Linky Friday: But Wait…There’s More! Edition
[LF1] Everything Gawker Existed to Satirize Has Been Destroyed by Freddie deBoer
Writers and editors and publishers still socialize, but even prior to Covid it seems that the concept of a scene had gradually disintegrated as people in the same industry drifted out into so many little circles that there was no more center of gravity.
The thing is that New York City media isn’t just in New York City anymore. I have no idea if the New Gawker crew is required/will be required to be in house, but in the industry in which it is being reborn there’s almost no mandates against working remotely at all. How could these publications tell people they have to be in-office anymore, after the past year and change? The basic economics of digital media have not improved, to say the least, in the past five years. And though I have no data to prove this, I suspect the median age of people trying to make it by writing for digital outlets has trended up over time; perhaps the young striving types have finally been scared off by Brooklyn rents and a hundred thinkpieces about how writers can’t make a living the days. Many of those who have remained are now firmly in the writing-tweets-about-changing-diapers stage of their lives, and quite a few of them have decamped for Little Rock or Columbus OH or wherever else they can talk themselves into, places where the $55K/year seasoned writers can earn in the biz stretches a little further. (I will follow them in the next year or two, inshallah.) So in a basic sense I think there’s simply hasn’t been the same density of media people socializing for there to be the kind of scene that was so essential to what Gawker was. I suppose some people will object to my focusing on this element but I find it really hard to deny that Gawker was not just a publication but also a group of people who frequently got together to get drunk and make fun of you, yes you personally.
Besides, testing your coke for fentanyl before you snort it probably takes some of that magic away.
But the broader thing is that New Gawker couldn’t do what old Gawker did because everything old Gawker hated is gone. Gawker was, gleefully and often brilliantly, an anti-ideology. It was what it hated. And what Gawker hated is mostly all gone. Principal among them is glamorous, elite magazine and newspaper culture. It’s difficult to even remember this now, but Gawker’s original edge, back in the Elizabeth Spiers era, came from resentment at the money and privilege and (minor) celebrity that could be found in publishing and media – Tina Brown and Conde Naste and Greydon Carter and celebrity profiles and cushy gigs and expense accounts. Similarly, the publishing world which was intermingled with the media one had big-shot publishers and breathless profiles of hot young authors and three-martini lunches at Nobu. Spiers and those that followed her made great hay from mocking the people involved because those people really were enjoying immense material and social reward for having ascended in that world.
And in the most basic and direct terms, this world simply does not exist anymore. There are still overpaid people at Conde Naste, there are those who are lucky enough to get expense accounts (although I promise they’re not just handed a black card anymore), there’s excess and a few inflated advances in publishing, sure. But as it did in music, the internet opened a big fat hole in those industries…
[LF2] Ron Popeil, inventor, pitchman and TV infomercial star, dies at 86 by Matt Schudel in Washington Post
A millionaire many times over, Mr. Popeil lived in Beverly Hills but dined at Denny’s and shopped at Costco. During one of his Costco visits, he saw crowds lined up to buy rotisserie-roasted chicken.
Mr. Popeil got to work. He bought an aquarium, an electric motor, a heating element, a metal spit rod and a few other spare parts and began to tinker. He and one of his assistants, Alan Backus, worked on several different models, which they tested in Mr. Popeil’s kitchen, cooking chicken, duck and pork.
Mr. Popeil wanted the front of the oven to be glass to enable people to see the food as it roasted. The spit had two prongs and had to rotate horizontally, not vertically, to cook evenly and not dry out. He tested the durability of the cooker by dropping it on concrete 10 times.
Finally, the Showtime Rotisserie and BBQ countertop oven was ready. Mr. Popeil made a half-hour infomercial that first aired in 1998, and sales rocketed. Demonstrating how easy the cooker was to use, he uttered a phrase that studio audiences later chanted in unison with him: “Set it and forget it.”
Sales of the Showtime Rotisserie totaled more than $1 billion, making it by far the most successful Ronco product. Mr. Popeil developed the oven without focus groups, a marketing campaign or research staff, except for the friends who ate his chicken and helped him tinker with the electronic innards of the machine.
“My forte is mass marketing for big dollars,” he told the Boston Globe. “The product has to fill a need and the market has to be very big.”
Ronald Martin Popeil was born May 3, 1935, in New York City. He was 3 when his parents divorced, and his father largely abandoned him. He spent several years at a boarding school before he was taken in by his strict grandparents in Florida. (In 1974, Mr. Popeil’s stepmother was convicted of hiring hit men to kill her estranged husband. She served 19 months in prison, and the two later remarried.)
One of the reasons he enjoyed selling directly to people on the street or in department stores, he told “CBS Sunday Morning” in 2000, was that “I had lived for 16 years in homes without love. Now I had finally found a form of affection, and a human connection, through sales.”
He admitted in his autobiography that he was a compulsive workaholic who had been an inattentive husband and father. Survivors include his fourth wife, the former Robin Angers; four daughters; and four grandchildren.
In 1984, Mr. Popeil’s Ronco empire nearly collapsed, but he bought the rights to his products and rebuilt the company. He sold it in 2005 but continued inventing new products until shortly before his death.
“I have enough money today,” he said in 1997, “but I can’t stop. If there’s a need for these things, I can’t help myself.”
[LF3] Scarlett Johansson Is Suing Disney For Its Streaming Release Of ‘Black Widow’ by Bob Mondello by NPR
Scarlett Johansson is suing the Walt Disney Co. for releasing her movie Black Widow on streaming and in theaters at the same time.
Black Widow opened in theaters two weeks ago to the biggest box office numbers of the coronavirus pandemic: $80 million on its opening weekend.
After the first weekend, the numbers fell off a cliff. Industry observers suggest that one reason attendance fell so quickly is that Disney had screened the film simultaneously on Disney+, allowing audiences to bypass theaters and watch it at home.
Johannsson is the film’s star and also its executive producer. She says in her lawsuit — which was first reported by The Wall Street Journal — that her agreement with Disney’s Marvel Entertainment guaranteed an exclusive theatrical release and based her salary in part on the film’s box office performance.
Disney responds that the lawsuit has no merit
A Disney spokesperson responded, according to Entertainment Weekly, by saying that Disney “has fully complied with Ms. Johansson’s contract and furthermore, the release of Black Widow on Disney+ with Premier Access has significantly enhanced her ability to earn additional compensation on top of the $20M she has received to date.”
A few big films — F9, for instance, and the upcoming 007 movie No Time to Die — delayed their premieres so they could go the traditional route. Others, like Pixar’s Soul, bypassed theaters entirely and went straight to streaming.
WarnerMedia, to boost its streaming service HBO Max, is releasing all of its titles this year simultaneously in cinemas and on HBO Max. But it renegotiated many of its talent contracts to do so, reportedly paying stars and directors more than $200 million.
Johansson’s complaint says her representatives tried to renegotiate her contract but Disney and Marvel were unresponsive.
[LF4] Mixed Medical Messages Create Covid Confusion by Mark Dickinson in Arc Digital
So, who can educators trust: the CDC, AAP, or WHO?
In the absence of a unified message, administrators—lacking medical expertise—must piece together their own Covid policies, under the glare of lawmakers from both sides of the aisle looking to score political points in the mask debate.
Former President Donald Trump deserves much of the blame for transforming a health crisis into a hot-button issue. Trump spread—and is still spreading—false claims about the coronavirus, including Covid not being as bad as the flu, saying it would disappear quickly, and promoting unproven cures. A Cornell University study determined Trump was “likely the largest driver” of Covid misinformation.
However, the scientific establishment is also at fault for conflicting messages about Covid dating back to the beginning of the pandemic.
In February 2020, both the CDC and WHO said the general public didn’t need to wear masks.
Then-surgeon general, Jerome Adams, even tweeted, “Seriously people—STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!” That tweet was later deleted.
The next month Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told a Senate subcommittee masks weren’t necessary because “right now there isn’t anything going around right now in the community, certainly not coronavirus, that is calling for the broad use of masks.”
In April 2020, the CDC changed its recommendation, encouraging all Americans to wear masks away from home. Two months later, the WHO followed suit. Both Dr. Fauci and Dr. Adams reversed their stances, as well.
It’s not unusual for health officials to change their minds. In the scientific world, it’s a sign of strength to modify one’s opinion based on the latest evidence. Ultimately, the CDC endorsed masks after discovering asymptomatic patients were spreading Covid.
But in popular culture flip-flopping and disagreements among experts tend to generate confusion and distrust, a perfect breeding ground for the proliferation of virus misinformation and conspiracy theories.
[LF5] Bob Moses and the Fighting Spirit of Black Intellectual History By Robert Greene II
His own work in establishing the Algebra Project after his return to the United States is another example of how historians and others should think broadly about the idea of the Black intellectual. Establishing the Algebra Project in the 1980s to encourage middle and high school students to excel in mathematics, Moses’ efforts with the Algebra Project represent a different—but equally important—strain of the Black intellectual tradition, by using education to get ahead in American society. It was also an example of how numerous civil rights activists approached the problems of the post-civil rights era in a variety of different ways. Some, like John Lewis, went into the political arena. Others, like Gloria Richardson, decided to work locally in their own unique way, to help others. Moses, of course, continued to push for national change through education.
The passing of Bob Moses is also important to historians of the Black intellectual tradition for one final, sobering reason. As has been pointed out with the passing of Gloria Richardson, and before her John Lewis and C.T. Vivian, the generation of activists who formed the core of the Civil Rights Movement are rapidly leaving us. It is incumbent upon all historians of the Black experience in the United States to work as hard as possible to capture these stories. For intellectual historians, it is critical to continue to put their lives—and ideas—in the context of the larger fights over intellectual thought that formed the backbone of 20th century African American and American history.
[LF6] The My Pillow Guy Really Could Destroy Democracy by Anne Applebaum for The Atlantic
Bannon’s podcast, which he says has millions of listeners (it is ranked 59th on Apple Podcasts, so he might be right), is populated by full-time conspiracy theorists, some of whom you have heard of and some of whom you probably haven’t: Peter “Trump Won in a Freakin’ Landslide” Navarro, Rudy Giuliani, Garland Favorito, Willis @treekiller35, Sonny Borrelli, the Pizzagate propagator Jack Posobiec, and, of course, Lindell. Bannon calls them up one by one to report on the current status of the Trump-reinstatement campaign and related fake scandals. There are daily updates. The guests talk fast and loud. It is very exciting. On the day I was at the studio, Bannon was gloating about how President Joe Biden was now “defending his own legitimacy”: “We are going to spring the trap around you, sir!” He kept telling people to “lawyer up.”
Even in this group, Lindell stands out. Not only is he presumably much richer than Garland Favorito and Willis @treekiller35; he is willing to spend his money on the cause. MyPillow has long been an important advertiser on Fox News, so much so that even Trump noticed Lindell (“That guy is on TV more than I am”), but has since widened its net. MyPillow spent tens of thousands of dollars advertising on Newsmax just in the week following the January 6 attack on the Capitol.
And now Lindell is spending on more than just advertising. Last January—on the 9th, he says carefully, placing the date after the 6th—a group of still-unidentified concerned citizens brought him some computer data. These were, allegedly, packet captures, intercepted data proving that the Chinese Communist Party altered electoral results … in all 50 states. This is a conspiracy theory more elaborate than the purported Venezuelan manipulation of voting machines, more improbable than the allegation that millions of supposedly fake ballots were mailed in, more baroque than the belief that thousands of dead people voted. This one has potentially profound geopolitical implications.
That’s why Lindell has spent money—a lot of it, “tens of millions,” he told me—“validating” the packets, and it’s why he is planning to spend a lot more. Starting on August 10, he is holding a three-day symposium in Sioux Falls (because he admires South Dakota’s gun-toting governor, Kristi Noem), where the validators, whoever they may be, will present their results publicly. He has invited all interested computer scientists, university professors, elected federal officials, foreign officials, reporters, and editors to the symposium. He has booked, he says variously, “1,000 hotel rooms” or “all the hotel rooms in the city” to accommodate them. (As of Wednesday, Booking.com was still showing plenty of rooms available in Sioux Falls.)
Wacky though it seems for a businessman to invest so much in a conspiracy theory, there are important historical precedents. Think of Olof Aschberg, the Swedish banker who helped finance the Bolshevik revolution, allegedly melting down the bars of gold that Lenin’s comrades stole in train robberies and reselling them, unmarked, on European exchanges. Or Henry Ford, whose infamous anti-Semitic tract, The International Jew, was widely read in Nazi Germany, including by Hitler himself. Plenty of successful, wealthy people think that their knowledge of production technology or private equity gives them clairvoyant insight into politics. But Aschberg, Ford, and Lindell represent the extreme edge of that phenomenon: Their business success gives them the confidence to promote malevolent conspiracy theories, and the means to reach wide audiences.
[LF7] Simone Biles was abandoned by American Olympic officials, and the torment hasn’t stopped by Sally Jenkins
It’s a perilous endeavor to project what Biles, the most uniquely superior gymnast in the world, is feeling or thinking at this juncture. But she has been frank about these things: her profound lingering distrust of USA Gymnastics and the USOPC and her conviction they will not do right by her and other athletes of their own accord. Remember, if it wasn’t for Biles bringing her clout to the issue, these users would still be making women train in the buggy squalor of the Karolyi Ranch, the USOPC-sanctioned hellhole where they were molested.
As Biles told NBC’s Hoda Kotb in a recent interview, one of the main reasons she came back for another Olympics at age 24 was to try to ensure some accountability. “If there weren’t a remaining survivor in the sport, they would’ve just brushed it to the side,” she said.
It was only two weeks ago that the Justice Department’s inspector general released a report on the Nassar case, in which Biles learned in new infuriating detail how corrupt officials hushed up evidence that the gymnastics doctor was a serial sex assaulter and how then-USAG chief Steve Penny traded favors with local FBI agent Jay Abbott to bottom-drawer it.
Documents produced in a long-stalled civil suit against USOPC and USAG have brought other aggravating recent revelations. One in particular is worth looking at, in light of what happened to Biles on the vaulting floor in Tokyo on July 27, 2021. That’s the day Biles became so disoriented on her vault that she couldn’t risk competing in the team finals.
As chance would have it, that’s the same date that, six years earlier, Steve Penny threw her to the wolf.
FBI failed to pursue Nassar sex-abuse allegations, inspector general finds
On July 27, 2015, Biles was an 18-year-old world champion who arrived at USAG headquarters in Indianapolis for a series of appearances to promote one of their events. For two days, Biles signed autographs and did other favors to please USAG officials. Penny personally drove Biles and her mother to some of the functions and had extended conversations with her, according to John Manly, an attorney for Biles and other victims. Biles even appeared at a birthday party for Penny’s daughter.
You know what Penny failed to mention over those two days? In fact, failed to breathe so much as a word of, much less warn her of? The fact that he had credible evidence Nassar was a molester.
On July 25, shortly before Biles arrived in Indianapolis, Penny had learned of an “unambiguous claim of sexual abuse” by Nassar against a gymnast from a private investigator, who told him he was obliged to go straight to law enforcement. Instead Penny went straight to the USOPC, calling CEO Scott Blackmun for advice. On July 27, even as Biles was in Indianapolis smiling for the cameras and signing autographs, Penny scheduled a meeting with the local FBI. And on July 28, he met with the FBI’s Abbott, who subsequently smothered the investigation for months while Penny explored getting him a job at the USOPC.
And he never said a word to Biles.
If you think conduct like this is past tense for these organizations, think again. Throughout 2020 and 2021, the USOPC and USAG have perpetuated their coverup with civil court motions. They have hidden from accountability with bankruptcy proceedings. They have demanded that in exchange for any civil settlement, Biles and others who suffered Nassar’s assaults issue blanket liability releases that would protect a rogue’s gallery of well-known abusers, as well as Penny. And they have fought to keep the depositions of Penny, Blackmun and former chairman Larry Probst under seal.
Under seal.
Does that sound like these organizations have turned over a new leaf and become more “athlete-centered?” They had the nerve to feign support for Biles this week.
They are not her supporters.
They are her tormentors.
Ah, poor Ron Popeil.
I didn’t know about the unhappiness part. I only knew the guy who was in the Weird Al song and, later, on the commercials. He seemed kindly.
Report
Okay, looking at The Egg Scrambler and I see it as a solution to a problem that precious few people actually have.
I’ve heard that when you see one of these items that strike you as silly (e.g., The Snuggie, pre-peeled oranges, etc) and you’re tempted to say “that’s just for lazy people!”, consider whether it’d be a good thing for someone who was differently abled. The Snuggie, for example, is *PERFECT* for someone in a wheelchair. Pre-peeled oranges are good for people with arthritis or dexterity problems.
But I’m not seeing that here.
Maybe it’d be a great device to make a bunch of cascarones.Report
Ah, Olympics, kinda like the NCAA, but with way more sexual abuse and cover-ups.
Do these kids have anybody but their parents looking out for them?Report
LF4: Don’t have a detailed opinion on the CDC and that’s probably how it should be. I do think, though, that institutionally it is adrift without any idea of what it’s role is supposed to be. Could be a congressional issue, could be and Executive issue, could be plain bureaucratic mismanagement, could be all of the above or something else. No idea. But adrift it is.
I thought they completely botched the Mask easing, and honestly can’t see any logic or ‘science’ behind their new ‘guidance’. For me, it isn’t that they were wrong at one point or another, its that they can’t really articulate why and how they were wrong and why and how they are less wrong now.
I go to their own website to look at the information they are publishing regarding this 4th wave Delta variant… and see nothing but Vaccine public policy success.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrendscases
To be fair to everyone involved (self included) I’m keeping an eye on Excess deaths and will alter behavior if and when we see them spike in a manner that isn’t as obviously mitigated as it is now. But no, I won’t be masking in any form given the information we have now.
As a coda, while I’m personally surprised at how quickly daily vaccination rates dropped… it is still hovering at around 500k/day… and, given we’re in the middle of summer, a natural dip in the flu cycle, and enjoying the collective benefits of 60% adult vaccination rates it doesn’t surprise me that uptake is sluggish; I anticipate that as flu season approaches, and/or virulence noticeably increases vaccinations will increase.
If this were still the Trump presidency, I’d think the CDC was actively attempting to undermine his Presidency.Report
For me, it isn’t that they were wrong at one point or another, its that they can’t really articulate why and how they were wrong and why and how they are less wrong now.
Yes.
Someone pointed out the CDC’s position on margarine and vaping and says that the current situation looks a lot different when you look at how it handled those things.
One of the mask skeptics I saw back during wintertime did a cute little demonstration of what his breath does while wearing a mask when he was standing outside in sub-zero weather. He put on his mask and gave a short speech asking everybody to take note of the cloud of vapor that came out of the sides of his mask and pretty much surrounded his head as he was talking.
Of course, the best counter-argument to this was “you’re wearing a crappy mask! You should be wearing an N95 mask! If you find it easy to breathe in your mask, you’re wearing it wrong!”
So I go to the “When You’ve Been Fully Vaccinated” page set up by the CDC and look at the mask guidance…
And it doesn’t mention N95 masks. Just masks.
If this were still the Trump presidency, I’d think the CDC was actively attempting to undermine his Presidency.
Ouch.Report
Yeah, but I’m not even interested in the Mask Efficacy wars… the point was to make the curve look, well, how it looks now.
I get that maybe we’re seeing something that could get worse… but it isn’t worse… the science and the data show that the vaccines are doing what we want them to do… make the pandemic manageable and reduce deaths. The answer is still vaccinations, not masks.Report
And it doesn’t mention N95 masks. Just masks.
At the beginning, guidance that said “Everyone should wear an N95 mask” was worthless, because there weren’t enough masks. It’s unclear whether there are enough N95 masks in stock today for everyone. Certainly the majority of the people I see that are still masked are wearing commercially-made cloth masks, not N95 masks.Report
You can get a box of 10 from Amazon for $10.
Which, dang, is ‘spensive. I guess they’re reusable, though. Put them in direct sunlight, six minutes per side.Report
Wear one or two per day and cycle through them. Covid degrades over time.Report
The CDC says the typical N95 mask can be used for eight hours, either continuously or a few minutes now and then over a longer time. They also say that air drying for 72 hours will inactivate the Covid-19 virus. Damaged or badly soiled masks should be discarded.
Given my present usage pattern, I figure I can use one for at least several weeks if I don’t damage it. If I used it when I was out on the bike, not nearly so long.Report
What did the peer reviews of this experiment say? Were the empirical data published somewhere and have the results been successfully replicated elsewhere?
Because y’know, skepticism something.Report
As far as I can tell:
That’s bad, right?
(I’m pleased to see that you’ve overcome your reluctance to read scientific studies due to a lack of training on your part, though!)Report
No I mean the peer reviews of the Guy Standing In The Cold experiment.
Since it was so persuasive I want to read the data for myself.Report
Man, I really made a mistake in linking to a peer-reviewed study published by Nature that compared N95 masks to U-SL-T masks, huh?Report
Yes because that’s not what was so persuasive to those guys standing out in the cold.
They found his experiment convincing, while the CDC experts were not.
So it’s logical to ask why.Report
Well, as pointed out earlier, he wasn’t wearing an N95 mask. Remember the responses?
“You’re wearing a crappy mask! You should be wearing an N95 mask! If you find it easy to breathe in your mask, you’re wearing it wrong!”
Yeah. That.
Which is why, when I went to the CDC expert website, that I specifically looked for specific mention of N95 masks as opposed to just any old mask (including U-SL-T ones).Report
So he wasn’t really skeptical, and wasnt really performing a scientific experiment is what I’m saying.
In fact he was completely credulous and making decisions entirely on faith, not logic.Report
He went outside and did a quick test and demonstrated that a cloud of his breath quickly surrounded him as he was speaking into the camera and did so in such a way that was repeatable by anyone with a similar mask and a similar cold day.
When a scientific team got together to do a study on the, ahem, “Efficacy of masks and face coverings in controlling outward aerosol particle emission from expiratory activities” they found that N95 masks were good and work well.
And U-SL-T masks don’t work well.
His credulity accidentally led him to a similar conclusion found by the published study you requested and I linked to.Report
I notice how when someone who is skeptical of experts is challenged, he abandons his own experience and retreats to quoting experts.
Which is true for most of the vaccine and mask opponents. They are merely authority-shopping for some voice which will tell them what they already want to believe.Report
I disagree that my saying that N95 masks work and that there are studies demonstrating that they work is me demonstrating my opposition to masks.Report
It’s worth noting that the “experts” are often not the real experts. Journalists definitely aren’t experts, and are in fact notoriously bad at communicating expert consensus to the public. Political appointees and bureaucrats sometimes have real expertise, but their public communications are a combination of that, political considerations, and a need to dumb it down for the lowest common denominator, which sometimes leads to advice being distilled to the best rule of thumb someone with an IQ of 90 can follow.
The real expertise is in the literature. And most of that is garbage, too. You really need a meta-analysis that takes publication bias into account. That’s the closest you can get to unvarnished expert consensus. And sometimes there isn’t even an expert consensus to find.Report
So, here is the thing about that cloud. It’s surrounding only him. It’s not dissipating 6′-10′ in front of him, it’s just hanging around his head.
Also, the fact that he has a cloud of water vapor around him doesn’t mean he has a cloud of Covid. His breath is not streaming out of his cheeks and past the mask, it’s hitting the mask, which means some percentage of the Covid particles are getting tangled in the mask fabric, while water molecules, which are much smaller than Covid particles, are not. They are just following the airflow.
Then you get the other side, which is “what can make it through your mask?”.
The fluid dynamics of a such an example is wrong, but it’s visually impactful, so people who don’t know better think it is meaningful.Report
If the covid particles are aerosolized, it wouldn’t surprise me to find that N95 masks (properly worn, of course) would be found to limit escape of covid particles pretty well.
While, at the same time, something like a single-layer t-shirt mask wouldn’t be much use at all when it comes to controlling outward aerosol particle emission from expiratory activities.Report
Depends on the goal. A couple of layers of fabric won’t filter out a ton of Covid particles, but they will force the flow into a highly turbulent state, which means it dissipates a whole lot faster and can’t travel as far.Report
Well, a U-DL-T mask is different from a U-SL-T mask, that’s for sure.Report
So many people base this debate on the hidden premise: “If it’s not perfect, it’s useless.”
Of course, it’s plausible that your average cloth mask won’t do shit and isn’t worth wearing. However, the “guy talking in the cold” test does nothing to demonstrate that. There are so many variables not accounted for. It’s utterly “not science.”
Which is fine. Whatever. But some people (including Jaybird, evidently) treat is as the final word. Case closed.
Stop doing that.
This reminds me of all of those “not wearing a seatbelt saved my life” anecdotes. Remember those?Report
The part of the study that I quoted said:
That is to say: Some participants did worse with a U-SL-T mask than with no mask at all.
Unless I’m reading “The rates for some participants (F1 and F4) exceeded 1 particle/s, representing a 384% increase from the median no-mask value.” incorrectly, anyway.
But who cares what the science says?
Let’s go with our guts!
In your heart, you know masks work! No matter what kind they are!Report
I don’t care what those scientists say, I conducted my own experiment which proved that mask wearing will reduce emission of virus-laden aerosols and droplets associated with expiratory activities, unless appreciable shedding of viable viruses on mask fibers occurs.Report
If you don’t care what the scientists say, you’ve got a lot of company.Report
I care a lot what they say, but we also have a lot of determined disinformation and efforts to put absurd spin on real data. It is very useful to way a week or three.Report
Yes, as in this very thread.
The study cited concluded that masks are effective at dramatically reducing the transmission of the virus.
Certain caveats apply, as in all things but the bottom line is that masks work.Report
N95 masks are effective at dramatically reducing the transmission of the virus.
U-DL-T masks are not particularly effective.
U-SL-T masks might even make things worse. The researchers said that they found this surprising.Report
Yes, those are the caveats- that the masks need to be washed and not made of loose fabric which sheds particles.
None of which changes the overall conclusion that given a couple caveats, masks are very effective at reducing the transmission of the virus.Report
Did the CDC webpage make those caveats?
Or did it just say “wear a mask” without pointing out that there are some masks that actually make things worse?Report
So, you started by talking about the Guy In The Cold and his science experiment showing that masks don’t work;
When that was challenged, you retreated to citing a study that supposedly confirmed his findings, but actually contradicted them;
And now you’ve pivoted to talking about the CDC’s instructions.
Do you have an actual point here, some argument to be made, or is this just oppositional defiant disorder?Report
Chip, I linked to a scientific study that showed that some masks don’t work. That’s not *RETREATING* to a position that says that some masks don’t work.
That’s citing a scientific study that shows that some masks don’t work.
I am not pivoting to talking about the CDC’s instructions. We began the thread by talking about how the CDC’s instructions are not great.
Why are the CDC’s instructions not great?
Because they say “masks” and not “N95 masks”.
Why does that distinction matter? Because of a study that showed that some masks can actually make things worse.
Do you have an actual point here, some argument to be made, or is this just oppositional defiant disorder?
I’m treating the situation as if it’s something that can be fixed by wearing the proper mask, rather than as a situation that can be massaged by communicating that one is on board with wearing a U-SL-T mask.
Remember when you said “Act as if your health and the health of those you love depended on your decision”?
I’m telling people that studies show that an N95 mask works.
And that same study showed that U-SL-T masks don’t work. The researchers were surprised to find that they could make things worse.
And I’m frustrated that the CDC doesn’t make distinctions between the masks that work and the masks that can make things worse.
You’d think that this would be something that the CDC would be good at.Report
Put another way, have you ever seen someone wearing their mask with their nose sticking out? Like, they’re only blocking their mouth?
Which of these two thoughts is closer to your immediate response?
A: That person is not wearing their mask properly.
B: At least that person is wearing a mask.
If you see A as closer to your response to someone wearing a mask with their nose hanging out of it, then you may understand why I keep harping on how the study showed that N95 masks worked and other masks didn’t really work.
If B was your response, I guess I can understand why you think that it’s just important to wear a mask. (With a few caveats, of course.)Report
We’re up to what, four different locations of goal posts here?
Lets address them in order:
1. The “skeptical” Guy In The Cold is actually a credulous rube, as is anyone who takes him seriously.
2. The study had the conclusion that almost all masks are effective at stopping the spread of the illness.
3. The CDC should be more adept at mask instructions.
4. People should wear their mask correctly.
Does this about cover it?Report
Chip, see my comments as pertaining to a particular theme:
N95 masks are good.
U-SL-T masks might be worse than not masking at all.
The guy in the video who was wearing a U-SL-T mask was saying “look at all of this vapor around me” and, as it turns out, his hypothesis was not crazy given that there was a study that showed that his casual observation may have been accurate.
The scientists were surprised by this finding. They said as much in their paper.
The conclusion of the study was that N95 masks and surgical masks worked. U-DL-T masks are not particularly effective. U-SL-T masks could be worse than not masking.
Saying that “people should wear masks!” but not caring what kind of masks is not helpful.
All of these points are true. None of these goalposts have shifted.
If you care about your loved ones, you won’t tell them “wear a mask!”
You’ll tell them “wear a N95 mask or a surgical mask!”Report
NO.
You can successfully stop the spread of the disease EVEN IF you aren’t wearing an N95 mask.
For about the 4th time you have misunderstood the very study you cited.
First, you are only citing the two types of masks, but ignoring all the other types they tested; Washed, double layer, non-friable etc.
Second, the “transmission” that the study was talking about was of the smaller particles-NOT transmission of the disease itself.
This is a critical point you keep missing. Most Covid spread is via the larger microdroplets, not the airborne virus itself.
You can successfully stop the spread of the disease EVEN IF you aren’t wearing an N95 mask.
The only time a mask is equal to or worse than being unmasked is when a few highly specific number of variables exist- being unwashed, very thin fabric which has loose fibers.
In all other cases, being masked is much better than being unmasked.
You can successfully stop the spread of the disease EVEN IF you aren’t wearing an N95 mask.Report
You can successfully stop the spread of the disease EVEN IF you aren’t wearing an N95 mask.
It’s not a 100% thing, Chip.
Like, being *VACCINATED* isn’t a guarantee that you’ll successfully stop the spread of the disease.
But it really does a good thing when it comes to changing the risk.
Wearing a N95 mask? That does a good thing when it comes to changing the risk.
Wearing a U-SL-T mask? That might be worse than no mask at all.
You shouldn’t think that “wearing a mask” is a bulletproof vest. It’s not. But there are better masks and you should tell people to wear the better masks.
It changes the risk in the best direction.
I don’t know why you’re pushing back against this.Report
To be fair: I’m moving to Florida which is currently rocketing past their former peak virus numbers.
Ergo buying a brick of ten N95s seemed like a reasonable thing to do and I’ve done so.
It might be really well spent money and it might be serious overkill since my place of work hands out lesser masks for free.Report
If this is new news, then it’s clickbait.
If it’s old news and correct, then the CDC presumably will be changing their advise.
If it’s just old click-bait news, then notice the CDC isn’t suggesting N95s for general use.Report
COVID-19 is actually pretty tough to catch. The original estimates of R0 were around 3. That’s more than the flu, so in some sense it’s high. But when you consider that the average person might pass thousands of people on the street, be in the same enclosed space as hundreds (stores, work, church, bars, etc.), live with one or more other people, and only transmit it to three, well, it’s really not so easy to pass it along, is it?
If a mask just catches half of the virions emitted, that might help quite a bit, especially if dose matters.Report
I look at it this way. First, vaccinated people can still get delta covid. If we do, however, we have a higher chance of being asymptomatic. That’s good, except asymptomatic people can still spread the disease. I probably won’t be exposed, but I can’t be sure. If I am exposed, I don’t want to spread it, for obvious reasons. Not everyone is vaccinated. Not every non-vaccinated person is a “holdout.” Some have legit medical reasons. Some are kids. And yes, some are idiots. I still don’t want to give them covid, because I’m not a sociopath. Moreover, I don’t want to be a link in exponential growth.
I still wear my mask indoors, like when shopping. It’s easy.Report
Could be a congressional issue, could be and Executive issue, could be plain bureaucratic mismanagement, could be all of the above or something else. No idea. But adrift it is.
Technically, they are responsible for controlling the introduction and spread of infectious diseases. “Controlling” is a bit of a misnomer, since they lack regulatory authority. In practice, they study existing and potential pathogens, epidemiology, and provide limited funding for public health activities. They don’t do vaccines. They largely don’t do treatment.
Then a new pathogen shows up (and unlike SARS or MERS), spreads fairly rapidly. Put yourself in their position. Should you develop a quick and effective test? Yes, you should, but you screw that up so early testing, tracing, and quarantine efforts fail. Should you recommend N95 masks for all? There aren’t nearly enough masks. Should you recommend cloth masks? No one’s ever studied their general efficacy, and you don’t know how the pathogen spreads anyway. Should you recommend closing down significant chunks of the economy? Maybe, but with the benefit of hindsight it’s starting to appear that had relatively minor benefit because (a) much of the shutdown was voluntary (in the sense of many people stopped going out) and (b) there was a bunch of non-economic contact going on anyway (eg, mass funeral and wedding events held “secretly” despite local restrictions). Vaccines were developed with remarkable speed. Should you recommend that everyone get vaccinated? Yes, you should, and do, and 30% of the adult population says FU. No wonder they seem adrift — they have no well-defined role.
Compare the testing part to the CDC equivalent in South Korea. They had emergency powers they could invoke and (a) order the universities to stop everything and develop tests, (b) pick one of those tests and order every manufacturer with the capabilities to start production, and (c) tell the university and commercial labs to stop everything and process tests. You may remember some of the stories that were published that quoted grad students and professors in South Korea describing 20-hour work days processing tests. Test results go into a pre-planned national database so they can do contact tracing.Report
Right. What if years and years of practical reinforcement simply makes the CDC a grant distributing machine? It studies studies and funds studies for more studies. Someone has to do it. But, that’s its core competency then. Not Pandemic Response Policy Making. Or let’s say it moves at the speed of your average infectious disease. Like the way the FDA moves at the speed of cancer or chronic illness.Report
LF4:
At the end of the day it becomes a simple binary: Do I mask up, or not?
There is a tremendous amount of complex and detailed analysis, but still, it comes down to that yes/no binary decision.
Which is why all the furor over the CDCs mistakes and bad messaging seems so false and illogical, like the pretext for something else.
I have a binary choice of A or B and the downside of A is mild inconvenience and the downside of B is potential life-altering illness or death. A reasonable person would choose A but it appears that most people are using the confusion as a pretext to rationalize choosing B.Report
“At the end of the day it becomes a simple binary: Do I mask up, or not?”
Where do I mask up? Indoors, outdoors, in restaurants, or should I even be going to restaurants? Do I still need to mask after getting the vaccine? Do I still need to if I’m around people who’ve gotten the vaccine? Will I need to if the Delta variant keeps increasing? Do I still need to mask after I’ve gotten covid been cleared? What if I got old covid, should I start masking because of the delta variant? What kind of mask do I need? Is cloth good enough, or an N95, or would a shield be better? Which reminds me, do I need eye covering as well? I’ve seen people wearing multiple masks, should I do that? And what about my kids? Can they go places where there are unmasked kids? How about places with unmasked adults? Are masks unhealthy for kids? What about for adults, how often should I be changing my mask to keep it clean, and how much is it limiting my breathing? Should I wear one when I’m exercising? What about masking if exposed to covid – until I get my test results back, or for two full weeks? And what about around the elderly or people in high risk groups? Are ordinary masks enough or should I use N95s in that case, or avoid them altogether?Report
Act as if your health and the health of those you love depended on your decision.Report
Your rule doesn’t answer any of the questions above. Anyway, by giving a rule as an answer, you’re conceding that this isn’t a binary, which would require only a yes or no.Report
Tell that to Jesus. Do unto others and all that.Report
My love for people who have opted out of vaccination has worn a bit thin lately.
That aside, these are just platitudes devoid of any substance. That’s the problem with innumerate analysis. Probability matters. We all risk our lives for trivial gain all the time. Driving, crossing the street, etc. The magnitude of the risk is key.Report
It’s not just the magnitude of the risk; it’s also the level of inconvenience. I have been driving for 50 years and put in nearly a million miles. I have never been in a situation where it mattered whether I was wearing a seatbelt or not. But it’s no big deal to buckle up, so I do. I also wander about in areas where construction and building maintenance is constant. I would be marginally safer if I wore a football helmet everywhere I went to protect me from falling masonry. But I don’t. Go figure.
After all this time, keeping a mask handy and putting it on just about everywhere indoors and when I approach knots of people outdoors is simply no big deal. It’s tyranny only to snowflakes.Report
I don’t mind wearing masks indoors, but I work from home, so it’s almost always less than an hour per day. I don’t know how I’d feel about it if I had to wear one for eight or more hours per day. Especially if it were for the sake of people who’ve chosen not to get vaccinated.Report
By masking up at this point who are we accommodating exactly? Anyone vaccinated is at virtually no risk of death or serious complications and the shot has been widely available for months. Among those who have been responsible the ethical considerations have morphed from ‘i might kill someone’ to ‘i might give them a cold.’
I didn’t think masks and other measures were tyranny prior to widespread vaccination and I get why it may still make sense for schools and cancer wards. I don’t see the point in continuing to go out of the way to protect the most incorrigible people.Report
As a vaccinated person, I will masked up if asked to by a location but I also think that a good chunk of unvaccinated adults cannot be persuaded or reasoned with and I will not let them dictate my behavior or free-ride over me.Report
Keep in mind regarding the unvaccinated — some percentage of them really do have legitimate medical reasons to not get vaccinated; for example, the immunocompromised.
Myself, I have zero fucks left for the loony vax deniers, but there are good faith people who simply cannot safely get vaccinated. We mustn’t forget about them.Report
I did say a good chunk, not all of them and there are children under 12 who cannot get vaccinated. However, if those two groups were only two without vaccinations, this would be a non-conservation. Those two groups are not the problem.
I guess I find it very strange that it is a lot of vaccinated people who are still being cautious and still wearing masks. I got my vaccination. I want to see a movie in a theatre. I want to go to a museum and yet I find my took COVID seriously friends are still doing serious negotiations and decisions about what feels safe and unsafe to them.Report
My wife and I remain careful only because of our son, who is too young to get vaccinated yet.Report
I am very much hoping it comes soon for under 12. My son will have to wear a mask at daycare again next week, which is understandable but quite frustrating.Report
This is where I am. Unmasked unless asked, with a willing accommodation for young children or people who legit can’t have the vaccine.
These folks who can get it and are making a choice not to? Best of luck to them but they aren’t owed anything at this point.Report
I did not even know there was a new Gawker. I think Freddie is partially correct that the world is gone but not completely. Politico cult of savvy speak is still around. Hence the growing frustration on how places tried to hottake Pelosi nixxing Jordan from January 6.Report
Oh good news.
‘A rush to get shots’: Vaccine holdouts relent as delta variant takes hold.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/30/vaccination-increases-states-delta-surges/Report
Are they scared of Delta, or of another lockdown/mandate?
Do we care?Report
I don’t care about the motivation as long as they get their butts in gear and we can all get on with our lives.Report
I just noticed that according to Google, as of yesterday the US is at 50.0% fully vaccinated.Report
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/quality/cdc-74-of-people-infected-in-massachusetts-outbreak-vaccinated.html
CDC: 74% of people infected in Massachusetts outbreak vaccinated
…The outbreak was largely fueled by the delta variant, first detected in India and now the dominant U.S. strain. The variant was detected in 89 percent of specimens that were sequenced from 133 patients.
Additionally, specimens from vaccinated people who were infected had similar cycle threshold values to those who were unvaccinated and infected. “This might mean that the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 is also similar,” researchers said.
So we’re probably headed back to masks. When you mix vaccinated and unvaccinated people you’re putting tremdous evolutionary pressure on the virus to adapt to the vaccine.Report