35 thoughts on “A Dark Age

  1. One of Leonard Cohen’s last poems was titled “What is Coming“.

    what is coming
    ten million people
    in the street
    cannot stop
    what is coming
    the American Armed Forces
    cannot control
    the President
    of the United States
    and his counselors
    cannot conceive
    initiate
    command
    or direct
    everything
    you do
    or refrain from doing
    will bring us
    to the same place
    the place we don’t know

    your anger against the war
    your horror of death
    your calm strategies
    your bold plans
    to rearrange
    the middle east
    to overthrow the dollar
    to establish
    the 4th Reich
    to live forever
    to silence the Jews
    to order the cosmos
    to tidy up your life
    to improve religion
    they count for nothing
    you have no understanding
    of the consequences
    of what you do
    oh and one more thing
    you aren’t going to like
    what comes after
    America

    Report

  2. I think most historians disagree with the idea of the dark ages and even the dark ages were seen as a thing, they were assumed to have ended around 1000 rather than the 14th century. The period between the 11th and the mid-14th century were seen as a Medieval boom time with lots of innovation.Report

    1. When I was getting my history BA the distinction they made was low medieval (approximately 410-1066 i.e. Alaric to William) versus high medieval (approximately 1066-1400). The low medieval period is characterized by breakdown of central authority in the early years followed by slow re-establishment of governments based around vassalage and the church. I don’t see anything happening now as a parallel.Report

      1. My personal pet peeve was ‘Early Modern’ starting in 1500 and going to 1800. Felt like it was leading the witness.

        410 to 793 is about as long as I’d go for an ‘era’ … 793 to 1071 is the Varangian era … Vikings/Byzantium/Carolingians

        At any rate, Empires coming and going have nothing to do with ‘Darkness’ and there’s little to be ‘learned’ about Rome’s fall in 476 – especially since it survived and thrived until 1453. In the ‘Dark Ages’, the dominant powers were Rome and Persia (and China)… and those darned Steppe Peoples. And…Report

        1. My recollection of the survey is that we talked ‘fall’ of Rome as prologue, spent 5 minutes on Byzantium and Clovis, then Einhard acting as the center of gravity for basically everything else from that (sub) period. A lot of reason to to question whether this is really a distinct era but I’m also not sure there’s an obvious alternative approach at the 100 level. Gotta go to the 200 and beyond for the rest.Report

        2. Also, at least after it became the center of the Muslim World before 1000 CE, the Middle East, trade with which made the Vikings and Venice great powers, while shaping Eastern Europe (including Russia), and intellectual exchange with which made the great European advancements in philosophy and science of the late Middle Ages possible.Report

          1. Heh in fairness to my wonderful professor the course was Medieval Europe. UMD’s history department had plenty of courses on the Islamic world. My concentration was Europe and there were courses that got into those kinds of topics, including Scandinavian history and Germanic Mythology (for which I got credits both for my major and my German citation).Report

            1. I knew virtually nothing about the history Near, Middle, or Far East until fairly recently, when I read a couple books with a reading group, became fascinated, and read more. I really feel like Persia, the Silk Road, and China/Southeast Asia were huge holes in my formal education, and I’m trying really hard to fill them.Report

  3. The basic problem is that the global right is cooperating internationally in ways that that global left is not. This is both at the formal state level with Vladimir Putin being very close to people like Trump, Netanyahu, Modi, and others and at the informal level. The various rightist online communities talk and help each other. The global liberal and left side of politics is filled with people that make each other retch and aren’t talking or cooperating on a formal or informal level.

    At the other blog we had long talks about the past few days on what the actual data shows from Harris’ loss and what it means for the Democratic Party. There was naturally a lot of heat rather than light but contemporary liberalism and leftism might be an electoral loser. People seem to like center left policies but not the aesthetics of liberalism or center leftism. It’s too feminine, bougie, namby pamby, etc. We might be looking at a Poland like situation where the best counter to the Far Right is a sane Center Right party.Report

    1. The only thing that the global right seems to agree upon is that “Open Borders” is not a good policy.

      Yeah, yeah. “Nobody is arguing for open borders!” but remember this article from just last month? In an Age of Right-Wing Populism, Why Are Denmark’s Liberals Winning?

      As it turns out, the answer is that Denmark’s Liberals are against Open Borders.

      The answer just might be “abandon open borders as a policy”.

      Which, you’d think, would be easy if nobody is arguing for it.Report

        1. There are official policies and de facto policies. Chances are way lower that Trump is president if from the beginning Biden had approached the border the way he did in the last 8ish months of the administration. It’s also the common thread in every important European country from UKIP to National Rally to AfD to Brothers of Italy.Report

            1. That is not how the issue is understood by the voting public and I think you know that too.

              Obama was in a defensible place, constantly and prominently asking for security the GOP in Congress refused to fund while being careful to champion the cause of only the easiest, most sympathetic cases. Biden was a total disaster. As soon as he took office he ended remain in Mexico and reversed the other Trump EOs that were creating some breathing room. Then he sat for over 3 years while the asylum system was made into a total mockery. It’s night and day.Report

              1. The system was already a mockery precisely as you describe. Remain in Mexico was always framed as a COVID response so once the pandemic ended keeping it in place would have made a mockery.Report

          1. I don’t want to do too much projecting of intelligence but it seems to me that the GOP’s slight edge comes from apparent willingness to make trade offs and even take hard lines with their constituencies. The big business wing has gotten a big middle finger on immigration and tariffs. A quieter but still firm ‘shut up’ seems to have gone out to the pro-life movement. Which doesnt mean they aren’t still very off-putting and alienating. There’s a reason they’re in charge only by a thin margin. We have yet to see the Democrats do anything quite like it, in the sense of picking some sides for the sake of getting/holding power.Report

            1. I don’t even think that arguing “hey, we need one billion immigrants” is necessarily a *BAD* play. “The Haitians are making Ohio better. Here’s the factory owner praising how they’re better workers than vintage Americans!”

              But this whole thing about how we have a massive influx of immigrants and use new and novel ways to get them into communities who don’t get a vote on it and then pretend that nothing happened when there are objections is, seriously, going to turn off more people than a full-throated “READ THE STATUE OF LIBERTY POEM AGAIN!!!”Report

              1. I think there are multiple angles to it. One is ‘law and order.’ One is the perception of government dysfunction. One is that we have more foreign born people as a proportion of the population than any other time in history, plus fertility decline of the native born citizenry, plus the larger ‘late capitalism’ malaise and disenfranchisement driving a bunch of cultural panic.

                As you note there are lots of ways you can play it that might work but the one thing you probably can’t do is occupy the middle of a ven diagram that says ‘nothing is happening,’ ‘we don’t care that this is happening’ and ‘you are a racist.’.Report

              2. You didn’t answer my first question, so I’m not surprised that you didn’t answer the second. But why, after all this time, would you think I’m pretending about not understanding you? It’s the normal state of affairs around here.Report

            2. I agree with the business stuff but not necessarily the pro-life stuff. The social reactionaries are definitely getting more bold with different policy preferences they have like anti-DEI, transphobia, etc.

              Also the Democratic Party has done this as well. The police reform faction is definitely not in control anymore. Law and order Democrats trounced them easily and the national party is going along. So at least the police reform/defund the police faction has been told that they are losers.Report

              1. So at least the police reform/defund the police faction has been told that they are losers.

                Was it a mistake to run a candidate in 2024 that argued for defunding the police back in 2020?

                Because if we can’t get people to say “holy crap, we never should have run Kamala”, I’m going to say that you’re making stronger statements than those that would more accurately describe the facts on the ground.Report

              2. I dunno. Omitting a national abortion ban from the platform for the first time in 40 years is a pretty big deal. Especially if you’re looking to give cover to socially moderate women in swing states open to voting for you.Report

      1. Just because the global right only agrees on no “Open Borders” doesn’t mean that they aren’t communicating or cooperating with each other. I’d also argue that there is plenty of stuff that they agree on besides even if it doesn’t rhyme completely.Report

        1. We’d probably benefit from definitions here. “They’re engaging in commerce!” is one definition of communication/cooperation but it strikes me as trivial.

          Like, if we’d not find it particularly notable for “the global left” to do the things we’re talking about when we say “communication/cooperation”, we may be doing the thing where we’re complaining about humans but saying that it’s “the global right” doing it.

          You know, the way that kids these days conflate “entropy” with “capitalism”.Report

  4. There are many problems with using the Dark Ages as an analogy, not the least of which is that the Dark Ages, to the extent that they were really a thing, took place in a part of the world that, outside of the Italian Peninsula, Greece (and the surrounding areas), and Turkey, had effectively been a global backwater since the extinction of the Neanderthal. Sure, Rome had conquered much of it, but it’s not like Roman technological, military, or political advances were coming out of Gallia, Hispania, Germania, or Britannia (or to the extent that they were, they were coming from Romans campaigning there). Things looked very different for much of that thousand years in, say, Persia or East Asia, where the world was doing just fine.

    Since the end of the world, the West has seen the rise and fall of more than one great power, and the East has seen its millennia-old great power fall and rise again. There are likely better lessons about the end of a great power in a highly globalized world in the last 600 years than in anything before it. We’re not Rome, as much as we’d like to think we are, because the rest of the West is not merely barbarians.

    I’m sure I’ve recommended it here a few times before, but The Long Twentieth Century: Money, Power and the Origins of Our Times by Giovanni Arrighi is a great look at the cycle of the decline of a great Western power, the interegnum, the ascendance of another power, and its reign, since the late middle ages (starting with Renaissance Florence). There’s much to disagree with in there, and he gets predictions about who will come after the U.S. wrong, but it’s full of great historical insights.Report

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