We've been around and around on this and you eventually end up admitting the settlements and land theft are a massive problem and that Israel is nakedly wrong to be there and would probably be in better shape both reputationally and literally if they withdrew unilaterally. I don't want to rehash that.
I do want to observe that all the "justifications" you keep proffering occurred decades and decades ago, in many cases over fifty years ago whereas the West Bank Palestinians peaceable behavior is the literal current tense state of affairs for the past decade or two. That is either incoherent or contradictory.
Likewise with the respective governments and populations. Your assertions for Gaza are:
1: Hamas is the government of Gaza
2: Hamas attacked Israel
3: The Palestinians of Gaza didn’t resist Hamas or throw Hamas out thus they can be ascribed to approve of this attack and be of the same mindset as Hamas.
I think that’s reductive but, fair enough, we’ll go with it. But when we apply this -exact- chain of logic to the West Bank it utterly implodes.
1: The PA is the government of the West Bank.
2: The PA has maintained peacable de jeur relationships with Israel for many years now.
3: The Palestinians of the West Bank haven’t resisted the PA nor have they thrown the PA out thus they can be ascribed to… have the same attitude that the Palestinians in Gaza have because Dark Matter has some dubious polls and points at some things other Arab states did fifty years ago?!?!?!
It just doesn’t work. And on top of that we agree that the PA is undemocratic and corrupt which, somehow, also means that it is incredibly and secretly effective at suppressing all violent action from this population which is supposedly seething with violent attack now impulses for Israelis and has Israeli targets readily at hand.
And, then, this whole mess of contradictory reasoning somehow means that the Israeli rights’ land seizures, vandalism, violent attacks and exclusionary development doesn’t constitute slow motion ethnic cleansing?
Look, I repeat myself, I’m pro-Israeli and I still think the far lefts anti-Israeli postures are deranged but it is no mystery at all to me why Israel’s moral position is crumbling in the eyes of every non-Jewish group or every young person that looks at the matter or why the far lefts anti-Israeli posture keeps slowly growing in strength year after year. Because I do think you’re doing the best you can, Dark, regarding the West Bank and despite that this is pathetically weak tea.
Jews don't have to do anything with regards to the fringe left. As a friend of Jews and their state I'd advise them that, maybe, they should consider doing things that will prevent the anti-Israeli left from steadily growing and winning converts world wide. But the Israeli's, apparently, have decided they're going to double down on what they've been doing for years to empower the anti-Israeli left. I wish I had enough Jewish background to know what clever Yiddish phrase would apply to that foolish decision- I have no doubt there is one.
Sure to all that, but what I am referring to in the West Bank is not questions of ownership.
What I'm referring to in the West Bank is settlers and other right wing Jewish activists attacking Palestinians and driving them off their land with the either indifference or acquiescence of the Israeli military authorities and the forcible immobilization of any Palestinian authorities coupled with a steady development and expansion of Jewish only settlements in that same region with security barriers and Jewish only transport hubs to connect said settlements. When we also consider that it's no longer 2000 and the West Banks Palestinian administration has generally been cooperative with the Israelis and has suppressed anti-Jewish attacks (both within the West Bank and originating from the West Bank) the difference becomes even more nakedly stark. That said authority is corrupt and non-democratic is true but irrelevant. All this action by the Israeli right with the allowance of their government is undeniably ethnic cleansing. It's slow and gradual but that doesn't change what it is.
While I don't subscribe to the lefts wacky fringers or their deranged ideas about Israel proper we're very much long past the point where the actions Israel and her people are taking in the West Bank can be defended by pointing at past West Bank Palestinian choices (they've been largely peaceable for over a decade now) nor by pointing at the actions of other Palestinians or neighboring Arab states (that's empty whataboutism).
I, myself, and an Philo-Semite regarding Israel but when I watch the reputation of the Jewish state relentlessly but slowly eroding to my left I cannot, in any honesty, say that development is purely baseless anti-Semitism.
And while I agree that what Israel is up to in Gaza doesn't meet the bar of genocide or ethnic cleansing... yet. I find the very purposeful ignoring of what Israel is getting up to in the territories intellectually dishonest and borderline hypocritical.
It's not just betrayal but towering hypocrisy on the part of the leftier DEI and intersectionalists. It's also naked paternalism towards the Palestinians.
Thank you for confirming my suspicions because I have, over the years, read a number of Tablet articles (one about the politics of ultra orthodox public schooling funding in NY; another about the rabbinical background thought on biblical Noah) that were informative, thoughtful and deeply researched so this one really surprised me.
Assuming the same policies then GOP ineptitude would have killed notably more soldiers than the handful that the suicide bomber took out during Bidens' withdrawal. More likely, though, Trump would have reneged on withdrawing and continued the occupation and then astronomically more American soldiers would be dead and we'd still be in Afghanistan.
Conservative thoughts? That's got to be the harshest thing anyone has said about conservatives on this site in ages Jaybird. Well done.
The headline of this article, note, is "How Barack Obama Build an Omnipotent Thought-Machine and how it was destroyed" and I think that summarizes the tone and thought quality of the article well.
Agreed. In the clear stark light of hindsight Biden should either have not run at all in 2020 in which case likely one of the other center laners or a centrist who sat out because of Biden would have gotten the nod and thumped Trump or he should have said he wasn't running again after the midterms.
He threw a fit because it was a compromise deal that included Dem priorities and because it didn't include a debt limit increase. The nerve of Dems, not giving him everything he'd want and thanking him for the chance to do so. Heheh
My point is simpler than that my friend: it's that in these modern times even the liberal (not the left wing identarian but actual honest to god(ess?) liberal) stance on Israel involves a lot of nose holding and genuine moral struggle with regards to Israel. And that's because of the Israeli right. That's not something you can blame on the professors or the Arabs or the luntatic lefties- that's on the Israeli right.
You're angry because you remember a time, only a decade and change ago, when every thoughtful person was pro-Israeli and it wasn't even very close- well those times are past and I don't see many signs of them returning. That's something you're going to have to make peace with and hope that those cracks and chips in the surface vibes you feel aren't precursor tremors of a deeper, and much warned about, shift.
10/7 clouds the matter because Jews =/= Likud/the Israeli right and Likud/the Israeli right is bound up deeply in the 10/7 question and all matters Israeli. Moreover you, not to be too harsh, keep measuring this indicator by the discourse you read online rather than what is actually done by the lefts political actors in the real world.
I'm not profoundly concerned about the self-flagellation. The Democratic Party narrowly lost after running an orderly billion dollar campaign against a shambolic Republican operation headed by a carnival barker.
Introspection is a useful thing to do at this point in time for the party. When one factors in the remarkable demographic swings that made up this narrow loss introspection is even more merited. Some very comfortable, loud, strenuous Democratic consultant and advocacy groups have some serious explaining to do.
I wouldn't suggest that a stem to stern ideological revamping is needed but a lot of specific individual stuff needs to be really carefully questioned. Also a lot of old deadwood probably needs to be trimmed- thankfully this loss represents a pretty clean break. There's probably not going to be some blast from the past figure stepping forward to try and lead for '26 or '28.
Yes which is why their ideology is going to peel back like burnt wrapping paper and is already doing so. Sinecured academics and excessively compensated DEI department employees and consultants are neither numerous nor sympathetic enough of a constituency to have much clout long term in an electorate this big.
There are many many more Democrats than the ones that run California and New York. Also you left out insurance from your analysis of Florida which is akin to saying Hiroshima was a lovely place in '45 if you don't pay attention to radioactive fallout.
On “Joe Biden Agrees that Some People *DO* Deserve the Death Penalty”
We've been around and around on this and you eventually end up admitting the settlements and land theft are a massive problem and that Israel is nakedly wrong to be there and would probably be in better shape both reputationally and literally if they withdrew unilaterally. I don't want to rehash that.
I do want to observe that all the "justifications" you keep proffering occurred decades and decades ago, in many cases over fifty years ago whereas the West Bank Palestinians peaceable behavior is the literal current tense state of affairs for the past decade or two. That is either incoherent or contradictory.
Likewise with the respective governments and populations. Your assertions for Gaza are:
1: Hamas is the government of Gaza
2: Hamas attacked Israel
3: The Palestinians of Gaza didn’t resist Hamas or throw Hamas out thus they can be ascribed to approve of this attack and be of the same mindset as Hamas.
I think that’s reductive but, fair enough, we’ll go with it. But when we apply this -exact- chain of logic to the West Bank it utterly implodes.
1: The PA is the government of the West Bank.
2: The PA has maintained peacable de jeur relationships with Israel for many years now.
3: The Palestinians of the West Bank haven’t resisted the PA nor have they thrown the PA out thus they can be ascribed to… have the same attitude that the Palestinians in Gaza have because Dark Matter has some dubious polls and points at some things other Arab states did fifty years ago?!?!?!
It just doesn’t work. And on top of that we agree that the PA is undemocratic and corrupt which, somehow, also means that it is incredibly and secretly effective at suppressing all violent action from this population which is supposedly seething with violent attack now impulses for Israelis and has Israeli targets readily at hand.
And, then, this whole mess of contradictory reasoning somehow means that the Israeli rights’ land seizures, vandalism, violent attacks and exclusionary development doesn’t constitute slow motion ethnic cleansing?
Look, I repeat myself, I’m pro-Israeli and I still think the far lefts anti-Israeli postures are deranged but it is no mystery at all to me why Israel’s moral position is crumbling in the eyes of every non-Jewish group or every young person that looks at the matter or why the far lefts anti-Israeli posture keeps slowly growing in strength year after year. Because I do think you’re doing the best you can, Dark, regarding the West Bank and despite that this is pathetically weak tea.
"
Jews don't have to do anything with regards to the fringe left. As a friend of Jews and their state I'd advise them that, maybe, they should consider doing things that will prevent the anti-Israeli left from steadily growing and winning converts world wide. But the Israeli's, apparently, have decided they're going to double down on what they've been doing for years to empower the anti-Israeli left. I wish I had enough Jewish background to know what clever Yiddish phrase would apply to that foolish decision- I have no doubt there is one.
"
Sure to all that, but what I am referring to in the West Bank is not questions of ownership.
What I'm referring to in the West Bank is settlers and other right wing Jewish activists attacking Palestinians and driving them off their land with the either indifference or acquiescence of the Israeli military authorities and the forcible immobilization of any Palestinian authorities coupled with a steady development and expansion of Jewish only settlements in that same region with security barriers and Jewish only transport hubs to connect said settlements. When we also consider that it's no longer 2000 and the West Banks Palestinian administration has generally been cooperative with the Israelis and has suppressed anti-Jewish attacks (both within the West Bank and originating from the West Bank) the difference becomes even more nakedly stark. That said authority is corrupt and non-democratic is true but irrelevant. All this action by the Israeli right with the allowance of their government is undeniably ethnic cleansing. It's slow and gradual but that doesn't change what it is.
While I don't subscribe to the lefts wacky fringers or their deranged ideas about Israel proper we're very much long past the point where the actions Israel and her people are taking in the West Bank can be defended by pointing at past West Bank Palestinian choices (they've been largely peaceable for over a decade now) nor by pointing at the actions of other Palestinians or neighboring Arab states (that's empty whataboutism).
I, myself, and an Philo-Semite regarding Israel but when I watch the reputation of the Jewish state relentlessly but slowly eroding to my left I cannot, in any honesty, say that development is purely baseless anti-Semitism.
And while I agree that what Israel is up to in Gaza doesn't meet the bar of genocide or ethnic cleansing... yet. I find the very purposeful ignoring of what Israel is getting up to in the territories intellectually dishonest and borderline hypocritical.
"
It's not just betrayal but towering hypocrisy on the part of the leftier DEI and intersectionalists. It's also naked paternalism towards the Palestinians.
"
Okay so ethnic cleansing is okay so long as it's done by the Israeli's and it's done slowly. Gotcha.
"
*cough* The West Bank?
On “From Tablet Mag: Rapid-Onset Political Enlightenment”
Thank you for confirming my suspicions because I have, over the years, read a number of Tablet articles (one about the politics of ultra orthodox public schooling funding in NY; another about the rabbinical background thought on biblical Noah) that were informative, thoughtful and deeply researched so this one really surprised me.
On “A Note from Em”
We miss you Em, I am just delighted to see anything from you. I hope you have a fantastic new year.
On “From The Wall Street Journal: How the White House Functioned With a Diminished Biden in Charge”
Assuming the same policies then GOP ineptitude would have killed notably more soldiers than the handful that the suicide bomber took out during Bidens' withdrawal. More likely, though, Trump would have reneged on withdrawing and continued the occupation and then astronomically more American soldiers would be dead and we'd still be in Afghanistan.
On “Open Mic for the week of 12/16/2024”
Looks like the GOP can get more done negotiating with the Dems than they can negotiating with themselves.
On “From Tablet Mag: Rapid-Onset Political Enlightenment”
It got me to laugh a lot so it had some merit!
"
Conservative thoughts? That's got to be the harshest thing anyone has said about conservatives on this site in ages Jaybird. Well done.
The headline of this article, note, is "How Barack Obama Build an Omnipotent Thought-Machine and how it was destroyed" and I think that summarizes the tone and thought quality of the article well.
On “Fani Willis Disqualification Ruling: Read It For Yourself”
Agreed, she's an embarrassment.
On “From The Wall Street Journal: How the White House Functioned With a Diminished Biden in Charge”
Agreed. In the clear stark light of hindsight Biden should either have not run at all in 2020 in which case likely one of the other center laners or a centrist who sat out because of Biden would have gotten the nod and thumped Trump or he should have said he wasn't running again after the midterms.
On “Are Republicans Waking Up?”
It'd be interesting to see who the GOP tries to scrape up to be Speaker if Johnson gets the boot.
On “Open Mic for the week of 12/16/2024”
He threw a fit because it was a compromise deal that included Dem priorities and because it didn't include a debt limit increase. The nerve of Dems, not giving him everything he'd want and thanking him for the chance to do so. Heheh
On “Are Republicans Waking Up?”
On the part of Republican political actors? Probably. But on the part of our resident writers? No I think it's just wishful thinking.
On “From Semafor: Kamala Harris’ digital chief on Democrats ‘losing hold of culture’”
If it's any consolation you can be sure they say the same thing about you.
"
My point is simpler than that my friend: it's that in these modern times even the liberal (not the left wing identarian but actual honest to god(ess?) liberal) stance on Israel involves a lot of nose holding and genuine moral struggle with regards to Israel. And that's because of the Israeli right. That's not something you can blame on the professors or the Arabs or the luntatic lefties- that's on the Israeli right.
You're angry because you remember a time, only a decade and change ago, when every thoughtful person was pro-Israeli and it wasn't even very close- well those times are past and I don't see many signs of them returning. That's something you're going to have to make peace with and hope that those cracks and chips in the surface vibes you feel aren't precursor tremors of a deeper, and much warned about, shift.
"
10/7 clouds the matter because Jews =/= Likud/the Israeli right and Likud/the Israeli right is bound up deeply in the 10/7 question and all matters Israeli. Moreover you, not to be too harsh, keep measuring this indicator by the discourse you read online rather than what is actually done by the lefts political actors in the real world.
"
Uh yeah, I meet that pre-req obviously.
"
I'm not profoundly concerned about the self-flagellation. The Democratic Party narrowly lost after running an orderly billion dollar campaign against a shambolic Republican operation headed by a carnival barker.
Introspection is a useful thing to do at this point in time for the party. When one factors in the remarkable demographic swings that made up this narrow loss introspection is even more merited. Some very comfortable, loud, strenuous Democratic consultant and advocacy groups have some serious explaining to do.
I wouldn't suggest that a stem to stern ideological revamping is needed but a lot of specific individual stuff needs to be really carefully questioned. Also a lot of old deadwood probably needs to be trimmed- thankfully this loss represents a pretty clean break. There's probably not going to be some blast from the past figure stepping forward to try and lead for '26 or '28.
"
Yes which is why their ideology is going to peel back like burnt wrapping paper and is already doing so. Sinecured academics and excessively compensated DEI department employees and consultants are neither numerous nor sympathetic enough of a constituency to have much clout long term in an electorate this big.
On “Are Republicans Waking Up?”
There are many many more Democrats than the ones that run California and New York. Also you left out insurance from your analysis of Florida which is akin to saying Hiroshima was a lovely place in '45 if you don't pay attention to radioactive fallout.
On “From Semafor: Kamala Harris’ digital chief on Democrats ‘losing hold of culture’”
That is the defense sure. It doesn't work of course. Not with the narrow win Trump turned in.