October 7th was the straw that broke the camel's back among Israeli Jews. The basically believed, rightly or wrongly, that they have been putting up with a lot of nonsense from Hamas and Hezbollah for a long time even after their withdrawal form Gaza and two attempts at a negotiated end to the I/P conflict. Now they want Hamas and Hezbollah gone for good or at least neutarized.
I think to a lesser extent, October 7th was the straw that broke the camel's back among Diaspora Jews as well. Seeing these activists out and about celebrating the death of Jews on a mass level was deeply vile. The antics of the Pro-Palestinian protestors and the sheer amount of anit-Semitism coming from them was deeply enraging. So we want them to shut up.
@Philip H, now do this with the Israeli government doesn't fight the Settlers because of internal political reasons and see how reasonable it sounds to you.
Theoretically if Israel withdraws from the West Bank and even the Golan Heights and they because launch pads against Israel like Gaza and Lebanon did, than what? How much is Israel supposed to deal with?
See Dark Matter's point above that this won't end if Israel withdrawal from territory only leads to more violence against it. This has happened in both Lebanon and Gaza. Even if you assume that Netanyahu is a bastard, I think the average Israeli has enough experience to believe that a withdrawal from the West Bank won't end the violence against them but increase it. That really isn't conductive to even a cold peace if the Palestinian and Islamist dead enders are going to be allowed to be violent in perpetuity with no retaliation forever.
DavidTC and Chris believe they can cleverly move the goal posts all the time so that Israel has always done something wrong. This is because deep in their hearts they really want the answer to be "No Israel, No Jews" too.
Palestinians complied with what they were supposed to do? Really? Arafat was playing a double game for the entire Oslo Process and Hamas ignored Oslo entirely and started their terrorist campaign right away. After they actually got some territory, they turned it into an armed camp.
It's rather quaint that a politician is under scrutiny for a very old fashioned sex scandal in this day and age. Like maybe in the aughts and earlier, I can see a politician's porn habits sinking them. But today? With porn as widespread as it is? That seems weird even in a red-leaning state like North Carolina.
There seems to be a lot of people that want but will not say the following to happen.
1. Israel agrees to the creation of a Palestinian state with maximum generosity and zero suspicion.
2. Israel ignores the rocket barrages and terrorism from the Palestinian dead enders and Islamists with grace and a stiff upper lip to keep the region stable and not a source of trouble for developed democracies.
3. Jews in general and Israeli Jews in particular wait patiently for the Palestinians and other Muslims to get whatever is in them out of their systems.
There seems to be a big part of the world that is willing to sacrifice Israel and the Jewish people in the name of pragmatics but doesn't want to exactly say this.
As mentioned to Jaybird, LGM had a big argument yesterday over Israel's operation. The idealists were aghast because of the civilians were injured or killed but more people than usually thought that this is actually a better way to go after terrorists than bombing because it minimalizes the damage to the extent possible. It is basically an argument between no civilian should be hurt ever and civilian casualties should be avoided but war is messy and Hezbollah started this by intervening when they did not have to.
These sorts of operations take months or years of planning. They are currently useless if you decide not to pull it off. Yes, they might not necessarily work but you need to try. One thing that might make it work is that Hezbollah already believes that "the Demon Jew is out to get you" and all sorts of Elders of Zion type conspiracy theories, Muslim edition. This operation plays on that and must seriously spook them.
The other blog is strangely divided about this more so than it ever was during the Israel-Hamas War. People who were generally critical of Israel during the Israel-Hamas War remain so and are calling it a war crime and targeting civilians but other posters, more so than usual, are arguing that Hezbollah had no reason to fire rockets into Israel and this sort of operation is a much better way to handle terrorists than bombing them. Yes, civilians might still get injured or killed but less so than by aerial bombing. It is basically a pure idealist vs. realist fight with about half and half on each side.
I have yet to hear anybody defending Hezbollah articulate a believable reason for Hezbollah to be allowed to continue rockets into Israel. Rockets that killed, check notes, 12 Druze children. My basic theory is that people who consider Israel and ipso facto illegitimate state just believe that Israel needs to endure this with a stiff upper lip or that they believe the following approach should be taken but will not say it:
1. Israel agrees to the creation of a Palestinian state.
2. Israel endures the dead enders and Islamists with grace and a stiff upper lip.
3. Israel and the Jews world wide wait patiently for centuries as the Muslims get modernity through their systems.
The best of them just want to change the dynamic and believe that basically only Israel can do this for whatever reason they won't say. I generally assume it is because they aren't that sympathetic to Israel and also believe that Israel/Jewish population is small enough to be more easily pressured.
The debates on LGM over the I/P conflict seem to revolve around the people who take what the Palestinians and Muslims at least slightly serious and those that go "oh, nobody can believe that" and all this theocratic talk is about their oppression.
Many people did not want to take the Vance types seriously for a long time. Even during Trump's first impression, there was a minor version of the "oh, nobody can be that bad or believe in this ridiculous stuff" that I noted exists above when it comes to Islamic theocratic beliefs.
That is a big part of it but not all of it. The problem with liberals or liberalish people is that the alternative to the secular developed democracy liberalish lifestyle seems so utterly bonkers and unpleasant that they can't imagine anybody rejecting it for any reason. It doesn't make sense with TradCath converts like Vance does it or if the the Taliban does it. Nor can these people be sincere in their beliefs and have to be doing it for some other reason.
I think a lot of my fellow Jews are going to get hurt a lot because of this and much of what we have built will be destroyed. Many liberals are useless enough when dealing with white anti-Semites from the right because they can't quite get Jews as an oppressed people or really being in danger in their head space. The imperatives of liberalism make them worse than useless when dealing with other anti-Semites.
It doesn't help that white liberals and leftists seem incapacitated when dealing with anti-Semitism from non-Whites or people who code non-White because of the imperative not to seem racist ever. You saw this when the issue of anti-Semitism in the Women's March or with Kayne West came along. Having to write about it seemed physically painful with the Vox set. They are even worse with Muslim anti-Semitism for the same reason. They just can't do it.
I definitely agree with the hidden economics thesis to as part of the endless inability for the Palestinians and other to decide on another source of action. The UN agencies and International Caring Community have been subsidizing the defiance of the Palestinians for decades but pointing out the best thing for the Palestinians would be to cut of their money supply to make them reach a decision seems cruel. Chances are that other Muslims will rush in to fill the avoid anyway.
The true believer issue is antoher problem becasue very few people seem interested in a direct confrontation with them besides Israel and Diaspora Jews. This goes beyond making peace. We Jews aren't really that much into evangelizing and making others follow our way but you have tens or hundreds of millions of people who can't stand Jews doing Jewish things world wide even when we spend our own money on them. It is simply too much for them to bear. The anti-Semites of all stripes are aware that they outnumber Jews by a considerable margin and nobody else wants to grab them firmly by the arm, tell them that they are ridiculous, and break their bones to get them to stop. Therefore, the Jew haters never stop by they white or of color or Christian or Muslim or anything else.
To take this more broadly, there seem to be certain liberal imperatives that prevent the small broad small-l coalition from realizing that different types of illiberals might be serious about what they believe no matter how much they say it or what actions they take. The usual response whether it is from a fascist in the West or an Islamist or a Hinduvata nationalist or whatever else is "oh, nobody can really believe something that ridiculous" and "these things are just ways for so and so to maintain power by fear and terror" or if sympathetic to the illiberal, "poverty and oppression are driving these beliefs and once those go away they will become eusocial liberals." The idea that people can really believe in ridiculous things and in large numbers is just treated as an impossibility.
Here is a thing that I really don't understand. The Palestinians along with many other Muslim majority countries from Morocco to Indonesia and from Kazakhstan down to whatever the southern most Muslim majority country in sub-Sahara Africa has have made it clear that close connections between Islam and state are important to them even if the non-Muslim population is very substantial like it was in Sudan before South Sudanese independence, Nigeria, and Malaysia. They aren't exactly shy about their overwhelmingly Islamic orientation in those places complete with laws against blasphemy and apostacy. Most state symbols are Muslim and Islam appears in the official wording somewhere.
There are a lot of well meaning Westerners that simply seem to refuse to get this. All the clear statements from the Palestinians and other Muslims of "we want Muslim Palestine" gets scrambled in the heads into "we want multicultural rainbow Palestine" despite a lot of easy to find statements that show the exact opposite. As mentioned previously, there is Pro-Palestinian propaganda on social media that depicts Tel Aviv as a "Palestinian" city. But whenever this gets pointed out, and no matter how much evidence is presented, it gets dismissed as Islamophobia. It is like certain imperatives in liberalism just prevent Westerners from dealing with all the extremely obvious to Jews anti-Semitism among Muslims or how utterly dominate Islam is.
You have no idea how utterly vile I and many Jews find it that the people who were out and about celebrating 10/7 as an act of "kinetic decolonization" are wailing and wailing about the Palestinians in Gaza or the people in Lebanon. They have agency as well. They can actually try a different approach than "Israel is just one more glorious push to the sea." Instead they have not done that. I have seen Pro-Palestinian propaganda in my feed that tries to present what is clearly Tel Aviv as a "Palestinian city." I've seen this for pre-state Tel Aviv and 21st century Tel Aviv.
The Palestinians and other Muslims have been saying "No Israel, No Jews" and that the entire thing is an Arab Muslim state connected to other Arab Muslim states for decades before I was born. People in the West seem not to be willing to believe that they might be serious about this and really, really mean it. Instead the burden is always placed on Israel and the Jews to reach out and make peace.
Several hostages have been found recently. I find the idea that Israel should just give up the ghost about hostages very disturbing. I don't think you understand how much 10/7 was the straw that broke the camel's back not just for Jews in Israel regarding Hamas and Hezbollah but with Diaspora Jews and Further Left determined to go more and more into open anti-Semitism. Like there are many people who seem to believe and not say the following:
1. Israel should agree to the creation of a Palestinian state with maximum generosity and zero suspicion.
2. Deal with Palestinian dead enders and Islamist terrorists with grace and a stiff upper lip.
3. Jews should control our crazies but the Muslim responsibility to control their crazies is zero.
4. Wait for things to be better.
There is a lot of arrogance and anti-Semitism towards the Jews in that part of the World and Western liberals seem utterly unable to deal with it. The imperative not to sound Islamophobic is so strong that they simply can't comment about all the anti-Semitism among Muslims. Jews are just given the entire burden of doing everything to create peace in the I/P conflict and good Jewish-Muslim relations.
Chris for one thing on this blog. Lots of people on LGM are crying that this is terrorism while others are defending it as basically the best possible way to deal with terrorism because it hurts less than bombing Hizbollah areas in Lebanon. Lots of the very online.
Have you ever considered that a lot of them are being very serious with their metaphysical understanding of the conflict and they really see Israel's existence as a blot on all of Islam?
This sort of very targeted response is what people wanted Israel to do after October 7th. But when Israel actually does this very targeted response, it is "no, no, not like that."
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.
On “Open Mic for the week of 9/16/2024”
October 7th was the straw that broke the camel's back among Israeli Jews. The basically believed, rightly or wrongly, that they have been putting up with a lot of nonsense from Hamas and Hezbollah for a long time even after their withdrawal form Gaza and two attempts at a negotiated end to the I/P conflict. Now they want Hamas and Hezbollah gone for good or at least neutarized.
I think to a lesser extent, October 7th was the straw that broke the camel's back among Diaspora Jews as well. Seeing these activists out and about celebrating the death of Jews on a mass level was deeply vile. The antics of the Pro-Palestinian protestors and the sheer amount of anit-Semitism coming from them was deeply enraging. So we want them to shut up.
"
@Philip H, now do this with the Israeli government doesn't fight the Settlers because of internal political reasons and see how reasonable it sounds to you.
"
Theoretically if Israel withdraws from the West Bank and even the Golan Heights and they because launch pads against Israel like Gaza and Lebanon did, than what? How much is Israel supposed to deal with?
"
See Dark Matter's point above that this won't end if Israel withdrawal from territory only leads to more violence against it. This has happened in both Lebanon and Gaza. Even if you assume that Netanyahu is a bastard, I think the average Israeli has enough experience to believe that a withdrawal from the West Bank won't end the violence against them but increase it. That really isn't conductive to even a cold peace if the Palestinian and Islamist dead enders are going to be allowed to be violent in perpetuity with no retaliation forever.
"
DavidTC and Chris believe they can cleverly move the goal posts all the time so that Israel has always done something wrong. This is because deep in their hearts they really want the answer to be "No Israel, No Jews" too.
"
Palestinians complied with what they were supposed to do? Really? Arafat was playing a double game for the entire Oslo Process and Hamas ignored Oslo entirely and started their terrorist campaign right away. After they actually got some territory, they turned it into an armed camp.
"
It's rather quaint that a politician is under scrutiny for a very old fashioned sex scandal in this day and age. Like maybe in the aughts and earlier, I can see a politician's porn habits sinking them. But today? With porn as widespread as it is? That seems weird even in a red-leaning state like North Carolina.
On “How Israel Got Hezbollah’s Pager Number”
There seems to be a lot of people that want but will not say the following to happen.
1. Israel agrees to the creation of a Palestinian state with maximum generosity and zero suspicion.
2. Israel ignores the rocket barrages and terrorism from the Palestinian dead enders and Islamists with grace and a stiff upper lip to keep the region stable and not a source of trouble for developed democracies.
3. Jews in general and Israeli Jews in particular wait patiently for the Palestinians and other Muslims to get whatever is in them out of their systems.
There seems to be a big part of the world that is willing to sacrifice Israel and the Jewish people in the name of pragmatics but doesn't want to exactly say this.
"
As mentioned to Jaybird, LGM had a big argument yesterday over Israel's operation. The idealists were aghast because of the civilians were injured or killed but more people than usually thought that this is actually a better way to go after terrorists than bombing because it minimalizes the damage to the extent possible. It is basically an argument between no civilian should be hurt ever and civilian casualties should be avoided but war is messy and Hezbollah started this by intervening when they did not have to.
"
These sorts of operations take months or years of planning. They are currently useless if you decide not to pull it off. Yes, they might not necessarily work but you need to try. One thing that might make it work is that Hezbollah already believes that "the Demon Jew is out to get you" and all sorts of Elders of Zion type conspiracy theories, Muslim edition. This operation plays on that and must seriously spook them.
The other blog is strangely divided about this more so than it ever was during the Israel-Hamas War. People who were generally critical of Israel during the Israel-Hamas War remain so and are calling it a war crime and targeting civilians but other posters, more so than usual, are arguing that Hezbollah had no reason to fire rockets into Israel and this sort of operation is a much better way to handle terrorists than bombing them. Yes, civilians might still get injured or killed but less so than by aerial bombing. It is basically a pure idealist vs. realist fight with about half and half on each side.
On “Open Mic for the week of 9/16/2024”
I have yet to hear anybody defending Hezbollah articulate a believable reason for Hezbollah to be allowed to continue rockets into Israel. Rockets that killed, check notes, 12 Druze children. My basic theory is that people who consider Israel and ipso facto illegitimate state just believe that Israel needs to endure this with a stiff upper lip or that they believe the following approach should be taken but will not say it:
1. Israel agrees to the creation of a Palestinian state.
2. Israel endures the dead enders and Islamists with grace and a stiff upper lip.
3. Israel and the Jews world wide wait patiently for centuries as the Muslims get modernity through their systems.
The best of them just want to change the dynamic and believe that basically only Israel can do this for whatever reason they won't say. I generally assume it is because they aren't that sympathetic to Israel and also believe that Israel/Jewish population is small enough to be more easily pressured.
"
The debates on LGM over the I/P conflict seem to revolve around the people who take what the Palestinians and Muslims at least slightly serious and those that go "oh, nobody can believe that" and all this theocratic talk is about their oppression.
"
Many people did not want to take the Vance types seriously for a long time. Even during Trump's first impression, there was a minor version of the "oh, nobody can be that bad or believe in this ridiculous stuff" that I noted exists above when it comes to Islamic theocratic beliefs.
"
That is a big part of it but not all of it. The problem with liberals or liberalish people is that the alternative to the secular developed democracy liberalish lifestyle seems so utterly bonkers and unpleasant that they can't imagine anybody rejecting it for any reason. It doesn't make sense with TradCath converts like Vance does it or if the the Taliban does it. Nor can these people be sincere in their beliefs and have to be doing it for some other reason.
I think a lot of my fellow Jews are going to get hurt a lot because of this and much of what we have built will be destroyed. Many liberals are useless enough when dealing with white anti-Semites from the right because they can't quite get Jews as an oppressed people or really being in danger in their head space. The imperatives of liberalism make them worse than useless when dealing with other anti-Semites.
"
It doesn't help that white liberals and leftists seem incapacitated when dealing with anti-Semitism from non-Whites or people who code non-White because of the imperative not to seem racist ever. You saw this when the issue of anti-Semitism in the Women's March or with Kayne West came along. Having to write about it seemed physically painful with the Vox set. They are even worse with Muslim anti-Semitism for the same reason. They just can't do it.
"
I definitely agree with the hidden economics thesis to as part of the endless inability for the Palestinians and other to decide on another source of action. The UN agencies and International Caring Community have been subsidizing the defiance of the Palestinians for decades but pointing out the best thing for the Palestinians would be to cut of their money supply to make them reach a decision seems cruel. Chances are that other Muslims will rush in to fill the avoid anyway.
The true believer issue is antoher problem becasue very few people seem interested in a direct confrontation with them besides Israel and Diaspora Jews. This goes beyond making peace. We Jews aren't really that much into evangelizing and making others follow our way but you have tens or hundreds of millions of people who can't stand Jews doing Jewish things world wide even when we spend our own money on them. It is simply too much for them to bear. The anti-Semites of all stripes are aware that they outnumber Jews by a considerable margin and nobody else wants to grab them firmly by the arm, tell them that they are ridiculous, and break their bones to get them to stop. Therefore, the Jew haters never stop by they white or of color or Christian or Muslim or anything else.
On “From The Financial Times: From Taipei to Budapest: the mysterious trail of exploding pagers”
These are people who believe that Israel is one more glorious push to collapse despite all evidnece. Of course, they are stupid, lazy, an complacent.
On “Open Mic for the week of 9/16/2024”
To take this more broadly, there seem to be certain liberal imperatives that prevent the small broad small-l coalition from realizing that different types of illiberals might be serious about what they believe no matter how much they say it or what actions they take. The usual response whether it is from a fascist in the West or an Islamist or a Hinduvata nationalist or whatever else is "oh, nobody can really believe something that ridiculous" and "these things are just ways for so and so to maintain power by fear and terror" or if sympathetic to the illiberal, "poverty and oppression are driving these beliefs and once those go away they will become eusocial liberals." The idea that people can really believe in ridiculous things and in large numbers is just treated as an impossibility.
"
Here is a thing that I really don't understand. The Palestinians along with many other Muslim majority countries from Morocco to Indonesia and from Kazakhstan down to whatever the southern most Muslim majority country in sub-Sahara Africa has have made it clear that close connections between Islam and state are important to them even if the non-Muslim population is very substantial like it was in Sudan before South Sudanese independence, Nigeria, and Malaysia. They aren't exactly shy about their overwhelmingly Islamic orientation in those places complete with laws against blasphemy and apostacy. Most state symbols are Muslim and Islam appears in the official wording somewhere.
There are a lot of well meaning Westerners that simply seem to refuse to get this. All the clear statements from the Palestinians and other Muslims of "we want Muslim Palestine" gets scrambled in the heads into "we want multicultural rainbow Palestine" despite a lot of easy to find statements that show the exact opposite. As mentioned previously, there is Pro-Palestinian propaganda on social media that depicts Tel Aviv as a "Palestinian" city. But whenever this gets pointed out, and no matter how much evidence is presented, it gets dismissed as Islamophobia. It is like certain imperatives in liberalism just prevent Westerners from dealing with all the extremely obvious to Jews anti-Semitism among Muslims or how utterly dominate Islam is.
"
You have no idea how utterly vile I and many Jews find it that the people who were out and about celebrating 10/7 as an act of "kinetic decolonization" are wailing and wailing about the Palestinians in Gaza or the people in Lebanon. They have agency as well. They can actually try a different approach than "Israel is just one more glorious push to the sea." Instead they have not done that. I have seen Pro-Palestinian propaganda in my feed that tries to present what is clearly Tel Aviv as a "Palestinian city." I've seen this for pre-state Tel Aviv and 21st century Tel Aviv.
The Palestinians and other Muslims have been saying "No Israel, No Jews" and that the entire thing is an Arab Muslim state connected to other Arab Muslim states for decades before I was born. People in the West seem not to be willing to believe that they might be serious about this and really, really mean it. Instead the burden is always placed on Israel and the Jews to reach out and make peace.
"
Some of those guys look rather pasty.
"
Several hostages have been found recently. I find the idea that Israel should just give up the ghost about hostages very disturbing. I don't think you understand how much 10/7 was the straw that broke the camel's back not just for Jews in Israel regarding Hamas and Hezbollah but with Diaspora Jews and Further Left determined to go more and more into open anti-Semitism. Like there are many people who seem to believe and not say the following:
1. Israel should agree to the creation of a Palestinian state with maximum generosity and zero suspicion.
2. Deal with Palestinian dead enders and Islamist terrorists with grace and a stiff upper lip.
3. Jews should control our crazies but the Muslim responsibility to control their crazies is zero.
4. Wait for things to be better.
There is a lot of arrogance and anti-Semitism towards the Jews in that part of the World and Western liberals seem utterly unable to deal with it. The imperative not to sound Islamophobic is so strong that they simply can't comment about all the anti-Semitism among Muslims. Jews are just given the entire burden of doing everything to create peace in the I/P conflict and good Jewish-Muslim relations.
"
Chris for one thing on this blog. Lots of people on LGM are crying that this is terrorism while others are defending it as basically the best possible way to deal with terrorism because it hurts less than bombing Hizbollah areas in Lebanon. Lots of the very online.
"
Have you ever considered that a lot of them are being very serious with their metaphysical understanding of the conflict and they really see Israel's existence as a blot on all of Islam?
"
This sort of very targeted response is what people wanted Israel to do after October 7th. But when Israel actually does this very targeted response, it is "no, no, not like that."
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.