52 thoughts on “The Statistical Side of Immigration

  1. I think the best solution for I immigration is to vastly expand legal immigration to make illegal crossing less attractive, but we don’t seem to have the political will for it.

    But imagine if instead of getting the money to pay coyotes, people that wanted to come here could focus on learning English or whatever as the best way to get here.Report

    1. While we’re wishing for ponies, the single best solution for abortion is to make birth control available to anyone who wants it free of charge.

      But in both cases, the people who screech about it the loudest hate the solution as much as the problem.Report

    2. This would be the logical solution but it isn’t the political popular one. The politically popular opinion is that countries get to control their borders and who is in and who is outside the citizenship club as these are traditional powers vested in polities.Report

  2. One thing that I don’t like about these statistics is the whole “hide the ball” kinda thing going on how we are talking about undocumented visitors in one second and then talking about H1B Visa holders the next and just saying “immigrants” both times.

    Immigrants sneak here over the border and work at Google!

    Besides, if you eat dino nuggies, your lifestyle depends on undocumented visitors making less than minimum wage. H1B holders have better degrees than the average Native-Born American as well. The median American doesn’t have a college degree at all and most H1B holders do!

    While technically true… it feels like a lot of using the same word to obfuscate rather than to illuminate.Report

          1. Do you remember saying “That is indeed a problem. Propose a solution.”?

            I ask because your comment here seems to have forgotten the “That is indeed a problem.” part of what you said mere minutes ago.Report

              1. What does “the whole “hide the ball” kinda thing going on how we are talking about undocumented visitors in one second and then talking about H1B Visa holders the next and just saying “immigrants” both times” have to do with employers?Report

              2. Well, I’d like to hammer out that we’re talking about the same thing, first.

                If I have complaints about illegal immigration, er, “undocumented visiting”, I’d like to not have to acknowledge how many college degrees that H1B visa holders have compared to people in the projects and how much less likely they are to commit crime than those people as well.

                Even if the statistics demonstrate that both things are true.Report

    1. It’s all just obfuscation for what is really a motte and bailey. The motte is that our legal immigration system is a total mess, that our status as a highly desirable destination for immigrants (especially the skilled) is a huge national advantage that we’re failing to fully exploit, and that unhinged xenophobia poses a risk of screwing it all up. The bailey is that those, frankly only tangentially connected things, require us to tolerate a situation where anyone with the wherewithal can walk in at any time and be paroled indefinitely into the country and/or become the unwitting hostages of big business in their ongoing efforts to skirt the law.Report

      1. Again, the mess could be solved by massively increasing the allowed immigration.

        But I guarantee you that the people screaming about illegal immigration will oppose that with equal ferocity.Report

        1. There are so many devils in those details I am not sure it qualifies as a solution. However I can agree with you that those that scream loudest are also the ones who have continuously refused to take yes for an answer whenever it has been offered.Report

        2. I’m totally cool with a massive expansion of legal immigration, specifically in the skill/job areas that we most need to fill. But somehow I think that change would come first and the second, promising to tighten the border to reduce illegal immigration, will never come about.Report

          1. What if they were one and the same?

            That legalizing the natural flow of laborers into the county reduces the flow of illegal laborers?Report

            1. Eh, the benefits of *UNDOCUMENTED* laborers include the ability of employers to engage in wage theft and pass the savings on to you.

              For example: Your dino nuggies.

              Documenting these laborers takes that particular benefit away.Report

              1. Then its a deal;

                We massively increase the number of work visas, while enacting draconian measures on employers who hire undocumented workers.Report

              2. Which is why the issue is a perpetually f’d up as it is. You aren’t really willing to demand changes to the system because they might change your lifestyle. Neither are millions of others. Which means the undocumented remain, performing critical economic functions, becoming more American by the day, but hiding and fearful nonetheless because they are a “perfect” target for demagogues.Report

              3. I care because my faith calls me to care. I care because I have relatives in historically oppressed communities in the US. I care because the undocumented are humans and deserving of better. I care because the current system is being exploited by politicians and oligarchs in the US to further erode my liberties.

                Why don’t you care?

                That aside – the H1B holders are a fraction of the immigrant community in the US. Take them all away – the H1Bs – and you still need immigrants to build your houses and roads, process your poultry, clean your business, mow your lawn and care for your children. This ludicrious notion that expanding the H1B program will solve undocumented migrant issues ignores the vast numbers involved here and the economic sectors impacted.Report

              4. You can’t legislate morality, pal.

                Why don’t you care?

                Because I still need immigrants to build my houses and roads, process my poultry, clean my business, mow my lawn and care for my children and it’d cost too much to have this done for the wages that Americans would work for under the conditions that Americans would demand.

                We’ve been over this a hundred times.

                Should I do a better job of pretending to care and deflect by blaming Republicans for just not demanding e-verify and permitting more H1B visas?Report

              5. “You do know you’d still likely get immigrants to do that work for similar ages by creating a system to allow them in legally, right?”

                You’re aware that it’s illegal to pay someone that little, right?Report

            1. That’s a subcategory of “illegal immigration”. I’m cool with closing that loophole. Look, we got a lot of federal employees who don’t do much productive work (based upon the one I worked with in prior jobs). Repurpose those jobs.Report

              1. Yea the fact that visa overstays dwarf the numbers at the border isn’t particularly important. We’re still talking about enormous numbers of people in both categories.Report

  3. None of this means that I am for open borders or don’t feel the need for border security, however. I’m pro-immigration, but I’m also pro-border security.

    There too we have statistics. What do they tell you?Report

  4. What a weird article and a weird way to frame it. You come in here quoting Reagan and saying “both sides are talking past each other” but then essentially lay out the platform a lot of Democrats actually advocate for. Only one “side” is fucking up the immigration thing and making it a combative thing, pushing the overton window further and further to the right. Only one “side” embraces a person who says Mexicans are rapists and murderers and thinks we’re being “overrun by immigrants”. Only one “side” is consistently tying things like foreign and domestic policy to border legislation.

    Its the republicans.

    Coming in here and saying both “sides” are “talking past each other” is a dishonest and duplicitous way to frame a very serious issue which is at the very core of the problems we have with immigration policy. The sides aren’t talking past each other, people like you are framing this to make the anti immigration arguments seem reasonable to the uninformed by equivocating on what each “side” wants. If you are pro immigration and immigration reform stop calling yourself a conservative, and if you’re going to say you’re a conservative and care about those policies, then stop pretending you’re pro immigration.

    Even by the very articles and data you cite, you can’t be correct and be a conservative on this issue.

    I also cringe when you say a 1st generation Mexican immigrant is “living the Americna dream” by signing up to join the military that has historically been used to hurt his ancestors, but you’re also a guy who cited Reagan so my expectations shouldn’t be TOO high there.Report

    1. “I also cringe when you say a 1st generation Mexican immigrant is “living the Americna dream” by signing up to join the military that has historically been used to hurt his ancestors”

      it’s been a minute since the Rough Riders were around, broReport

  5. A modest proposal to move the border south… not all the way to Mexico City (yet)… Monterey to Mazatlan and, well, Baja. Significantly spur investment in Greater America… new citizens… new political dynamics… new resources! Protect our new citizens with US labor and economic Laws! Growth without the deadloss of inefficient Mexican Government(s). Wins for everyone!Report

  6. A large part of the illegal immigration problem would go away if, as Bush Ii proposed, the USA would allow again large numbers of visas for seasonal or temporary migrants.

    The reality is that many illegal immigrants would rather come to the USA for six or nine months a year, work, save money, and go back home, where their hard earned dollars would purchase a better quality of life for them. After enough years doing it, they would have enough money to have a house andset up a business in their hometown, and retire and grow old there. Their families will also stay home, reducing the need for schools, medical services, etc.

    In the 50s, 60s, and 70s that used to be the pattern, but when crossing the border became difficult and dangerous, men could no longer cross for seasonal work. Once inside the USA , it was too dangerous and difficult and expensive to go back home. So instead, they brought their families and those that used to be temporary became permanent migrants.

    Seasonal work visas would be the preferred solution of most illegal migrants as well as most low wage jobs US employers. But solving problems not in the interest of many politicians, so they make sure problems don’t get solved.Report

    1. Yep. I heard a story on NPR a couple of years ago that a farmer in the US who wants to legally “import” seasonal workers has to submit each worker by name and credentials to ICE/CBP 18-24 months before said farmer needs them. And at the time there were visas to cover maybe a quarter of migrant workers already in the field. These things are fixable.Report

    2. When I worked at the restaurant, we had a bunch of guys who lived 8 to a 2-bedroom apartment. They worked hard for six months then went home for six months. Remittances, man.Report

      1. Colorado Gov. Polis recently signed a state law that overrides local ordinances about limits on non-family sharing living quarters. The city of Fort Collins is really pissed off about it. Eight students in two-bedroom places generate a disproportionately high number of police calls.Report

        1. These guys probably could have gotten busted for weed, but they didn’t need a whole lot of entertainment otherwise.

          They worked their butts off, watched a hand-me-down television, smoked, and then went home. It was always sad to see them go and great to have them come back.

          The only natives we could get to work for those wages were alcoholics.Report

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