Blame America First

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

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46 Responses

  1. InMD
    Ignored
    says:

    I respect some of the criticisms here but it also epitomizes why the non-MAGA GOP is totally lost and is going to remain so for quite some time. Run a search in this piece and the most glaring word that doesn’t turn up is ‘Iraq.’ That’s the only word anyone needs to know to understand why the old establishment, and old ideas have zero credibility on these issues, including among lots of rank and file conservatives that are now firmly MAGA. Until more responsible conservatives and/or the GOP come up with a set of ideas that aren’t rightly associated with idiotic adventurism, overreach, and catastrophe they can expect more of this.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
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      says:

      I don’t understand this.
      The Iraq debacle can’t explain the pro-Putin sentiments of the GOP.

      This is because what we are seeing isn’t a principled anti-interventionist idea. The MAGAs will casually mention an invasion of Mexico in the same breath as the dismantling of NATO.

      What we are seeing is the utter rejection of democracy and the rule of law in favor of dictatorship and ethno-nationalism.Report

      • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
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        says:

        I think that’s what’s filled the void. My point is that a bunch of really disastrous actual policy decisions by the respectable Republican establishment is what opened the door. That’s also the reason posts like this that amount to asking ‘why can’t we just go back to the conservatism of 20 years ago’ have no pull among the people it would need to. Getting to something closer to that would require an admission of failure, even if just deep down and behind closed doors, that no one is ready to make.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
          Ignored
          says:

          You’re missing a logical thread so it becomes a non-sequitur.

          “The MAGAs embrace of ethno-nationalism” doesn’t logically follow from “Iraq happened “Report

          • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
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            says:

            Not if you see ethno nationalism as a reversion to the mean.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
              Ignored
              says:

              Even if it isn’t a reversion to the mean, but some new direction, it still doesn’t logically follow from the premise.

              The disgrace of the neo-con establishment opened the door to a million choices, but MAGAs chose this one above all others.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Do you mean deductively or inductively?

                Because, sure, deductively, it does not follow that we should go back to the old thing just because the new thing does not work.

                But, inductively, you’d better have a better counter-argument to “lets go back to the thing that works” than “that’s not a deductive argument!”Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                It doesn’t logically follow in any sense.

                There are a million policy preferences that could have been chosen after the Iraq debacle, but MAGAs chose this one.

                Freely, they discarded every other possible choice, and settled on ethno-nationalism.

                No one forced them, it wasn’t some weird law of the universe, it wasn’t inevitable, but they made a choice.
                They didn’t have to choose between “Go back to the old thing” and “Continue with the Iraq debacle”.

                They could have chosen to embrace democracy and rule of law, but they freely chose to embrace dictatorship and corruption.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                “This isn’t working, let’s go back to the thing that did” doesn’t logically follow in *ANY* sense?

                I think that you’re using the word “logically” differently than I am.

                Like, I’m deliberately using “logically” to include “inductive” and you seem to be deliberately excluding it even after it’s been pointed out that it can include “inductive”.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Ethno-nationalism never worked.
                Dictatorship never worked.
                Corruption never worked.

                This is why the Enlightenment succeeded.

                But thanks for saying the quiet part out loud.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Yeah, there are a lot of people who confuse the 80’s with Nazi Germany.

                It’s weird.Report

              • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                I’m not really sure whether any of these things are correct, especially one and three, and the devil in the details. There are several countries that are not exactly multi-cultural as understand by American standards but can’t be seen as failures like Japan and South Korea. The Western Left also has a bad tendency to overlook ethno-nationalism when coming from groups they like and directed against groups they aren’t that fond of like Arab ethno-nationalism against Jews in the name of anti-imperialism.

                Likewise, the end of certain “corrupt” features in America politics like ear-marking and pork barrel politics made American government more dysfunctional because there was less of incentive for individual politicians to cooperate to get the money. The old machines were corrupt as hell but also did something of a better job running the big cities than the clean progressives.Report

              • InMD in reply to LeeEsq
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                says:

                Ethno nationalism is an easy go-to in the absence of some other force for solidarity and it’s not that surprising that some of it has bubbled up given the failures of the GOP establishment. However I also think you’re right that it isn’t the end of the world, depending on how it is channeled and understands its mission. The bones of European and East Asian welfare states that left of center Americans envy are ethno nationalism, just as were the horrors of the 20th century.

                With respect to the OP I think what has filled the void even more than ethno nationalism is conservative info-tainment. Which is why citing Rush Limbaugh is IMO pretty ironic. His schtick is among the first seeds of MAGA and once respectable conservatism fell apart Rush and people like him are what stepped in. That’s the exact path Trump himself followed once he became a media personality.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq
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                says:

                I don’t think that Japan and MAGA are both examples of ethnonationalism, without stretching the boundaries of the word beyond reason.

                Likewise with using earmarks and Trumpian corruption in the same breath.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                I would call Japan an example of ethnonationalism and MAGA more of a cult.

                RE: corruption

                Definition is… “dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.”

                Not sure how earmarks don’t get flagged as “corrupt”.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter
                Ignored
                says:

                Earmarks were out in the open and plain to understand even if you didn’t like them. Now we have “directed appropriations” which accomplish the same goals for the same people but in much less transparent language. Seems to me that’s more corrupt.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                What we’re seeing is emotion and tribal thinking win over rationality. “Rule of Law” means “Trump should be in prison and my side loses”.

                These sorts of impulses are always there. Recently the media has been encouraging them via the constant outrage spinning. Trump does that really well too.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                Yes, the rule of law means that after being given a fair trial and adequate defense and being convicted, Trump may go to jail.
                If you think any of those things aren’t happening feel free to tell us why.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                My point isn’t that they’re not happening, my point is we should expect some push back from people that don’t want to see it.

                I have zero sympathy for Trump or his supporters.

                Having said that… if we use the gov to right all historical injustices (i.e. promote one group over others), then we should expect those “other groups” to do the same thing and push back.

                You can use the gov to create a level playing field, or you can use it to have “equal” outcomes, but you can’t do both of those.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Yea but that’s not what the OP is about. The OP is asking why things changed, and implicitly as I read it, why they can’t just go back. My comment is in response to those questions, and really the second one in particular.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to InMD
      Ignored
      says:

      I don’t actually think anyone cares about Iraq anymore.

      The issue, from what I’ve seen, is that anyone who didn’t mouth pro-Trump slogans between 2016 and 2022 got kicked out of anything useful, and anyone who’s left just gets needled with “well YEAH but you USED to be a Trump supporter, you USED to be involved with his administration, you USED to be on his side”, and it doesn’t matter what they do now because they USED to. Growth, change, seen the light? Nah, we don’t believe in that kind of crap, what you used to be is what you really were all along and still are and will be forever.

      (I’d say “then they wonder why there aren’t any reasonable moderate Republicans” but actually they don’t, they like having Republicans be crazy racist whackoes because that justifies not talking to them.)Report

      • InMD in reply to DensityDuck
        Ignored
        says:

        See my response to Chip. I don’t think it’s about Iraq in the sense that people are still thinking about that particular issue. It’s about Iraq in the sense that that’s where the people the OP is pining for thoroughly discredited themselves in such a comprehensive way that they are no longer taken seriously even among their own party. That didn’t just happen out of nowhere.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to InMD
      Ignored
      says:

      Yeah. There’s a failure to be able to say “yeah, that was a mistake”.

      Not that it’s important to come out with slides and explain “here is how we were lied to” with glossy photos and circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one but just the ability to say “hey, we learned a few things and we understand that this was a screwup”.

      Something more recently relevant might be Afghanistan.

      You know how Biden pulled out and then the Taliban was back in charge after less than a week?

      That was a *MASSIVE* failure. A *HUGE* one.

      This is not an attack on Biden. It is an attack on the establishment that does stuff like “lie to the president for years”. We never had a post-mortem on why Afghanistan was a basketcase. Heck, if the Taliban would have taken over a week after we left, that’d be a good reason to leave the day after Osama was finally killed.

      But since the people responsible for maintaining the basket are still sitting at their desks getting paid…

      Well, I don’t blame them for not trusting the old establishment.Report

      • InMD in reply to Jaybird
        Ignored
        says:

        This is a lot closer to where I am. And yet people ask why can’t we just go back to John McCain or Mitt Romney or whoever. Well….Report

      • Damon in reply to Jaybird
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        says:

        The problem with afganistan was one of two issues. We were not there long enough or were there to short a time. You need to be there for a generation to ensure those who’s heart and minds won’t change die off, ie the old guard. We were there 20 years. We needed to be there 30 or more. So, it was doomed to failure. No one told the public we’re going to be there 30 years or more and got buy in. And we bailed and it all fell apart.

        Even staying 30 years might not have been enough. It is the graveyard of empires.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Damon
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          says:

          Sure, fine, whatever.

          Why hasn’t a grownup said this? Why is it only the kiddos on the webpages saying it?Report

          • Damon in reply to Jaybird
            Ignored
            says:

            Because people are motivated by incentives. What could possibly be a response from the public if the president said “we’re going into Afghanistan and going to stay there for 3-5 decades. It’ll cost 4 trillion dollars, but it’s necessary? One response might be “yes, we need to do this.” The other might be “screw that, we should spend that money on Americans”. Another might be “Nuke the bastards”. Getting buy in from the pubic is the last thing politicians and policy makers want to be subject to.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
            Ignored
            says:

            The grown up’s did say it but ignored.Report

  2. DensityDuck
    Ignored
    says:

    “Censorship is prohibiting citizens from expressing themselves, particularly when it comes to expressing disagreement with the government”

    no, no, you forgot to say “the government”, the line is “censorship is the government prohibiting citizens from expressing themselves”, it’s very important that you emphasize to everyone that censorship is something only the government can do, and that when, e.g., the Hugo Awards de-list every work that’s pro-LGBT, that’s just a private organization determining what sorts of communications it wants to be associated with and has nothing at all to do with the Chinese government’s position on gay people.Report

  3. Pinky
    Ignored
    says:

    In defense of adventurism:

    First of all, I think that our national discussion, a candidate’s stated policy, and an administration’s actions are three completely unrelated things. Both parties have hawks and doves. This is something that independent or swing voters can swing on, so it’s definitely an issue that counts, but on a practical level most presidential terms go differently than expected, and usually worse (because no one expects problems, and every president is egotistical enough to think that the only reason there’s no peace in the Middle East is because they haven’t been at the table).

    With that as a background, I’d say that W and Republican hawks in general failed to defend their positions during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. They were both just wars in my assessment. Iraq was mishandled at first. But the biggest problem we had was that Powell’s “you break it, you bought it” doctrine made mission creep inevitable. Sometimes the world’s superpower should just go in and break stuff and leave. But W never really engaged with his critics, and conservatives have to keep making the same arguments every day or people assume the liberals are right. So we reached a point where “hawk” became “neocon”, and that meant evil. What could have been health skepticism toward adventurism became an unhealthy isolationism.

    There’s kind of a “nationalist issues” stew: isolationism, anti-trade, pro-union, anti-immigrant, government aid, English (in our case) only, racism, maybe a few other things. Trump played the anti-trade and anti-immigrant stance (which led to increased trade and immigration, but that’s another story). His opponents kept hearing racism, but it wasn’t there. The pro-Putin stuff was always a pose, and the Trump administration was consistently stronger against Russia than either Obama or Biden. But it caught on.

    One consistent problem in post-WWII foreign policy is that we always pull the rug out from funding our natural allies. I hate that we’re doing it right now, just like I always hate it. It doesn’t have to happen, but it always does.Report

    • InMD in reply to Pinky
      Ignored
      says:

      I think you let W. and the former era of national security hawks off way too easily. It’s not only that the broader establishment never engaged with its critics (though they didn’t), or even that ‘you break it you bought it’ ensured failure (look at Obama supporting the overthrow of Gaddaffi, that was a break it and leave that no one could rightly call successful). It’s that they objectively got it so wrong as to not only prove the anti-war left (way more) right than they were, they also proved the Rand Paul, Pat Buchanan, and other latent right wing isolationist thinkers whose ideas had been marginalized for decades to be (way more) right than they were. And since then no one has come back with a different vision of foreign policy that both learns from the past errors while still understanding the value the small-l liberal vision of the world order provides to Americans.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD
        Ignored
        says:

        And since then no one has come back with a different vision of foreign policy that both learns from the past errors while still understanding the value the small-l liberal vision of the world order provides to Americans.

        Let me introduce you to Joe Biden.

        He withdrew from the Afghanistan misadventure, and also is giving support to the world order of democracy and self-determination.

        Check him out!
        https://joebiden.com/Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
          Ignored
          says:

          IMHO Joe has it right on both the Ukraine (give them a blank check’s worth of our old gear) and Israel (play Jimmy Cricket to try to keep them from doing self destructive things but know we can’t make choices for them).

          If Israel’s peace wing takes over we’ll be there to try to settle issues (we’ll likely fail again but whatever).

          Ukraine is fighting for their people to not be abused. Russia is paying a lot for their bad actions (including the ones not in Ukraine).Report

        • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels
          Ignored
          says:

          You don’t have to convince me. But the topic of the OP is what happened to the GOP/right.Report

      • Pinky in reply to InMD
        Ignored
        says:

        I’d agree with most of that. I think the vision is there, I mean it’s the same one that both parties had post-WWII, but the Republicans haven’t defended it. I don’t think that the principles of the hawks were wrong though, so much as executed badly. Radical Islam was always going to be a threat to world security.Report

  4. DavidTC
    Ignored
    says:

    The funny thing is that most of the partisans go right along with it. Republicans are happy to become an anti-war (even when the US isn’t involved) party rather than one that promotes the defense of freedom

    Republicans are not anti-war, Republicans are anti-international-order of any sort. Because they are almost entirely in the pocket of Russians at this point, and Russia has been working for decades to undermine the mere _idea_ of any sort of international order.

    And it’s easy to pretend it’s just a struggle with America, except that Russia will happily undermine any sort of international order and norms, usually by inflaming the far right in ways that are entirely predictable and observable, but the media just completely ignores or even plays along with. Hell, Russia greatly influenced the Brexit referendum and arguably pushed that to success, and 99% of the people the US don’t even know that.

    Why? Because Russia’s goals are basically to undo the global order set up after WWII, where countries at least _generally_ respond to horrific actions by other countries…well, horribly actions by non-allies, but they did at least try to reel in their allies to some level.

    Russia wants a world where any country can behave however it wants, both internally and externally, and get no pushback from the rest of the world.

    while Democrats don’t seem to mind assuming the mantle of defenders of international law (with the exception of the pro-Palestinian factions). That says a lot about the mindset and priorities of the parties

    Or maybe the pro-Palestinians Democrats just hold Israel, our ally, up to the same international laws that others get held up to, and want us to use the exact same carrot and stick approach we use towards other countries, where they have to obey international law to get our support.

    There’s a reason why defenders of Israel have started using ‘rules-based international order’ instead of international law…international law already exists and Israel objectively constantly violates it in quite a lot of way, whereas if you just say ‘rule-based international order’, you get to invent whatever that mean and who it applies to.

    And, as always, be wary of people claiming they are maintaining _order_ instead of enforcing _the law_, because what that always means is ‘We merely exist to protect existing systems and power dynamics and don’t even vaguely think we need to behave in a just and impartial manner’. That’s not to say that saying they are ‘enforcing the law’ is always better, but there is at least some actual objective text that says what should be, whereas ‘order’ is nonsense.Report

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