“Better Voters” Is Not Just About Voting

Michael Siegel

Michael Siegel is an astronomer living in Pennsylvania. He blogs at his own site, and has written a novel.

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49 Responses

  1. Good piece, bud. Thanks for writing it.

    The problem I have with all these “educated voters only need apply” is that the people who tend to make them, like KW, assume it is THEY who will be in charge of determining the particulars. In reality, it will be whoever is in power at that time, usually bureaucrats. And the people we’re given to vote for seem to be less educated in many cases THAN the voters (see also: the Internet is a series of tubes).

    Just another dumb argument akin to Nero fiddling while Rome burns.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      I dunno. Disregarding for a moment the question of whether we ever would have a voting test in this country, I think it’d be fairly easy to come up with a list of questions.

      Set up a federal blue-ribbon commission of 10 former senators able to propose 20 questions each. Each question has to receive 7 votes to make it on to the next stage. The final list will have 50 questions on it, with 1-2 word or single-number answers verified by the head of the Library of Congress. Publish the list and allow each state to do whatever they want with it.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

        Why not make college degrees a proxy indicator?

        Like, those with high school diplomas are allowed to vote;
        Bachelor’s degrees get 1.5 votes;
        Master’s degrees, 2.0 votes;
        Doctorates, 3.0 votes.

        Degrees in any of the humanities are further multiplied by 1.10. Poli Sci and History majors are multiplied by 1.5Report

        • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          I don’t see a benefit to this. In my system, no one is excluded from voting if they can meet a certain floor. (I assume you’re saying that people without HS diplomas wouldn’t be able to vote.) Anyway, I’m not really looking for a proxy for political knowledge, I’m talking about actual political knowledge.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

            Isn’t the idea to have a better-informed electorate, who have a superior grasp of civics and politics?Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              “I’ve studied Marx extensively. I think I know how a society should be ordered!”Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                This, but unironically. 😉Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                If we could have a vote periodically on whether “seriously, this isn’t *REAL* Marxism”, I’d be down.

                As a student of history, I don’t have a whole lot of faith that our educated classes are capable of telling whether they’re in charge of a society that white college students will say wasn’t *REAL* Marxism 20 years later.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                This is what I’m getting at, the simultaneous disdain for the “educated class” and self-confident claim of knowledge.

                People who want to restrict the vote to those who “are knowledgeable” almost always, to a man, dripping with disdain for those who are educated.

                Buckley’s “I’d rather be governed by the first 400 names in the phone book” comes to mind.

                The implicit claim is that there is a knowledge held by the speaker which eludes both the stupid and educated, residing in some sweet spot of auto-didactic Sarah Palin type “common sense”, or “alternative knowledge”.

                What causes this claim to collapse is that it is based on the idea that this “common sense” knowledge can’t be determined by degrees or credentials- there are no proxy indicators for it that we can confer.

                Instead it is always just self-conferred, a crown that one sets on their own head.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                The point of Democracy isn’t “yay, the people chose who is ruling” half as much as it is “yay, the previous guy left after the people threw the bums out!”

                (That’s what made the Jan 6 thing so very awful. If you lose the election, you leave. That’s Democracy.)

                A million years ago, we had a Democracy Symposium for the site. I still pretty much stand by what I said back then.

                The point of “Liberal Democracy” is the “Liberal” part. Not the Democracy part.

                I’m sure we could come up with examples of stuff that shouldn’t be put up to a vote until the cows come home.

                I’m sure we could come up with examples of stuff that is *TOO* *IMPORTANT* to leave up to a vote.

                I’m 100% on board with Liberal Democracy so long as we agree that there are areas outside of your jurisdiction.

                And “those who are educated” tend to be members of a particular class (or those who aspire to it) and they aren’t good judges of what their jurisdiction is.

                I no more want them voting on stuff that isn’t within their jurisdiction than I want the uneducated voting on it.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                What does “jurisdiction” even mean, in this context?

                And since the very Constitution itself can be scrapped and re-written, isn’t everything in our jurisdiction?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                What does “jurisdiction” even mean, in this context?

                Stuff that is “Nunya” is stuff that I consider outside of your jurisdiction.

                Is there any part of your life that you believe is none of my business?

                Then: That’s a good starting point for the concept. Maybe we can go up a level of abstraction or two and see if we can’t find a principle somewhere.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Why would educated people not be better or worse judges of what their jurisdiction is, as compared to say, anyone else?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I think that better-educated people are more likely to have learned really quality rhetorical tricks that allow them to lie to themselves (if not lie to others).

                As for being judges… well, it’s like anything.

                I’ve seen people think that other people’s lives are their own business while their own lives are not other people’s business.

                I think that well-educated people can get really good at explaining why that would be the case.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                I think this is a good point, and I’ve seen in in myself as well, the ability to mount an argument for or against nearly anything we wish.

                I would say this applies to most of the people here- we tend to be well educated, well-read, and hold strong opinions.

                But that just gives me pause- we here at OT are exactly the sort of people that nearly everything thinks the ideal voter ought to be.

                Would a world governed by the OT commentariat really be any better? More small-l liberal, less blinded by ideology and hubris?

                I’d love to think so but I doubt it.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Would a world governed by the OT commentariat really be any better? More small-l liberal, less blinded by ideology and hubris?

                Do you mean ‘governed by’ or ‘the only voters’.

                Because if we actually _govern_, there really wouldn’t be a lot of ‘ideology’. Like, voting is something else, but governing, yes, we’d be a lot better, but _not_ for the reasons you think.

                We would be better because we operate in a world where lobbyists do not buy us $50 dinners to gravely inform us of the problem of meat regulation. Or where we were surrounded by the wealthy 24/7. Or where we constantly have to suck up to donors. (Which, obviously, has no impact on policy positions, wink wink.)

                We might only do it better for a week, mind you, because it’s entirely possible we can be bought as easily as anyone else.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to DavidTC says:

                I guess what I was getting at is that we who are the “ideal” voters- educated, literate, well informed- are every bit as prone to foolishness and mendacity and self-delusion as anyone.

                The idea behind “better” voters is that it is an information problem. That if people possessed more and better information they would make better choices.

                But governance is really a social problem, a leadership problem, requiring not information, but wisdom and the insight into human nature and behavior.

                A voter who has a keen grasp of human nature and possesses a well-tempered soul will make good choices even if they are functionally illiterate.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                As I said below (and in all seriousness), Kevin Williamson has contempt for everyone. And while I’m personally anti-elitist, I’m not anti-elite. Do you think I drip with distain for those who are educated? Anyway, I’ve already presented an indication of what I’d want to see on a voting test, a set of straightforward questions that aren’t designed to stump anyone, questions that would neither require nor reward years of study. So you can’t really trap me on this one.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              That’s not my goal. I don’t want an electorate with superior knowledge, just an electorate excluding extreme ignorance. I have nothing against 100% voter participation if they demonstrate basic knowledge.Report

              • North in reply to Pinky says:

                Arguably it’s the uninformed voters who are moderating partisanship. Voters who follow politics closely and are well informed of the particulars by and large not only have opinions on the issues but passionate ones. They tend to be fervent partisans.Report

              • Pinky in reply to North says:

                I guess that’s possible, but there’s a whole Dunning Kruger aspect to it. Often the people who think they follow politics closely are the partisans, and the ones who actually do are more open to potential compromises. Or I guess the difference between political junkies and policy junkies.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                That may be true, but if the political junkies are rare among the population as a whole, the citizen-wonks might as well be unicorns.

                When I look at the current situation of both parties and the internal contradictions of each I wonder if they, and therefore our system, could survive more people pondering the dissonance. The GOP is dealing with the increasingly apparent contradictions between being the party of corporate, global capitalism but also the party of nationalist and social conservatism. The Democrats have their tensions of trying to be the party of technocracy and high finance, but also socially radical bourgeoisie, and church-going racial minorities, all at once.

                I think a case could be made that the low info lever pullers and single issue voters are the oil keeping the whole thing from seizing up. If they got wiser a lot of them might not be able to stomach being in bed together.Report

              • North in reply to Pinky says:

                Yeah I’m dubious that people who are deeply conversant in various given policy positions represent a material voting constituency. You be better off trying to build a national movement on libertarianismReport

        • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Tie it to income as well! People who are barely scraping by at a non-profit haven’t demonstrated the same amount of know-how as someone who helped turn a software startup into a billion dollar company.

          We don’t want our government to barely scrape by! We want it to grow, grow, grow!Report

      • Mike Schilling in reply to Pinky says:

        The only question that needs to be asked is “Was the 2020 presidential election legit?” Anyone who says “no” is barred for life.Report

  2. Greginak says:

    I agree we need more than just everybody voting. But voting is the prereq for people being more involved and pols being accountable. Heavily gerrymandered districts and limited voting will certainly never lead to that. R’s doubling down on limiting votes and the Big Lie is toxic to democracy and accountability.Report

  3. Oscar Gordon says:

    …played only at the national level…

    I think this is key. When the media and both parties are almost exclusively focused on National contests, people lose sight of the local ones, and the forget that they can have a much greater impact locally than nationally.

    It might be easier to keep track of the National players without a program, but it’s smarter to grab the program and start getting familiar with the local players.Report

  4. CJColucci says:

    Voting does not solve problems it is not designed to solve. It is child’s play to show that a vast chunk of the voting public, and groups that ought to be part of the voting public, is ill-informed and often ill-motivated. If the purpose of voting were to ensure the enactment of “good” policies, as more informed classes of voters define “good,” or to elect better-quality officials, as classes who consider themselves better-quality define “better quality,” it would be an abject failure. So let’s admit that up front, and when somebody writes the usual stuff, whether quietly or out loud, we can just respond: “What else is new?” You may as well criticize my car for not being able to transport me from New York to London. True, but so what?
    The most important thing by far in a system of selecting political leadership is that the system be broadly acceptable to the people who will be asked to accept the results, win or lose. In the modern world, where people have or had a choice, the only contender the mass of people will accept is voting. Not because the voters are wise or well-informed, or public-spirited, but because they are competent, law-abiding adults who receive the benefits and bear the burdens of the decisions political leaders make, and they won’t accept those decisions — where they have a choice — unless they have had their say. And since political leaders respond to people who have say, as many people as possible must have their say, with the burden on anyone who wants to restrict the franchise. The alternative is pitchforks and torches.Report

    • Agree with a lot of this. I think that’s what Williamson is on about when he talks about “legitimacy”. Although it should be noted that the people most screaming that government is illegitimate are … those who voted for Trump.Report

  5. Andy says:

    Excellent post. I haven’t read the Williamson piece, but I agree with your arguments about the importance of actions beyond voting.

    The only thing I would add is to mention the hypocrisy of many of these political efforts – for example, proponents of HR1 claim it will bring more democracy and representativeness, yet there are several provisions in the bill designed to harm third parties as if they aren’t already weak enough. Increasing political participation while decreasing political choice in a country with a large and diverse population isn’t helpful, particularly as the two major parties sort and serve increasingly narrow interests.Report

  6. Chris says:

    “Now, I don’t disagree that there are some groups the government should not be accountable to, such as prisoner.”

    Huh…Report

  7. Chip Daniels says:

    “If we’d had a fair and open national plebiscite about slavery on December 6, 1865, slavery would have won in a landslide.”

    Who “we”, white man?Report

    • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      I get what you were going for, but that doesn’t even work on a raw-numbers basis, ignoring who would have been legally able to vote.Report

    • Chris in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      If slavery would have won in a landslide, one has to wonder what had caused the last half century of tension between the less populous Southern states and the more populous, free Northern ones.

      Hell, one has to wonder what happened at the Constitutional Convention.Report

  8. Saul Degraw says:

    The problem with Williamson’s essay is that the ideological bias was obvious and the tell of “No it is the people who are wrong” and “Dissolve the people and elect another” could be seen millions of miles away. Williamson realizes that his preferred policies are not popular and are getting less popular and instead of doing honest self-inquiry, he doubles down to imagine it is the masses who are unwashed and wrong and need to be ruled by their betters.

    TBF, all people with ideological bents can do this. The broad left dislikes that it can’t convince Americans to give up cars in favor of bikes and mass transit at times and can seethe about this but I do not see the broad left advocating that people should lose their franchise because of car love. The tendency on the right now seems to be ideological rigidity (“conservatism can’t fail, it can only be failed.”) and fighting like hell to keep the hard economic libertarian, small government (except on social issues) dreams of the Reagan 80s alive for a few more decades. And conservatives have a mountain range worth of crank/unpopular issues that they have decided are worthy hills to die on because they still are locked in iron-chains to Goldwaters quote on extremism in “defense of liberty” (as they define it).Report

  9. Jaybird says:

    Restricting Voting is Opposing Gentrification for white people.Report

  10. InMD says:

    My main gripe about this debate is the cynicism of it. It tests my principal of charity in that I struggle mightily to believe anyone sincerely thinks what they say they do. And I mean that generally, not about any commenters or Michael (I actually agree with a lot of his thoughts).

    Anyway I think voting serves as a sort of baseline consent of the governed and as a necessary pressure release. Making it require more than nominal effort undermines both of these purposes, and after all it is and should be a right. That being said, while I don’t think it should require more than nominal effort, that does not mean that any sort of effort is illegitimate. I don’t believe that normal registration processes or in person voting requirements, etc. are resulting in any material level of disenfranchisement anymore than I believe there is any material level of fraud in US elections. To be clear, yes, some small amount of both inevitably happens, but I don’t think it’s impacting the results of our politics.

    Anyway because I have to semi invoke Godwins law I’m reminded of a story my grandma tells about the town she’s from in France. Per her account, a few days after they were liberated, several collaborators had their heads shaved and were shot. I’ve read enough to know that there were reprisals in Europe that aren’t mentioned much in the US, though over the years I have come to have doubts about the veracity of this particular story. Nevertheless I think it’s a reminder of the violence that normally occurs when power changes hands, even when the good guys win. Williamson and all of us deep down know why we don’t complain about it the way we would when Amazon screws up. The stakes are way higher when we demand more than just our say in the matter. I think we discount that at our peril.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

      The important part of “Liberal Democracy” is the “Liberal” part and not the “Democracy” part.

      “We need to make this more difficult” is leaning harder into the “make this less Democratic” part, sure, but it’s the “make this less Liberal” that is the part that we’re going to grow to regret. It’s hard to lean back out of that.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

      I don’t believe that normal registration processes or in person voting requirements, etc. are resulting in any material level of disenfranchisement

      Why do you not think this? It is demonstrably true that _some_ people cannot vote in person (Extreme inarguable example: People with no immune system who literally cannot leave their self-contained room with filtered air.), and ADA requires them to be able to vote.

      I sorta feel you’re hedging a lot, and the second I say ‘What about X?’, you’re going to say ‘Well, I don’t mean that!’

      So let me ask you one: Do you feel that in a state where minorities often have to wait in line _hours_, that it should be illegal to bring them food and drink?

      Is this one of the ‘in person voting requirements’ you’re okay with?

      What about requiring photocopies of ID for people who vote absentee? Is that reasonable? Considering a) almost no one has the ability to photocopy anything themselves, and b) places charge money for it and the government is not doing it for free, hence a poll tax, and c) it seems to serve literally no purpose at all as obviously the person in the ID cannot be compared to the voter.

      You’ve just handwaved ‘Things that are reasonable are fine, and I shall, in no manner, indicate what I think those reasonable things are’

      I guess here’s a sort of broad question: Imagine a hypothetical homeless person, and try to figure out how they would vote.

      Oh, sorta unrelated fact: Do you know you can’t get a PO box unless you own a car, or have a lease or mortgage or property deed in your name, or are registered to vote? Those are literally the only forms of ID they take as the _secondary_ ID…the primary one being a _ government-issued_ photo ID, so you need that too.

      But not _just_ a government-issued photo ID. No, you can board a plane with a US passport, and enter and leave the country…but not get a PO Box!

      Meanwhile, the requirements for getting a mailbox on property you live at are, as follows: Putting up a mailbox within certain parameters. That’s it. That’s the requirements.

      They can’t refuse to deliver mail to you…even if they refuse to make the _trip_, like if you’re the sole person a mile down a dirt road, they will make you put up the maibox on the road-right-of-way of someone else’s property on a public road. (And that person cannot object, that’s why it’s the right-of-way.) The Post Office cannot refuse to deliver mail to people with street addresses, but they can, and in fact _will_, deny people without street addresses a PO Box. (Unless you have a car, which is unlikely, or a voter registration card. Of course, registering to vote is _also_ impossible without a street address.)

      Why? Screw homeless people, that’s why!Report

      • InMD in reply to DavidTC says:

        I would say read the full comment. Especially the sentence immediately following the one you quoted:

        ‘To be clear, yes, some small amount of both inevitably happens, but I don’t think it’s impacting the results of our politics.’

        And I don’t. Yes, I suppose you’ve got some extreme outlier medical condition scenarios, and maybe there have been situations where someone like that has legitimately tried and not been able to vote due to the condition. Hopefully they can find a plaintiff’s attorney to help them out. For a clear-cut ADA violation you should be able to find someone to do it contingency.

        Also, no, I don’t believe the existence of lines, including long ones, or id requirements are per se disenfranchisement. I’m sure you could create hypotheticals where I would but we’d be debating edge cases and hair splitting, which brings me back to that other sentence.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to InMD says:

          Hopefully they can find a plaintiff’s attorney to help them out. For a clear-cut ADA violation you should be able to find someone to do it contingency.

          That’s your theory of how the government can violate someone’s rights? They can sue?

          Well, they _did_ sue, they won, there actually _is_ a law, and that is why people have a legal right to vote by mail if required for medical reasons.

          What a really silly reply.

          Also, no, I don’t believe the existence of lines, including long ones, or id requirements are per se disenfranchisement.

          You don’t think that _systematically_ creating lines in Black areas, and not white areas, even in otherwise identical places, is not disenfranchisement?

          You are acting like what is under discussion is _random_ lines, or _equal_ lines. But, no, voting lines are, completely unambigiously, always there for poor people and minorities, but not for wealthy. Always. There are no exceptions.

          And I’m not talking about ‘It is easier to waste time stand in line when wealthy’, which is an entirely different conversation about how wealthy people can afford that when poor people can’t. But we’re not even at that discussion yet, as wealthy people literally do not stand in line.

          https://www.gpb.org/news/2020/10/17/why-do-nonwhite-georgia-voters-have-wait-in-line-for-hours-too-few-polling-places

          Here a funline: Georgia law sets a cap of 2,000 voters for a polling place that has experienced significant voter delays, but that limit is rarely, if ever, enforced. Our analysis found that, in both majority Black and majority white neighborhoods, about nine of every 10 precincts are assigned to polling places with more than 2,000 people.

          Weird, huh? The Georgia Secretary of State office is literally breaking Georgia law by failing to provide enough polling places.

          And it’s important to realize, those ‘majority white neighborhoods’ are in still liberal areas. Places with tons of college kids, like Midtown Atlanta, or Kennesaw, or Athens. Or even slightly more suburban areas, who don’t have quite as much lines, but that’s okay, they don’t lean quite as far left, either. But more left than the rural areas who have literally no lines.

          I’ve vote in three distinct areas in my life. Downtown south Cobb, a majority Black area. Rural Northeast Georgia, the whitest of white areas. And suburban Forsyth, which is white-ish.

          Care to guess the voting times? First one, about 3 hours, second one, 0 seconds (Yes, literally no line.), and third one, about 30 minutes.

          The length of the voting lines in Georgia vote appear to be literally determined by the average pigmentation of the people in line, with maybe some slight inverse influence to wealth.

          And, and also in that article, written in OCTOBER 2020, points out: The growth in registered voters has outstripped the number of available polling places in both predominantly white and Black neighborhoods. But the lines to vote have been longer in Black areas, because Black voters are more likely than whites to cast their ballots in person on Election Day and are more reluctant to vote by mail, according to U.S. census data and recent studies.

          Yeah, excuseless mail-in voting, a little advertised obscure service that was slightly complicated to setup, was mostly used by whites before this year, just in case they happened to live somewhere where there were lines. That was the idea in October, when that article was written.

          But this last election…the government made it easier, and also Black people started using it en-mass. And other left-leaning people who cared about the risk of Covid.

          Whoops. Can’t have that. Gotta shut it down immediately. Georgia has had it for decades, but…no, it’s no good anymore.

          Stop pretending this is anything but deliberately malicious voter suppression.

          Here’s an idea to make it equal: However long the longest voter has to wait, 8 hours or whatever, that’s how long everyone has to wait the next election. They can’t vote quickly, we don’t want to cause more delays, but then they have to just stand around if their total waiting time didn’t add up to that.

          And they do have to stand the entire time. With no food or drinks brought by anyone, obvious.Report

  11. LeeEsq says:

    Democracy is a hot mess but better than the alternatives. When you limit the electorate than you tend to create a group of voters that confuses their class interest with the national interest. This is why Britain ended up with the corn laws or how the USSR was ruled by a party click of nomenklatura that was a nobility in all but name.Report

  12. DavidTC says:

    If we held a plebiscite on abolishing the death penalty today, the death penalty would be sustained.

    This is actually no longer true…again.

    Death penalty support went barely negative for a second in 1966, but then support continue to rise until 92 or so. It then dropped down until it hit about equal in 2000, where it hovered into 2016…

    …and then suddenly in 2016, Americans became very convinced that life imprisonment without parole was better than the death penalty, with that position reached 60 to 45 by now!

    Note this is one of the things that varies widely based on question: If you ask people about the death penalty existing _in general_, the majority favor it, and the majority also say it’s ‘not immoral’.

    But if you say ‘Which should we use, the death penalty or life without the possibility of parole?’, the majority choose the second.

    I’m not _quite_ sure what happened in 2016 to start changing people’s mind. (No, Trump doesn’t really make sense as an answer there.) And I don’t think its ‘We don’t like the death penalty’, considering the _other_ poll questions.

    I feel it is more ‘We can no longer be sure the death penalty is fairly applied’. Heh. Maybe it is Trump.

    So…you probably could get a vote to bar it in the US, as long as you barred it explicitly in favor of ‘life without the possiblity of parole’.

    Edit: Oh, that that ‘in favor of life without parole’ question was ‘which is a better punishment for murderers’. Which…is basically the only crime that ever gets death penalty, except child rape in some states. So…maybe _that’s_ what they think it should continue to exist for?Report

  13. superdestroyer says:

    Maybe the solution is to have laws so that dumb voters or dumb groups of voters are punished. If the U.S. had to function with a balanced budget then the voters demanding $5 trillion in government services would have to pay $5 trillion in taxes. The entire current debate on infrastructure would be very different is the entire costs would have to be financed with current year taxes. If voters had to pay full retail for their government instead of getting it at a huge discount, politics would work very differently.
    Redistricting would be better if a Congressional district could only received from the government what is paid in taxes.

    There are many ideas to ensure that the voters feel the direct impact of their decisions.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to superdestroyer says:

      Yea, like holding financial institutions responsible for their investing decisions. Right?Report

      • superdestroyer in reply to Kazzy says:

        Financial institutions are not voters. Maybe the voters did not understand the long term consequences of easy loans, inflating housing markets, and lack government oversight.Report

        • Philip H in reply to superdestroyer says:

          The well to do voters – the ones giving dark money to politicians of a certain stripe – understood all these things perfectly well. And they even got the Supreme Court to agree that money equaled speech so they could keep buying off politicians.Report