Alabama Supreme Court IVF Embryos Ruling: Read It For Yourself

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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26 Responses

  1. Dark Matter
    Ignored
    says:

    Bad law has bad outcomes.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Dark Matter
      Ignored
      says:

      For Alabama, this means the entire IVF industry will leave. Not all frozen embryos will live and if we’re going to claim it’s murder when they don’t, then that’s a problem.Report

      • InMD in reply to Dark Matter
        Ignored
        says:

        Most frozen emrbyos will not live and never would have even if created through intercourse. This seems like the last direction the pro-life, pro-natalist kind of movement should be going. It doesn’t come off as principled, albeit unpopular, just reductio ad absurdum.Report

  2. InMD
    Ignored
    says:

    Personally I miss when ‘every sperm is sacred’ was satire.Report

  3. Chip Daniels
    Ignored
    says:

    Once again its noteworthy to see the reaction from the MAGA crowd.
    Shock, horror, outrage?

    Nope.

    I would hazard a guess that only a very tiny fraction of MAGAs actually believe that a fertilized embryo is a human person, but in their pursuit of power they are willing to grant permission to the most extreme elements.Report

    • Andrew Donaldson in reply to Chip Daniels
      Ignored
      says:

      I refuse to buy from anyone claiming to be “pro life” that IVF – an extremely expensive and involved process someone has to undertake, often for years, for the express purpose of creating a human life – is a bad thing, even wicked to the most extreme elements who decry it. Utter hypocrisy.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Andrew Donaldson
        Ignored
        says:

        Fred Clark at Slacktivist had a recurring post about the Massacre of the Innocents, where an IVF facility lost power one day and some 3,000 frozen embryos thawed and expired.

        He sarcastically referred to how naturally this would be a celebrated horror among the pro life folks, 3,000 babies killed in a single afternoon, and wondered why it never seemed to get much play.Report

  4. Marchmaine
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t think y’all have read the facts of the case — which is the point of Andrew posting the doc.

    This doesn’t really fit the narrative folks are assuming:

    “The plaintiffs allege that the Center was obligated to keep the
    cryogenic nursery secured and monitored at all times. But, in December
    2020, a patient at the Hospital managed to wander into the Center’s
    fertility clinic through an unsecured doorway. The patient then entered
    the cryogenic nursery and removed several embryos. The subzero
    temperatures at which the embryos had been stored freeze-burned the
    patient’s hand, causing the patient to drop the embryos on the floor,
    killing them. ”

    The plaintiffs are suing for wrongful death in lieu of negligence etc. The plaintiffs are pro-IVF.Report

    • InMD in reply to Marchmaine
      Ignored
      says:

      This is a good point and shows why I shouldn’t comment before I have my coffee.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Marchmaine
      Ignored
      says:

      From the ruling:
      “Here, the text of the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act is sweeping and unqualified. It applies to all children, born and unborn, without limitation.”

      Born and unborn, without limitation, was the intent of the legislature. I don’t see any misunderstanding here.Report

      • KenB in reply to Chip Daniels
        Ignored
        says:

        ” I don’t see any misunderstanding here.”

        Read the act itself — the action needs to be brought by a parent or legal representative of the minor, and the death has to be caused by wrongful act, omission, or negligence. The decision doesn’t inherently end IVF, it just raises the risk of lawsuit. You can argue whether the ruling was correct or incorrect, or whether it’s a good or bad outcome, but what some above were saying is not applicable to this particular case.Report

        • InMD in reply to KenB
          Ignored
          says:

          Not immediately, no, but it’s certainly a precedent that if followed to its logical conclusion could create serious problems for them. In reality any clinic that provides IVF is already having people sign very comprehensive waivers, just as any doctor, hospital, etc. Nevertheless such places are still successfully sued despite the waivers. More importantly there is now a precedent set by the state supreme court that would be persuasive authority on the kinds of questions that are animating the response.Report

          • KenB in reply to InMD
            Ignored
            says:

            Sure, I’m not defending the approach overall, and this is far outside any areas of particular knowledge that I have. OTOH I can see an argument from a more philosophical point of view that the prospective parents were already relating to these embryos as potential children, and so having some of them destroyed outside the normal process of IVF _feels like_ the loss of a child. Was there a less “child”-oriented, more simple negligence course of action they could have pursued against the clinic for this?Report

          • DensityDuck in reply to InMD
            Ignored
            says:

            “it’s certainly a precedent that if followed to its logical conclusion could create serious problems for them.”

            congratulations you invented Slippery-Slope ReasoningReport

            • InMD in reply to DensityDuck
              Ignored
              says:

              No, that’s just how the law works. If some other question comes up of whether an early stage embryo of the kind held by IVF clinics is a ‘child’ lower courts in Alabama will look to how the highest court of the state has answered it, including in other contexts.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to DensityDuck
              Ignored
              says:

              We’re already past that point on the slope, with no end in sight:

              Fearing prosecution, UAB pauses in vitro fertilization after Alabama embryo court ruling
              The University of Alabama at Birmingham health system has paused in vitro fertilization procedures following an Alabama Supreme Court decision due to fear of criminal prosecution and lawsuits, a spokeswoman said.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Chip Daniels
                Ignored
                says:

                Like I said. Work-to-rule. Someone else’s fault. Don’t blame ME, blame the people who wrote the rule, and the fact that I have a serious philosophical dispute with them and want to recruit you as a partisan for my cause is merely a fortunate coincidence and it would be entirely inappropriate to suggest I’m literally holding your children hostage.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to KenB
          Ignored
          says:

          I’m just pointing out how some portion of the GOP holds that a fertilized ovum is no different than a newborn baby, and will enact law and policy to that effect.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Marchmaine
      Ignored
      says:

      “The plaintiffs are suing for wrongful death in lieu of negligence etc. The plaintiffs are pro-IVF.”

      So this whole thing is more like when the Supreme Court ruled that someone who “hacked” a computer by talking a user into sharing their password was guilty of Illegally Accessing A Computer System, and this was widely reported as “omg supreme court just said password sharing was illegal, Netflix is DOOMED”…Report

  5. Slade the Leveller
    Ignored
    says:

    Extrauterine children?Report

  6. Philip H
    Ignored
    says:

    In a state where abortion is no longer legal, this ruling could well mean a rapist could sue a woman victim if she traveled out of state to get an abortion.Report

  7. Chip Daniels
    Ignored
    says:

    Shock, anger, confusion grip Alabama after court ruling on embryos
    Jennifer Lincoln, a board certified OB/GYN who practices in Portland, Ore., said she doesn’t think people understand how “scary” the Alabama ruling is. She raised a common scenario: A patient undergoing IVF has an egg retrieval that leads to the creation of multiple embryos, with the hope that at least one turns into a live birth. If successful, the remaining embryos remain frozen for possible future use — but not all may be used.

    “If someone has five embryos left and they decide not to have any more kids and want those embryos destroyed — and someone in that physician’s office hears that, could [the doctor] be criminalized for being an accomplice in a crime?” Lincoln asked.

    In case anyone is unclear on the answer:

    Lila Rose, president and founder of Live Action, a national antiabortion organization, heralded the court for showing “moral clarity” in ruling that the unborn deserve the same rights as children.

    “You have children being created in petri dishes at will and then destroyed at will and used for experimentation,” Rose said. “It’s not acceptable to leave human beings on ice. It’s not acceptable to destroy them. These are not commodities.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/02/20/alabama-supreme-court-ivf-embryos/Report

  8. DensityDuck
    Ignored
    says:

    Looking forward to the usual work-to-rule method of protest leading to some rotten result and the doc in question acting like it wasn’t his decision for it to happen that way.

    I mean, I’m on board with doctors saying “I gotta assess the risk personally before I determine what to do for my clients”, just so long as they’re on board with me sliding my personal view of doctors more towards them being jumped-up Jiffy Lube technicians.Report

  9. Chip Daniels
    Ignored
    says:

    Biden ties Trump tight to the Alabama court’s IVF ruling

    “Tonight Donald Trump will come face to face with the horrific reality he created: speaking in a state that has banned abortion entirely with no exceptions for rape or incest,” Kevin Munoz, spokesperson for Biden’s campaign, said in a statement. Munoz was referring to Tennessee’s abortion law that changed after the Dobbs Supreme Court ruling, a decision Trump has taken credit for.

    I’m starting to think that Uncle Joe Brandon is a bit smarter than some people thin.Report

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