powerful change.

        After we created the regulatory state, it took multiple decades for groups to figure out just how important/profitable lobbying was. Remember Bill Gates hiding from Al Gore’s shakedown?

        Now everyone knows. Further the gov has already intruded into the spots of the economy where it’d be healthy for it to do so and is seriously into the spots where it’s not.

        Further there’s the issue of how to pay for everything. Massively increasing taxes is a problem. Cutting existing spending (i.e. entitlements) is a problem. The gov’s current commitments crowd out new commitments.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

          From inside the beltway – we’d love to have the discussion. But you are partially correct that we can neither cut our way to fiscal balance, nor tax our way to fiscal balance. Roughly 1/3rd of what the government spends – in total – is not covered by what the government takes in – again in total. That ratio can certainly be adjusted somewhat – the earnings cap on social security taxation is one of my favorite examples.

          But if you want to cut 1/3rd of government spending you either have to do entitlements, or you have to shut down the executive branch. Or you have to raise taxes while making somewhat less draconian cuts.

          What you can’t do – because we have almost 5 decades of evidence it doesn’t work – is keep cutting taxes, claiming they will pay for themselves in economic growth and not cutting programs at the same time. Both parties are now guilty of this, but I see neither wants to take it on.

          Of course if SCOTUS rules tomorrow that Congress can’t delegate regulatory authority via legislation one could argue most of the Executive Branch is excess spending (as Republicans have argued while they cut taxes since Reagan). but as long as you want to keep the FBI and CIA and similar agencies, you will still be in the hole.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

            but as long as you want to keep the FBI and CIA and similar agencies, you will still be in the hole.

            CIA’s budget was $86B in 2020.
            FBI’s was $10B
            Medicare was $829.5 billion in 2020. That’s not even the only HC entitlement much less the only (or biggest) entitlement.

            That ratio can certainly be adjusted somewhat – the earnings cap on social security taxation is one of my favorite examples.

            Way more ugly than you’d think at first glance. Other “progressive” taxes have already filled in that void. I don’t have time to do the math but I’ve looked into this before and decided it was far more than enough to drive behavior.Report

    • j r in reply to James K says:

      “The efficacy and meaningfulness of politics in the US right now depends heavily on what you’re trying to do…”

      This is a very good point and worth an addendum to my piece. How effective you can be within the political process is right now is going to be a function of what you’re trying to do. For instance, if you’re trying to add new housing units to an existing neighborhood suburban neighborhood, you’re going to have a very difficult time. If you’re a current homeowner in that neighborhood and you’re trying to block new construction, then the political process is going to be very responsive to you.

      In general, the more you’re trying to build new things, reform existing structures, or expand individual choices and freedoms, the harder it’s going to be. And the more you’re trying to block new things, enforce the status quo, or increase the power of the bureaucratic state, the easier it’s going to be.

      So, part of the reason why I have become personally less interested in politics is that I am more interested in the former set of things than in the latter.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to James K says:

      There is politics as it caters to policy and there is also politics as it relates to interpersonal relations and dynamics. The second is found in almost every single human interaction. I personally find it pretty draining emotionally to have to mediate the second when it comes to workplace disputes over job responsibility and other issues but it is inescapableReport

  12. Chip Daniels says:

    If nothing else, this essay and ensuing comments demonstrate that no one is more eagerly engaged in politics than those who most vehemently insist they have no interest in it.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      If nothing else, this essay and ensuing comments demonstrate that no one is more eagerly engaged in (one definition of a word) than those who most vehemently insist they have no interest in (other definition of the same word).Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

        Well now it’s just “Defund The Police”.

        It doesn’t actually mean what it sounds like it means, it means this other thing that we can’t quite explain.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          I’d say that JR did a decent enough job explaining himself in the original essay.

          If you are enraged by a particular sentence of his that uses a particular word, I’d ask him to quickly define it.

          Maybe he’s using it differently than you’re used to, in your part of town.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

            I don’t think anyone is confused about his essay or what it means, or even the definition of words he uses.

            I think you both are eagerly politicking and trying to persuade others to follow and adopt your own policy preferences.

            Not that there’s anything wrong with that!Report

  13. Saul Degraw says:

    Two employees of a health care service in North Carolina allege they were fired for not participating in a Daily Christian Prayer: https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article262970498.htmlReport

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      The Constitution, in its majesty, allows them to open a Substack where they can talk about their cancellation.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Hrm. You’re right. We should have a sidebar post for people to just post links to. As they roll off the sidebar, we should create a new one.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

        Terrible idea.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

        because you don’t think this is relevant to the discussion at hand? Why not just say that?Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

          Because Saul believes that this link is important and wants people to read it and discuss it.

          He should be able to but JR also should have a comment section dedicated to his essay rather than whatever article catches Saul’s fancy.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

            Again – Saul clearly posted it here because he believed it was pertinent here. Perhaps you’d have a more productive response approaching it that way.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

              Oh, I see it differently. See above? Where Saul posted “Comment in Mod”? His comment in mod was a link to the House Jan 6 testimony.

              His link here doesn’t come with a “you know what? you might not care about politics but politics cares about you” and a link to the story, it’s just a link to something.

              Given that, in the past, he has used essays about other topics to post links without clarification for how they apply to the OP’s essay, I figured that this was that all over again.

              And, you know what? We *COULD* use a thread dedicated to stuff like “Hey, I think we should talk about *THIS*!”

              And then people can post their link that they want to talk about even if they don’t have posting privileges.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                Point of order – having posting privilege’s doesn’t speed up the process, unless I missed something in my onboarding.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                If you stumble across a link that you think belongs in the sidebar (“Hey, here’s an interesting link!”), you have two options:

                Create a sidebar post and have it posted
                Pick an essay at random from the front page and just copy and paste your link into it without using html tags or anything. Hell, don’t even mention how it’s relevant!

                I think we should have a third way:
                A post dedicated to people just commenting links that they think others should see but don’t have a front page post that talks about something tangentially related to them.

                An open thread, if you will.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                Having never done a Sidebar post before I wasn’t aware. Learn something new each dayReport

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                You can’t just check off “sidebar”.

                You have to check off “ten second news” too.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

              I think it has the potential to devolve into chaos, personally. But let’s be honest: Saul, Chip, and Jaybird often post links that are more relevant to the meta-conversation than to any particular thread.Report

          • j r in reply to Jaybird says:

            I am more than OK with random links. Most of the on-topic comments aren’t particularly on-topic anyway. Meaning that I made a few very specific claims that have mostly gone ignored in favor of meta-level arguments. And that’s fine, as well. I’m not really here trying to convince anyone. I’m just putting an argument out there in the world. People can decide for themselves how serious or not serious to take it.

            One of the reasons I have less interest in politics these days is because the whole culture of “debate me!” is silly. You believe what you want to believe and I’ll believe what I want to believe and we’ll see which of us gets better outcomes.Report