In Defense of a Useful History

Eric Medlin

History instructor. Writer. Rising star in the world of affordable housing.

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30 Responses

  1. Greg In Ak says:

    Don’t know katz and i agree with your point. But if katz has never heard of Mussolini or Czar Nicky then he has some cranial rectal compaction. (i could think of other examples but i don’t feel like it and they will do) No those dudes didn’t claim they could obliterate the world. But that is what having nukes will do and they would have loved to have nukes if they had been invented. Both those schmucks threw their largely incompetent though often brave militaries at smaller weaker countries assuming they would win and got a destroyed army/navy, their regimes ended and a dirt nap for their troubles. (To be fair both of those guys earned their deaths)

    Maybe he doesn’t understand how history is useful because he is ignorant of history.Report

  2. InMD says:

    I would say the primary problem with respect to the Discourse in the United States is that most people, and in particular, the media and journalist world, do not know anything about history they didn’t learn from Saving Private Ryan. I would expect that there are lots of retired suburban dads that have read more actual history than the average correspondent or pundit. And that includes on relatively recent and quite relevant history like what went on in the Balkans in the 90s.

    I know the OP links to some writers looking to the Prague Spring (which would not be my go to but at least it’s something) but the reality is most commentator’s understanding of world history spans roughly 1933-1945, as recounted by Hollywood, including via space alien allegories.

    While I agree with the conclusion of the OP it still includes a really inaccurate assertion, namely:

    The country has been an essential part of eastern European military and political history for centuries.

    Maybe the OP means ‘country’ as in the territory in question but this isn’t remotely true about the modern political entity. Which I clarify, before a bunch of people come squealing at me, is certainly not remotely dispositive of that political entity’s claims or the rightness of its cause. These details matter if we want to look to the past for guidance.Report

  3. John Puccio says:

    I read Mr. Katz’s piece and Mr. Medlin’s response, and I suspect that their disagreement is largely one of emphasis. They seem to agree on the primary point that historical context is important but not an accurate predictor of outcomes.

    And a hard disagree on Putin’s invasion of Ukraine being somehow unprecedented. If you want to compare and contrast situational elements, you can argue that everything that happens is technically unprecedented.Report

  4. I wrote about this overall concept here: https://ordinary-times.com/2020/11/17/on-history-and-being-doomed-to-repeat-it/

    But I think we need to be very cautious in minimizing Russia’s military capability. There seems to be a big push to make the Russian Army look weak, stupid, easily defeated, and I must question the motives of why this might be. To con people into thinking a war against Russia would be easily won or desirable? Is that our endgame here? If so, that doesn’t seem like a very wise move to make on the part of our chattering class.Report

    • Ken S in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      Can you cite a single example — anywhere from the mangiest of the mainstream press to wackiest of whacked-out websites — of anyone advocating that the US go to war with Russia? I can’t.Report

      • North in reply to Ken S says:

        Advocacy for US or NATO enforced no fly zones in Ukraine?Report

        • InMD in reply to North says:

          Biden’s gaffe about Putin needing to go is itself the kind of provocative comment that is very unhelpful.Report

          • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

            Along with telling US troops what they’d see when they get to Ukraine, and saying that if Russia uses chemical weapons the US would respond in kind.Report

          • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

            Biden’s gaffe about Putin needing to go is itself the kind of provocative comment that is very unhelpful.

            I think there’s a fairly low ceiling on the amount of damage a Kinsley Gaffe can do in a situation like this, but it’s still pretty hair-raising to have an Administration that does not have its shit together this badly in this situation.

            And it would have been a pretty good issue for literally any imaginable GOP opponent except the one Biden faced to hammer him on.

            (FP was too low salience in the Dem primaries, alas.)Report

          • North in reply to InMD says:

            Yeah I swore floridly when I heard about it. Fortunately the Administration walked it back which made it just a gaffe but God(ess) damn it Joe, you’ve been doing well on this subject so far; don’t sleepwalk us into a war.Report

            • InMD in reply to North says:

              It was pretty bad. Other than that though I think the administration has performed about as well as could have been hoped. My only wish is that they would be more straightforward about conditions for ending the sanctions to incentivize a settlement. I give them a solid B.Report

        • Philip H in reply to North says:

          Most of the advocacy for this seems to be in niche defense and foreign policy publications. there is not yet a groundswell in the MSM.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

          For all the saber-rattling done for this, Biden has clearly made it clear that it is a very stupid idea. I saw polling over the weekend that dinged Biden’s response on Ukraine but if you dug in the cross-tabs, it was for not being aggressive enough (though people do like that he has not started WWIII)Report

    • InMD in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      I would say that Russia has shown itself as being less conventionally capable than anticipated and the Ukranians have shown themselves far more willing to fight than anyone imagined. But to your point this actually makes the situation much more dangerous. It could increase the temptation of Russia to use nuclear weapons if things took a dramatically negative turn for them on the battlefield.

      So the goal needs to be to help broker a settlement. To the extent our actions help get there they are good. To the extent they prolong the violence and the chances of some sort of escalation they are not.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      There seems to be a big push to make the Russian Army look weak, stupid, easily defeated, and I must question the motives of why this might be.

      I think this is one area where people are mostly saying it because then believe it.

      That doesn’t make it even a tiny bit less of a legitimate concern.

      A leading reason that the Russian Army currently looks weak, stupid, and easily defeated is that Putin believed that Ukraine’s army was weak, stupid, and easily defeated.Report

    • cam in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      I think the motivation for those not simply reacting to unexpected evidence that Russia’s military is not what it has been portrayed to be is not to con us, but to use information warfare against them, or more specifically against Putin.

      There is one thing that is fairly consistent in Russian history and that is that leaders who look weak, especially after a military campaign gone badly, tend to not remain in power for long. Even if Putin has managed to consolidate enough power to survive this, the loss of respect on the world stage hits him and by association all Russians. “The world opposes us” is something you can use to rally the people behind you (which is big part of why NATO and the US are avoiding any involvement beyond sanctions and aid) but “The world is laughing at us” is not sustainable.Report

    • Brent F in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      I don’t think we need to over think this, the push to see the Russians as not “12 feet tall” is to show that despite Russia’s size, Ukraine has a puncher’s chance of winning. This makes the Ukrainians look like an excellent value for resources spent investment for Western security rather than a lost cause.Report

      • Ken S in reply to Brent F says:

        The real point of my reply to Kristin was to push back against the assumption, applied reflexively on both the right and the left to any report by every news outlet, that all reporting is dominated by an agenda. In the case of Ukraine, it appears to me that by and large reporters are reporting what they see.Report

        • Mike Schilling in reply to Ken S says:

          To the extent that there’s an agenda, I think it’s that Americans sympathize with a democracy invaded by a dictatorship and a medium-sized country invaded by a huge one, so Russia’s failures are viscerally satisfying to read about. Putin being a well-known murderer helps too.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      That was a good essay.

      One thing I remember reading a long time ago was how China was looking at us being in Iraq for a couple of decades and us being in Afghanistan for a couple of decades as being a real threat.

      Not because of a quagmire or anything like that but the best way to train for war is to be in a war. It’s the best way to make sure that the trucks get their tires changed. It’s the best way to make sure that the guns are oiled. It’s the best way to make sure that everybody goes to the refresher training.

      They saw Iraq and Afghanistan as proof that, if it came to that, the US would have an army that wasn’t running around like the keystone cops and had equipment that worked (more or less).

      Compare to tires that popped within hours of the truck being driven for the first time in a decade.

      Now, I don’t notice these things to say “we totes need to go to war against Russia!” but to say “I didn’t expect the corruption and rot in the Russian army to go quite *THIS* deep and be *THAT* bad.” I’m not saying “they’re a paper bear!” but “most of the reasons that I was scared poopless turned out to be ill-founded.”

      And China had a point.Report

      • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

        I have read theories that this was the ‘real’ purpose of the long term occupation of Afghanistan, or at least it became the purpose after it was clear the political goals were never going to be achieved.Report

    • Chris in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      Heard an expert on the region say “Ukraine is winning this war on Twitter only,” and I think that’s a pretty good description of the phenomenon you describe.Report

  5. Pinky says:

    This article and the Katz article are both interesting reading.

    I think there’s a sense of security to be found in having a prediction. Historians aren’t in the business of predicting the future, but of studying the past. History can provide reasonable analogies, but none of them carry guarantees.

    We moderns can barely remember watching TV shows one episode per week. We want to binge-watch the war and see what happens. We want to have the best takes on every subject on the internet. We’ve just been through two years of ambiguity, during which we tried to make up comforting rules and judged people who got sick the way Job’s friends did. We can turn to history for perspective and insight on Ukraine but it won’t help us make accurate predictions.Report

    • PD Shaw in reply to Pinky says:

      In terms of predictions, I remember that just before Russia invaded Georgia, a poll of international relations scholars predicted Russia would not invade Georgia that year. This was true across all major schools of international relations (realist, liberal, constructivism), but not true for those who identified as Russian specific IR scholars. At least in those one example, it seems like country-specific knowledge, presumably its history, led to better predictions.Report

      • Pinky in reply to PD Shaw says:

        Yeah, that goes beyond the question of historians-as-forecasters. I have to wonder what kind of international expert would bother answering a poll like that, at least if it was a yes/no kind of question. Experts are typically aware of the limits of their field.Report

  6. Chip Daniels says:

    “As Katz notes, history should never be viewed as an unimpeachable oracle for the future.”

    Well said. There is a tendency to view history as unfolding in some series of inevitable causations, A leading to B to C and so on.

    So like, getting involved in a land war in Asia is always a boondoggle becomes axiomatic wisdom.
    But in truth, there are an infinite number of ways history could have unfolded, with only the slightest of changes.

    There is an alternate timeline in which diplomacy stopped Hitler, or in which Vietnam was a smashing success or any other variation, leading to some person declaring that it is just a fact that getting involved in a land war in Europe is always madness.Report