Musk vs Gore

Michael Siegel

Michael Siegel is an astronomer living in Pennsylvania. He blogs at his own site, and has written a novel.

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35 Responses

  1. Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    Almost all the “waste” it is identifying are MAGA bete noires: foreign aid, public health, science, “DEI”, CFPB, etc.

    The DEI thing is where the teeth are going to be and every attempt on the part of the various departments to route around it are going to result in DOGE defenders pointing out how important this actually was.

    There have been a number of times where the Diversity Department was quickly renamed in the middle of the night to “Wellness” or some crap like that and various hall monitors have cheerfully posted screenshots saying “they’re trying to pull a fast one!”

    There was a lot of overreach and a lot of stupid things that were said and done on the record.

    And that overreach has resulted in the pendulum swinging back.

    One other thing that I’ve seen a handful of times is the complaint that the probationary people are getting fired and it’s not just the people who have been there two and a half weeks, it’s the people who have recently gotten promoted because they did a good job.

    “The people who are doing a good job are the people you should *WANT* to keep!” is something I’ve heard more than once.

    Well… the people who are doing a bad job are impossible to fire.

    Personally, I think that the bad job people should be fired but…Report

    • Philip H in reply to Jaybird
      Ignored
      says:

      No one is impossible to fire in the federal system. It happens routinely even if the numbers are small. Like everything g else it’s a process and as long as it’s followed it’s actually pretty effective. It just takes time and business people refuse to take time.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
      Ignored
      says:

      The DEI thing is where the teeth are going to be and every attempt on the part of the various departments to route around it are going to result in DOGE defenders pointing out how important this actually was.

      This is actual gibberish.

      DEI programs make up almost _no_ amount of the budget, and a huge chunk of it is just normal HR stuff that has to be done anyway.

      The reason that it is ‘important’ that they are being cut is that the cutting of it is accompanied by _overtly bigoted decisions_. It is, to use a word, ‘signalling’, and the thing is it singalling is that ‘white straight men are back in charge’.

      There have been a number of times where the Diversity Department was quickly renamed in the middle of the night to “Wellness” or some crap like that and various hall monitors have cheerfully posted screenshots saying “they’re trying to pull a fast one!”

      Ah, clever plan, if you don’t actually link to anything, no one will point out how getting you’re your news from liars on Facebook.

      Personally, I think that the bad job people should be fired but…

      …you’re okay with people who are doing a good job and who just got promoted being fired.

      I guess that’s how your sentence is supposed to end?Report

      • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
        Ignored
        says:

        Let me rephrase it, then.

        Cutting out the DEI stuff is the stuff that will make the most noise. There will be various departments that will try to route around it by hiding that it was the DEI office the week prior.

        For example, here’s an article from The Denver Post: University of Colorado renames DEI office to ‘Office of Collaboration’

        This will get the DOGE fans to say “see how important it was that we get rid of this? Look at how sneaky they are!”

        From the article I linked to above:

        On the federal level, employees have been ordered to report efforts to “disguise” DEI offices through various name changes or otherwise. Other businesses and institutions, like CU, have opted to rename their offices and change the language on their websites.

        Some say that The Denver Post is a Nazi newspaper for Nazis. Other call it “Commie fishwrap”.

        I can only link to it and ask you to decide for yourself if it is Facebook quality or higher.

        I guess that’s how your sentence is supposed to end?

        “Something needs to be done. This is something.”Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
          Ignored
          says:

          There will be various departments that will try to route around it by hiding that it was the DEI office the week prior.

          We in a discussion about Musk slashing the Federal government. Why are you talking about the University of Colorado, and why are you using the University of Colorado as an example of a department?

          Anyway, no, that’s not an attempt to ‘hide’. As far as I know, this is the only part of anything Trump has done that applies to colleges:

          Sec. 5. Other Actions. Within 120 days of this order, the Attorney General and the Secretary of Education shall jointly issue guidance to all State and local educational agencies that receive Federal funds, as well as all institutions of higher education that receive Federal grants or participate in the Federal student loan assistance program under Title IV of the Higher Education Act, 20 U.S.C. 1070 et seq., regarding the measures and practices required to comply with Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. v. President and Fellows of Harvard College, 600 U.S. 181 (2023).

          Those guidelines do not appear to have been issued yet.

          This college has apparently decided that the Department of Education will likely have a problem with the name, at minimum, so has preemptively changed it.

          Why do you think this is an attempt to ‘hide’?

          Do you think the college should assume the guidelines are going to be ‘anything that every had the name DEI’ should be removed? That the University of Colorado should just preemptively dismantle the entire department? That seems somewhat stupid.

          Weren’t you one of the people complaining the Air Force, having been ordered to shut down their DEI training, removed a video of the Tuskegee Airmen that was shown in it, despite that clearly being part of the DEI training and covered by the order? You complained this was ‘mandatory compliance’.

          But here, you’re complaining about a university, _which has not been given guidelines yet_, tries to get ahead of the guidelines in the vaguest way (It seems clear the term ‘DEI’ is a problem, at minimum.), and you have decided that this is ‘hiding’ something.

          What you think the University of Colorado should have done at this point in time?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
            Ignored
            says:

            We in a discussion about Musk slashing the Federal government. Why are you talking about the University of Colorado, and why are you using the University of Colorado as an example of a department?

            I thought it was broad enough to cover such things as “spending” but if you insist, I’ll limit future examples in this thread to stuff that has a .gov or .mil website.

            This college has apparently decided that the Department of Education will likely have a problem with the name, at minimum, so has preemptively changed it.

            Why do you think this is an attempt to ‘hide’?

            If you don’t like the word “hide”, how’s “rebrand”?

            Back in the early oughts, my managed services job was bought and sold and renamed a buncha times and I had to get up and go into a room and fill out paperwork multiple times but when the paperwork was done I’d get a new badge and go back to the same desk and do the same job as I did the day before.

            In the same way, the exact same job being done by the DEI Office now being done by the Whole Employee Office would be an example of what I’m talking about.

            Do you understand the phenomenon I’m talking about here?

            What you think the University of Colorado should have done at this point in time?

            Oh, I’m not paid well enough to come up with game plans for universities.

            Hell, renaming the department and getting rid of the troublesome office nameplate and replacing it with a nameplate with different letters on it is probably the best play. “Maybe Trump will get impeached and we can just keep on keeping on and, let’s face it, DEI was getting to be a kind of thought-terminating cliché anyway so it’s for the best.”Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
              Ignored
              says:

              You, now:

              I thought it was broad enough to cover such things as “spending” but if you insist, I’ll limit future examples in this thread to stuff that has a .gov or .mil website.

              You, starting the thread:

              The DEI thing is where the teeth are going to be and every attempt on the part of the various departments to route around it are going to result in DOGE defenders pointing out how important this actually was.

              You see that word ‘DOGE’ right there?

              DOGE is the thing that exists in the Federal government that is going around doing things to the Federal government.

              It is not an executive order telling the Department of Education to issue guidelines that have not actually been issued yet, and it certainly is not universities prepping for what they think it might be.

              If you don’t like the word “hide”, how’s “rebrand”?

              What is this conversation _even about_? What is the point you think you are making?

              Yes, universities will stop using words like ‘diversity’ and ‘equity’ and ‘inclusion’, as Republicans have decided to war a word against them.

              They are going to use other words that mean those things, like ‘collaboration’ means what was meant by ‘inclusion’, and ‘fairness’ means what was meant by ‘equity’.

              As for diversity, I’m going to suggest they can just move to ‘intergration’, so as to make it clear what is actually being criticized, and the Trump administration can take the pro-segregation position.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                If my experience of the cafeteria is any indication, it ain’t just the Trumpsters that are pro-segregation.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                “What is this conversation _even about_? What is the point you think you are making?”

                That all the various Really Rotten Things will be reverted as soon as someone finds out about them, except for DEI stuff which is all that Trump voters really cared about anyway?

                That hardly seems like a controversial take or something that should trigger you.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC
        Ignored
        says:

        DavidTC: …it is accompanied by _overtly bigoted decisions_…

        It says a lot about the current debate that I can’t tell if “bigoted” means “treating people unequally” or if “bigoted” means “insisting on treating people equally”.

        That last would mean, “no anti-whiteness training”. DEI has the rep of promoting the idea that whites are responsible for inequality because they’re white, inequality needs to be measured by outcomes, and whites need to shut up and accept the opinion of minorities on reality.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter
          Ignored
          says:

          They just fired the only female four-star Naval Admiral, Lisa Franchetti, who, incidentally, was the only female officer at that level in the entire armed forces.

          There was absolutely no attempt to even _give_ a justification for that one. Literally none.

          With firing the head of the Coast Guard, Linda Fagan, they could at least claim she hadn’t cleaned up and fixed the scandal of her predeceaser fast enough, although there was no real evidence she wasn’t exactly that. And could make vague handwaves at ‘DEI’, although as the scandal was ‘A massive rape and hazing culture that was covered up’, I think doing things to stop ‘sexual harassment’ and treat sexual misconduct seriously seemed warranted as a response to that! But whatever.

          But Admiral Franchetti had _absolutely_ nothing like that. She has made no large policy changes whatsoever in the year and an half she’s be in place. There’s no ‘DEI’ to point at, there’s nothing. There’s no possible objections whatsoever. She’s a solidly competent administrator and military who worked her way up the ranks. She doesn’t seem to be out of her depth. She’s exactly the sort of person the military should be lead by in peacetime, and her combat record seems competent too.

          And, again, to repeat, they didn’t give a reason. There is no stated reason for removing her. Probably because they didn’t want to give their real objection, which Hegseth has stated in his book, in that he thinks she was confirmed for ‘optics’ instead of ‘skill’.

          There is, again, no evidence of this, there’s no complaint about her actual command, and this what bigotry actually looks like…both these example.

          You get minorities and women held to standards that white men are not, like how Fagan has not immediate magically erased something the previous Coast Guard Commandant did and was not even _fired_ over. And when there’s literally _nothing_ they can point to about Franchetti, who seems just a very competent person who has done nothing wrong and in fact, not really done much at all except keep things running, like she’s supposed to, and pretty much everyone seems happy with her, it’s just sort a ‘Oh, she must be a diversity hire and I will remove her’.

          And to be clear, they are not ‘lying’. That’s not how bigotry works. They honestly believe that. They’re just bigots who assume that anyone who isn’t a white man couldn’t have earned their position.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
            Ignored
            says:

            NPR says that Trump fired six four-star level people. The other five were dudes.

            While I absolutely agree that Franchetti should have been treated differently because she’s a woman, unfortunately Biden codified the 28th Amendment.Report

            • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird
              Ignored
              says:

              See, that’s an actual story worth pursuing, not the part about a woman being one of them… but 6 out of approximately 30+ top ranking Generals? That’s a bad precedent for an a-political military because it isn’t tied to any particular incident or failure and implies a sort of litmus test.

              But that’s the story: is there a litmus test? what exactly is it? why those 6? and what new 6 take their places?

              Now, it’s possible (in theory) that the top flag officers are in need of a thorough dusting… Biden, after all, held none accountable for the Afghanistan operational cf… but my priors would start with a litmus test and require evidence that Trump is acting for the good of the services. But that’s just me.

              It’s true that the President is CiC and civilian deference ought only go so far; but it is also true that pure political advancement will corrode the officer corps very quickly. And, well, a very politicized military is indeed something worth guarding against.

              But the focus on women and poc? That’s precisely the bad resistance that we need to avoid.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Marchmaine
                Ignored
                says:

                Three of the six fired were the JAG lawyers that are supposed to advise the actual heads of the services. (Who are not the Joint Chiefs, to be clear. The chain of command does not go through the Joint Chiefs.)

                It’s been explicitly stated by Hegseth that he was worried those lawyers would be ‘roadblocks’ to what he wanted to do with the military, that the current ones might not ‘give sound constitutional advice’, and how they wouldn’t be ‘well-suited’ to give recommendations when the military gets lawful order.

                All this stuff about how there are plans to use the military in ways that the lawyers might disagree with is being said _really_ out in the open by him, BTW. Those are things said by him, directly, in public, to the media. This is incredibly worrying, there’s almost no possible conclusion but that he is talking about using the military against US citizens, and it’s really absurd no one is talking about it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Marchmaine
                Ignored
                says:

                Pour encourager les autres.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
              Ignored
              says:

              NPR says that Trump fired six four-star level people. The other five were dudes.

              Did you…not read that?

              One of the other people was the only Black officer in the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Really doesn’t undercut the ‘bigot’ concept there.

              Three of them were the three top lawyers for the services, which feels like less bigotry and more ‘The lawyers will not agree with what I am trying to do’. Which is literally the justification Hegseth gave, that he ‘didn’t think they were “well-suited” to provide recommendations when lawful orders are given.’, and lots of stuff like that.

              Firing _all_ top lawyers so they will not try to advise the military on what orders are lawful is not relevant to removing _specific_ individuals from their post elsewhere. (It is, however, pretty relevant WRT our slide in fascism.)

              So that leaves us with exactly one white man: General James C. Slife, vice chief of staff of the Air Force.

              He probably was fired for supposedly giving women special treatment in the Air Force’s elite special tactics field. This is actual nonsense, he called for an investigation _into_ that, but is as what he was smeared with: https://www.vox.com/donald-trump/401174/trump-fired-generals

              So, to be clear here, we have Brown, who is supposedly doing DEI stuff, and Slife, who is supposedly helping one specific woman although he isn’t. Okay, there’s a very, VERY thin justification for removing them, even if the second is a lie and the first is just the general ‘encouraging Black people and women into the military’ that is 80% of what ‘DEI’ is there.

              Which then leaves Franchetti. Who is not, in any manner at all, have alleged to do _anything_ even vaguely DEI related at all. There just is nothing there.

              Her crime appears to have been that she _is_ a woman, and thus Hegseth, as he has claimed claimed repeated on podcasts, feels she does not deserve the position, despite not offering the tiniest bit of support to that claim.

              That is bigotry. That is how bigotry works. You just talk about the vague _vibes_ of how someone isn’t as good as other people don’t deserve their position.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC
                Ignored
                says:

                From my perspective, I do think that there should have been a lot more transparency in the firings. Hell, even something like Hegseth saying “I went out to lunch with each one of these guys and these six and I agreed that they’d be happier at Raytheon.”

                But hearing that it’s merely bigotry is much better than the worry that it was fascism.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird
                Ignored
                says:

                From my perspective, I do think that there should have been a lot more transparency in the firings.

                Hegseth has been incredibly transparent about why he fired the top JAG lawyers. He thinks they will get in the way of what he wants to do with the military. It’s not some secret, he keeps saying it.

                I admit he’s not super clear about what those things he’s planning on doing are, but it’s something involving questions around the constitution and lawful orders.

                Hey, do you know that Trump had to be talked out of ordering the military to fire on protestors during BLM? He was talked out of it by the Secretary of Defense.

                https://www.axios.com/2022/05/02/mark-esper-book-trump-protesters

                I mention this for no reason whatsoever.

                But hearing that it’s merely bigotry is much better than the worry that it was fascism.

                You do understand that fascism requires bigotry, right? Part of what distinguishes fascism from other forms of authoritarianism is the division of society into in-groups and out-groups and the scapegoating of the out-groups.

                But anyway, while firing various specific Joint Chiefs was ‘mere’ bigotry, firing the top JAG lawyers wasn’t. It was to make sure that the Secretary of Defense would not be ‘blocked’ from doing some unspecified stuff where apparently there were going to be questions about the legality and even constitutionality of orders.Report

  2. Michael Cain
    Ignored
    says:

    Re the first footnote… Justice Sotomayor has regularly remarked in public that the primary reason for the rapid drop in SCOTUS’s public approval polling is the number of precedents the conservative block is overturning. I figure the Impoundment Control Act is toast.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to Michael Cain
      Ignored
      says:

      If your prediction comes true, it’ll be interesting to see what constitutional basis SCOTUS can come up with for ruling it unconstitutional.Report

    • North in reply to Michael Cain
      Ignored
      says:

      Seems like, if that happens, originalism will be toast right along with it and considering that originalism has been the banner of pretty much all right wing judicial philosophy for my entire adult life (or longer) that’ll be something the right will miss pretty fiercely when the worm turns again. Unless, of course, they honestly think they can rig it so they never lose an election again.Report

      • CJColucci in reply to North
        Ignored
        says:

        You assume that blatant philosophical inconsistency and shame have more force than they do. The self-proclaimed originalists rarely do originalism in any rigorous or consistent way. Indeed, they rarely do it at all. They, like almost everyone else, are cafeteria originalists. The only potentially interesting question is whether they are cynics or merely believe their own press clippings.Report

        • North in reply to CJColucci
          Ignored
          says:

          I’m probably not assuming a lot but I think liberals and even centrists would be on very solid ground to contemptuously laugh and disregard every person to the right who ever mentions originalism again if SCOTUS just does the equivalent of ripping off the mask and cackling “you fools, it wasn’t principle, it was just will to power all along!”Report

  3. Arpa
    Ignored
    says:

    Citing your sources, we have $71.8 billion dollars of improper payments from the SSA alone. That’s “waste” if not fraud. Yes, it turns out we do actually have people who are paid government workers, who do catalog this.

    Let’s say Musk manages to cut that to a third of what it currently is? That’s about $50 billion dollars saved.

    Fifty Billion Dollars.

    That’s a lot more than the $200 million dollars that Treasury thinks they can squeeze out of SSA by going over “Payments to Dead People.”

    But, seriously, we have a lot of waste that can be cleaned up.

    SSA is just one program. And, again, citing your sources, one that isn’t actually “high error rate.”Report

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