Pfft...its simple elitism, Freddie.
Stratification by coolth.
If you can afford the price, you buy coolth.
If not , go without the meat and curse the bread.
A theory of judicial review that defers to democratic majorities so long as the rights involved are not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
Then unless someone can come up with a valid <i>secular</i> reason to oppose SSM, citizen rights endowed by the constitution and the bill of rights  apply to homosexuals with the equal protection afforded to blacks and women.
Nope.
I just want that elusive mythical secular reason for the opposition to SSM.
I asked for it at secularright, I asked for at TAS, and they just handwaved at "traditional wisdom".
As I explained, that is not sufficient.
I respectfully and humbly ask for it here.
Satisfy meh, O League of Ordinary Gentlemen.
Without the ability to procreate there is no scientific basis for marriage. Thus all gays, and all straights who were unable to conceive, could be barred from marriage on purely secular grounds.
But right now lesbian couples can reproduce with a sperm donor, and gay men with a host womb, or via adoption.
Are you going to outlaw adoption and fertility therapy?
"Without the ability to procreate there is no scientific basis for marriage."
Arrant, unscrupulous, and shameless disinformation.
Evo theory of culture and cognitive anthropology and evolutionary biology are all sciences. Evolved normative forms of marriage are the building blocks of society. Once polygamy was the normative form because it was genetically and culturally successful. I guess you would deny marriage to deliberately childless couples, older couples, infertile couples.
And anyways, so darkages your argument, so dated.
Lesbian couples can reprduce right now with a sperm donor, and a host womb (in ten years the j-womb) allows homosexual men to reproduce their dna.
jeez, teh Stupid....it burrrns.
or merely men and women hungrier for power than for true cultural change.
That is just false.
The christianist movement wants to abrogate change, to freeze society and culture in an iceblock of the past. That is what "traditional wisdom" and Manzi's New Fusion "federalism" is all about. Stopping change, callin' a halt to cultural evolution. Whether this is "virtuous" or not, it is a plan for failure. In a religiously pluralistic, educated society, "our god says so" is simply not an acceptable reason to fight cultural evolution unless the christianists make a majority. And that is nothing but mob-rule.
As long as the christianists were the biggest mob, "because we say so" was a fine argument. Majority rule.
This was the "traditional wisdom" imposed by Kylon and the democrats on the Pythagoreans.
But now the demographic decline of white christians in the electorate is spawning a frenzy of specious apologia for "because we say so", manifested as an endorsement of "traditional wisdom" and a return to the glory days of feralism. Well "federalism" as envisioned by (it seems)the whole of the christian right base is just localized mob rule The truth is, there are no secular reasons to oppose SSM. And indeed, the analogy of the judiciary striking down segregation academies and anti-miscegenation laws is apt.
In other words, this is a doomed and futile quixotic adventure completely divorced from reality.
Can't stop teh evolution.
You talk like cultural evolution doesn't and your self-examination is happening in some sort of sterile laboratory.
This is like the TAS post dismissing evolutionary psychology as "vulgar evo psych".
While the catholics and the conservatives are bizzy navel-gazing and contemplating the triumphs of the past, science and technology are whizzing past into detailed explanations of human nature.
Behold, my new favorite mindtoy......
Cognitive Anthropology.
And I at least finally understand the mechanics of the GOP. It is populist to the bone. The GOP is nominally led by elites pretending to be noble yeoman farmers, but actually the leadership is lead by the nose by the christianist base.
That led to GOP electoral victories when white christians were the biggest mob.
They are not any the biggest mob anymore.
My epiphany came when I saw GW lie on nat'l television about stem cells.
And the Schiavo madness....
Not sure where Cole's epiphany came in.
Frum is right.
“Back in the 1960s and 1970s, we’d been fighting to protect the common-sense instincts of ordinary people from elite interference. Now, in the Terri Schiavo euthanasia case, with stem cell research, on gay rights issues, it was we who had become the interfering elite, against a society that was reaching its own new equilibrium.
Of course, that’s not how conservatives saw it. We saw a country divided in two, red states and blue, NASCAR vs. NPR, real America against the phonies in the cities. A movement that had begun as an intellectual one now scornfully pooh-poohed the need for people in government to know anything much at all. But expertise does matter, and the neglect of expertise leads to mismanagement and failure — as we saw in Iraq, in Katrina and in the disregard of warning signals from the financial market. It was under a supposedly pro-market administration that the United States suffered the worst market failure of the post-war era, and that should have sobered us. Instead, we rallied to Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber…
But on environmental issues, we have to follow the evidence where it leads — and on social issues we have to take our society as it is. If the world changes, we have to change with it. The refusal of so many of my fellow conservatives in the United States to adapt their thinking to facts and realities does not demonstrate their adherence to principle. It demonstrates a frivolous indifference to the responsibilities of political leadership.”
And I think Cole and I experienced the same thing....we were betrayed.
Conservative leaders we respected and looked up to....lied.
And they are still lying.
That is the source of our anger and frustration, not the apostate's zeal you so colorfully describe.
Taken issue by issue, there is no significant difference.
Consider SSM-- even "secular" Heather MacDonald and Razib Khan "fear the harm". Even Steve Sailer spouts that same spinverbage about "traditional wisdom".
In case you haven't noticed, Sully, Frum, Powell, Christo Buckley, etc are not considered to be conservatives by their tribe.
For another example look at poor Michael Steele, who is forced to retract every moderate word that comes out of his mouth.
Conservatism is descending into primitive fundamantalism, purging defectors and indulging in magical thinking; eight-cell blastulae are humans endowed with citizen rights, hASR is superior to hESCR, AGW is a myth, IDT is peer to ToE, etc.
I repeat, there is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE.
It's unfair to lump all Republicans or all conservatives in the same bunch, when clearly there exists a long, long, long spectrum of opinion.
It is perfectly fair.
There is no "spectrum of opinion".
I defy you to find a nano-wafer's difference between Douthat's and say....either Rush or Beck's positions on anything.
Tu sais, Philip, cher......there is no reform conservatism.
There are only movement conservatives that uniformly pander to the low information base with wishful thinking and dogwhistle IQ-baiting and race-baiting.
All the erstwhile reform conservatives get keelhauled under the deck of the SS Conservative Titanic.
Why didn't you link Cole?
Too cowardly to risk a response?
Well...you can read this.
i imagine John Cole feels just like I do....betrayed. 2 and 1/2 years ago when I saw Bush was LYING on stem cells.... I began to see he was lying on Iraq, torture, Iran, and the economy.
And conservatives are still lying through their teeth....reform conservatives along with movement conservatives.
Ross Douthat is just Kristol with a bigger vocabulary and better hair.
Pfft.
It is so much simpler than that.
Conservatives resent the branding that they are not as smart. That is what the whole IQ-baiting, anti-intellectual, anti-elite, anti-academia schitck is about. That is why the attempt to force IDT into highschools.
Here's the meme....we are just as smart as you snobby elitists...we are smart in a different way, the way that really counts...godsmart!
We have both commonsense and godsense!
But conservatives are not as as, on the aggregate.
Like 99% of the top scientists are agnostic or atheists.
Being very smart automatically makes one an elite.
Megan is a conservative and she is exhibiting a common conservative failing....the idea that some things or some people should not be mocked, eg God, Sarah Palin, Bush, the econopalypse, religious belief, etc. etc.
In defense of mockery, I offer the purity of the First Law of South Park--
Either it is all ok to make fun of, or none of it is.
--Kyle
The pinnacle of the evolutionary development of intelligence is humorous self-deprecation (imho). Conservatives seem to have very little of this. Perhaps a "sense of humor" is negatively correlated with religiousity, like IQ and g.
Am I therefore correct in styling the GOP the crypto-neanderthal party?
Failure to evolve.
;)
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.
On “Why I care about this Apple vs. PC business”
And freddie.......macs are liberal and pcs are conservative.
lol
"
Pfft...its simple elitism, Freddie.
Stratification by coolth.
If you can afford the price, you buy coolth.
If not , go without the meat and curse the bread.
On “On the Bounce”
Nice, Will.
True subversive guerrilla thought.
There is hope yet.
On “Why I care about this Apple vs. PC business”
In a world without walls or borders.....who needs Windows and Gates?
On “pacifism and the culture wars”
I don't think people on the other side are evil.....I just think they are stupid.
Read a fucking book on biology for cripes sakes.
On “The Limits of Secularization”
A theory of judicial review that defers to democratic majorities so long as the rights involved are not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
Then unless someone can come up with a valid <i>secular</i> reason to oppose SSM, citizen rights endowed by the constitution and the bill of rights  apply to homosexuals with the equal protection afforded to blacks and women.
"
I can think of at least one secular reason to oppose striking down SSM bans, but that’s about it.
Let's hear it, by all means, Dave.
Oh yes, William, your schitck is Fear of a Secular Planet, as virtualized in E.D. 's "blind" ship.
I forgot.
"
Nope.
I just want that elusive mythical secular reason for the opposition to SSM.
I asked for it at secularright, I asked for at TAS, and they just handwaved at "traditional wisdom".
As I explained, that is not sufficient.
I respectfully and humbly ask for it here.
Satisfy meh, O League of Ordinary Gentlemen.
"
Bzzzt!
You fail.
Would you like to play again?
"
Without the ability to procreate there is no scientific basis for marriage. Thus all gays, and all straights who were unable to conceive, could be barred from marriage on purely secular grounds.
But right now lesbian couples can reproduce with a sperm donor, and gay men with a host womb, or via adoption.
Are you going to outlaw adoption and fertility therapy?
"
"Without the ability to procreate there is no scientific basis for marriage."
Arrant, unscrupulous, and shameless disinformation.
Evo theory of culture and cognitive anthropology and evolutionary biology are all sciences. Evolved normative forms of marriage are the building blocks of society. Once polygamy was the normative form because it was genetically and culturally successful. I guess you would deny marriage to deliberately childless couples, older couples, infertile couples.
And anyways, so darkages your argument, so dated.
Lesbian couples can reprduce right now with a sperm donor, and a host womb (in ten years the j-womb) allows homosexual men to reproduce their dna.
jeez, teh Stupid....it burrrns.
"
That is just false.
The christianist movement wants to abrogate change, to freeze society and culture in an iceblock of the past. That is what "traditional wisdom" and Manzi's New Fusion "federalism" is all about. Stopping change, callin' a halt to cultural evolution. Whether this is "virtuous" or not, it is a plan for failure. In a religiously pluralistic, educated society, "our god says so" is simply not an acceptable reason to fight cultural evolution unless the christianists make a majority. And that is nothing but mob-rule.
As long as the christianists were the biggest mob, "because we say so" was a fine argument. Majority rule.
This was the "traditional wisdom" imposed by Kylon and the democrats on the Pythagoreans.
But now the demographic decline of white christians in the electorate is spawning a frenzy of specious apologia for "because we say so", manifested as an endorsement of "traditional wisdom" and a return to the glory days of feralism. Well "federalism" as envisioned by (it seems)the whole of the christian right base is just localized mob rule The truth is, there are no secular reasons to oppose SSM. And indeed, the analogy of the judiciary striking down segregation academies and anti-miscegenation laws is apt.
In other words, this is a doomed and futile quixotic adventure completely divorced from reality.
Can't stop teh evolution.
On “The early church and its franchises.”
I'll run with a market analogy.
Once I pinkslipped god.
And Sir Richard? He is attempting a hostile takeover of the franchise.
On “Tradition and Ideology”
You talk like cultural evolution doesn't and your self-examination is happening in some sort of sterile laboratory.
This is like the TAS post dismissing evolutionary psychology as "vulgar evo psych".
While the catholics and the conservatives are bizzy navel-gazing and contemplating the triumphs of the past, science and technology are whizzing past into detailed explanations of human nature.
Behold, my new favorite mindtoy......
Cognitive Anthropology.
On “Guest Post: Philip Primeau”
And I at least finally understand the mechanics of the GOP. It is populist to the bone. The GOP is nominally led by elites pretending to be noble yeoman farmers, but actually the leadership is lead by the nose by the christianist base.
That led to GOP electoral victories when white christians were the biggest mob.
They are not any the biggest mob anymore.
My epiphany came when I saw GW lie on nat'l television about stem cells.
And the Schiavo madness....
Not sure where Cole's epiphany came in.
Frum is right.
“Back in the 1960s and 1970s, we’d been fighting to protect the common-sense instincts of ordinary people from elite interference. Now, in the Terri Schiavo euthanasia case, with stem cell research, on gay rights issues, it was we who had become the interfering elite, against a society that was reaching its own new equilibrium.
Of course, that’s not how conservatives saw it. We saw a country divided in two, red states and blue, NASCAR vs. NPR, real America against the phonies in the cities. A movement that had begun as an intellectual one now scornfully pooh-poohed the need for people in government to know anything much at all. But expertise does matter, and the neglect of expertise leads to mismanagement and failure — as we saw in Iraq, in Katrina and in the disregard of warning signals from the financial market. It was under a supposedly pro-market administration that the United States suffered the worst market failure of the post-war era, and that should have sobered us. Instead, we rallied to Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber…
But on environmental issues, we have to follow the evidence where it leads — and on social issues we have to take our society as it is. If the world changes, we have to change with it. The refusal of so many of my fellow conservatives in the United States to adapt their thinking to facts and realities does not demonstrate their adherence to principle. It demonstrates a frivolous indifference to the responsibilities of political leadership.”
But he's a RINO, isnt he Philip?
"
And I think Cole and I experienced the same thing....we were betrayed.
Conservative leaders we respected and looked up to....lied.
And they are still lying.
That is the source of our anger and frustration, not the apostate's zeal you so colorfully describe.
"
Taken issue by issue, there is no significant difference.
Consider SSM-- even "secular" Heather MacDonald and Razib Khan "fear the harm". Even Steve Sailer spouts that same spinverbage about "traditional wisdom".
In case you haven't noticed, Sully, Frum, Powell, Christo Buckley, etc are not considered to be conservatives by their tribe.
For another example look at poor Michael Steele, who is forced to retract every moderate word that comes out of his mouth.
Conservatism is descending into primitive fundamantalism, purging defectors and indulging in magical thinking; eight-cell blastulae are humans endowed with citizen rights, hASR is superior to hESCR, AGW is a myth, IDT is peer to ToE, etc.
I repeat, there is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE.
Paul is no conservative, he is a libertarian.
"
It is perfectly fair.
There is no "spectrum of opinion".
I defy you to find a nano-wafer's difference between Douthat's and say....either Rush or Beck's positions on anything.
"
Tu sais, Philip, cher......there is no reform conservatism.
There are only movement conservatives that uniformly pander to the low information base with wishful thinking and dogwhistle IQ-baiting and race-baiting.
All the erstwhile reform conservatives get keelhauled under the deck of the SS Conservative Titanic.
Why didn't you link Cole?
Too cowardly to risk a response?
"
Well...you can read this.
i imagine John Cole feels just like I do....betrayed. 2 and 1/2 years ago when I saw Bush was LYING on stem cells.... I began to see he was lying on Iraq, torture, Iran, and the economy.
And conservatives are still lying through their teeth....reform conservatives along with movement conservatives.
Ross Douthat is just Kristol with a bigger vocabulary and better hair.
On “what the Journolist kerfuffle suggests”
Jeez......conservatives are NOT AS SMART on the aggregate.
I'm going to bed.
"
Conservatives are as smart, not as as.
apolos
"
Pfft.
It is so much simpler than that.
Conservatives resent the branding that they are not as smart. That is what the whole IQ-baiting, anti-intellectual, anti-elite, anti-academia schitck is about. That is why the attempt to force IDT into highschools.
Here's the meme....we are just as smart as you snobby elitists...we are smart in a different way, the way that really counts...godsmart!
We have both commonsense and godsense!
But conservatives are not as as, on the aggregate.
Like 99% of the top scientists are agnostic or atheists.
Being very smart automatically makes one an elite.
On “Stewart v. McArdle”
Megan is a conservative and she is exhibiting a common conservative failing....the idea that some things or some people should not be mocked, eg God, Sarah Palin, Bush, the econopalypse, religious belief, etc. etc.
In defense of mockery, I offer the purity of the First Law of South Park--
"
The pinnacle of the evolutionary development of intelligence is humorous self-deprecation (imho). Conservatives seem to have very little of this. Perhaps a "sense of humor" is negatively correlated with religiousity, like IQ and g.
Am I therefore correct in styling the GOP the crypto-neanderthal party?
Failure to evolve.
;)
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.