38 thoughts on “Will the Real Free-Trade Party Please Stand Up?

  1. Whether it’s politically possible or not is a different question but we probably should be revisiting something like the TPP, and also a free trade agreement with the EU, and any Anglophone democracy. But we’ve already given enough to the Chinese. Every dollar to them is a dollar to an enemy. Their cheap cars are at our expense, literally.Report

    1. I agree with this.
      The axiom that “free trade enriches both parties” is true, but the question is, do we really want a nation like China to become wealthier?Report

      1. One of the things that I had failed to appreciate was that “both parties” was one heck of an aggregate.

        There were a lot of local green lines going up, sure. But there were also a lot of local red lines going down.

        And pointing out how, in aggregate, the green line was going up finally ended up striking me as exceptionally unpersuasive. Even if my green line was going up too.

        But the good news is that the Dow and NASDAQ are higher than ever before in history.Report

        1. As I always say, it’s a question of which you prefer: high employment and high goods cost, or everything’s cheap but everyone’s on the dole.

          And there’s a surprising horseshoe-theory concordance between Right and Left that the former is preferable!Report

    2. I also agree. There are further considerations too. In the 90’s and early aughts when American strength seemed overwhelming and, further, that wars for territory seemed backwards and pointless the question of defense was lower priority. Now, with both China and Russia nakedly exhibiting territorial lust defense considerations are more prominent. Civil manufacturing can be repurposed quickly to military manufacturing in many cases.

      Further, absent from Mr. Thorntons’ analysis is any mention of how purposefully, egregiously and destructively the Chinese have prioritized subsidizing and exporting manufacturing even to the detriment of their own people’s wellbeing. A strict free trader would say that free trade would remain advisable as it’d be, in essence, taking a subsidy from the Chinese to us but that would ignore the potential long term costs.

      Finally, there is an element of chickens coming home to roost as free traders were generally very indifferent to the plight of the losers from free trade here at home. Liberals can, at least, honestly claim that they tried to help however imperfectly but the right has always been something between indifferent to disdainful to those people and now they find themselves shocked that the masses have little love of free trade.

      But, yeah, free trade in the areas you talk about seems quite advisable and, ironically, a TPP style agreement would be an incredible boon to our position vis a vis the Chinese.Report

      1. Unsurprisingly I agree in full. I think the core mistake in the 90s was the belief in free trade in itself as opposed to a tool in the repertoire. The result is we sold ourselves short and failed to deal with the trade offs. Now where we do it the point should be for strategic advantage in a world where we aren’t as powerful as we once were. I get the sense the American public is not ready to be receptive to that kind of argument, at least not yet.Report

        1. The 90s thing was never about Free Trade, it was about Clinton paying back the bond traders who funded his campaigns by letting them send the manufacturing industry to Mexico and China where the labor was cheap.Report

    3. At some point the US and EU are going to have to reckon with the geopolitical consequences of their trade policies. There have been concerns raised in the US and EU about New Zealand being pulled into China’s orbit because of our close trade ties with China. But why do we have such close trade ties with China? Why does a country that mostly makes dairy products sell so much to a country that’s majority lactose intolerant? Because they will actually buy our stuff.

      New Zealand pursues trade agreements with a lot of countries, but most developed countries restrict trade in agricultural products, even in their trade agreements with us, and that makes it hard for us. I’d really rather not have our economy at the mercy of Xi Xinping, and New Zealand could be a useful bulwark against growing Chinese influence in the South Pacific. But at some point the US is going to have to decide it would rather remain the predominant global power or whether it would rather coddle its farmers.Report

      1. A very good point but a very painful point. The real brute aspect of free trade as a political issue is that its opponents are passionate with significant losses to absorb while its beneficiaries are everyone and the effect is subtle. That makes for absolutely savage politics and which is why it’s so hard to do.Report

  2. This is one of those perennial things where we can all agree that ‘all things being equal, fair and free trade is a win for everyone.’ Then we realize we don’t agree on the terms, free, fair, equal or trade.Report

    1. No. Free trade doesn’t depend on “equal” (actually it depends on different marginal productivities). It also doesn’t depend on “fair”.

      Counter intuitively, the benefits to trade happen to the country that is the least restrictive, not the most restrictive. China’s stupidly massive subsidies are giving American consumers free money.

      I oppose trade with Russia and China because it would be “a win for everyone”, not because it wouldn’t.Report

      1. The ‘things’ modified by ‘equal’ aren’t what you’re discussing… or maybe they are. But that’s what I’m getting at… ‘Free Trade’ is a totem or fetish or goblin that doesn’t mean what people say it means.

        Also… I’m not sure your last sentence parses? Missing a word somewhere?

        edit: for less clarity.Report

          1. Philip: more resources to do things that the US strategically opposes

            Things like mass murder, genocide, invading their neighbors, and so on.

            Free trade would make all of us richer. That’s a bad thing in this situation.Report

            1. Got it, thanks for clarifying the last sentence.

              I get that it seems to be consistent with the principle of ‘Free Trade’ as an axiomatic economic principle. That is, Free Trade is so unambiguously good that sometimes we have to prevent that good from being shared with our rivals.

              But if we can stop ‘Free Trade’ for political reasons, then that’s defining ‘Not Trading’ as ‘Free Trade’. Which is fine… we’re free to use free ambiguously. We’re free to apply rules to ‘Free Trade’ and the rules we think are good are part of the ‘Free Trade’ regime, and those rules we don’t like aren’t.

              Free Trade isn’t an axiomatic economic principle, it is a rhetorical device we apply to the rules based system (or game) under which we act. And that’s ok.Report

          1. Maybe some NGO’s to tackle the issue of Greed? Could probably get corporate funding for programs teaching an anti-greed message. When you think about it, do we really want to employ greedy people? Do you want to work next to greed in the workplace?

            I jest, but as a distributist, I’m genuinely open to new business modes/structures and trade laws.Report

            1. I was being somewhat tongue in cheek – but the reality is corporations these days prize ever growing profits above all else – and since labor costs are really one of the things they can control, its where they lean the hardest.Report

  3. There’s never been a free trade party in the US (or probably anywhere), historically. Republicans were the party of business and tariffs, and Democrats were the party of labor and quotas and subsidies. Reagan and Bush had to run a gauntlet to get to NAFTA. This is a golden age of trade, and like all golden ages, the people near the end won’t/don’t realize it. I do think the anti-trade motivations are a little different than usual though. There’s a lot more opposition to globalism in general and China in particular (although if you look at what people used to say about the Japanese even at the height of support for trade there’s always been an anti-foreign element).Report

      1. Part of me has always wondered how much of that was related to lots and lots of people with memories of Japan as the enemy. My grandfather fought in the Pacific and the reaction he had to my mom buying a Camry in the 80s is the stuff of family legend.

        Ironically they’re one of the countries for which it is probably in our interest to be rich, and maybe even re-armed.Report

        1. It’s like the Made in America canard – with most of the Honda’s and Toyotas (and Mercedes) we purchase assembled in plants in the US, what special place does or should Ford or Honda or any car company really hold in our economic policies.Report

          1. It is really a canard but it is somewhat harmless? I mean, sure, it’s distortionary but I’m not honestly sure if shipping fully assembled cars from overseas actually pencils out vs shipping the parts and assembling them here. As distortions go it doesn’t strike me as an egregious one- clearly Toyota, Honda, BMW etc feel the same way.Report

        2. There were some weird dynamics post-war.

          Germany, they were our enemy, but they were Protestants like the rest of us, and they’d always been great at science. They could make things. I wouldn’t want a German for a neighbor, but now they needed our help against the Russians, and we were mostly upset that when our tanks were rolling across Europe, we had to stop.

          France and Italy were third-world Catholic cowards. They had no economies but made fancy things like perfume and dresses, and they’d had great cultures. They were ok, I guess.

          Japan attacked us. They were sneaky. They were nothing, and they thought they could take us on. They killed tens of thousands of Marines holding on to uninhabitable islands. And then they started exporting cheap stuff, $5 cameras and toys. “Made in Japan” meant garbage. Then they started making little cars that you could park three of on the hood of a Chevrolet. The level of disrespect toward Japanese products is something you can’t explain to people who weren’t there.Report

        3. It sounds enormously plausible and Pinky’s fascinating response suggests that you may well be right (I was in rural Canada through to the 2000’s and just couldn’t say).Report

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