The Hunger Games: I Volunteer As Conscript

Kristin Devine

Kristin has humbly retired as Ordinary Times' friendly neighborhood political whipping girl to focus on culture and gender issues. She lives in a wildlife refuge in rural Washington state with too many children and way too many animals. There's also a blog which most people would very much disapprove of https://atomicfeminist.com/

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55 Responses

  1. InMD says:

    It’s reductive to the point of being insulting to my intelligence.

    I feel like this could be stamped on 95% of all online commentary. Well put.Report

  2. veronica d says:

    Yes! This!

    I don’t always agree with you, but you’re 100% right on this one.

    On this:

    If you go in for biology, one could even say that it may be an innate quality in all human beings, whenever one is smaller, weaker, less physically able, that leads us to be less confrontational and find alternate means of survival than “badassery” in the face of aggression.

    This may seem out of left field, but this reminds me of some things Keith Johnstone wrote in Impro. Specifically, he examines how people express notions of “status,” along with the ensuing patterns of dominance and submission. In his model of improvisational theater, playing with status interactions is the root of much drama. Anyhow, he talks about his experience with students, helping them explore how they display status. In short, he notes that many students have a “default mode.” Some consistently display high status (“don’t mess with me”); others display low status (“I’m not worth hurting”). He then describes how he has to work with some of them to get them to “play” the opposite status mode. Moreover, he argues that, in real life, being able to shift between status modes is incredibly useful.

    Anyway, wildly off topic, but I find it interesting.

    Thanks for the post.Report

  3. Philip H says:

    I do not and will not ever accept that the only type of functional feminist female character possible is the one who goes out and takes on the world and breaks all the rules and seizes everything she wants and makes demands on everyone all the time. I do not and will not define “agency” as “making everyone do what I want all the time, damn the consequences, never settling for anything that isn’t completely desired by me in any given moment”.

    This is well written – and matches my thinking on this general subject. Thanks!Report

  4. Kazzy says:

    I haven’t read/watched THG, but sounds like the criticism you describe here falls into the category of, “That person shouldn’t have done what others told her to do… she should do what *I* tell her to do!”

    They aren’t actually mad that she (supposedly) lacks agency. They’re mad she exercised her agency differently than they wanted her to. The criticism itself denies her agency.Report

  5. North says:

    Good piece. I’m generally in agreement though, to be honest, I haven’t seem much of this vein of criticism myself so I can’t judge it much.

    I found Hunger Games to be quite an interesting movie and book series. It did best the closer it kept its focus on Katniss herself who was an excellent character. When the scope widened the authors grasp on her world and narrating within it was considerably more tenuous.

    THG also has the distinction of being one of those rare film series that improved on the books they adapted. The first Hunger Games rose, about, to the same level as its titular book but the sequels significantly improved on their associated books in a variety of ways (keeping Effie around being one absolutely brilliant choice for instance) and really solidified weaker spots in Suzanne Collins’ writing.Report

    • Kristin Devine in reply to North says:

      I totally agree. One of my pet peeves of the subsequent books is that they stepped away from what was compelling about the story, in favor of an epic battle, and it just seemed so much of what we’ve seen already. Thanks for reading!Report

  6. Pinky says:

    I’ve seen the movies but didn’t read the books.

    I guess I don’t really understand agency-type critiques of a work of fiction. No character starts out in an open sandbox. The setting provides the limitations that give structure to the story. A protagonist may have the option to follow the call or walk away, but sometimes he doesn’t even have that. Robocop sure doesn’t start out with much agency. As the movie reaches its conclusion, he acts on the limited choices he has. Maybe Thor starts out with full agency until he gets banished and loses use of his weapon, but that’s the closest I can think of.

    Katniss stands in THG series for one decision. She goes on to be herself (for better and worse) and more or less grows in agency. If I think of THG and lack of agency, Peeta’s the character who comes to mind. I don’t think he played Katniss at all. That said, I agree with a lot of the points in this article. Nice job.Report

    • Kristin Devine in reply to Pinky says:

      This makes me think of the “Mary Sue” type critique – a character who can basically do and be anything they want easily.

      It seems a little like damned if you do, damned if you don’t – a character who has limits externally set upon them has no agency, if they have no limits they’re a Mary Sue, I mean, what do people really want here?

      Just the opportunity to complain, I’ll wager.Report

      • InMD in reply to Kristin Devine says:

        I actually think it goes beyond basic fiction tropes. Pinky brings up Robocop, which is a great example of a movie where adding some politics greatly improves the final product, from what would be a brutal, somber, but probably forgettable action movie into something way more interesting. Doesn’t matter if you agree with the stances, having them in there has a hugely positive impact. It helps of course that it’s presented in a humorous rather than a preachy way.

        Having seen THG movies, but not read the books, I think these critics miss out on the fundamentals of making a good film. If Katniss was what they seem to want her to be it would tank the entire premise. Like, do they want to see a good movie, or do they want to see their politics? Because there are contexts where those things are mutually exclusive.

        I also wonder about these people who seem to need every cultural artifact to reflect their personal politics right back at them, just so. It takes for granted (a) that such a thing can be made and (b) that such a thing can be made profitability, which when you consider how much went into making THG, seems crazy.

        And then say you made it anyway. I feel like you’d get the equivalent of one of those Christian imitation grunge bands from the 90s. It would be terrible and everyone would hate it.Report

        • Stillwater in reply to InMD says:

          This reminds me of the David Mamet quote (para/mangled): If you see some massive injustice on the street where you live, the last thing you should do is try to write a play about it.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Kristin Devine says:

        Yeah, I’m sure it’s a continuum. Too weak no character, too strong no character. People can argue about exactly where the sweet spot in the middle is. I can understand feminists being worried about a general trend where too many female characters lack agency, but I’m not sure that trend is true anymore, and it doesn’t necessarily ruin any particular (not-grotesque) individual case.

        I saw the movie “Hanna” recently. I enjoyed it. It’s a movie that didn’t get much attention, and I think it worked best by my going into it with no assumptions about its story or rhythm. I wouldn’t want to talk about its specifics, but it’s an interesting movie to think about related to these issues.Report

        • North in reply to Pinky says:

          One of the things about THG that struck me, both in the books and the film, was that Katniss -suffered- the wounds of her experiences and continued to suffer them for the rest of the story. This girl was traumatized. She had all kinds of mental ticks as a result of being thrown into this nightmarish death match and they stayed with her right to the very end of the films when she and Peta (himself incredibly mentally scarred from his ordeals) settled down twitching together in mutual trauma.

          Likewise she had deficiencies, serious ones, and while she may have been able to work around them later in the films she never transcended them. She was not a people person, she was not a crowd pleaser and couldn’t instinctively do what’d appeal to the masses (often the opposite) and the characters around her worked hard to ameliorate those flaws.

          If anything Katniss was maybe the ultimate anti-Mary Sue.Report

          • Stillwater in reply to North says:

            Isn’t the definition of a hero a person who can act for the greater good *within the constraints they currently exist in*, whether psychological, cultural, political, economic, etc etc? The hero is the person who rises above *those* obstacles. not some preferred ones.

            I’ll admit I’m on uncertain footing wrt analyses of how pop culture figures satisfy contemporary feminists’ demands for ideological purity, but Katniss *always* struck me as the reluctant hero. She didn’t want any of this. The early parts of the first book make that clear.

            I dig your comment because it cuts through the contemporary META and returns us to what’s critically important: stories about individuals faced with choices that either do or don’t impact us. Can we relate to Katniss and the choices forced upon her? Sure we can.Report

            • North in reply to Stillwater says:

              An excellent point- yes; precisely. Katniss certainly was reluctant from the very get go. In fact no small part of the second film/book was her desperately trying to simply not be drawn back into the conflict that she had unwittingly ignited.Report

              • InMD in reply to North says:

                I’ve always loved the Mad Max movies and my wife has sat through bits and pieces of them with me. When her and I watched THG she said I should think of Katniss like PG-13 Max (she has also read the THG books). Seemed about right.Report

              • North in reply to InMD says:

                Yes! I only truly learned about Mad Max through Fury Road (you can be jealous now- but not too jealous because my newfound fandom had an… interesting… time when I went to watch the rest of his films) but that is definitely a person who’s mentally scarred!Report

              • InMD in reply to North says:

                LOL! Yea it’s funny I liked Fury Road a lot, but I remember thinking anyone who gets into the series via this installment is in for an experience. The first one I saw was the Road Warrior and even going from that to the others was pretty weird. But that’s what’s great about them, they’re all kind of bizarre in different ways, and don’t even exist entirely in the same genre.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to North says:

                You gotta go all the way back to Mel yo. you won’t be disappointedReport

              • InMD in reply to Stillwater says:

                Mel’s real life descent into the aggressively unhinged adds a whole extra spice to the old ones.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to InMD says:

                The Year of Living Dangerously is •still*l a great movie. So’s Mad Max.Report

              • InMD in reply to Stillwater says:

                Concur.Report

              • North in reply to Stillwater says:

                I.. I watched them in basically reverse chronological order. So it was a very strange journey for me:

                -Beyond Thunderdome: Oh look it’s Tina! Hi Tina! What is with all kids suddenly in this movie? And a train chase? Did Spielberg hijack this movie? To this day I occasionally chant “Two men enter, one man leave” for no reason.

                Mad Max 2: Ohhhh that’s the car the camel was pulling. Lord Humungus… … … apparently after nuclear war the gay crowd from the Saloon’s Thursday night scene inherits the world. There are worse fates. AWWWW! Jack Russel Terrier- they killed him!!! For Shame!

                Mad Max- *a series of confused blinks* How did.. this.. spawn.. those? Like, I’m looking at the little 4 foot tall mother, and the little 4 foot tall father and then the seven foot tall sequel children and I’m like… how? I don’t understand.Report

            • Stillwater in reply to Stillwater says:

              Adding to the above: isn’t the concept of a person exhibiting their personal power without constraint, 100% unencumbered from consequences and 100% derived from personal ‘agency’ best captured by the idea of a Superhero rather than a boring, regular old human hero?

              Heroes are people. They have to eat, maintain relationships, pay the bills. Superheroes don’t have any of those constraints.Report

              • North in reply to Stillwater says:

                Ohhhh I like where your brain is going with it. Yeah there’s definitely an element of that in superhero flicks. Wonder what it says about society that Superhero flicks are such a hit right now. Eh, probably same thing it said about society when Westerns ruled the cinemas.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to North says:

                I’m thinking about the show Friends, myself. 🙂 Everything else devolves from there.Report

          • Pinky in reply to North says:

            I think about it a little differently, but pretty much agree with you. To me, the distinct Mary Sue trait isn’t so much their success but their popularity in-universe. And the movies (and I assume the books) really tear into that idea. Katniss isn’t likable. She’s an introvert scarred by oppression, repeatedly cast as a vibrant hero. That’s the part of the story I find most interesting. Most of the mental effort, both by her and by those around her, is spent trying to deal with the fact that she isn’t the Mockingjay.Report

            • North in reply to Pinky says:

              If anything the books are -harder- on Katniss because they’re written from a first person point of view. So not only do we see her errors and deficiencies from an outside perspective but we also hear her thoughts and self doubts (spoiler: Katniss does not think highly of herself).Report

        • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

          I really liked Hanna. Despite a plot that wasn’t the most original in the world they just knocked it out of the park with enjoyable characters and acting. Cast was great, cinematography, everything.Report

          • Stillwater in reply to InMD says:

            You know how people challenge you to identify a movie that’s better than the book and everyone gets into squabbles about the book being shit and so on?

            Well, the HG movie is better than the book, and the book (IMO) is really, really good.

            Just to be clear, I’m talking about the *first* book in the series here…)Report

          • Stillwater in reply to InMD says:

            The Hunger Games seems to me a unique artistic property in that it satisfies an enduring internet challenge: name a movie which is better than the book. THG is (IMO) a great book, but the movie is outstanding. Can’t say the same about the other books/movies in the HG series, unfortunately, except that whatever you think of the movies, they’re better than the books…Report

            • North in reply to Stillwater says:

              Yes, it bears repeating. HG is a fine book and an outstanding film. The subsequent sequels are weaker books but each film is a +1 onto its respective books baseline. The film makers genuinely, honestly, improved on the books. It is remarkable.Report

            • InMD in reply to Stillwater says:

              I went into the movie kind of skeptically in the sense that I knew it came from YA (particularly female) fiction. Nothing wrong with that of course, just figured I wasn’t the target demographic. I figured it was going to be like Twighlight or something which is just… again not for me. This got worse when I learned the premise was so similar to Battle Royale. How could it come close to competing with that?

              But then they ran THG on TNT for like 6 months straight when my son was an infant and I couldn’t do much other than sit in front of the TV. I gave it a chance and it grew on me, though agree that they got a little weaker with each sequel.Report

  7. Loved this piece, Kristin! I think the belief that Katniss is “not feminist enough” is an outgrowth of the recent culture that values confrontation and “call outs” over understanding and persuasion. It’s “how to talk to your racist uncle” on steroids, a belief that if you’re RIGHT, you have an obligation not to give any quarter whatsoever. It may make for nice clickbait pieces. But it makes for terrible life advice and worse fiction.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Michael Siegel says:

      Back around… 2010? Maybe? There was a particular type of article that went something like:

      “100 Albums that you need to Throw Away”

      And it basically just went through the Top 100 Alt-College Albums Of The 90’s.

      Blue Bell Knoll by the Cocteau Twins!
      Exile in Guyville by Liz Phair!
      Post by Björk!

      And each entry would have a cheeky little paragraph about why this album is overrated. “Are we still pretending that not understanding the words to a song is *DEEP*?”

      That sort of thing.

      They got shared far and wide.Report

    • Yes! It’s not only just an option to be confrontational in situations that require it, it’s that you’re being a weakling or even a bad person if you don’t!

      I mean, how could this end badly o.OReport

    • DensityDuck in reply to Michael Siegel says:

      “It’s “how to talk to your racist uncle” on steroids, a belief that if you’re RIGHT, you have an obligation not to give any quarter whatsoever.”

      I think that has more to do with people engaging in the cathartic fantasy of really letting it go on some utterly-deserving target, and since they recognize that screaming at a stranger in public is Not Nice Behavior (and a stranger is under no obligation to stay around and listen) their fantasy involves a family member, and they want to be soothed and comforted and told that this fantasy is good and acceptable and that they shouldn’t feel guilty because those people really are bad people who deserve it.Report

      • veronica d in reply to DensityDuck says:

        See, to me the “bigoted uncle” thing is real life. It’s not some fantasy scenario. It’s a real problem that my friends deal with every holiday season. Basically, is it worth visiting family knowing you’ll be subjected to repeated degrading comments by that one family member who won’t shut up? How should you feel about your other family members who won’t stand up for you? Moreover, if you stand up for yourself, your family will see you as the “bad guy” — for “making waves” — instead of the rotten bigot.

        In other words, we’re expected to show boundless grace to someone who shows no grace to us. It really sucks. Honestly, it’s depressing. So many of my friends have ended up completely alienated from their own families, so much that we’ve invented the idea of “chosen family,” those people you encounter in life who, among other things, won’t invite a repulsive bigot to Christmas dinner and expect you to smile while they run their mouths.

        The fantasy is not to “let it go” at the bigot. The fantasy is that they are not invited in the first place.Report

  8. DensityDuck says:

    I’ll be That Guy. (It’s okay, I’ve had lots of practice.)

    The two TLP essays you linked are not suggesting that Hunger Games is Bad Feminism because Katniss isn’t A Stone Killa Deathmachine. They’re suggesting that it’s Bad Feminism because the story she’s in wouldn’t let it matter if she was, because the overall message is “the world will arrange itself to make you be what it wants, no matter what you do, because Females Do Not Have Agency and Must Not Have Agency.” When Katniss-the-character makes a choice, even a good choice, it’s taken away by the story. She does something nice, that person gets killed; she does something mean, it’s not allowed to “count” (her arrow misses, a rock gets in the way, she doesn’t get the shot lined up, something stops her.) Even when she flares up and acts out, it’s laughed off, and yeah it’s evil badguys doing the laughing-off as a sign of how they’re evil but it still happens, the message of “what you do doesn’t matter” is still communicated, and it’s never really subverted in the narrative by Katniss’s own hand. The ultimate moment is “screw you, I’ll kill myself to make this not go how you want”, and even that gets negated.

    It’s kind of the same idea as the “Indiana Jones is not needed for his own movie” thing, the idea that if Katniss simply hadn’t existed then the exact same story would have happened.

    To be fair, the later books/movies of the story do give Katniss much more agency ; for all that her decisions invariably come out badly, she does get to make them, and there’s no story twist or machination that stops the result from being real.Report

    • I would not have expected otherwise because you’re the one who cued me in to those! Though I linked those particular essays because I found them insightful, the sentiment I was writing about were really widespread and vocal. It was just that all the other examples were really lousy writing and not worth sharing, did not add anything to the overall debate. Those pieces were very very interesting and I really enjoyed them, and encapsulated a lot of the same stuff I’d read elsewhere so I wanted to draw everyone’s attention to them. 🙂Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Kristin Devine says:

        Thank you!

        I do agree that there’s a childish interpretation of Strong Female Characters that’s existed for a long time, and that it mostly resolves down to “a Strong Female Character is a man with tits”.Report

    • Pinky in reply to DensityDuck says:

      I like the idea of having a That Guy hat that can be passed around.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to DensityDuck says:

      The world of the Hunger Games is a fairly crap sack world though. If we made the protagonist a cis-gender man but kept everything else, his inability to change much would be seen as demonstrating the crap sack nature of the dystopia. Only a minority would be complaining about how much of a wimp he was. Katniss could still be a feminist despite being basically impotent in a crap sack world.Report

  9. Vikram Bath says:

    This is very interesting. I have a question!

    Do you dislike the third entry Mockingjay in the series?
    I only saw the movies, not the books. In Part 2 of Mockingjay, I would argue that Katniss at the end does take agency in the traditional, perhaps-male way that you are critical of here. I wrote a partial review of it here, by the way: https://ordinary-times.com/2017/02/27/objects-have-free-will-people-dont/
    As I write there, the entire enterprise of presenting fictional characters you control entirely as having agency is kind of weird. All of them are your literal puppets. We are really debating about whether the illusion of agency is convincing or not.Report