Of Course They Cheered The Murders

Michael Hirschbrunnen

Michael Hirschbrunnen is a former mainstream journalist who now works in finance. He also has a Substack, dedicated to presenting rightwing ideas to a leftwing audience.

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136 Responses

  1. Dark Matter
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    says:

    It’s tribal.
    My side is the white hats, what they do, by definition, is “good”.
    The other side is the black hats.

    Process doesn’t matter.
    Law or rule of law doesn’t matter.Report

  2. LeeEsq
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    says:

    The inability to say anything about the 1,400 murdered Jews and jump straight into Pro-Palestinian rallies and blaming everything on Israel was extremely depressing to diaspora Jews. This essay is being passed around on social media and reflects what I think are common feelings:

    https://joshgilmansblog.wordpress.com/2023/10/13/why-you-might-have-lost-all-your-jewish-friends-this-week-and-didnt-even-know-it/

    There was a big tendency in the West to indulge in the Palestinian hardliners because nobody but Jews took Hamas seriously. Then the Simchat Torah massacre happened and Hamas was proved to be serious in their genocidal statements. This put Pro-Palestinian Westerners in a bind. They could either reevaluate their beliefs or double down. I’ve seen most reevaluate their beliefs but most are choosing to double down.Report

  3. PD Shaw
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    says:

    One thing about John Brown that doesn’t seem to get discussed is how much he inspired John Wilkes Booth. Booth joined a militia in the wake of the raid on Harper’s Ferry and guarded Booth and watched his execution with a strange sort of admiration mingled with contempt. He accumulated souvenirs, a piece of wood from a box that contained Brown’s coffin and one of the pikes Brown had given freed slaves.

    Booth thought Brown was one of the grandest characters of the century, he described him as “that rugged old hero.” He seems to have admired Booth’s courage and will to answer a higher calling. After killing Lincoln, he wrote: “If BROWN were living I doubt whether he himself would set slavery against the Union.” I think he saw Brown as a man of action, whereas Lincoln was some frumpy, odd-looking legal clerk working to corrupt institutions: “open force is holier than hidden craft. The Lion is more noble than the fox.”Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to PD Shaw
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      says:

      This is one thing that binds together all sorts of extremist revolutionary groups, that they see themselves as actors in a great drama.

      The Flight 93 essay, the “By Any Means Necessary” rhetoric are echoes of the Fascist and Communist writings.Report

  4. Doctor Jay
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    says:

    On the internet, you can find any opinion you are looking for. No matter what it is, it’s someone’s kink. Remember that?

    So, I’m not going to be interested in defending or discussing some goofy idea coming from people I’ve never heard of, and who don’t represent me. If you had quoted my Senator or something, that would be different. And by the way, I stopped reading left-leaning sites that love digging up some obscure person who said something objectionable. It’s just outrage clickbait, it doesn’t enhance my life.

    For the record, I am a pacifist. This is religious in origin. I come from a dissenting denomination. I do not expect the government to endorse my views or inscribe my morals in law. Governments can’t be pacifistic.

    I have one small vague reason to support Israel over Hamas. Israel can make a claim to be acting on behalf of its people, whereas Hamas does not appear to care at all about the non-Hamas Palestinians. That’s painful, because I despise Netanyahu, but it looks like he might be toast soon.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Doctor Jay
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      says:

      These aren’t just people ranting and raving on the Internet. They are having protests that celebrated the Simchat Torah massacre all around the world. The day after the Simchat Torah massacre, they were out in force saying “the Israelis fished and fished around” or worse. All of them put the entirety of the blame on Israel. You might take it seriously but for Jews around the world this looked like a celebration of the mass murder of the Jews. We have to take this seriously.Report

  5. Damon
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    says:

    No one seems to remember that, historically, revolutionary movements end up putting their own supporters up against the wall after everyone else from the opposition. Pawns are always sacrificed. You’re just a pawn.Report

  6. Jaybird
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    says:

    You’re looking at it through the lens of morality. You shouldn’t.

    Look at it through the lens of aesthetics and it will make a *LOT* more sense.

    Socialists have delightful aesthetics. Socialist murders? Downright sexy. For the most part, the targets were people with awful aesthetics.

    Israel has downright *HORRIBLE* aesthetics. You’ve got the South Africa thing, the Jim Crow thing… you think that a socialist Kibbutz can make up for that? A dance party on the border of Gaza? Heck, imagine a slave revolt burning down a house holding a Southern Debutante Ball. Woo! Great aesthetics!

    The lens of morality doesn’t even come into it.

    Are you on the side of the fashionable?
    Or do you prefer the unfashionable?Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      Ouch. Very good post. I flinch at it though.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      This theory, if followed, leads to some interesting places.

      Like, what other sorts of violence are fashionable? Violence where, when shown on tv or movie screens, makes audiences cheer?Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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        says:

        Mostly Peaceful Protests, of course.

        Seriously, I am becoming more and more suspicious that you’re still a Reagan voter at heart and doing everything you possibly can to make “the progressives” look myopic and silly.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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          says:

          Keep going.
          Any other examples?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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            says:

            The Seattle WTO protests.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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              says:

              Can anyone here help out?

              Provide some examples of violence that are considered fashionable or popular.

              Like if a Hollywood studio were to aim at a mass market.

              Lets crowdsource this.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                I did *NOT* use the word “popular”. I used the word “fashionable”.

                The two words do not mean the same thing and I was deliberately *AVOIDING* the use of the word “popular”.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Oh my mistake!

                So when you say “fashionable” do you mean fashionable among a certain demographic of people, not the public at large?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                You need definitions for all of my terms? I can throw something together.

                But, yeah, sure. It’s only fashionable among a certain demographic of people. If it were everywhere, it would merely become “popular”.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I didn’t think it was a difficult question but yeah, tell us the difference between “fashionable” and “popular”.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Do you mind if I use an explanation of “Fashion” found from Pop Culture?

                Here is Meryl Streep explaining how “Fashion” trickles down and becomes “Popular”.

                But one of the things about “Fashion” is that it is *NOT* what is popular. By the time it becomes “popular”, it is tired and sad. Wal-Mart. Dollar General.

                So, yes. Among a certain demographic of people.

                In this case, the certain demographic includes the “elite”, “college educated” (but not, you know, community colleges), and “cosmopolitan”. And it absolutely excludes hoi polloi.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Ahh very helpful.

                Does the “cosmopolitan elite” include Ivy League educated members of government and corporations?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                “The Man” is not fashionable.

                So the “cosmopolitan elite” may include people who are fashionable… but if you’re asking “Wow, sounds like Davis Polk is fashionable, huh?”, let me tell you now:

                It isn’t.
                It’s merely rich and elite.
                I imagine that they throw parties that have fashionable people show up, though.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                In the Meryl Streep example, the dictates of the elite trickled down to become popular.

                That their selection of a shade of blue would trickle down from Paris runway to a lawyer at Davis Polk, then ultimately to Andy shopping at the tragic bargain bin.

                Does that happen with this group of “cosmopolitan elites”, that their pro-Hamas views trickle down through the strata of society to become popular with the common folk?

                In other words, are these people actually opinion-shapers of American society?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                It depends on whether you see the trickling down to journalists as part of that.

                I mean… at one point in the past, it would have been part of that.

                But now we’re in a place where the squares at David Polk are actively pushing back against a fairly fashionable position. I mean, pushing back *HARD*.

                As only The Man can.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I’m trying to think of an example where the views of radical leftists like these have ever trickled down to become popular.

                But I know that other radical ideas, such as the idea that we should torture prisoners have started out in small elite groups of opinion-shapers and trickled down to where they are now accepted by a large number of people who shop at the tragic bargain bin.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Are you familiar with Tom Wolfe?

                He wrote books. One of them was about the phenomenon we’re discussing.

                Note: The fact that you now are capable of seeing the distinction between “fashionable” and “popular” is pretty much what I was shooting for. I’m glad we hammered it out.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Me too.
                Tell me, which ideas of the elite opinion shapers of the Black Panthers trickled down and become popular?

                I mean, it started with them, then Leonard Bernstein, then what happened?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                They don’t necessarily become popular. Some do…

                But when something becomes popular, it is no longer *FASHIONABLE*.

                This is about the distinction between “fashion” and “popular”.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                So let me go back to my starting comment about applying this theory to other circumstances.

                “The reason your morality-based argument against murdering police officers and a sitting Vice President fails, is that it is up against aesthetics.

                Look at it through the lens of aesthetics and it will make a *LOT* more sense.

                Anti-democracy people like the Claremont Institute, Harvard professor Adrien Vermeule and the rest of the MAGAs have delightful aesthetics. They are latter day Patriots, heirs of Thomas Paine and the Boston tea Party.

                Anti-liberal murders? Downright sexy. For the most part, the targets were people with awful aesthetics. Deep State Operatives, and urban cosmopolitans who were against Real Americans and the restoration of virtue.

                Smashing into the Capitol and trying to murder the members of government?
                Heck, imagine a slave revolt burning down a house holding a Southern Debutante Ball. Woo! Great aesthetics!

                The lens of morality doesn’t even come into it.

                Are you on the side of the fashionable?
                Or do you prefer the unfashionable?”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Anti-democracy people like the Claremont Institute, Harvard professor Adrien Vermeule and the rest of the MAGAs have delightful aesthetics. They are latter day Patriots, heirs of Thomas Paine and the Boston tea Party.

                This is obviously *FALSE*, though.

                Try finding a true statement.

                Anti-liberal murders? Downright sexy. For the most part, the targets were people with awful aesthetics. Deep State Operatives, and urban cosmopolitans who were against Real Americans and the restoration of virtue.

                This is obviously *FALSE*, though.

                Try it with true statements.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Typing “Nuh UH” would have been easier.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                But saying “nu uh” would not have communicated that I am being serious.

                I can point to stuff like Che t-shirts if you want a silly example of aesthetic socialist murderers being signaled loudly.

                What’s your counter-example?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Wait, we’ve moved from an influential Meryl Streep type opinion-shaper to some kid wearing a tee shirt??

                Wouldn’t a logical and literal counter-example be a guy wearing an American flag tee shirt and MAGA hat beating up a police officer?

                But why are either of these people be considered a “cosmopolitan elite”?

                And doesn’t your example refute your own premise?

                I mean, kids have been wearing Che tee shirts since Che was alive and yet none of Che’s ideas have trickled down like your theory says it should.

                Che tee shirt guy has got to be the most inept opinion-shaper ever.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                But it’s — FASHION! And if your politics are not really politics but aesthetics, that’s what counts.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Yes. Unironically.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                You obviously have no idea what you’re agreeing to. But I’ll take it anyway.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Eh, I’m one of the old school “let’s come up with a set of rules and a set of meta-rules to help deal with rules-gaming and meta-meta-rules to help deal with meta-rules-gaming” guys.

                The whole “aesthetics” thing explains why it’s easier to forgive someone for being a tankie at 20 than someone being a neo-nazi at 20.

                Let’s face it. The tankie just didn’t know any better.

                Even now, you can find a bunch of people explaining that the Harvard Student Group Joint Statement Signatories just didn’t know any better and it shouldn’t be held against them.

                Those poor kids.

                (Hey, are you close enough to HR at your law firm to know whether they’ve got a position on hiring kids who signed onto that statement?)Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Thanks for the confirmation. And I have no idea what policy, if any, we have on such issues.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Do you care whether your firm would hire one of these kids enough to ask?

                Would asking make waves? I could see not wanting to make waves.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                If I thought I had anything useful to say on this topic, I would have said it by now.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Well, utility is only one measure.

                I’m more curious as to whether the whole “we’re not hiring those people” has trickled down to more firms than those that get their press releases immediately published by the newspaper.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                If mine does, you will surely hear about it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Okay, so they haven’t yet.

                Fair enough.

                Has the topic even come up when you talk to other people at the office? Between conversations about the game on Saturday or the upcoming bullcrap case that freakin Katyal is going to be arguing against you guys?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I haven’t talked to people at the office about this, for reasons I’ve already given, and don’t know what, if anything, they’re saying to each other. And as far as I know, Neal Kaytal doesn’t have any cases against usReport

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Holy cow. When I walk into the cubefarm at work, I can’t open my pop before three people have come over asking me if I’ve heard about what happened in the Middle East yet and how they have opinions.

                Could be an east of the Mississippi/west of the Mississippi thing.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I’ve often wondered why you so often default to geographical explanations, like thinking it was an east coast thing to know something you didn’t about a very famous businessman. Maybe it’s just that my office is professional and people stick to their knitting. Or maybe it’s that I, and most of my colleagues, have offices rather than cubicles. Or that I am significantly older than most of my colleagues and have relatively little non-work conversation with them. (I was discussing Preet Bharara with one of the youngsters, and I told him that Preet was very funny and had obviously patterned his comedy style on Jack Benny. My colleague asked: “Who is Jack Benny?”) Or maybe I’m just unsocial. Though why anyone would care about any of this is beyond me.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Ouch! I mean, Jack Benny was before even my 60 year old time, but ouch.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                I’m not going to ask HR how racist you can be before they fire you. That in itself is a big red flag.

                My expectation is if it comes to HR’s attention that you’re doing this, then they will do something.

                The question then becomes how obvious was this “public endorsement” and what was endorsed.

                Are we talking Facebook or are we talking about something that’s not available on line?

                I know HR does care about people running around with verbal flamethrowers and it’s possible to get into trouble for a lot less.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Dark Matter
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                says:

                Oh, jeez. You need a better relationship with HR. I go into my HR office and open conversations by asking about drug testing.

                And *THEN* I ask “do we have a policy about hiring these knuckleheads? Or googling them first?”

                You know what? We have googled candidates in the past.

                Which strikes me as a “no duh” kind of position.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                You need a better relationship with HR.

                I don’t know where the red lines are and rather than experiment, I think little or no contact at all is safer.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Do you care whether your firm would hire one of these kids enough to ask?

                Supporting targeted mass murder of civilians is such a red flag it’s hard to move past that.

                If you’re a Fortune 500, what do you to do? Tell HR “it’s ok if the civilians are Jewish”?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                No, Chip. We’re still hammering out the difference between “fashionable” and “popular”.

                Wouldn’t a logical and literal counter-example be a guy wearing an American flag tee shirt and MAGA hat beating up a police officer?

                For what? Something *FASHIONABLE*?

                But why are either of these people be considered a “cosmopolitan elite”?

                The people may or may not be elite.

                But the embrace of Che is cosmopolitan in a way that the Thin Blue Line flag is not.

                And I find it odd that you don’t know that.

                yet none of Che’s ideas have trickled down like your theory says it should.

                To whom?

                Fashionable kids?
                Or everybody (thus making it popular)?

                Because it’s still fashionable.
                Even though, you know, it’s not popular.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                No you already hammered out what you mean by fashionable, remember?

                Its Meryl Streep telling us how she could with a wave of her hand alter the course of fashion .

                Its people who are influential, but only with the thin top strata of society, and when these ideas trickle down they get progressively less fashionable and more popular.

                Like, you told us this already!
                We all know exactly what you mean.

                I’m just pointing out that your own chosen examples (WTO protestors, a kid wearing a Che tee shirt, a campus Palestinian group) contradict that.

                Noe of those groups fit your premise, but the Claremont Institute does.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                No, you misunderstood.

                You were seeing “fashionable” and “popular” as something worth putting in the same sentence despite my only using one of the terms. I was attempting to get you to see that the two terms were *DIFFERENT*.

                Fashion is upstream from popular. Popular is downstream from fashion.

                Something that is fashionable will not necessarily become popular (though, sometimes, it will).

                Something that is popular will not always be able to trace its roots to something that is fashionable (though, sometimes, it will).

                But the aesthetics of “fashionable” are *COMPLETELY* different from the aesthetics of “popular” and a morality that is rooted in “aesthetics” will come across completely differently than one that is rooted in something vaguely unfashionable like some weird set of principles.

                And this kicked off when I used the term “fashionable” and you turned that into “fashionable or popular”.

                And “Fashionable or popular” is not what I mean when I say “fashionable”.

                In the Venn Diagram of “Fashionable/Popular”, I might even go so far as to say that while there is a somewhat small area of overlap between the two circles, I am not talking about both circles nor am I talking about the circle of fashionable including the area of overlap when I am discussing the phenomenon of politics based on aesthetics…

                Which includes such things as the whole Harvard students suddenly discovering that their performative politics can reflect upon themselves poorly enough to make The Man not want to hire them on little more than their aesthetic judgment.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                So.
                Fashionable groups may be rich, or poor.
                They may be powerful and influential, or weak and obscure;
                Their ideas may trickle down, or remain fringe;

                Is this correct?

                Because if so, then the Claremont Institute and 1/6 insurrectionists both fit that description.

                But obviously you don’t want that, so now you need to come up with a metric that separates the Harvard Palestinian professor from the Claremont Institute lecturer, the campus protestor from the MAGA rioter.

                Why is one “fashionable” while the other not?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                That’s reversing cause and effect.

                Violence the Left likes is “fashionable”.
                Violence the Left doesn’t like is “dangerous”.

                “Likes” normally means “my tribe does this”.
                “Dislikes” normally means “the other tribe does this or it’s done to my tribe”.

                So Rittenhouse was a dangerous “active shooter”, and the first guy he shot was “an innocent protester”. The objective facts don’t support any of that of course.

                BSDI which is why we have the right trying to soften Jan 6th.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Because if so, then the Claremont Institute and 1/6 insurrectionists both fit that description.

                And yet the Claremont Institute and the 1/6 Insurrectionists are both unfashionable.

                And that has nothing to do with what I “want”. Good Lord.

                I’m not fashionable or even adjacent to fashionable. I’m pretty sure that I couldn’t be fashionable if I tried.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Tell us why you think the Claremont Institute doesn’t fit your definition of fashionable.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Because it’s unfashionable in the real world. They’ve been affiliated with Ben freakin’ Shapiro for criminy’s sake.

                Seriously, it’s like you’re asking “Oh, the Claremont Institute isn’t cool?”

                No, Chip. The Claremont Institute isn’t cool.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                OK here we have what I’ve been looking for.

                The word you’re looking for is “cachet” .

                Contrary to your examples, “fashionable” in this usage doesn’t mean the example of Meryl Streep choosing next year’s color.

                Fashionable means having cultural cachet, coolness, hipness.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                It’s not merely coolness, though.

                The Captain America movie was “cool”. It was not “fashionable”.

                But if something is definitely *UN*cool (like Ben Shapiro!), then you can conclude that it is not “fashionable”.

                But, sure. If you can see how something could have cultural cachet without being “popular”, then that will probably work for me. We’ll see, I guess.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                It doesn’t mean popular, it doesn’t mean influential, it doesn’t mean powerful and it doesn’t even mean cool necessarily.

                You seem to only use fashionable to refer to things or groups you don’t like- WTO protestors, Hamas, or supporters Che tee shirt wearing students.
                Its a term of scorn and derision.

                Not an argument, just an observation.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                It *IS* influential. It *CAN* mean powerful.

                From where I sit, “fashionable” can be a term of derision. But it doesn’t have to be.

                From where you sit, it wouldn’t be one… I don’t think. But from where you sit, I can easily see how it’d look like one when the people where I sit use it.

                So yeah.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                Lets put your use of the word in parentheses.

                Levi’s 501 jeans are fashionable.
                Meaning they possess cultural cachet and are desirable and worthy of our admiration.

                Che Guevarra, the WTO protestors and Hamas supporters are “fashionable”.
                Meaning they possess cultural cachet but are unworthy of our admiration.

                Cultural cachet can be influential and powerful even if the holder itself isn’t.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                501s? The 1980’s called. They want their foreign policy back.

                “Okay, fine. Parachute pants.”

                They’re not fashion in the way that we were talking about in our pop culture example, were we?
                They’re certainly popular! Or were. Back when Bobby Brown was singing “My Prerogative”.

                Che is still fashionable, the WTO protests were fashionable at the time… I’m not sure many remember them, though… and Hamas does certainly seem to be fashionable among the Harvard kiddos. Or it was until many of them found out that The Man is more into “Consequence Culture” than “Free Speech Culture”.

                Maybe the kids who graduated with journalism degrees will take these lessons on to their jobs at the news production farm, maybe they won’t.

                Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
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                says:

                So here’s what’s interesting about cultural cachet- You can’t claim it for yourself.
                It has to be conferred upon you by others.

                Che didn’t do anything to develop his cachet, a million college lefties did that.

                In your analogy, Meryl Streep doesn’t just possess cultural cachet- she is the creator and dispenser of it. She decides which blouse will have it.

                In this particular case, the Hamas supporters aren’t Meryl Streep- they are the blouse!
                Someone else has conferred cultural cachet upon the campus Palestinian groups.

                Your scorn isn’t for them- your scorn is actually directed at those people, the ones who give campus radicals cultural cachet.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Sure.

                So we’ve hammered out the difference between “fashionable” and “popular” then?Report

      • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels
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        says:

        You realize that you are never going to get Jaybird to come out and type January 6th, don’t you?Report

        • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq
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          says:

          Oh, is that was he was going for?

          He should have just gone for “WHATABOUT JANUARY 6TH?” and seen whether I’d have bitten the bullet rather than asking for more examples of what we’re talking about.

          For the record, January 6th was *EXCEPTIONALLY* unfashionable.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq
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          says:

          I’m sure this will shock you, but the phrase “Influential Cosmopolitan Elites whose opinions trickle down and shape our culture” such as the Meryl Streep character doesn’t actually refer to people who are influential, elite, or whose opinions actually do trickle down and shape our culture, but instead really just refer to “People From The Tribe I Don’t Like”.

          They may actually be cosmopolitan though. Or at least read it.Report

      • rexknobus in reply to Chip Daniels
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        says:

        Boxing, football, army movies, Statham movies, January 6th for a large majority of Republicans. Am I missing a joke here?Report

    • Pinky in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      The article is making a normative argument, that it’s wrong. You’re making a positive argument, that it’s explainable. Both are reasonable. Only, as the positive guy, you lose the option of telling the author that he “shouldn’t” make his argument.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Pinky
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        says:

        Eh. It’s more of a “if you want to see why your moral argument is failing, you should look at it like this” argument.

        We don’t have a shared set of priors with the people with whom we’re opposed.

        Appeals to morality are going to come across as silly. “You shouldn’t support the Broncos! You should support Green Bay!”Report

        • Pinky in reply to Jaybird
          Ignored
          says:

          I think your point is valid. But the right and right have some shared priors, and appeals to morality are appropriate where either side is ignoring its morals.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Pinky
            Ignored
            says:

            Well, the whole hospital thing is doing a great job of marking out delineations.

            Is bombing a hospital something that ought to be condemned, no matter who does it?

            Absolutely. Absolutely!

            Now we wait for the “but”.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Jaybird
              Ignored
              says:

              What do you mean by delineations? Between the pro-Palestinian ends-justify-the-means people and the rest of us? That delineation is pretty obvious already – or at least to me, and I’d bet nearly everyone but Lee. We might see a phenomenon like the September 12th conservative, as people realize just how grotesque some of their allies are. But that’s more a matter of clarity rather than delineation, right?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Pinky
                Ignored
                says:

                Merely between the “THIS IS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE!” and the “well, you have to understand…” folks.

                See who gets which response!Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                When you say “delineation”, then, you mean the opposite. You’re talking about people obfuscating their deeply-held positions with situational justification, right? I mean, except for those who are going to look at the hospital and nope out of a pro-Palestinian position.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Pinky
                Ignored
                says:

                They’re not obfuscating it, though.

                You can immediately tell who is talking about Principle and who is wandering away to discussions about Context.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Right, and you can tell the difference between healthy and depressed people by whether they’re cheering or booing at a sports event.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                There’s a name for those “well you have to understand” people.

                They are called EVERYONE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION INCLUDING YOU, YES YOU.

                Every single person here, yes every single person, support the bombing of innocent women and children, depending on the context because well you have to understand.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                What are the circumstances under which you’re “well, you have to understand…” with a hospital being shelled?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                A city in Germany or Japan circa 1945.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                I don’t know how we make that scale to the current year.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Let me cut and paste:

                Is bombing a hospital something that ought to be condemned, no matter who does it?

                Absolutely. Absolutely!

                Now we wait for the “but”.

                Don’t consider this an attack on you.

                Everyone here yes everyone will offer a coherent rational of why under normal circumstances incinerating an entire city including its hospital is wrong, but you have to understand…

                And I’m not even saying this is wrong!

                “But you have to understand” is GOOD ACTUALLY.

                Morality is always highly context-dependent.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                So something like “if war is declared, then you can bomb a hospital” or “if the hospital is being used as a weapons depot or headquarters for the opposition army, then you can bomb a hospital” would provide sufficient context and so someone who points that out shouldn’t be framed as making an apology for atrocity?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Why are you asking me? You asked the question.

                Is bombing a hospital something that ought to be condemned, no matter who does it?

                I’m just inviting you to answer it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m the one starting off from the maximalist statement.

                You’re the one saying that there are exceptions.

                Are the exceptions I provided as examples exceptions that you would accept as exceptions?

                Or are they a bridge too far?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                So answer the question.
                Is it or isn’t it, yes or no?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                I came up with some theoretical exceptions that I thought might work as exceptions. Do you accept them as reasonable?

                Did I, instead, misunderstand what qualified as an exception when you gave your example of a hospital in Germany in 1945?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Stop stalling and answer your own question:

                What are the circumstances under which you’re “well, you have to understand…” with a hospital being shelled?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m still at the maximalist position, Chip.

                As someone who accepts exceptions, do you accept these exceptions?

                “if war is declared, then you can bomb a hospital”

                “if the hospital is being used as a weapons depot or headquarters for the opposition army, then you can bomb the hospital in question”

                Do you accept both of these? Neither?
                Do you accept only one of these but not the other?

                I’m trying to extrapolate out from Germany in 1945 and I want to make sure I’m wrapping my head around your exception.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                So the maximalist position is that :
                1. It is always wrong to bomb a hospital
                or
                2. It depends on the context

                Which is it?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                The maximalist position is that it is always wrong to bomb a hospital.

                But if someone told me that the moral thing would be to carve out examples, I’d want to give examples of examples to make sure that I’d have my head wrapped around what examples would look like.

                As someone who accepts exceptions, do you accept these exceptions?

                “if war is declared, then you can bomb a hospital”

                “if the hospital is being used as a weapons depot or headquarters for the opposition army, then you can bomb the hospital in question”

                Do you accept both of these? Neither?
                Do you accept only one of these but not the other?

                I’m trying to extrapolate out from Germany in 1945 and I want to make sure I’m wrapping my head around your exception.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                If you are at the maximalist position, which is that it is always wrong, then you would need to conclude that the Allied bombings were wrong.

                I’m not going to argue one way or the other, but just need to point that out.

                So I stand corrected. Not everyone here accepts that morality is context-dependent.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                If I were to tiptoe away from my position to yours, what would that look like in 2023?

                Like, if someone told me that the moral thing would be to carve out examples, I’d want to give examples of examples to make sure that I’d have my head wrapped around what examples would look like.

                As someone who accepts exceptions, do you accept these exceptions?

                “if war is declared, then you can bomb a hospital”

                “if the hospital is being used as a weapons depot or headquarters for the opposition army, then you can bomb the hospital in question”

                Do you accept both of these? Neither?
                Do you accept only one of these but not the other?

                I’m trying to extrapolate out from Germany in 1945 and I want to make sure I’m wrapping my head around your exception.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                I think you need to figure out your own position for yourself before you demand answers from others.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                I have!

                I’m trying to figure out where the shape of a different position might be. Like, if someone asked me for an example of when it’d be okay to bomb a hospital in the current year, I’m not sure that “if it were Germany in 1945” would be a useful answer.

                So, like, if I wanted to come up with examples for the current year, I’d have to think of some.

                Would these examples be examples that you’d say “yeah, those would be good exceptions”?

                “if war is declared, then you can bomb a hospital”

                “if the hospital is being used as a weapons depot or headquarters for the opposition army, then you can bomb the hospital in question”

                Do you accept only one of these but not the other?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                There isn’t enough information to develop an answer.
                Just off the top of my head I would ask what the stakes of the war are- is it existential or a minor border dispute?
                What are the costs of not bombing?
                What are some other alternatives to achieve the goal?
                And so on, for about a hundred more questions.

                Again, I’m not trying to argue you off of your maximalist position. That’s yours to keep.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                I’m afraid that I don’t know how to make “it’s okay if it’s in Germany in 1945” scale, then.

                In the current year, I mean.

                The whole “The US did nothing wrong in WWII” rule is clear and concise… but I don’t know how to apply it to anything else.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                Like I said, you have to figure this out for yourself.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                This strikes me as a bigger deal than just “only you can decide whether or not you like butternut rum ice cream”.

                What meta-ruleset told you that it was okay when we did it in WWII?

                Can I extrapolate out to the Palestinians and say “it’s okay that they shot up their own hospital with a rocket because it’s like WWII”?

                Can I extrapolate out to Israel and say “It’s okay that they shot up a hospital because they told everybody to evacuate first”?

                This “come to whatever conclusion you want!” rule seems like it’s not useful at all. To anybody.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                You get to shell a hospital when the military benefits outweigh the civilian’s cost in suffering (and the damage to your rep).

                This is a very squishy standard and it’s deep into “I know it when I see it” territory.

                In a normal conflict the military doesn’t put ammo dumps or launch platforms in hospitals because that itself is a massive crime.

                When Hamas does that, it’s opening the door for Israel to consider them to be legit military targets.

                That doesn’t mean Israel will blow it up much less that it has to, or even that doing so wouldn’t be a war crime, but the door is open for evaluation.

                With that evaluation comes the fog of war and other stupid things. Ammo dumps can explode. The US can think it’s hostages are there and storm the place hard. Someone can return fire on a rocket launching platform and not know there are civilians there.

                The “you have to understand” door is already open. The only question is whether someone will walk through.Report

  7. North
    Ignored
    says:

    Yes, and?

    That’s all I could feel in response to this article. It was a weird feeling, as I’m sure it is for much of the overwhelming 99% of the left, watching all these verbal and rhetorical missiles and shells flying clear over us to hammer down, endlessly, over and over, on the tiny leftward fringe of the left (and, horseshoe theory being what it is, also a distant fringe of the right) to make the rubble bounce up and down, up and down.

    Even the attempts to lump in the broader capitalist critical left in was pathetically feeble. Fran Drescher? Really? Because she is pro union? Please. This is sad even for rightist writing.

    There’s an extremist fringe that has shown their posterior on the subject of Hamas. Absolutely. Critique against them is justified and merited but also overwrought. Their influence on culture, on politics on the broader society remains so small it effortlessly rounds to zero. Attempts to lump them in with the broader left, however, is both destructive (it inflates and strengthens the very radicals you critique) and toweringly hypocritical. It is not on the left that the radical inmates are running the asylum. I believe a revered figure to the right said something once about splinters and wooden beams. I refer you back to it.Report

    • Philip H in reply to North
      Ignored
      says:

      Given that the Right seems to have let it’s rump grind the U.S. Congress to a halt, the “Republicans Love to Project Their Own Failings on Democrats Theory ™” says that the Right can’t conceive of a Left where the Fringe isn’t ruling the day.Report

  8. DavidTC
    Ignored
    says:

    Cheers and celebrations for the gruesome violence in Israel weren’t a shock. It wasn’t a change in character. It was the exact thing the far left has proclaimed for decades. The big difference here is they are championing fresh slaughter instead of historic murders.

    …should I produce video of not just the far-right, but the moderate right (To the extent it still exists), the center, and even the left cheering Israeli bombing of civilians?

    Seriously, this article is completely astonishing.

    Literally my first comment on this topic here, and I want people to read this part again:

    Now, their actions have been rather horrific in a lot of places. But…and I don’t want to make excuses for them, but we do all know that Israel has been, like, killing _their_ civilians for literally decades, right? Not just outright shooting them in the street, which to be clear has happened in fairly disturbing amounts, but the naval blockade that has been going on _a decade and a half_ has resulted in starvation and medical disaster.

    Being suddenly horrified that Hamas is doing the same thing is…really kinda showing how bad the reporting on this has been for decades. It is horrifying, yes, but maybe we also should have been horrified a decade ago and made Israel stop? Or, at minimum, stop funding them?

    And yes, I’m sure there are some pro-Palestinian people who are supporting those horrific actions of Hamas, but there is also this huge group of people who are perfectly fine with massacres of children in the other direction, as long as Israel makes the slightest vaguest, very-obvious-lie about those massacres being something to do with terrorism.

    Y’all are cheering the bombing of a country that is literally MOSTLY CHILDREN, statistically speaking. Israel is using eliminationist language which, when Hamas uses it, it justified bombing them, but when Israel uses it, you all just nod along or say ‘Oh, no, please don’t do that, wink wink nudge nudge. Please don’t ethnically cleanse your entire country…um, I mean, ‘Palestine’. We will officially be Sad if you do’.Report

    • Pinky in reply to DavidTC
      Ignored
      says:

      You may be surprised that your 10,000 subsequent comments have made your criticism of Hamas seem pro forma.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to Pinky
        Ignored
        says:

        Oh, so sorry I don’t condemn Hamas’ war crimes every post.

        Hey, have you condemned Israel’s war crimes even once? Here’s one for you:

        https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/16/israel-behind-gaza-strike-that-killed-children-report

        Israel bombed a cemetery, as part of something that they called ‘preemptive operation’, and don’t appear to have any explanation for beyond that.

        They killed nine people, for which were children, none of which appeared doing anything except business cemetery.

        Then they lied about it, claiming it was a misfired rocket of Islamic Jihad (hmmm), before eventually admitting that they had done it.

        There you go, a very clear cut war crime. It’s not the worst by far, but I picked it because it is something that has been admitted to, had no justification under any possible version of reality, and killed children. If you condemn that every post you make, I will condemn what Hamas just did every post I make.Report

        • Pinky in reply to DavidTC
          Ignored
          says:

          “Hey, have you condemned Israel’s war crimes even once?”

          I don’t think I’ve even condemned Hamas in my comments. I assume that civilized human beings oppose atrocities, unless they expend an extraordinary amount of energy defending a party that commits them. Evil acts are evil. I may not have much faith in any particular link you may put up, but I condemn war crimes.Report

  9. Saul Degraw
    Ignored
    says:

    Like North, I think this is pretty weak tea.

    Yeah, there are a lot of campus radicals and others who rushed to their priors and are now working hard to keep those alive despite all evidence to the contrary. This is a very small group in the United States and pretty much the entire Democratic Party including its most liberal members have denounced them. Biden maintains strong support for Israel while trying to reopen aide and resources for Hamas as he should.

    The campus radicals are generally discovering that there are consequences to rushing into judgment by having jobs rescinded.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw
      Ignored
      says:

      The Pro-Palestinian radicals in the West do the most harm to the Palestinians because they keep egging them on in their worst opinions rather than telling them to be sensible and realize the Jews aren’t going anywhere.Report

  10. Christopher Bradley
    Ignored
    says:

    Someone woke up this morning and snorted all of Jonah Goldberg’s outdated points off of the bathroom vanity.Report

  11. Saul Degraw
    Ignored
    says:

    Let’s try to examine this a bit more seriously:

    1. Israel/Palestine is a decades-old ethnic conflict;

    2. For various reasons, it is an ethnic conflict that generates a lot of attention in the Western world despite their being fair deadlier ethnic conflicts or comparative ones like the recent hostilities between Armenia and Azerbajian.

    3. For various reasons, good, bad, and misplaced, many people, especially those who identify has having left wing politics have been increasingly sympathetic to the Palestinians in the past few decades (Let’s just start it at 1998 when I started college).

    4. For various reasons, the Israeli government has decided to be colder towards Democratic administrations and politicians for past 15 or so years. FWIW, I think this was stupid of them.

    5. Hamas’ attack on Israel two weeks ago led to a flurry of support for Israel almost immediately. The kind of statements that had not been issued in its favor for years. This is after decades of frosty relationships with much of Europe and North America. The solidarity increased as news of the attacks went forward.

    6. Despite or because of number 5, various people, often very young, often still in school (but not always still in school and not always young) rushed to support Palestine and often in fool-hardy armchair ways and without information. Some of them did the old vanguard thing and issued statements without consulting the rest of their groups or potentially anyone.

    7. A lot of these statements were dumb at best and inflammatory provocations as worse.

    8. Calmer voices prevailed as accurate information came in.

    TL/DR, Hamas screwed up big time and some Western Palestinian supporters are having a hard time processing this fact. There is no need to condemn the entire left because of this. This is just as much motivated reasoning as the university radicals trying to find anything that makes Israel the bad guy again like misreported propaganda and/or yesterday’s hospital bombing which looks like it was caused by an errant Islamic Jihad rocket.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw
      Ignored
      says:

      How’s it going on the other blog? Have they hammered out the hospital thing yet?Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw
      Ignored
      says:

      Seeing the different responses online have been interesting. Most people aren’t changing their opinions but I’ve seen a lot more Jews talk about Israel and display support of it in the past week than I did for a long time. Some people on the Pro-Palestinian side are changing their opinions and at least saying we need to consider that Hamas might be literal rather than figurative. Others have either doubled down or want Israel to do nothing without quite saying do nothing.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw
      Ignored
      says:

      It can’t be emphasized enough on how much Western allies of the Palestinians don’t realize how much Hamas totally fished up the Palestinian cause within one day here. Lots of them still basically won’t define what a proportionate response would be and still argue that now is the perfect time to put more pressure on Israel to give in because of Palestinian desperation rather than have people tell the Palestinians the facts of life about some issues. Hamas not only showed their genocidal intentions to be true but that they are very willing to throw ordinary Palestinians under the bus but this means that Hamas should get full rewards under the depraved logic of Pro-Palestinian Westerners. Many are still praising the massacre as a great anti-colonial revolt and celebrating the murder of Jews.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Saul Degraw
      Ignored
      says:

      To your points 1 and 2, it seems an understatement to describe this as a decades-long war. It’s more the current theater of the longest-running worldwide continual war, clocking in at about 1400 years, or, viewed differently, part of a local war lasting twice that long. I feel like your points 1-4 were intended to pull the camera back a little to provide more perspective, but by ignoring the Left’s who-whom framework and the Democrats’ attempts to bond with Iran, you’re not providing any meaningful context at all.Report

  12. Burt Likko
    Ignored
    says:

    Remember Portland Antifa member Michael Reinoehl who shot and killed a Trump supporter?

    Yes. Yes I do. I also remember volunteer hunter-of-humans Kyle Rittenhouse. Not the same, of course, but there are some significant parallels. Both voluntarily inserted themselves into a tense and dangerous situation, with guns, claiming to have done so for the purpose of protecting others, and wound up killing other people.

    One of the differences between them is Rittenhouse was captured by police alive, given a trial, and after visibly pretending to cry in remorse over what had happened, given every benefit of the moral and legal doubt in his favor. He is alive and a free man today, and now works the conservative lecture circuit bragging about the very deeds that he claimed to have tear-jerking remorse about during his trial. Reinhoel, on the other hand, killed half as many people, but was called out to be hunted by the then-President of the United States before any substantial investigation into the incident had taken place, and shot to death mere hours after his arrest warrant was issued. There’s reason to doubt the police’s story that Reinhoel attempted to shoot his way out of being surrounded by more than a dozen U.S. Marshals, Washington State Police, and local sheriff’s deputies, including factually inconsistent police statements and third-party witnesses who said that the officers shot first and without provocation.

    Another difference between Rittenhouse and Reinhoel is that Rittenhouse, at least by his own words, took it upon himself to go be a vigilante in defense of property. Reinhoel, at least by his own words, took it upon himself to provide security for BLM protestors, and according to his adult children who have filed a wrongful death suit against the police agencies who killed him, he’d received multiple personal death threats from Trump supporters before the fatal confrontation on Southwest Third Avenue.

    Not a word of which morally exonerates Reinhoel. I say, even if he was provoked during a very sharp argument with a Trump supporter in a highly tense atmosphere he should have withdrawn from the confrontation. Instead, he shot the Trump supporter and that was absolutely 100% morally wrong. I don’t write here to suggest otherwise. I write to suggest that Reinhoel’s moral wrongness does not mean that other people are free from moral blame themselves, both before and after Reinhoel’s bad act.

    It’s well and fine to point out that some people and even some press institutions view and judge current events through lenses of their prior assumptions and preferences, even when not all of the relevant information is available. (Come to think of it, a lot of us do that here too.)

    But if you’re going to condemn Michael Reinhoel, and not so much as mention Kyle Rittenhouse (even to attempt distinguishing them), then I think you’re as guilty as the people you accuse of picking and choosing the bad things you want to condemn and the other, different, but also-bad things you prefer to ignore. And perhaps that’s based upon, as @jaybird says above, aesthetics rather than morals, fashion rather than principle.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Burt Likko
      Ignored
      says:

      Ooh, also, drawn weapons. Rittenhouse shot at people who had drawn weapons and were trying to kill him. Reinhoel claimed his victim had a knife although it was never found.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Burt Likko
      Ignored
      says:

      From reading wiki, while there were similarities between Reinhoel and Rittenhouse (respect of people who knew them, desire to bring order and security to disorder), there are a number of ways where Reinhoel becomes someone who can be expected to have real problems.

      Failing to appear in court. Driving at 111 mph with his 11-year old while high and having an unlicensed firearm. His sister described him as “not very stable”. He had PTSD. He traded drugs for guns. He was evicted for drug use and told his former landlord he would be homeless. Unless he was actually being hunted by the Proud Boys, we can add paranoia to that list.

      Danielson (the guy he shot), doesn’t fit the profile of a Proud Boy and had no history of violence.

      There’s a significant fog of unknown here, but Reinhoel is one tiny step away from being a violent nut.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Aaron_Danielson_and_Michael_Reinoehl#BackgroundReport

      • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter
        Ignored
        says:

        Maybe we can agree that Reinoehl and Rittenhouse were (are) both mopes who never should have let near a firearm.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller
          Ignored
          says:

          Why shouldn’t Rittenhouse be allowed a firearm? All of the people he shot were actively attempting violence on him. We did a deep dive on that in court.Report

          • Burt Likko in reply to Dark Matter
            Ignored
            says:

            If I recall, the consensus we more or less settled on was that Rittenhouse’s not guilty verdict was the right legal result; there’s a reasonable doubt that in the moment he may well have been in legitimate fear for his life. I’m less inclined than several of you to cut him a lot of moral slack (differentiated from legal doubt) for that because it still seems to me that Rittenhouse knew he’d have a good chance of being put into that sort of situation, and continued to seek it out. And this is the sense in which I see a very substantial similarity to Reinhoel (whom I’ve condemned, not defended), and I hasten to underline that I’m making a proposition on a moral level, not a legal one.

            While I realize a compare-and-contrast debate is inevitable having raised the example, I roughly agree with Jaybird: it’s very interesting how the people who have offered moral exonerations of Rittenhouse, moral condemnations of Reinhoel, and undertaken to fact-check to poke holes in my condemnation of Rittenhouse (or to further condemn the undefended Reinhoel) are the more rightward members of our commentariat. (For instance, Pinky claims difficulty in finding evidence that Trump called for Reinoehl to be hunted. Here you go, Pinky, I refer you specifically to the last substantial paragraph of the transcript.)

            Which is fine! There are arguments to make that Rittenhouse’s case is different, on a principled level, from Reinhoel’s; many have been made here. I’ve staked my claim for what I see as the substantial similarity.

            The exchange sure suggests to me that Jaybird is on to something when he points out that the way we react to (among other things) the Israel-versus-Palestine conflict is powerfully lensed by our preferences. (Call them “priors” if you wish. At some point, Jaybird used the word “aesthetics.”)

            Preferences aren’t logical, reasoned, or principled. But they’re real and we all have them. Perhaps the way human beings actually operate is we pick our preferences first for non-rational reasons, then lens the evidence that we see to conform as closely as possible to that preference, and finally back-fill in reasoning and principle to back up the preference using lensed data. That’s not a liberal or a conservative thing, it’s a human thing. It’s difficult for anyone to extricate their thinking from this tendency.

            I’m almost certainly as guilty of this tendency as anyone else here. And if you’re going to hold yourself out as making objective, reasonable, principled responses to things, it’s useful for you to be aware that you’re as human as anyone else and therefore subject to this sort of internal bias, a bias founded not on principle but rather upon preference.

            The OP struck me as a 1,700+ word festival of precisely this sort of preference lensing on full exhibit. The pushback I’m getting seems to come from exclusively those with preferences different than my own. That’s evidence that indeed preference is at play here.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Burt Likko
              Ignored
              says:

              I claimed difficulty in finding the statement because the Google results were about his comments afterwards, and I wasn’t going to dig through Trump’s twitter feed. But I did grant that it wouldn’t surprise me. I still don’t see why a president calling for the arrest of someone under an arrest warrant is unacceptable, but a president calling a person on trial for murder a white supremacist is acceptable.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Pinky
                Ignored
                says:

                Let me walk back the “claimed” remark, lest it imply disrespect. You encountered difficulty, and I don’t blame you at all for not wanting to wade through Trump’s Twitter feed.

                I’d prefer that Presidents not publicly comment on most individual law enforcement matters at all, precisely because a President’s influence has so much potential to sway public opinion and alter the administration of justice. To the extent that there’s pressure to comment on a matter under Federal jurisdiction, something like “I’ve spoken with the Attorney General about this, and urged her to see to it that justice is done in this matter,” that seems fine. But getting in to the nuts and bolts of evidence? It’s dangerous and problematic, for the reasons you note regarding Biden’s comments about Rittenhouse’s trial.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Dark Matter
        Ignored
        says:

        Those are some more good differences between the two. There’s also footage showing Rittenhouse being threatened with a gun, and footage showing Reinoehl shooting someone walking toward him with nothing apparent in his hands.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Burt Likko
      Ignored
      says:

      “[Reinoehl] was called out to be hunted by the then-President of the United States before any substantial investigation into the incident had taken place”

      I can’t find any evidence of that. I mean, it’s Trump, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he said something, but I don’t see anything from before Reinoehl’s death. President Biden did suggest that Rittenhouse was a racist before his trial though, which seems to me more inappropriate.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Burt Likko
      Ignored
      says:

      “Reinhoel, at least by his own words, took it upon himself to provide security for BLM protestors…”

      oh, so a vigilante in defense of rioters, then?

      “Reinhoel, on the other hand, killed half as many people”

      oh hey, so he actually did kill people and then flee from the police?

      you know that it’s considered bad lawyering to agree in near-totality with the prosecution’s case, right?Report

      • Pinky in reply to DensityDuck
        Ignored
        says:

        But the two cases are so similar that any time we mention a left-wing killer we should also mention a right-winger who defended himself against left-wing killers.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Pinky
          Ignored
          says:

          The cases don’t seem similar.

          Rittenhouse surrendered to the cops (twice, the first time he tried he was ordered to go home).

          Reinhoel seems to have been law disobeying… not surrendering, not having had his firearm legally, and probably not having used his firearm legally. Adding mental illness and drug abuse to that package doesn’t make him look better.

          The law should be treating them very differently.Report

  13. LeeEsq
    Ignored
    says:

    I realize that the Pro-Palestinian Westerners are basically powerless but they still piss me off to no end. They are disgusting and revolting for jumping into the fray immediately rather than pausing one day. That not one prominent person among all the Muslims in the world, meaning somebody that the vast majority of Muslims would listen to in earnest and respect, could bring themselves to outright condemn Hamas for what they have done is also very revolting. The entire burden of Jewish and Muslim relationships is put in the hands of Jews. If a Jewish group went out and slaughtered 1400 Palestinians then the entire Jewish world would be on itself in denouncing them. If we did not than the entire world would call us out. However, nobody ever calls out the entirety of the Muslim world for being silent or really mealy mouthed or even cheering on the death of innocent Jews. It is enraging and vomit inducing.Report

  14. pillsy
    Ignored
    says:

    This article started off promising, by raising the examples of Brown and Turner for comparison with Hamas. Upon reading that initial section, I was thinking I was reading something that was challenging and might well piss me off and/or persuade me to reconsider some of my views–as someone who is inclined to give the Brown and Turner considerable leeway and thinks Hamas is a reprehensible gang.

    Then it veered off into a litany of more recent and largely unknown events that supposedly are in some way analogous to either Brown, Turner, and/or Hamas. You may think people have bad and wrong opinions on Brown and Turner [1], but at least they know who the fuck they are.

    But soon we’re off to talking about CHAZ or a gunman identified solely by the fact that he quoted AOC[2] and suddenly we’re in territory where I was no longer wondering if my views were wrong and started wondering why you were talking about stuff I no view on at all because I’d never heard of it.

    I guess it’s supposed to be bad because the liberal media didn’t adequately inform me about this shit, but in the end I’m just relieved and reassured that I can return to the security of a low-stakes partisan food fight, leaving potential flaws with my worldview comfortably intact.

    [1] And for Brown especially, those opinions you hold in such low regard are hardly limited to the Left.

    [2] Gonna be honest, it didn’t ring a bell and I didn’t follow the link to dispel my ignorance.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to pillsy
      Ignored
      says:

      you know that you’re doing what the article was writing about, right

      like

      you say straight out “I no view on at all[sic] because I’d never heard of it.”

      which is…literally actually the fundamental premise of what the OP wroteReport

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