From NY Mag: Freddie deBoer On Forcibly Treating the Mentally Ill

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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44 Responses

  1. Philip H
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    says:

    I don’t get the world Freddie live is. I mean he seems intelligent and he writes well according to the rules. But he patently refuses to see anything approaching the forrest, and probably misses most of the trees as well. And frankly someone who bills themselves as a libertarian but wants to expand government to enable this sort of thing needs a corner of his lib card taken off.

    There are good historical reasons why the pendulum is where it is. Not least among them the number of people committed because they were LGBTQ+. Or the number of women committed for having the early day audacity to assert their sexuality and/or their mental superiority. To say nothing of committing people who were in fact educable but had Downs syndrome or something similar.

    What really happened – which he seems to have not heard – is that deinstitutionalization occurred alongside budget cuts to programs and institutions that could have support the mentally ill in society. I suppose its equally derigour for libertarians, but I suspect more funding for mental health response and voluntary treatment would actually help.

    Alas we will never know because of essays like this – which give too many people an easy out to avoid claiming their roles in all this.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Philip H
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      At the same time, there are lots of really mentally ill people who need treatment for the safety of themselves and society that aren’t getting it because they aren’t seeking it and wouldn’t seek it even if generously funded. I don’t see why ignoring this is any different from what Freddie De Boer refuses to see.

      Like we have a lot of people who just don’t want to do things but society requires a certain element of doing what you have to do, not what you want to at times. Sometimes there needs to be stick to do this. People wanted to close the old institutions but at the same time didn’t want to pay taxes for any new programs and so we are in our current situation.Report

      • Philip H in reply to LeeEsq
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        People wanted to close the old institutions but at the same time didn’t want to pay taxes for any new programs and so we are in our current situation.

        Exactly. And Freddie’s approach doesn’t fix this. Plus he cherry picks a few heinous cases, and doesn’t really look at the statistics. I don’t have the ability this week to do that analysis, but I suspect we are talking tens of thousands here across the US, not millions. We need to find solutions for those folks with in our current frame work, not draft up new backward looking directives for a regrown police state.Report

        • Damon in reply to Philip H
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          Hey, I’m totally cool with swapping spending on support for Ukraine, Israel, NATO, and the UN, & the elimination of all US military bases on foreign shores, and shoving that money back to this cause…minus a massive upgrade in the care we give our vets.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Damon
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            says:

            So you’re an isolationist . . . fascinating . . .Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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              We should obviously go into places and make them better!

              Like we did with Iraq, like we did with Afghanistan, and like we are currently helping Israel do with Palestine.

              Anyone who disagrees is immoral.Report

            • Damon in reply to Philip H
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              says:

              More Isolationist leaning. I lean many directions in fact. Besides, you’re not going to get the American people to support tax increases or cutting domestic spending. Pretty much leaves the military and “foreign adventures”.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Damon
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                Given that foreign aid (including Ukraine and Israel) runs between 1 and 2% of the federal budget, eliminating it won’t actually get you much.

                And lets be real – you aren’t going to get cuts to defense spending either.Report

              • Damon in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                And here we are. Status quo gonna status. Nothing left but the collapse of empire and the rise of a new empire. My monies on China.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Damon
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                says:

                Look – I think we need to majorly restructure how the federal government spends money, and I agree the defense side is bloated beyond all need. I also recognize that 2/3rds of what we spend is covered by revenue raised – the remaining 1/3rd isn’t. Coincidently, federal discretionary spending accounts for roughly 1/3 of the federal budget. So either you eliminate the executive branch, you restructure how we raise money to cover earned benefits, or you raise taxes. There are not many other options.

                And each of those options has significant opposition from the monied elites of the country. The electorate can change that equation, but not unless we actually start all voting together. And at the moment there’s a bit of a problem with voting together.Report

              • Damon in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                “unless we actually start all voting together” Not gonna happen, or let’s say I’m very pessimistic that it will happen.Report

        • InMD in reply to Philip H
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          says:

          What do you think the statistics would show and what would they tell us the policy should be?Report

          • Philip H in reply to InMD
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            says:

            both the size of the need, and the size of the threat. If we are talking a one in many hundreds of thousands chance of something I don’t see granting the state back any more power then it has. Especially since, contra Freddie’s implications – we are not completely devoid of options for commitment.Report

            • InMD in reply to Philip H
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              Yea, it’s certainly fair to say odds of being murdered by a mentally unstable person are pretty low. Or being murdered in general really.

              Nevertheless I think the issue is somewhat vexing. I’m never one to be overly eager to empower the coercive power of the state without great need. But I also find it pretty unlikely that people with truly acute issues are ever going to do anything voluntarily. Some may be in such a condition that they can’t be brought into a rational state at all. For those people it’s more likely they’ll end up in the criminal justice system or rotting away then eventually dying in a truly decrepit state of poverty. That doesn’t seem right either.Report

              • Philip H in reply to InMD
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                I agree we may never get to 100% treatment no matter what services we throw at a problem. Yet history tells us stiff armed confinement won’t really be reserved for the hard edge cases, and even if it broke trend and was really that focused, it would require far more resources then just additional police authority.

                Bottom line – we made a national mistake by cutting funding for mental health post-deinstitutionalization. We continue to make that same mistake today. There are programs and approaches that can work to reduce the number of untreated edge cases – they deserve our attention, not a grab ’em up off the street in a dark van approach.Report

              • InMD in reply to Philip H
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                I give that a big maybe. Being charitable to FdB I assume that he too would say he does not favor the dark van approach (link is paywalled so if he does say he favors something like that I stand corrected).

                While I am also not in favor of argument by anecdote or the apparent requirement legacy publications seem to have for them I think the real question about the Bisesar incident and cases like it is whether some preventative intervention was possible. I don’t know enough about the particulars of that event to say. However I think it is fair to conclude that without institutions and only limited means of coercive intervention prior to commission of a crime, there are a number of seriously mentally ill people wandering around out there left to their own devices. Some subset of them will do something seriously heinous. Most will probably live in a state of permanent squalor. Maybe in a world of nothing but bad options that is the best we can do. However I would say if we think we can do better, thread some kind of needle, that it isn’t plausible to say that path involves only voluntary interventions, right up until a serious criminal act has occurred. You have to be willing to use a little force.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H
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      What both ends of the pendulum have in common is what I referred to on the other thread about homeless housing, a desire by many people to just make it Go Away so they never have to confront it or think about it.

      A healthier attitude I think is to acknowledge that in a healthy functioning society a certain percentage of businesses will go bankrupt, a certain percentage of marriages will end in divorce, and a certain percentage of people will become mentally ill/ addicts and need long term intensive, expensive care.Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels
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        says:

        Good luck with this. The problem with dealing with failure in life in general and some sorts of things like some people always being unable to care for themselves is that it is pretty easy for resentment to build up about the taxes needed to pay for the failure, especially if done with moral hectoring language that the privileged, however defined, must be eternal service to the underprivileged, as many activists are wont to do. You could even make a decent argument for 100% taxation and everybody giving allowances for their necessities only if you want to go really into the wretched of the earth type thinking. This is a very hard sell.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Philip H
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      Does he bill himself as a libertarian? I thought he was a leftier than thou typeReport

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Philip H
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      says:

      Also, you are forgetting the great lesson of the Substack/Hot Take economy, shamelessness is a super power.

      There is a seemingly bottomless pit of right-leaning types or alleged libertarians to have self-described “liberals” or “even leftists” like Weiss, Tabibi, and DeBoer tell them those mean winemom liberals who refused to sleep with you in high school or college is wrong, wrong, wrong and you are a correct, correct, correct brave contrarian “truthteller” going against “the establishment.” Notice who likes to concern troll with Bari Weiss on the internet generally.

      By contrast, the closest thing that liberals have to this is some of us like the Bulwark but the market is different.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Saul Degraw
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        says:

        You keep doing this thing where you attribute disagreement with you to anxiety or resentment over social status. Not only is this totally content-free, but it suggests that you yourself just blindly accept whatever is popular in your social circles as truth, and deeply resent people who dare to question your civic religion. It’s really not a good look.Report

    • North in reply to Philip H
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      Sweet googly moogly, Philip me lad, you must have Freddie mistaken for someone else. He’s been a flat out gen-u-ine self avowed communist for decades.Report

      • Philip H in reply to North
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        That may be his claim, but it’s not how he writes.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to North
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        FWIW, this essay sounds illiberal, whether extreme left or right doesn’t matter.

        The essay opens with a lurid story of a mentally ill woman murdering someone then transitions to a claim about how the system gave her shocking leniency.

        This is straight up 1978 style “librul judges letting criminals off with a technicality” stuff.

        More specifically, he displays the reactionary posture towards the mentally ill I referenced elsewhere, that he really just sees them as bad people who should be locked away.

        Not for their benefit, although he tosses in some obligatory words about it, but really, his primary concern here is that we, the good people, are being menaced by them, the bad people, and the law must take stern punitive actions.

        Had he spent 10 minutes Googling he would have discovered that yes in fact, there are plenty of people who are working to make involuntary confinement easier, in order to address the problems he describes. California has just rolled out its Care Courts for example.

        I don’t really get any sense of liberalism hereReport

  2. CJColucci
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    says:

    From stabbing someone to death to walking free in less than seven years is, I’m willing say, not an ideal outcome. Call me a fascist for it if you wish.

    If he was nuts, he was not criminally responsible for the killing, tragic though it was. He was released after, so far as Freddie is willing to tell us, he was no longer nuts or a threat to anyone else. (If he were still nuts or dangerous, Freddie would surely have told us.) Took only seven years to get from homicidal nut to sane and safe. Sounds pretty close to ideal.

    I’ll leave it to others whether to call Freddie a fascist.Report

    • Reformed Republican in reply to CJColucci
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      It would be a different story if he got out after 7 years and stabbed somebody else a week later, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. It wouldn’t be an indictment of the whole system, but it would at least be a more relevant anecdote.Report

  3. Burt Likko
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    says:

    My last encounter with someone who was pretty obviously mentally ill was peaceful, if saddening. This person’s behavior demonstrated a profound distrust of basically everything and everyone. Wouldn’t take a bottle of water when offered, for fear it had been poisoned. Wouldn’t get in a taxi when called for fear of assassins hiding in the back seat despite wanting to go back to a trusted place in another part of town.

    I was left at something of a loss for how to talk to them, how to steer them towards helpful resources, and concern not that they’d do something bad but that someone else would do something bad for them. A third party intervened and got them sent off to the “safe” location they’d named, although I questioned whether that facility would be able to help them due to lack of available beds.

    Involuntary confinement under most states’ current laws would not have been an option. Not violent, not a danger to self or others. Just likely to wind up huddled under a bridge or some similar place, hiding from their own shadow, obviously in need of some sort of mental health intervention that there simply isn’t a lot of money allocated for (if any).

    I’m not an SME. I can’t even begin to imagine answers here. But this is where I saw a need recently. A bit different than Freddie’s concern about the mentally ill person who stabbed an innocent, was confined for seven years, and then released. I get the distrust surrounding the release of such a person. In that case, we either allow people who are SME’s to make meaningful treatment decisions, or we don’t.

    But the case of someone non-violent but in need? That turns out to be a very hard problem to solve, and I bet (as discussed above) there’s a lot more of that kind of person at need than of people who pose imminent threats to themselves and others.Report

  4. Jaybird
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    says:

    There are a lot of people who don’t know what the goal is.

    “This person was not capable of doing the right thing!” is not seen by some people as a mitigating factor but an aggravating factor.

    I’m sure we remember the “A teen accused of shooting a man in the head was found incompetent to stand trial, then let go. He’s now charged with shooting another man in the head” headline from last year.

    Lots of ways to be unjust out there. Not all of them involve actively acting.Report

  5. Chris
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    says:

    In order to have this conversation, we have to start pretty far back from where Freddie is starting. First of all, if we’re talking about violence and forced detention, it does us no good to talk about “mental illness” as though it were a monolithic category. There are only a few disorders we’re talking about here, mostly certain sub-types of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and perhaps a handful of others (add in substance abuse, if we want to treat that as a mental disorder). This is important, because if we talk about giving the state increased authority to detain people, we need to be very specific about under what circumstances. Your neighbor with generalized anxiety, or your cousin on SSRIs, almost certainly don’t count.

    Second, we have to confront the fact that in today’s system, “mentally ill” people, and in particular those with a handful of severe mental illnesses (including types of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder) are already incarcerated at higher rates, and with longer sentences, so to a very real extent, Freddie’s solution is already being implemented, even if not under the guise of mental health care. Unless, that is, he simply wants to involuntarily detain everyone suffering from severe mental illness, in which case, we’re talking about a very dangerous policy proposal for reasons that I assume are obvious to everyone here.

    As a final note, it’s worth mentioning that measure crime rates among the “mentally ill” is very difficult, for a variety of reasons, and that our prejudices affect our perception of the prevalence of crime among people suffering from mental illness, in that it influences how we see actual crimes committed by people suffering from mental illness, it tends to cause us to attribute mental illness to just about anyone who commits violent crimes, and it triggers a sort of group attribution error, in which we treat violence as inherent to mental illness.Report

  6. Philip H
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    says:

    This seems germane to the discourse as a real life example of how this is currently handled:

    California man accused of deliberately driving himself, his wife and two children off a cliff on a coastal highway in January 2023 was granted a mental health diversion, meaning the criminal trial is now suspended, the San Mateo County District Attorney’s office said in a news release Thursday.

    Judge Susan Jakubowski said she granted the defense’s request for mental health diversion after reviewing the evidence and concluding Dharmesh Patel’s proper diagnosis was major depressive disorder.

    Patel, 42, was charged with three counts of attempted murder last year after prosecutors said he intentionally steered his Tesla off a portion of the Pacific Coast Highway called Devil’s Slide, sending himself, his wife and their two children, ages 7 and 4 at the time, plunging about 250 feet to a rocky beach below. Patel pleaded not guilty to the charges.

    https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/21/us/tesla-family-cliff-driver-diversion/index.htmlReport

    • Jaybird in reply to Philip H
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      Has anyone investigated whether the wife and their two children were jerks? If they contributed to his depression, isn’t a lot of this on them too?Report

    • Chris in reply to Philip H
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      If all we’re saying is that people who commit crimes while experiencing mental illness should be detained, then as a society, we’re already doing that, and then some, the occasional case like this one (where the dude will likely ultimately face some pretty severe consequences anyway) notwithstanding.

      Unless we’re supposed to be detaining every one of the 8% of the population who experiences a major depressive episode in any given year, or the 10% of women who give birth who experience postpartum depression. And given that as much as 1/3 of the population will experience at least one major depressive episode in their lifetime, I’m sure this is a viable policy solution.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Chris
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        This is sort of my point – Freddie seems to be whistling past our current situation, and toward a regime that just grabs people with no documented violence simply for having mental health issues. I’m not ok with that.Report

        • Chris in reply to Philip H
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          Yeah, I don’t think Freddie really says what he wants, in any detail, or how it would work, or how it would be different from our current situation. All I see is a narrative I’ve been hearing from liberals and some conservatives for decades now, about the shutting down of state mental institutions, a very bad example from what seems to be the only book he’s read on the topic that likely doesn’t involve a person who would have been in a state facility (because he has money), and little else.

          It’s particularly weird to see a self-described leftist like Freddie say spend so little time (if any, really), on the material conditions of mental illness, homelessness, and addiction, and how these things relate to crime, and what sorts of solutions they suggest, and just say, “Put ’em away” (with a little jab at criminal justice activists thrown in), but maybe that’s just me.

          I haven’t read through the comments here. Have people gone beyond prejudice and fearmongering? Is there any talk of the details of a solution? Has anyone pointed to good resources on the topic?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chris
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            says:

            I don’t think Freddie really says what he wants, in any detail, or how it would work

            As criticisms of Marxists go, I’ve seen less accurate.

            Anyway, do we remember that Freddie is also nuts? Like, this was a big deal a few years back? Most of the criticisms of Freddie usually included that he’s clinically insane when he’s not on his meds until, it seems, this very column?Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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              A lot of us do remember that Freddie has had mental health issues. I don’t know enough about his current condition to say, in the present tense, that he’s nuts, and I doubt most of the rest of us know more. I also don’t remember more than an occasional mention of his past mental health issues in past criticism, certainly nothing recent enough to qualify as “until, it seems, this very column.” I suspect that the reason it hasn’t come up more often or recently is simple decency.Report

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