Citizenship at Leisure In The Ball Pit Republic
There is nothing new under the sun, just repeats and remixes, or — in the current vernacular — rebranding of what has always been. This is because while the sloganeering of concepts changes every generation, human nature by and large does not. So it is with such a concept and term as citizenship, from its early meaning as we understand it gestating in Ancient Greece to the modern ideas of participating in society. Being good modern Americans, we sloganeer the hell out citizenship while we tend concurrently to do very little of it.
This is not a new phenomenon. The American journey from citizenship meaning grabbing the family firearm to fend off the British to our current generation of citizening via your preferred electronic device has been quite the odyssey. “The average citizen must be a good citizen if our republics are to succeed,” Teddy Roosevelt told a bunch of French folks 110 years ago. “The stream will not permanently rise higher than the main source; and the main source of national power and national greatness is found in the average citizenship of the nation. Therefore, it behooves us to do our best to see that the standard of the average citizen is kept high; and the average cannot be kept high unless the standard of the leaders is very much higher.”
Oh God, are we in trouble.
We are in an era of politics where activity is mistaken for accomplishments, volume for importance, and folks who think “fighting” is the most important aspect in choosing avatars and allies. The folks who hold that last bit about fighting and praising folks who fight have really been having themselves a moment as of late. The more well read, or Google able, among them often quote from a section of that same speech by Teddy Roosevelt, a section called “Man in the Arena” (which the whole speech is often mistakenly titled as):
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
Stirring words, striking rhetoric, words that make you want to mount your Conan throne and declare what is best in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women…or something. Words that are often quoted, often referenced by folks who think the fight against the enemy is the highest calling of politics and cultural engagement. And they will cite that speech and Roosevelt’s words as the chapter and verse in their Gospel of Punishment Punditry.
Which means those folks completely missed the point.
Roosevelt’s speech contains “Man in the Arena”, but the title is “Citizenship in a Republic” and the 141 words of “Man in the Arena” aren’t the main point of the other 8700 words he spoke that day in France over a century ago. In fact, they aren’t even a main point; the “Man in the Arena” segment is actually just the setup to the ending of the first third of the speech. The bulk of the speech is a tour de force of roles of individuals in a society, the responsibilities of the privileged classes, and mostly about how division among classes was the disease that killed republics.
It is important to note in these words who is speaking them and who he is speaking them too. Roosevelt, a scion of privilege who none the less adapted “The Strenuous Life”, wrapped his entire personal and professional persona around a self-made, personally responsible brand of manliness, and proceeded to project that into his own brand of political progressivism. Whether physical or political, no one could accuse TR of not fighting, and such a man had all the moral high ground in the world to speak such words. Hearing those words was the elite of France and Europe. The invitation to speak at The Sorbonne in Paris meant the former president had the attention of one of the highest education centers in the Old World. The avatar for the New World was given carte blanche to speak on any topic he chose, and Roosevelt went with “Citizenship in a Republic“, reckoning that the republican form of government to be good common ground to speak to his French audience. Master politician that he was, Roosevelt was able to use his rugged American bone fides but still mold his message for an audience of academic and political elites.
But Teddy would have no time or patience for most of the modern folks using his words to flame throw on the interwebs. Latching onto the fragment on fighting without the longer treatise on personal responsibility not only misses the point, but is rather the problem with such shallow battle cries of “but he/she/it fights!!!” as some kind of incantation of importance without success in the first place.
That’s because, far from the arena Roosevelt spoke of and knew well from a lifetime in it, the modern-day keyboard warriors and political lightweights don’t really want to be those “whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again”. Far from the gladiatorial arena of TR’s painted picture, they actually strive for a field of battle much more modern, and contusive to their particular sensitivities. Contusive, as in the slightly injured without the breaking of skin or permanent damage. Something that requires lots of exertions, so you feel you are overcoming a struggle but a controlled enough environment so that there is little chance of actual damage to the participant.
Fortunately, adults of a certain age had just such an arena in their childhood, a consequence free arena in which to fight their perceived battles in “a safe, respectable place that played to current anxieties. The ball pit has always been a standard part of that.” Ah yes, the ball pit. The pinnacle of the “soft play” movement and brainchild of one Eric McMillan, an Englishman who moved to Canada and gained fame for trying to put a child-centric design into Expo ’67 in Montreal.
Due to his use of rubber, foam, vinyl, and plastic in playground designs, McMillan is often referred to as the “father of soft play.” As he told UPI in a 1975 interview, almost everything he built followed four priorities: economy, ease of maintenance, safety, and the child’s pleasure, in that order. Although McMillan prided himself on his ability to create playscapes that evoke a child’s sense of imaginative exploration, his priorities were rooted in practicality and safety.
The idea was letting kids play more safely, and let’s face it, ball pits are such a blast that the staple of childhood play is now an in-office perk pitched by Google and Facebook to the now-adults. But arenas they are not. While they might train children to problem solve and overcome an environment in a playful way, an adult is just recapturing childhood fun more than discovering something new.
So many folks think they are in the arena but in reality, at the first sign of pushback, of setback, of not getting what they want, they don’t adhere to the understanding that an arena is a combative thing of winning and losing but immediately begin demanding the rules be changed to their favor. That the walls of the arena be enclosed, the floor filled with balls, and the sharp and hard edges wrapped in padding to prevent any such occurrence from happening to them again. Not only that, but upon emerging from their new palace of play they expect applause and adulation not only for persevering but having the foresight to change the rules to their favor. “They fight” is an ethos that often doesn’t account for actually getting hit themselves, you see. That would be unfair. Only “them over there” should ever be hit, you see. That’s why we need nets in our ball pit arenas to keep the wrong kind of people out, they will explain.
They would do well to read the rest of the “Citizenship in a Republic” speech, of how a good citizen is efficient, one who can hold their own, one who is obsessed with not only their own freedom but the same freedom for others. Of being sensitive to class and occupations, and not making the mistake of using either as weapons of division, and how doing so means the one who wins such a contest won’t matter because “it made no difference whether the republic fell under the rule of an oligarchy or the rule of a mob. In either case, when once loyalty to a class had been substituted for loyalty to the republic, the end of the republic was at hand.”
The class of folks who demand we respect and provide for their ball pits of affirmation are neither elite nor the very poor that TR discussed. Most are somewhere in the middle, having gained some things in life but not enough to soothe their desire for more, and if they don’t check their passions, a perpetual aggrievement towards those who do have that desired level of wealth/success/power or who they perceive as impediments to them. Things like traveling to political rallies and boat parades, contributing to political causes, and other activities indicate at least some form of disposable income to dedicate to the proposition that all men might be created equal, but the citizens of the ball pit republic better get their equal first, or else.
Maybe instead of the “Man in the Arena” section of “Citizenship in a Republic,” those denizens of the ball pit republic should memorize a different section, one that is harder to digest but required nutrition for citizenship knowledge:
In a republic, to be successful we must learn to combine intensity of conviction with a broad tolerance of difference of conviction. Wide differences of opinion in matters of religious, political, and social belief must exist if conscience and intellect alike are not to be stunted, if there is to be room for healthy growth. Bitter internecine hatreds, based on such differences, are signs, not of earnestness of belief, but of that fanaticism which, whether religious or anti-religious, democratic or anti-democratic, is itself but a manifestation of the gloomy bigotry which has been the chief factor in the downfall of so many, many nations.
Of one man in especial, beyond anyone else, the citizens of a republic should beware, and that is of the man who appeals to them to support him on the ground that he is hostile to other citizens of the republic, that he will secure for those who elect him, in one shape or another, profit at the expense of other citizens of the republic. It makes no difference whether he appeals to class hatred or class interest, to religious or anti-religious prejudice. The man who makes such an appeal should always be presumed to make it for the sake of furthering his own interest. The very last thing an intelligent and self-respecting member of a democratic community should do is to reward any public man because that public man says that he will get the private citizen something to which this private citizen is not entitled, or will gratify some emotion or animosity which this private citizen ought not to possess.
In our current age, weak political parties are increasingly subject to bending to personalities that can arouse passions above whatever it is that individual proclaims over what the parties themselves ostensibly stand for. Arguments based off how passionate folks are, how many of them are, how many votes they can amass, how much power they can wield, should not be winning arguments to citizens who care about their country as a whole. If you lose the whole country in the end to the intramural politics, it isn’t going to matter which side wins. Your ball pit will not be safe in the post-American Republic world. In fact, it will be the first thing to go.
Better to be in the real arena — the arena of ideas — where it is hard and you will get your ego bruised, but the fight actually matters. Technology has given every single person the greatest chance in all of human history to make themselves heard, to fight their corner in the arena, to participate and not just spectate. “The good citizen will demand liberty for himself,” Teddy Roosevelt told the French elite so long ago, “and as a matter of pride he will see to it that others receive liberty which he thus claims as his own.”
If you really must fight and claim “he fights” as your ethos, at least fight for that. Citizenship is a great privilege and one worth fighting for, not only for yourself, but others. What shall you do with it?
TR often used the bally pull pit.Report
big stick was sitting right there waiting on you, MikeReport
I was expecting a Dashcon thread.Report
That deserves it’s own write up someday. Feel free to take it if you wishReport
Ha!
I’m pretty sure my meager writing and research skills couldn’t do Dashcon justice. It was — well — by the time I joined Tumblr (back in the day), the event was already a legendary imbroglio. In any case, anyone interested in the nitty gritty of when social media drama enters meatspace, Sarah Z has you covered: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPwgSXZJcokReport
Standing invitation my friend, on that or any other topic you wishReport
Thanks Andrew. I liked this.Report
Thank youReport
We are a nation of people devoted to profiting *at the expense of* our fellow citizens and anyone else who gets in the way. Thus we have our federal government, which morphed from one which was supposed to protect rights into one that taxes, regulates, and criminalizes in order to advantage one group over another. There are few good citizens left, fewer still who have any allegiance to the principles of limited government and individual rights upon which this country was founded. There is no realistic hope of avoiding the catastrophe our national greed for the unearned will bring; we should be looking to survive the coming tyranny, not wasting ourselves on efforts at changing our fellow man.Report
The very first sentence of the Constitution contains the words “promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity”. There is not a first person pronoun in the bunch.Report
I have no idea what your point is. 🙂Report
The rugged individualism that some think is written into the Constitution is a figment of someone’s imagination.Report
It’s important to know that the few good citizens left are all, of course, people who agree with my politics. Which aren’t even politics, they’re just common sense things smart people believe.
Whatever nonsense you’ve cooked up is politics, and you’re very un-American for believing it.
Anyways, while you’re parsing that I’m gonna go watch the party of small government and individual liberty focus on their new social agenda, which appears to be….making sure sports events are legally required to play the national anthem.
I’m a little confused by that, but surely forcing private citizens to sit through an act of enforced patriotism before a private event is….more freedom, like how it’s done in good old American North Korea.Report
A comment truly worthy of OT. As for me, I have to go out and fill in some potholes left by the recent thaw since my local government is loath to do it. Maybe Mr. Blake has a point.Report
I take it, then, that you haven’t read the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist papers, or much of anything else pertaining to the writing of the Constitution, that you don’t know why there is a Bill of Rights, and that your knowledge of American history has more than a few holes in it. I’m sorry for your ignorance, but I don’t intend to make it my life’s work to cure it. Good day.Report
I know how well those things were honored in the past, which saves me from thinking of today as a huge departure.
Other than riots to prevent vote-counting, That has been peculiar to 2000 and 2020.Report
But today *is* a huge departure.
As you note, America’s principles have routinely been more aspirational than actualized. Yet over time they *have* resulted in a broadening of who has rights and of the rights each person has.
What we have today is something contrary to that arc. We’re abandoning even the *aspirations* of individual rights and limited government. And without even that, there is nothing to move our society toward recognition of further rights–and nothing to keep it from slipping into authoritarianism and tyranny.
Those riots? Those aren’t a mere peculiarity–they’re a sign of the delegitimization of the processes that maintain and advance our rights. They’re a warning of what’s to come.Report
The rioters have been the people who claim to stand for constitutional, limited government, which is interesting, no?Report
Interesting only in the sense that their actions demonstrate that they have no idea what a republic is nor why, in a republic, you simply *don’t* use violence to reverse an election *even if it has been stolen*. These are fundamentally ignorant people, self-deluded by their need to believe in their messiah and self-deluded as to the meanings of the words they usurp. Except, of course, for the many grifters who batten on the corpse of the Republican party, who certainly know the truths they wish their marks to not see.Report
well aside from the fact that the Declaration of Independence was superseded by the Constitution and the Federalist Papers were written to encourage the adoption of Constitution . . . . They are really not the ruling documents. Hell it took over 230 years to get the Supreme COurt to declare there MIGHT be an individual right to bear arms under the Second Amendment – an amusing position written by an “originalist” who seems to have forgotten that “bearing arms” at the time of the writing was a distinctly military act.Report
I don’t argue with people who make up their own facts. Good day.Report
I mean unless you think the Declaration of Independence came after our current Constitution, it appears you’re the one who can’t handle basic facts.
Hint: The current US government is not even the FIRST US government that happened after the Declaration, as we set up the Articles of Confederation first and then adopted the current US Constitution considerably later, and with quite a bit of horse trading and lessons learned.Report
I don’t argue with the uncivil. Good day.Report
I read things like this and I think, birthright citizenship is not a good thing. One should not automatically gain all the rights and privileges of a citizen upon turning 18 simply because mom & dad were in the country at the time. One should have to make a conscious effort to gain citizenship. There is something about doing the work, and taking that oath, that adds value to the role.
Not for everyone, obviously, but for a lot of people…Report
UNLESS you are the right kinda white, right?
Kidding. I know that isn’t at all what you mean.
You have me thinking that an all-or-nothing approach to attaining citizenship may be best.
Like, a country needs to either embrace what you discuss here, wherein EVERYONE has to earn their citizenship OR citizenship is automatic for everyone within the borders of the nation at any time. The system we currently employ where there are 9000 different sets of rules and exceptions to rules and exceptions to exceptions just seems real cockamamie.Report
We need to figure out a particular line where you pay more in taxes than you take in services.
Like, everybody (even libertarians!) benefits from the roads. So everybody gets $3k worth of benefits from living in a state that has roads. Everybody gets this and that and the other. So take that amount and hold it up to the amount paid in taxes.
Is your number red? Not a citizen.
Is your number green? Citizen!Report
Oh, yeah, I can see all sorts of ways that gets gamed…Report
Maybe we can have tiers.
Red.
Orange.
Yellow.
Green.
Blue.
Indigo.
Violet.Report
Need to add infrared and ultraviolet.
Trust no one. Keep your laser handy.Report
Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk both being infrared, mocking Bill Gates for being yellow.Report
Speaking of Paranoia, I once GM’ed a Paranoia game. Anyway, we were playing one of the main adventures in the text, and the party had crash landed in the ocean and were all treading water. One of them rolled poorly and drowned.
Now, if you’ve ever played Paranoia, you’ll know that whenever a character dies, one of their clones is delivered to the location, thus the player can keep playing. It’s cool.
In this case, however, the replacement clones were delivered in a barrel fired from a cannon back at main base. So after the character died, this happened:
Me: You hear a loud boom far in the distance.
Them: We look around.
Me: A minute later you see a barrel descending toward you all. It must be {player A’s} clone.
Them: …
Me: It’s heading right toward you all, in fact toward {player B}.
Player B: I swim away fast.
Me: Roll.
Player B: Rolls poorly.
Me: The barrel lands smack on top of you, squishing you like a bug. Moments later {player A’s} clone emerges from the barrel, looking confused. Oh, and you all hear another boom in the distance.
Them: Fuck!
Paranoia — great game. Send in the clones.Report
I will be in the X-Ray, or perhaps Gamma tierReport
I agree!
(Note the higher frequencies are “better” in Paranoia.)Report
I like being associated with frequencies that can do real damage.Report
Hard to do it with individuals. Maybe we can use states as a proxy. Your state’s representation in the national councils, above or below a certain, necessarily somewhat arbitrary starting point, is adjusted up or down depending on whether your state is a net contributor to or taker from the national fisc.Report
In the abstract I hear you but I doubt there is a practical way to do it any other way. What it does do for me, at least, is it really shapes how I view other issues. Such as immigration specifically, where among the other messes of that issue we cannot even get a good handle and reform on making citizens and what that means which should be central to a sane immigration policy and reform.Report
I can hear folks now telling me I want to recreate Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie), and that isn’t exactly right, but it’s not exactly wrong either.
But you are correct in that as a practical matter, it’s not going to happen. Nobody wants to end birthright citizenship as it applies to current citizens (we know damn well that a lot of people want to end it for anyone just visiting or who is residing here illegally).
Even if we had a blank slate to start from, I’d have to think long and hard about how one would gain citizenship. Is it a test? Military/public service? An oath? combination thereof, or something else entirely?
Still, when citizenship is cheap…Report
Wrapped in all of this is also a question of what it means to be a citizen/have citizenship? What rights, privileges, entitlements, duties, and responsibilities are reserved just for citizens?
The thing about our birthright citizenship is that while it is cheap, it also has little in the way of duties and responsibilities, but quite a bit in the way of rights, privileges, and entitlements.
Right now, about the only duty there is, is “Don’t be a felon.” Should we have other duties and responsibilities? I guess we have a responsibility to vote, for what it’s worth. And another to pay taxes, which is actually enforced.
What about rights, privileges, and entitlements? Are there things that should be reserved to citizens, versus anyone who happens to live here? What if we had open borders and ended deportation? What would we limit to citizens versus residents? What if citizenship also meant you accepted a 90% marginal tax rate on all personal income and capital gains over and above a modest amount?Report
I think institutionalization of a praetorian class is inherently a bad idea. The question isn’t when it becomes ossified and seizes power and privilege for itself but when. We would end up with a lot of the same problems we have now and fewer avenues to do anything about it. The entitled idiots we have now could well end up being the citizens.Report
We already have something of a praetorian class that is institutionalized for all practical purposes.Report
Agreed. My point is I don’t understand what giving them extra rights and privileges does to help us, even if there are theoretically extra responsibilities. I think the reality of that ends up looking more like George W. Bush in the TX air national guard than a more selfless and beneficent ruling class.Report
Don’t make the responsibilities theoretical. Make them *ACTUAL*.
If you have met your responsibilities to the collective, you get a say. If you have not met your responsibilities, you enjoy freedom of speech in the freedom of speech zone.Report
I get the idea but I doubt the efficacy. It’s all based on the assumption that the elites have the honor to enforce the responsibilities against the other elites. When has that ever proved right over any sustainable length of time? Self-policing is a sham.
The whole idea sounds illiberal and authoritarian to me. I’m more of a bind them down with the constitution type than someone who wishes for supermen to lead us out of our decadent naval-gazing. And besides the tools are already there if people want to use them.Report
In my head, the extra rights and privileges come with a host of extra duties and responsibilities that currently don’t actually exist, or that can be weaseled out of.
Think of it in our modern military context. Officers have a lot of power, but attached to that power are some serious duties and responsibilities. Fail to meet those duties and responsibilities, and you not only lose the power attached, you may face criminal charges.
Our current praetorian class has all the powers, but no actual duties or responsibilities attached to it. We the people are expected to hold that class to account, but we very rarely can do it.
This is all a thought experiment, obviously, because there is no way to get there from here without seriously re-writing the constitution.Report
I hear you. For sake of the thought experiment though who holds the authority over the citizens? One of the features of the existing system is competing centers of power. They aren’t always good or consistent about holding each other accountable but they can, and they could do a lot more if we as citizens pushed them to.
Our military is able to operate the way it does now due to being under civilian authority. I also think the fact that it has become an all volunteer force does a lot to sustain discipline.
I also get the distinct impression that the discipline in the military is mostly reserved for the rank and file. I mean, how many people have had to fall on their swords over the last 20 years of failures in Iraq/GWoT? Maybe it’s happening in a way that isn’t cleaely visible to the larger public but you certainly don’t hear a lot about high ranking officers forced to resign or facing consequences.Report
Discipline in the military is maintained by JAG (they enforce the UCMJ), which top brass being held accountable by congress/POTUS.
As to your larger question, that depends on what permits one to become a citizen? Let’s make it simple:
-There are two classes, citizens and residents.
-Borders are open, no deportations.
-Citizenship is achievable through a variety of paths (service, education, etc.), but they all require some element of intention. You do not simply become a citizen, you have to work for it in some fashion.
-Citizenship is earnable only once. If you lose it, or relinquish it, you don’t get it back.
-Only Citizens can vote or hold public office (public office being elected or appointed officials, including police chief, etc.). With one exception (see below).
-Citizens are subjected to a much higher tax bracket, such that while citizens can earn enough to be comfortable, they can never be wealthy (I’d have to think about where that line is).
-Citizens have specific public duties they must attend to. Nothing onerous, but also not things that can be ignored (have to think about that as well).
-Citizens can not exclude themselves from laws, and are obligated to cooperate with public investigations (if the FBI knocks on your door, you can not tell them to piss off or evade questions whose answers won’t violate the 5th amendment).
-There is a broad swath of protective negative rights that covers anyone inside the borders (free speech, privacy, habeus corpus, etc.). Welfare benefits are also available. Being a resident does not mean you are simply a serf.
-Residents can petition for a vote of no confidence against any public official. If the vote clears 50+%, the official is removed from office. If the vote hits a super majority (66+%), the official loses citizenship.Report
I dunno man. Maybe we can try it when we colonize Mars. I have concerns about anything that would effectively disenfranchise so many. As many crappy sides as there can be to democracy it’s hard for me not to see it as an achievement of long, historical struggle.
Take your second to last bullet. If only citizens can vote, couldn’t they decide to eliminate the rights the residents enjoy without consulting said residents on the matter? Does the plan for taxation greatly exacerbate the situation we have now, where the costs of attaining power and obtaining rights is such that the already wealthy or subsidized enjoy enormous advantage in achieving it? Even eliminating the 4th amendment for citizens as suggested by bullet 8 seems like it would over empower law enforcement bureaucracies against leaders they don’t like for arbitrary or self-interested reasons.
Maybe I’d be more open to it if it was a requirement of everyone like military service is in some countries. Though even then I wonder if that sort of policy is more reflection of solidarity rather than cause.Report
Like I said, this isn’t something you can implement late in the game. It’s a clean slate kinda thing. And it would have to be installed as a very clearly written, foundational thing and very hard to change, or your point holds that a slim majority can alter the system to game advantage. I would hope that enough people from all walks of life would seek the franchise so as to avoid cohesive voting blocks from forming (which is why I said there would be multiple paths).
To your other two points, I’d have to flesh those out a bit more for you (I can if you’d like, but I was trying to keep it short).Report
Just to expand a bit, I think, in the US, we’ve replaced “citizenship” with “patriotism”. If you love your country*, or your government*, enough, you are a good citizen, regardless of how you interact with your country or government.
Patriotism is easy to do, and easy to indoctrinate. Good citizenship is much harder to teach and perform.
*For various values of country/government.Report
Patriotism is a performative value.
Citizenship is a participatory value.
Change my mind.Report
Nope, because I agree.Report
It’s really hard for me to imagine how that would work in a way that doesn’t turn out horrible. I fear very much we’d entrench a kind of two-tiered society, both de facto and de jure. Whatever system you put in place, what happens to ninth generation Americans who fail to make the cut? What about the developmentally disabled? Moreover, even if you make special provisions for the latter, where is the cut off line, and what happens to those who in practice fail to meet the standards, but who are not impaired enough to get the exemption?
Note, any argument made about how this could be done fairly and rationally — indeed perhaps it could. However, notice how we don’t allow any qualification tests for voting. There is a solid historical reason why. I fear any similar “citizenship requirements” would suffer the same fate, namely that those in power would design the test to ensure that “people like them” are valid citizens and “people unlike them” are not.Report
Yep. Like I said, a long and hard think, and even then, I would expect people to try and game and capture it for their own ends. Guarding against that would be challenging.
But then, as we’ve seen, even the easy system of birthright citizenship is not free from attack. And our naturalization process is such a complete mess for the very reasons you point out above.
Yet the problem of cheap citizenship remains.Report
I agree there is not way to gatekeep birthright citizenship that doesn’t end badly, or at least far worse than issues that come from birthright citizenship. I believe that is why you have to have a sane and viable citizenship path for immigrants, to keep a fresh stream coming into the country of folks passionate about being an American.Report
It definitely has a whiff of, “This works great as long as only the ideological pure people are in charge all the time.”
I can certainly recognize when something I want has potentially fatal flaws.Report
Maybe require federal service?Report
I felt your disturbance in the force.Report
Yeah, I should have read the rest of the thread first.
I think there’s a lot to be said for a year of national service at 18. Get away from school for a bit, learn some skills, live in the real world. If you grew up well -off, give a little back before you get a finance degree and start a hedge fund, but I’ve never though of tying citizenship to it.Report
“I read things like this and I think, birthright citizenship is not a good thing. One should not automatically gain all the rights and privileges of a citizen upon turning 18 simply because mom & dad were in the country at the time”
Well, for starters, if we’re gonna go down that little path we should probably figure out a way to avoid ending up with a lot of default stateless people who are living here. I mean…what to do with them? Kick them out? To where? Do they just live here with no rights at all?
it’d be like the homeless problem on steroids.Report
You’re right and it’s a fundamentally bad idea in a big country with our particular history. Yes birthright has challenges but I prefer it to something like the Gastarbeiter situation in Germany. You end up with generations of people who can’t quite assimilate but who you can’t quite expel because they have nowhere to go.Report
Voting literacy tests: a great idea whose time will never come in the US.Report
It wouldn’t change anything in a situation where so few contests are competitive to begin with.Report
My comment wasn’t based on expected results, but as a reply to Oscar and the original article about the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. Voting is the right of citizenship that we’re discussing, isn’t it? The responsible citizen’s most apparent responsibility is voting. If we can talk about standards for birthright citizenship, standards for voting seem more reasonable.Report
The most important effect would be in primaries, which are still contested in one-party districts.Report
Voting Literacy Tests – an idea used widely to disenfranchise freed black slaves during Jim Crow.
No thanks.Report
So were ropes, but we still use those because there’s nothing inherently evil about them and they serve a purpose better than anything comparable.Report
This is largely a myth. They didn’t use actual literacy tests, but rather extremely complicated tests that only black people had to pass. The tests were shams used as a pretext to exclude black voters. This would not be an issue with a nationally-administered test given to every voter and designed by a bipartisan commission of subject-matter experts.
Of course, due to the cognitive skills gap, any fair test would be failed disproportionately by black voters. Jason Brennan suggested race-norming, such that if x% of white voters pass, then the top x% of black voters and top x% of Latino voters are automatically passed. This is less than optimal, in that there would be white voters failing despite scoring higher than most passing black voters, but it would still be a huge improvement over the status quo.Report
I doubt you will find agreement that a test is “Fair” if a significant portion of the population is automatically set up to fail. And the effort to create statistical normalization would be better spent on closing the skills gap.
And frankly, IF we are going to begin discussing tests for voting, we get to discuss tests for gun ownership.Report
What’s always amusing is to see the vehement insistence that “White people are more intelligent!” juxtaposed with “We hates those tricksy educated elite!”Report
Cognitive dissonance manReport
Voting is not something “we” let people do because they are well-informed, smart, or otherwise likely to pick leaders and policies that are, by some standard, “good.” We let people vote because they are going to be subject to the leaders selected and the policies enacted, good or bad, and we have no other basis people consider broadly morally acceptable for subjecting people to such leaders and policies except that they had a say in picking them. People will not accept rule by an epistocracy, real or fake, and there is no reason they should. It is childishly easy to prove that large numbers of voters are ill-informed morons who will cheerfully select awful leaders. We have seen it done. So what? They, like those of us who like to think of themselves — possibly even rightly — as their intellectual or moral superiors, are adult citizens subject to the selected rulers and policies, so they get a say in selecting them, however infuriating their choices often are.Report
I haven’t disagreed with any of that.Report
That wasn’t addressed to you. Quite the opposite.Report
It’s not that I haven’t seen this spiel a hundred times before; I just think that it’s very poorly reasoned. By this logic, children should be allowed to vote. Not just late adolescents, but 5-year-olds as well. “[B]ecause they are going to be subject to the leaders selected and the policies enacted, good or bad, and we have no other basis people consider broadly morally acceptable for subjecting [children] to such leaders and policies except that they had a say in picking them.”
Of course, we don’t do that? Why not? Because children don’t have the critical thinking skills or knowledge needed to make informed choices about policies or even candidates. This is true of many/most adults, as well!
If you conceptualize voting as an individual right, like the right not to be imprisoned without trial, then it makes sense to make it universal. But the consequences of voting in a federal election are 99.9999997% (229,999,999/230,000,000) external. When very nearly 100% of the consequences of an action are external, it makes no sense to treat it as an individual right.
Consider driving. People have a right to move around, don’t they? So why do we require people to demonstrate the ability to drive competently before letting them exercise that right? Because of the negative externalities of irresponsible or incompetent driving. Incompetent drivers are a danger to themselves and others. So are incompetent voters.
Fundamentally, people care about outcomes, not policy. Voters who lack the ability or knowledge needed to think intelligently about what outcomes policies will produce cannot make an informed choice in the voting booth. Furthermore, a shockingly high percentage of voters can’t even meet the much lower bar of matching policies with parties; in the linked survey, about a third of voters did not know that Republicans are the anti-abortion party.
If people a) don’t know what outcomes policies will have, and b) don’t know which parties/candidates support which policies, then voting gives them no meaningful say in the kind of government they will have. You might as well give patients a say in their own medical treatment by letting them choose medicines based on the appearance of the pills.Report
The first rule for a method of selecting leadership is that the led find it broadly acceptable. Otherwise, out come the pitchforks and torches. In the modern west, no other system than broad-based election is broadly acceptable to the governed. The legitimacy of government, for us, rests on the consent of the governed, not on the expertise, information, wisdom, or virtue of the governed.
Presented with the choice to live under an epistocracy, the people will reject it. Do you deny this? Canny politicians, who run against educated elites, pointy-headed intellectuals, and the like, know it perfectly well, and campaign on that knowledge.
As for the votes for five-year-olds “argument,” it simply isn’t serious.Report
Why do the loudest yelps of elitism come from the drivers of Negro vote suppression?Report
You’d think that the conservatives would realize that you can be as segregated as California and be *PRAISED* for it if you just talk about the right stuff and not the wrong stuff.
BUT NOOOOOOReport
Hey look over there!Report
Let me get back to you complaining about the treatment of Black people in the… let me copy and paste your comment… oh my… maybe I won’t copy and paste it…Report
Is there a state in this Union where this situation doesn’t exist?Report
Are we asking “is perfection attainable in this veil of tears?” or are we asking “wait, what do you mean California is worse than Mississippi?”
Because if it’s the former, I have to concede that nobody’s perfect.
If it’s the latter, I can point you to this UCLA report on Brown at 60.
Now I’ll let Chip get back to pointing out how much moral standing he has to make his accusations.Report
The central core of Republicanism is hostility to ethnic minorities/ white male grievance.
“B-but California is segregated!”
True, but doesn’t change the fact that the central core of Republicanism is hostility to ethnic minorities/ white male grievance.
“Some liberals only give lip service to racial justice!”
True, but doesn’t change the fact that the central core of Republicanism is hostility to ethnic minorities/ white male grievance.
It doesn’t matter how much Whattaboutism or Tu Quoque or deflection and distraction or smoke screens are deployed, nothing changes the bare fact that that the central core of Republicanism is hostility to ethnic minorities/ white male grievance.Report
“Whataboutism” is a relatively new term and it’s interesting.
Imagine if I told Chip that he doesn’t have moral standing to judge people because he’s a cis-het white dude.
“Aren’t you a cis-het white dude?”
“That’s whataboutism!”
And now we’re arguing about whether it’s notable that the cis-het white dude is loudly saying cis-het white dudes have to not say things *OR* if it’s a race to be the first cis-het white dude to the mic.
If, in practice, the Democraticism we have (not the one we pretend to have) has discrimination IN PRACTICE that Republicanism can only dream of, suddenly we find ourselves wondering if the Democrats aren’t using the tactic that Chip outlined above:
We may have to start saying “No. Let’s look at the whole picture” instead of letting the first cis-het white dude to the mic be the one who defines what cis-het white dudes are allowed to notice.Report
We can stipulate any point you want to make about Democrats, but the point remains that the central core of Republicanism is hostility to ethnic minorities/ white male grievance.
If you aren’t able to concede that truth, then anything else is just a Gish Gallop.Report
No, a Gish Gallop is “I have the following 12 questions…” and then rapid firing off 12 questions.
This is a case where we have a trait that is surprisingly common not only among the Republicans but in Democratic Strongholds where being a Republican is seen as embarrassing.
And you’re yelling “LOOK OVER THERE!” and when people say “is that a beam in your eye too?”, your response is to accuse them of noticing the beam in your eye.Report
It occurred to me that you aren’t actually disagreeing with me.
The thing about Whattaboutism is that it doesn’t refute or even address the assertion:
“The sky is blue.”
“But whattabout the sea! Its blue!”
It has the look and feel of an argument, but it really isn’t one. It just repoints things in an entirely different and unrelated direction.
In this case, you have implicitly conceded the point, that yes, the central core of Republicanism is hostility to ethnic minorities/ white male grievance.
So ok, now that we have agreed on that, yes, lets talk about racism among Democrats and what we can do about it.Report
“So you’re not denying the speck in your eye!”
“No, I am not. But neither am I impressed by your moral insights, Doctor Plank. Physician, heal thyself.”Report
Again its important to note that you and I are not disagreeing on much here.
If, as we both agree, that racism exists in both parties in America, the logical conclusion of this is that racism is deeply embedded in all aspects of American society and culture, infecting all institutions, from government to the military , from schools to churches.
So it also logically follows that race relations, and how to heal them should be a dominant part of any policy discussion, from healthcare to banking, from zoning and land use to immigration, from policing to foreign policy.
News item:
Victims rights advocates launch recall effort against newly elected L.A. Dist. Atty. George Gascón
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-02-27/group-plans-to-launch-recall-effort-against-newly-elected-l-a-dist-atty-george-gascon
For those keeping track, Gascon is the newly elected district attorney for LA, whose victory was powered by the George Floyd protest groups and BLM.
He has vowed to bring about change and redress many of the structurally racist policies of policing.
Not surprisingly, he is fighting an uphill battle.
His opponents include not just Republicans, but some Democrats as well.
This issue connects to the struggle within the Democratic Party nationwide, between the progressive groups and mainline groups.
But the mere fact that there is a struggle within the Democratic Party highlights the other fact, that there is no symmetrical struggle within the Republican Party.
The Republican Party is 100% committed to maintaining the status quo of racial injustice which lead to the George Floyd protest.Report
His opponents include not just Republicans, but some Democrats as well.
In LA? I’m curious as to the ratio of Republicans vs. Democrats there.
Are the LA Republicans that much of a threat?
I sure hope the LA Democrats can overcome such a large number of opponents!
The Republican Party is 100% committed to maintaining the status quo of racial injustice which lead to the George Floyd protest
You should see what happens when people offer concrete reform proposals. Not just from Republicans, either!Report
The two leaders of the reform effort are Republicans from the outlying suburbs of LA.
You should see what happens when people offer concrete reform proposals. Not just from Republicans, either!
Uh..that was the whole point of my comment.
Any reformer has to fight the 100% of Republicans, and some percentage of Democrats as well.
That whole” racism is endemic to American society” thing.
No reform can succeed unless it first grapples with racism.Report
Huh, so there are two Republicans, you say?
I still don’t know the ratio of Republicans to Democrats in the area so I don’t know if that counts as insurmountable.
Maybe there’s only one other politician.Report
Exercise your google fu and prepare to be stunned.Report
Gil Cedillo – Democrat
Paul Krekorian – Democrat
Bob Blumenfield – Democrat
Nithya Raman – Democrat
Paul Koretz – Democrat
Nury Martinez – Democrat
Monica Rodriguez – Democrat
Marqueece Harris-Dawson – Democrat
Curren D. Price, Jr. – Democrat
Mark Ridley-Thomas – Democrat
Mike Bonin – Democrat
John Lee – Independent (Republican until 2020)
Mitch O’Farrell – Democrat
Kevin de León – Democrat
Joe Buscaino – Democrat
I got that from here and googled each name individually.
Not particularly stunned, really.Report
This is simple. You’ve made the claim, provide the evidence to support it. Link to the GOP platform(s) on their website that support your position.Report
I for one have said right upfront that I don’t see literacy tests ever becoming law. So I think you’re right that we prioritize voting over informed voting. But I think it’s fair to reconsider it.
I think you missed the point of Brandon’s argument about five-year-olds. You may find it unserious, but it’s the natural extension of your position. You should be able to state an intellectually consistent rule that covers your position but doesn’t include any obvious absurdities.
Or you could just follow Chip and make ad hominem attacks “without even arguing the points”.Report
Why do you think it is “fair” to disenfranchise people who have long had the vote, and are subject to the state’s laws and can be called upon to give money, labor, or other service to a state in which they have no voice, simply because someone doesn’t think they are well-enough informed?
I didn’t miss Brandon’s point about five-year-old voters, I dismissed it. The point is too silly to argue over, and if that isn’t obvious to you, nothing anyone can say will persuade you. But if you insist, you can probably tease out an argument from the previous paragraph. Maybe when we tax or conscript or jail five-year-olds, we should consider giving them a vote.Report
I doubt you will find agreement that a test is “Fair” if a significant portion of the population is automatically set up to fail.
Firefighters have to meet certain physical fitness standards, because that’s what doing the job requires. Because there’s a large difference in physical strength between men and women, on the order of two standard deviations, women will fail the test at much higher rates than men. This isn’t unfair, and women aren’t being set up to fail; it’s just that a greater percentage of women than men lack the strength necessary to perform all of the job’s responsibilities.
And the effort to create statistical normalization would be better spent on closing the skills gap.
Huh? No effort is required to race-norm a test. It’s trivial. It’s basically what colleges already do with affirmative action. Meanwhile, tremendous amounts of effort and money have been poured into trying to close the cognitive skills gap over the past several decades. An intervention that can close the racial skills gap is the holy grail of educational research. “Why don’t we just close the skills gap?” is like asking “Why don’t we just use nuclear fusion?” We’d love to, but nobody knows how.Report
Question #1: Who won the 2020 Presidential Election?
A. Joe Biden
B. Donald Trump
Question #2: What is an effective treatment for Covid virus?
A. Bleach and ultraviolet lights in the rectum;
B. Fluids, rest, and medication prescribed by a physician
Question #3: What causes hurricanes?
A. Butt sex;
B. Low pressure systems
No Republican could ever vote again.Report
If you had to guess, how many unarmed Black men were killed by police in 2019?
A about 10
B about 100
C about 1000
D about 10000
E more than 10000Report
A. But everyone who has looked at it says the Post data base you allude to is flawed and likely undercounts.
That aside I’m not sure what your question has to do with being a “good citizen” and therefore being allowed to vote.
Never mind that the Constitution is pretty clear (beginning in Article 1 and continuing in the 14th and 15th Amendments) that citizens get to vote. Period. There’s no test after that, and the imposition of such tests during Jim Crow was not only immoral but unconstitutional.Report
It was a reference to the recent Skeptic survey. It’s been in the news. Chip wants to say that conservatives couldn’t pass a reasonable test, I’m citing a survey showing that liberals can’t.Report
Tax cuts:
1. Decrease revenue
2. Increase revenue
3. Are one of the Ten CommandmentsReport
Never mind that the Constitution is pretty clear (beginning in Article 1 and continuing in the 14th and 15th Amendments) that citizens get to vote. Period.
Literally none of this is true. Article I leaves voting eligibility up to the states. The 14th Amendment does not prohibit restrictions on voting, but does reduce population for apportionment purposes in proportion to the percentage of males over 21 who are denied the vote for reasons other than having committed a crime. On the other hand, the Supreme Court has ruled that literacy tests do not trigger that, though I’m not sure I follow the logic. The 15th Amendment only says that the right to vote may not be restricted on account of race. At that time, there was no Constitutional requirement that women be allowed to vote, which is why the 19th Amendment was needed for that.
There is nothing in the Constitution that says that all citizens must be allowed to vote, the most obvious counterexample being minors; it also explicitly allows disenfranchisement of criminals. There are only prohibitions on specific reasons the right to vote can be denied (sex, race, and age requirements cannot be higher than 18).
To this day, there’s nothing in the Constitution actually prohibiting literacy tests; those were upheld by the Supreme Court and then banned by legislation. The apportionment penalty might apply, although there might be a loophole there, if states passed a law that failing the test were a crime with no punishment other than losing the right to vote, maybe that would work.Report
Without even arguing the points here, I just want to point out how well this illustrates the current state of the conservative soul.Report
And you’re illustrating the current state of the liberal soul by not arguing the points.Report
I don’t know why conservatives get so angry at the people who point out that they don’t want people to vote.
Direct your anger at the Republican legislatures all around the country who are trying to restrict voting.Report
I don’t want low-information voters. Accuse me of that all day long.Report
thats funny. A conservative who doesn’t want low information voters . . . who tend to vote for Republican and conservative candidates . . . who won’t be barred from voting by any of the measures Republicans are seeking to impose in relation to the just completed election. I don’t have enough time to unpack all that cognitive dissonance.Report
Even taking the statement at face value, it perfectly illustrates the conservative ethos, that some people matter more than others.Report
Well, if you don’t have *time* to unpack the cognitive dissonance, I should just assume you could. Just like above (and once again here) where Chip is more interested in what he thinks a position says about a person, “without even arguing the points here”. From now on I should treat lack of rebuttal as proof of time constraint.Report
“I have a truly marvelous demonstration of this proposition which this combox is too small to contain.”Report
Like people who think the election was stolen? Me too, and there are some great proxies that make them easy to target.Report
You couldn’t make it 24 hours with the assertion that liberals know facts better than conservatives. And why not? Because, bless Ben Shapiro’s little heart, the facts didn’t support your feelings.Report
It’s so funny that Ben Shapiro, of all the disingenuous, hyper-partisan pieces of garbage in the world, claims to worship facts.Report
I reported a couple of comments by Chip and Philip above, and I want to elaborate on why I did this: I think that this kind of content-free attack is profoundly toxic to the level of discourse.
Philip made some claims that were patently false. I gave a detailed explanation of why they were wrong, and the response I got was self-righteous spaghetti-flinging.
When I see something like this, I am, in the short-term, tempted to sink to their level and respond in kind. In the long term, I’m less inclined to do this kind of substantive analysis here in the future. Why throw pearls before swine?
Lately I’ve been participating in a different forum that has much stricter rules about low-effort spaghetti-flinging, and the quality of discourse is much higher, even better than it was here in the old days.
Not to say that I’ve never been part of the problem myself, I like to think I’ve been doing better recently, but this kind of thing makes it hard. I think we should all aspire to be better than this.
I’m reporting this comment myself for mod visibility.Report
Well, I hope you lower your standards and hang out here more. This thread has been fun.Report
My regular hangout is twitter, which is notorious for the poor quality of its discourse. My solution to this problem is simple: Any person who can’t manage civility and basic rationality gets blocked. I don’t give second chances, and I don’t feel the slightest angst over the possibility that I might have missed something valuable because of my blocks. As I often put it: For every asshole or fool with an opinion worth hearing, there is a civil and sensible person with the same opinion. There’s a whole world of information out there and my basic problem is not getting to it, it’s how to avoid drowning in it.
I regularly read two publications, Reason and this one. I don’t even look at the Reason comments; they’re a cesspool and there’s no practicable way to filter them. Here is another matter.
I had hoped that the high quality of this publication would result in a high quality of comments. While it is true that the quality of comments here is better than average, I wouldn’t call it *high* quality. For that, I’m going to have to filter. Fortunately, I *can* filter because this site does email notifications. And I do.
So, when Slade the Leveller and Philip H produced fact-challenged, uncivil responses, into the filter they went. When JS produced his uncivil snark, into the filter he went. I won’t see notifications of their comments or of replies to their comments, and I’m unlikely to simply run across their comments.
Trouble is, of course, that though this leaves those three talking into their colons as far as I’m concerned, it leaves everyone else exposed to their toxicity and to reciprocal toxicity, with the attendant consequences for the quality of discourse here. And there are really only two solutions to that. Either the bulk of readers make a real effort to not engage them–as in, Do Not Feed The Trolls–or the owners of this site articulate a standard for discourse and take an active hand in enforcing it.
I do not report inappropriate comments. The very presence of significant amounts toxic behavior implies that the owners of this site are willing to tolerate it. There’s no point in making reports that will just get ignored!
Which means that it falls to us, the commenters, to police–not the toxic posters–but *ourselves*. If a Philip H posts something that is fact-free, *don’t engage*. You should, as I did, note the fact of the comment’s vacuity and, if it should prove that he has a pattern of valueless comments, note the pattern as well.
And then, having put up your “Beware Of Troll” sign, *walk away*. Trolls and their brethren *exist* for feedback; their *need* is for the validation that comes from manipulating and abusing others. Take that away and they either learn better behavior or they go looking for better hunting grounds.
Trolls and the like are at best borderline sociopaths. It really doesn’t bother them that their behavior pollutes the intellectual environment. They really don’t care about being respected. They enjoy the distress they induce in others. They regard those they interact with as *prey* and the forums they inhabit as their *feeding ground*. Understand this, and it becomes possible to minimize their impact. Ignore this, and the problem will just get worse.Report
Oddly enough, this comment goes back to the original subject of good citizenship. We may have freedom, but we need to exercise responsibility.Report
Indeed. It’s the same issue, just on a smaller scale.Report
Would exercising responsibility include not continuing the Big Lie that incited the riot at the Capitol and holding the liar-in-chief responsible?Report
Let’s go kill giant bugs in space! Birthright citizenship works because anything else will devolve into less democracy and more aristocracy. Citizenship for all, based on birthright protects the most.Report
There are lots of things to unpack here. First, by the time of this speech, the real centers of elite education would have been the ecole superiors. The idea that division among the classes is a disease is a nice concept but it can also be code for “know your place.”.
There is a strange ideal in the US to have a society without ideology or politics. Everyone working for some very vaguely defined commongood. To me, this often seems like it is an attempt to make everyone good worker bees because strife is not good for the bottom line.Report
Oh I don’t know – strife among the lower classes seems to be quite profitable these days.Report
Citizenship matters less than the concept of a free state.
Internet flamewars won’t change what happens when the church of ability picks up the blade and starts the harvest.Report
Don’t I wish. But destruction is always easier than creation, and our government and the idiots who lack ability are all too good at destruction.Report
Define “ability.”Report
https://ordinary-times.com/2021/02/24/citizenship-at-leisure-in-the-ball-pit-republic/#comment-3450447Report
CPAC has decided to bring out a golden calf, er golden statute of Trump this year.Report
I mean they played Fortunate Son for Trump rallies.
Like….is this all performance art? Did someone lose a bet — or is trying to win one?
I mean there’s tone deaf and then there’s….this.Report
Report
There are some people who think/”joke” the NY Times Sunday Styles section is run by secret Marxists who are trying to act as catalysts for the revolution. I tend not to think this. In general, people seem to pay zero attention to song lyrics.
The golden calf thing is sincere I think but it is also identical to a piece of performance art/satire that would be produced by a left-wing group. Poe’s law is a harsh mistress.Report
The Biblical punishment for that is to wander in the political wilderness for 40 years, isn’t it?Report
And this is the social conservative Christian party… the mind boggles.Report
There are about five different fallacies of composition and division in your comment. CPAC isn’t “the social conservative Christian” party. Actually it is a party, but more the STD kind.Report
Right, no one at CPAC has ever blathered on about how the GOP are the ones defending the American Christian heritage, and there’s nothing laughably hypocritical about that idol to their god-king.Report
If ya wanna try and make the case for substantial seperation between the Republican Party and the membership of CPAC go right ahead. I think it’d be a very challenging case to make.Report
The GOP is a bunch of bootlicking hacks that censure anyone who dares criticize their golden god-king, while CPAC is a bunch of bootlicking hacks that simply don’t invite anyone who dares criticize him. Completely different.Report
Hold it, do you think that people who eat, sleep, and breath politics think like the average person? That there isn’t a personality quirk or two in a guy who stays up all night drinking tequila and debating tax reform? I mean, is the average Netroots attendee like the average Democrat?Report
I’m told that twits on twitter represent the left in its entirety. That doesn’t seem at all plausible to me.
CPAC includes among its attendees’ huge numbers high ranking current and former, elected and appointed members of the GOP past and present including the party’s’ most recently elected President. To claim that CPAC is not representative of the GOP strikes me of as a much harder lift.Report
I just read a piece that said one of the speakers at a CPAC session started in on a election fraud rant and the streaming service carrying the session broke in in some fashion and said there was no known evidence of fraud and people should consult other sources as well.
I assume fear of Dominion and Smartmatic at work.Report
That is fascinating.Report
My guess has been that CPAC got letters from the lawyers for both Dominion and Smartmatic, saying that CPAC should keep good records because the subpoenas will be coming.
I admit to a certain amount of interest in what private citizen Trump says today. It seems inevitable that he will talk about stolen elections; I wonder if he will have the sense to not accuse Dominion and Smartmatic.Report
I agree. My money is on him not mentioning their names at all.Report
CPAC traditionally holds a presidential straw poll each year. From 2013-2015, Rand Paul dominated it. In 2016, it was Cruz followed by Rubio (although admittedly there was some backlash against Trump because of his last-minute cancellation). Would you say that Rand Paul devotees match the center of the GOP?Report
The center of the GOP median voter? No, I would say they don’t. The center of the GOP median leaders or policy makers? Yes, I’d say they do.
If we look at what policies Trump actually substantively enacted in his term rather than the ones he bloviated about; a huge deficit funded tax cut heavily weighted to the wealthy; wholesale deregulation- especially environmental deregulation and ensconcing Heritage Foundation judges in the vacancies Mitch has been stoking for cycles; I don’t see any that wouldn’t suit CPAC Randians down to their toenails.Report
On those three issues there would probably be a lot of agreement. But you left out foreign policy, trade, and immigration, where there would be a lot more tension. You left out the overall size of government and the imperial presidency, where they’d be completely opposed. They’d mostly support his confrontational rhetoric, but they’d be livid at his failure to do much of anything on education. Guns, drug legalization, and the surveillance state are huge issues to more than a handful of them.
Were tax cuts, environmental deregulation, and originalist jurisprudence really his three biggest actions? I think his rhetoric, nationalism, and coronavirus policy will get bigger entries in the history books.
Getting back to the point, CPAC actions, rhetoric, and attendees are consistently going to be different than the GOP. You have to realize that CPAC’ers are policy junkies who have strong opinions on all kinds of things. They’re also showmen who would probably sacrifice a goat in front of the golden Trump statue if they thought it would bug more liberals than it would alienate allies.Report
I left those policies out because I don’t consider them substantive and lasting. Trumps moves on immigration were entirely executive based and Biden is going to basically erase them like they never existed if he’s so inclined to do so. Likewise, on foreign policy Trump didn’t really change anything that Biden cannot reverse if he chooses to; a slightly more belligerent tone and a holding pattern on foreign adventurism (without much real drawdown). Same with trade. Nothing was changed that can’t be just as easily reversed with a stroke of the pen though on foreign policy I certainly hope Biden has enough wits to not indulge in any new messes.
As to size of government and the imperial presidency the CPAC crowd has demonstrated by their actions and choices, when they were in a position to actually choose and act, that they consider those policies massively distant second or third tier concerns; policies they give lip service to at best but don’t spend any effort on. Frankly the only thing anyone should do when conservatives start talking about size of government, deficits or the imperial presidency is check their wallet (or maybe laugh).
I’m certainly well aware CPAC are political junkies who are often in favor of something simply because it “triggers the libs”. The gap I think you’re overlooking in your analysis is demonstrating that the GOP differs from the CPAC crowd in that regard. If you exclude Judges, coddling plutocrats and triggering the libs what really is left in a summary of the GOP behavior in the last cycle in power or so?Report
“the CPAC crowd has demonstrated by their actions and choices, when they were in a position to actually choose and act” – That’s begging the question. You’re saying the CPAC crowd is the same as the GOP, and you can prove it because the CPAC crowd was in power when the GOP was in power, because they’re the same people. Likewise, in your third paragraph you say that the GOP taunts libs because the CPAC crowd taunts libs and they’re the same people.
You also say in your third paragraph that judges, coddling, and taunting are the only things that the GOP does, but that’s because you said in your first paragraph that you’re not counting things that can be undone easily. But we weren’t talking about whether something can be undone easily, we were talking about whether the policies *and attitude* espoused by CPAC matches the policies and attitude espoused by the mainstream GOP.
You say “Frankly the only thing anyone should do when conservatives start talking about size of government, deficits or the imperial presidency is check their wallet (or maybe laugh).” But there you’re conflating conservatives and the GOP governance. But it’s exactly those think-tankers and activists who are the difference. They’re the ones who are out there talking about those issues. The leadership (or rather any elected official) isn’t acting on those things because they may fit a purity test, but they don’t get you reelected.Report
My point is that the only things the GOP, in power with a trifecta, enacted into durable policy are things that CPAC would agree with in lock step. All the things where CPAC and the voting masses of the GOP would disagree on, were given lip service at best but no political capital was spent on them to enact them into a policy position that couldn’t be erased the moment a new Democratic administration entered office. If the GOP in power only substantively does things that CPAC wants and sidelines things CPAC doesn’t like that is a pretty strong argument in favor of the assertion that CPAC is pretty representative of the GOP (at least on the leadership level).
Conservatives have had 20+ years to prove they’d do something, anything, to pressure their party on size of government, deficit or imperial presidency matters. Instead, their party has gone in the opposite direction whenever they were in power and conservative thought and opinion on that matter has consisted of muted grumbles, at the most, and in many cases Laffer curve make believe or blatant “it’s ok so long as Republicans do it” hypocrisy. Who really thinks conservatives (as opposed to true believer libertarians) genuinely care about those things? It barely even looks like conservatives believe it, let alone anyone else. But I digress.
The Republican Party has only stuck its neck out, in the past decades, for things that the CPAC crowd likes. CPAC is packed to the gills with Republican Party leaders both present and past. I still don’t see how one can seriously assert that there’s much space between the GOP and CPAC. That there’s space between the GOP/CPAC and the voting masses who empower them is inarguable- I dare say it’s one of the foundations of the remarkable political drama that exists in this country. But between the GOP and CPAC? I don’t really see it.Report
“CPAC is packed to the gills with Republican Party leaders both present and past.”
The thing is, you know that Mike Lee will be there and Mitt Romney won’t. You know that with certainty. I could rattle off 10 names that we both know and you’d be able to guess whether 9 of them were attending. Are there any surprises? Well, I would have guessed Nikki Haley attending. And Marco Rubio – wait, I just rechecked the list, and he’s going to be there. But you know the list: Scott Walker yes, Paul Ryan no, Kevin McCarthy yes, Mitch McConnell no, Josh Hawley yes, Thom Tillis no, Dan Bongino yes, Rod Dreyer no.Report