Wednesday Writs: DNA and Privacy Rights Edition

Em Carpenter

Em was one of those argumentative children who was sarcastically encouraged to become a lawyer, so she did. She is a proud life-long West Virginian, and, paradoxically, a liberal. In addition to writing about society, politics and culture, she enjoys cooking, podcasts, reading, and pretending to be a runner. She will correct your grammar. You can find her on Twitter.

Related Post Roulette

15 Responses

  1. Oscar Gordon says:

    WW1: I think a warrant and a legal requirement that a familial match alone is insufficient evidence of guilt. I don’t have a problem with police using such things to develop leads on suspects, as long as all it is used for is to develop a lead. The cops still have to build a case.

    WW7: Eh, no biggie, they were usually just cueing off their handler most of the time anyway.Report

  2. Brandon Berg says:

    WW6: This doesn’t strike me as a plausible or good-faith interpretation of Oklahoma HB 1775. Here’s the relevant text:

    No teacher, administrator or other employee of a school district, charter school or virtual charter school shall require or make part of a course the following concepts:

    g. any individual should feel discomfort, guilt, anguish or any other form of psychological distress on account of his or her race or sex

    Emphasis mine. This doesn’t say you can’t teach about bad things white people have done in the past. It says that you can’t teach white kids that they should personally feel ashamed or guilty on account of their ancestry.

    In fact, the whole law reads as a laundry list of the things that the defenders of CRT insist aren’t actually part of CRT, sketching a rough outline of the bailey to the their motte.

    The people raising a stink on this are essentially admitting that they want to be allowed to teach white kids to hate themselves. The provisions of this law, as well as the Trump administration’s executive order banning racially divisive CRT training in the executive branch, are eminently reasonable, and carefully worded so as to ban only the especially toxic aspects of CRT, while still allowing legitimate anti-racism. The hysterical claims that are being made about how these laws prohibit teaching about the history of slavery or Jim Crow are not being made in good faith, but as cover for desire to be allowed to continue preaching the more pernicious tenets of CRT.Report

    • Greginak in reply to Brandon Berg says:

      Speech codes for me but not for thee. What if just teaching that white people did terrible things makes someone feel guilty… We’ll guess you can’t teach it. It’s not like people in the South haven’t been holding onto ideas that slavery wasn’t all that bad, that slaves were treated well, etc. Boy do they get their noses out of shape when people try to teach that slavery was bad.

      That CRT means trying to make white kids feel guilty for being white is the extremist version of CRT that is often disconnected from anything in reality. It’s how you whip up free speech lovers into speech coders.Report

      • Em Carpenter in reply to Greginak says:

        “Speech codes for me but not for thee. What if just teaching that white people did terrible things makes someone feel guilty… We’ll guess you can’t teach it.”
        This is exactly the concern.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Greginak says:

        Speech codes for me but not for thee.

        Well, yes. Public school teachers are government employees teaching a captive audience of impressionable children. It is entirely appropriate to limit their ability to abuse that authority.

        Hypothetical time: If teachers were to start endorsing the principles of National Socialism to their students in class, would you dismiss a law narrowly tailored to prohibit this with a glib slogan like “Speech codes for me but not for thee?” What if they were just endorsing Republican talking points? Intelligent Design? A classroom is not a personal platform for a teacher to use as he or she pleases—they have the other 128 hours of the week to do that.

        What if just teaching that white people did terrible things makes someone feel guilty…

        Nothing in the law can be reasonably interpreted as prohibiting that, for reasons I explained in my original comment. The word “should” isn’t in there just to make it scan better. See my forthcoming response to Kazzy about unreasonable interpretations.

        That CRT means trying to make white kids feel guilty for being white is the extremist version of CRT that is often disconnected from anything in reality

        IIRC, every bullet point in the bill is based on a real-world example. If I’m wrong, great. If they were going to stay in their motte anyway, then they shouldn’t have any problem with a law that takes away their bailey.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Greginak says:

        Relax, Greg.
        Oklahoma Republicans can be trusted to interpret this law in the most evenhanded and objective manner.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to Brandon Berg says:

      Well, the devil will really be in how the law is interpreted and enforced.

      Consider the following scenario:
      Teacher explains that American slavery had whites almost exclusively as slave owners and Blacks almost exclusively as slaves. The teacher explains that slavery was a moral evil.

      Would it shock you if someone insisted that such a lesson violated the law?
      It wouldn’t shock me.

      But, hey, people insist on lots of stupid things. Would that person’s position be found in favor of by whomever would make such decision? Well, that is where things could get really, really hairy. And we just won’t know unless/until curriculums and lessons start getting challenged.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Kazzy says:

        The problem with this line of reasoning is that any law can be misinterpreted. For a sufficiently motivated judge who cannot be overruled, there is virtually unlimited latitude in legal “interpretation.” Consider the classic example of Wickard v Filburn, wherein all nine Justices jointly discovered the curious phenomenon of interstate commerce which is neither interstate nor commerce. So if the Supreme Court of Oklahoma wants to ban teaching about slavery or the Tulsa massacre, I’m pretty sure they could find a way to do it right now with the laws they already have.

        Given that any law can be abused if applied in a sufficiently stupid or bad-faith manner, why should this law in particular be subject to such extraordinary scrutiny?

        Question for both you and Greg: Is the possibility of misinterpretation your true objection? If an additional clause were added along the lines of “This law shall not be construed so as to prohibit [bullet points very broadly describing reasonable topics and concepts, and categories such as objective historic facts],” would you be okay with this law?Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Brandon Berg says:

          I haven’t read the law in question so am admittedly speaking from a place of naivete. And I will say that I appreciate you quoting from the actual law and offering clarity that would likely elude most people just reading/hearing about this on the news.

          As a teacher, I’m generally opposed to laws that outlaw certain topics. Maybe it is splitting hairs in terms of who has say over what, but I don’t like the idea of curriculum being set via the legislature.

          So, in this situation, you have the “any law can be abused if applied in a sufficiently stupid or bad-faith manner” reality combined with “a group making laws about curriculum who have no real training/experience in developing curriculum and no practical history of being in an oversight position of curriculum” which, to mean, is a particular bad combination.

          When most teachers are making decisions about their curriculum, they are considering questions like, “What content do I have to cover per state standards?” and “What does my administrator expect to see from me?” This law now requires teachers to ask themselves, “Am I going to break the law talking about any topics that might somehow fall under the purview of this law?”Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

            Okay… I found and read the bill. I would agree with you that, as written, the bill should not impact any well-developed curriculum. So, in many ways this is likely much ado about nothing.

            And yet…

            I anticipate a major surge in families challenging schools by waving this law in their face any time a kid comes home and says, “We talked about race today at school.”

            So while this shouldn’t have much of a practical impact, I think the likely outcome will be schools erring way too much on the side of, “Let’s not risk the bad press and lawsuit and whatever other possible consequences could emerge from actually violating this law,” and making it less likely we get well-designed curriculum and more likely we get crap.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Kazzy says:

              I agree too. Once you spend the money on good lawyers when some a*****e brings a complaint, which is damn near inevitable. That being the case, the cautious school administrator (and there is almost never any other kind) will likely follow the path of least resistance and stay way far away from anything that would bring a complaint — however doomed ultimately after spending a s**t-ton of money on lawyers. And that is exactly what the supporters of this bill are counting on.Report

              • InMD in reply to CJColucci says:

                Not sure whether OK’s law has a private right of action but where the rubber really meets the road on this issue is going to be the civil rights lawsuits.Report

  3. Jaybird says:

    WW7: “The Distinct Odor of Marijuana” has been used a *LOT* as a pretext to stuff that ends up not involving marijuana at the end of the day. Even as I’m pleased that these cops are able to retire, I’m wondering what their replacements will end up signaling that they smelled.

    “The distinct odor of defiance, which was also noticed by the K-9.”Report

  4. PD Shaw says:

    WW1: The federal database is already outdated in terms of the state of technology by about 15-20 years. Mandating its use as a precondition will result in one of two things: (1) Direct match, but the investigator will want to proceed to confirm with SNP genotyping, or (2) no match, so now the investigator can use commercial databases with SNP genotyping. The first event may seem like overkill, but I would expect a defense attorney to bring up in cross examination the comparative disadvantages of STR genotyping. Oh well, maybe there will be enough DNA evidence for defense to run their own tests.Report

  5. Dark Matter says:

    WW1:
    So… the police will now have to go to a Judge, say “we have DNA”, and then they’ll use these semi-public databases?

    When would the Judge say “no”?Report