A Deep Dive Into the Trump Ballot Ban
I spent a little time today skimming through the Colorado Supreme Court decision in Anderson v. Griswold, which shall hereafter be known as the “Trump Ballot Ban” case. It is interesting reading, not least because of its appeals to its target audience comprised of six people. You know them by name: John Roberts, Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett.
As I read through the Colorado decision, one of the first things that I noticed was that much of the ruling dealt with Colorado statutes that allow the state’s voters to challenge candidates who they believe to be unqualified to be on the ballot. The court ultimately ruled that the voters challenging Trump’s access to the ballot had standing to sue to remove Trump from the ballot.
Not all states have such laws, however. If you’d like to know whether you can challenge candidates in your state, I have not found a good resource that sums up state laws regarding removing candidates from the ballot, but the Project on Government Oversight notes that all 50 states have excluded ineligible candidates for various reasons and suggests contacting the Secretary of State’s office to determine the process for your state.
In terms of the 14th Amendment, the ruling holds that the ineligibility for insurrectionists attaches without congressional action and without a conviction. The ruling quotes “The Civil Rights Cases” of 1883 in which the Supreme Court held that the 14th Amendment “is undoubtedly self-executing without any ancillary legislation, so far as its terms are applicable to any existing state of circumstances.”
The ruling also asserts the court’s authority to determine Trump’s eligibility under the 14th Amendment, but it doesn’t go into detail about the fact that text, history, and tradition do not require a criminal conviction for sedition or a similar charge, but the group that underwrote the lawsuit, the Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW), does provide historical background on officeholder bans.
The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868 and the purpose of Section 3 was to prevent voters in the southern states from sending former Confederates back to Washington and their state capitols and county seats. Defiant rebels surely would have kept the same elected officials under the old-but-new flag given the option. In practice, the amendment banned thousands of defeated rebels from holding office, but very few were ever prosecuted for their roles in secession.
Most often, the former Confederates either did not run for office or had their eligibility reinstated under the Amnesty Act of 1872. (The amendment allows the ban to be lifted by a “vote of two-thirds of each House.”) Nevertheless, there are a handful of cases in which former Confederates were denied various offices without criminal convictions. In fact, it seems that criminal convictions were the exception rather than the rule. In several cases, courts determined in civil cases that the offenders were ineligible, but in other cases, Congress refused to seat ineligible election winners without a court order. (All of these cases are cited in the CREW link.)
Not all of the 14th Amendment bans were Confederates. Victor Berger was one of the rare instances in which the 14th Amendment was applied to a convicted politician. Berger was a socialist convicted under the Espionage Act during World War I. The House of Representatives refused to seat him initially but relented after his conviction was overturned in 1921.
The most recent case was Couy Griffin, who was convicted of trespass for his actions on January 6. Griffin was removed from his post as county commissioner in New Mexico under the 14th Amendment. His ban was upheld by the state supreme court.
As I discussed in my post detailing the news of the ruling, there is some debate over whether the 14th Amendment applies to the president. The Colorado court tackled the issue head-on and concluded that it does.
The ruling notes that in the plain language of the time, the presidency would be considered an office of the United States, noting that “dictionaries from the time of the Fourteenth Amendment’s ratification define ‘office’ as a ‘particular duty, charge or trust conferred by public authority, and for a public purpose,’ that is ‘undertaken by… authority from government or those who administer it.’” The ruling also cites a litany of historical evidence.
In a quote from the recent Heller decision authored by Antonin Scalia, the Colorado ruling opines, “When interpreting the Constitution, we prefer a phrase’s normal and ordinary usage over ‘secret or technical meanings that would not have been known to ordinary citizens in the founding generation.’”
The ruling also confirms the validity of the use of the January 6 Commission report as evidence against the former president and affirms that Donald Trump did engage in insurrection. The term itself is not defined in law, but the court decided a single definition of the word is not necessary, “rather, it suffices for us to conclude that any definition of ‘insurrection’ for purposes of Section Three would encompass a concerted and public use of force or threat of force by a group of people to hinder or prevent the U.S. government from taking the actions necessary to accomplish a peaceful transfer of power in this country.”
I like the simple definition that the ruling attributes to Trump’s counsel, which acknowledged that an insurrection is “more than a riot but less than a rebellion.”
The court then cites evidence that Trump laid the groundwork for claims of fraud long before his loss and summoned his supporters to Washington for what he knew was a potentially violent demonstration. He then exhorted the crowd with the words, “If you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”
After the violence began, the court’s summary continues, “President Trump ignored pleas to intervene and instead called on Senators, urging them to help delay the electoral count, which is what the mob, upon President Trump’s exhortations, was also trying to achieve. And President Trump took no action to put an end to the violence. To the contrary, as mentioned above, when told that the mob was chanting, ‘Hang Mike Pence,’ President Trump responded that perhaps the Vice President deserved to be hanged. President Trump also rejected pleas from House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy, imploring him to tell his supporters to leave the Capitol, stating, ‘Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are.’”
The majority of the court agreed, “We conclude that the foregoing evidence, the great bulk of which was undisputed at trial, established that President Trump engaged in insurrection. President Trump’s direct and express efforts, over several months, exhorting his supporters to march to the Capitol to prevent what he falsely characterized as an alleged fraud on the people of this country were indisputably overt and voluntary. Moreover, the evidence amply showed that President Trump undertook all these actions to aid and further a common unlawful purpose that he himself conceived and set in motion: prevent Congress from certifying the 2020 presidential election and stop the peaceful transfer of power.”
Colorado also found that since “President Trump intended that his speech would result in the use of violence or lawless action on January 6 to prevent the peaceful transfer of power,” his speech is not protected by the First Amendment. The court examined Trump’s speech at the Stop the Steal rally and found that it failed the Brandenburg tests crafted by the Supreme Court to determine when inflammatory speech crosses the line to incitement.
Even though Colorado’s Supreme Court is composed entirely of justices appointed by Democrats, the reasoning in the case is such that it should be appreciated by originalists and textualists. Indeed, I kept noticing points that referred back to the conservative justices that currently sit on the US Supreme Court such as the Scalia quote and a reference to a ruling by former Colorado judge, Neil Gorsuch. (“As then-Judge Gorsuch recognized in Hassan, it is ‘a state’s legitimate interest in protecting the integrity and practical functioning of the political process’ that ‘permits it to exclude from the ballot candidates who are constitutionally prohibited from assuming office.’”) This ruling was obviously written with an audience of conservative jurists in mind.
The Colorado court clearly expects the Supreme Court to review their work. The decision explains what is to happen next:
The Secretary may not list President Trump’s name on the 2024 presidential primary ballot, nor may she count any write-in votes cast for him. See § 1-7-114(2), C.R.S. (2023) (“A vote for a write-in candidate shall not be counted unless that candidate is qualified to hold the office 133 for which the elector’s vote was cast.”). But we stay our ruling until January 4, 2024 (the day before the Secretary’s deadline to certify the content of the presidential primary ballot). If review is sought in the Supreme Court before the stay expires, it shall remain in place, and the Secretary will continue to be required to include President Trump’s name on the 2024 presidential primary ballot until the receipt of any order or mandate from the Supreme Court.
In other words, the ball is in the Supreme Court’s hands. If the US Supreme Court takes the case, then the stay remains in effect and Trump will be listed on the ballot. If the Supreme Court refuses to hear the case, the stay expires on January 4. Donald Trump’s name will not appear on the Colorado ballot, and write-in votes for him will not be counted.
If the US Supreme Court does take the case, what happens will probably depend on the Court’s decision. If the Court rules in Trump’s favor then he will be on the ballot as normal. The big question mark involves what will happen if the US Supreme Court upholds Colorado’s ruling. We could end up in a situation where Trump is not eligible but his name still appears on the ballot. At this point, we also don’t know whether Trump would be ineligible nationally or whether the Court would restrict its ruling to Colorado (although I don’t know why they would limit the reach of their ruling in this case).
The situation might be similar to the 2016 Republican primary when I voted early for Marco Rubio. By the time Election Day came in my state, he had already dropped out of the race. My presidential primary vote was more-or-less wasted that year. Potential Trump voters might do well to wait until the last day to cast their ballots this year as well. Or better yet, just vote for a candidate whose eligibility is not in question.
For years, I’ve heard Republicans say that America is a republic, not a democracy. In truth, both those labels fit along with several others. If we want to nail it down, constitutional democratic republic is probably the most accurate.
But the point is that we aren’t a pure democracy where the majority rules. We a nation of laws, and one of those laws says that if you take an oath of office and then “engage in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies” then you don’t get to be part of American government anymore.
I don’t know how the Supreme Court will rule on this case (although I’m pretty sure that it will rule), but if it decides that Donald Trump is ineligible, that is not an assault on democracy. It will have followed the clear intent of the framers of the 14th Amendment.
Ruling Donald Trump ineligible will require significant moral courage (as well as physical courage given the tendency of Trump’s supporters to become violent), but it’s the right call. The law is clear.
A couple things:
1. I think the ruling a Bad Thing (but not necessarily a bad ruling) because I think “needs a criminal conviction” is the appropriate standard to use in terms of making Section 3 of the 14th Amendment outside of the immediate aftermath of the Civil War. The two non-Confederate examples were both convicted of crimes,[1] and I think that’s necessary to avoid easy-to-envision partisan abuses.[2]
2. At this point I am expecting 9-0 from SCOTUS overturning the CO Supreme Court decision. Ruling Trump ineligible nationally is something I can’t imagine there being 5 votes for, or even 3, and setting up a standard where every state decides for itself sounds like it’s asking for all kinds of trouble, most especially the aforementioned partisan abuses.
[1] Though Berger’s conviction was ridiculous.
[2] E.g., “Joe Biden should be kept of the ballot because he’s giving aid and comfort to America’s enemies by opening the border!”Report
Re Berger: The difficulty in considering elected officials being expelled from the House or Senate is that both chambers have always had the authority to expel a member on a two-thirds vote. It’s not at all clear Berger was expelled pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment. That says something about history, and also about how political bodies act in ways different than judicial ones.
Re Griffin: The district court decision was appealed to the New Mexico Supreme Court, but Griffin failed to file a statement of issues, so the case was dismissed for a paperwork omission. (Probably representing himself?) I find it suspect that the Colorado Supreme Court references this New Mexico trial court decision, but makes a point of saying that Chief Justice Chase’s opinion in another “Griffin’s case” is “non-binding,” as the Chief Justice was acting as a circuit judge at the time.
Chase’s opinion was that Section 3 is not self-executing and Congress needs to promulgate laws since “proceedings, evidence, decisions, and enforcements of decisions . . . are indispensable.” Congress then passed the Enforcement act of 1870. Chase was formerly the Secretary of Treasury under Lincoln, tasked with overseeing the confiscation of enemy contraband (mainly cotton) and engaged in negotiations with Congress on the confiscation acts. He was allied and close to the Radical Republicans who drafted the 14th Amendment and its enforcement acts. If the SCOTUS chooses to go this route, they will see his opinion as contemporaneous understanding of the 14th Amendment’s Section 3 & 5.Report
I agree from stem to stern.Report
Hard pass. The fact that senate republicans refused to convict a guy who sent a mob to kill them was an act of high cowardice in service of cementing power they don’t deserve. If Colorado is over turned SCOTUS will become more complicit in the end of our democracy. Colorado jurists stoned up. Time for the rest of us to.Report
It usually takes a generation to go from “they are dehumanizing us” to “those things aren’t human”.Report
how do you arrive at any sort of analyses of lack of humanity here? I said at the time of that impeachment that Senate Republicans were cowards for not convicting TFG. I stand by that assessment. He engaged in and gave comfort to an insurrection. Last time someone did that in the US, we fought a war, defeated the traitors in question and then passed the 14th Amendment to keep them out of the reunified government. The Colorado Supreme Court has done nothing more then point out that we are at the same cross roads 150 or years later, and availed itself of the appropriate response legally. None of that dehumanizes anyone.Report
Five years ago, this would be depicted as evil people restricting voters’ rights. Now, you’re comfortable with it. I don’t know exactly what the next step will be, but …well, I guess you’re ok with limiting bad people’s speech, but that’s been true for a while. So we’ll see what comes next.Report
Five years ago, this would be depicted as evil people restricting voters’ rights.
Five years ago, disqualifying a former President from running for President again because he sent a mob to attack Congress while attempting to retain power after losing an election…
…like, I don’t think that would have been called an attack on voters’ rights. Or dehumanizing voters.
How do you even get from here to there.Report
Why do you emphasize the word “again”? (Sorry if this is a tangent.)Report
Because it’s insane that a dude who has already abused the powers of the Office of the President once in an attempt to hold onto power after losing an election is being given a second bite at that particular apple.
We’re now on, like, the ninth line of defense against that kind of thing happening.
That ninth line of defense is not going to work for a lot of reasons, not least because we haven’t seriously used in at least a century, but it’s the most natural thing in the world that people are trying it.Report
Because this is the guy in question:
He intentionally, via multiple pathways, attempted to subvert the will of the voters because he didn’t and still doesn’t want to loose. He doesn’t deserve that bite.Report
I am perfectly ok with restricting the ability of people to vote for open authoritarians who represent an existential threat to our democracy. the GOP has many other candidates it can nominate to present its policy preferences to the public.Report
“You can’t vote,” is so wildly different from, “You can’t vote for this one guy in particular because they’re disqualified from office,” I don’t see how they even wind up in the same conversation.
Also, not for nothing, but the GOP’s record on this is way worse than the Democrats’, it’s just that it didn’t work because the basis for their attempts at disqualification was a bizarre racist conspiracy theory.Report
We are not restricting the right of anyone to cast a vote or have their vote being counted. But we are enforcing the law that says when you engage in an attack on the integrity of the US Constitution via elections you don’t get to be on the pick list. I won’t like Nikki Haley’s policies any more then I’d like Trump’s, but she isn’t likely to refuse to honor the will of voters.Report
OK, this is going to sound strange, but hear me out. This isn’t my primary argument, but something I just thought of. In the argument about gay marriage, the left said that gay marriage bans discriminated against gay people. The right replied that the laws restricting marriage to one man and one woman applied to everyone. The left responded that the right to marriage was infringed upon by restricting whom a person could marry. By the same logic, wouldn’t you have to say that the right to vote is infringed upon by restricting whom a person can vote for?Report
It is a restriction, but it is not infringement, for the following reasons:
1. It’s one guy. You can always find another guy, and this does not prevent you from voting from an entire class of guy in a way that prevents you from getting adequate representation. This makes the restriction involved more analogous to the still-standing and widely accepted prohibition of bigamy.
2. It’s not discrimination on the basis of a protected class, unlike a prohibition against gay marriage (which was, among other things, discrimination on the basis of sex). It’s discrimination on the basis of conduct that the state has an axiomatic interest in suppressing: engaging in insurrection.
3. It’s in line with the way we interpret voting rights in all sorts of other contexts. Maybe some environmentalists would like to vote for Greta Thunberg for President, and two of the reasons for her disqualification (national origin and age) are a bit more suspect than engaging in insurrection, but it’s still widely accepted as fine.
4. It’s a restriction explicitly included in the text of the Constitution, and in line with major concerns that animated both the Founders and the people who enacted the Reconstruction Amendments.
I can definitely think of restrictions on voting that would be infringements, but this isn’t one of them.
I still don’t like the ruling because I think the low bar it sets for disqualification is an invitation to abuse. But if, say, Trump is convicted on either the federal conspiracy charges, or the Georgia RICO charges, and one or more states keeps him off the ballot for that reason, I think that would be legitimate.Report
The bigamy prohibition isn’t particularly well justified except via ‘The way we’ve always done it’ and ‘it’s confusing for the law, which assumes one spouse’, along with a side of ‘This has historically been non-consensual and even unknown to other partners and we didn’t bother to just make it require consent of all parties’ nonsense.
A better exception is the incest prohibitions, which say ‘You specifically cannot marry, like, these specific eight people who are too closely related to you, for pretty understandable and well-defined policy reasons’.
Likewise, people who commit insurrection against the US should not be in public office. Especially as Trump’s involved literal abuse of power…the actual amendment included people who literally just happened to be in Congress at the time and didn’t really _do_ anything except go politically where their state was going, and basically just walked out of their job. What Trump did was way worse, and way more dangerous to allow a repeat of. (Not worse than the civil war, I clarify. Just worse than the behavior of a lot of people who ended up barred from office and had basically done nothing wrong.)
The only actual question is ‘How do we determine, legally, if someone committed insurrection’. I am not comfortable with state governments just _deciding_ that Trump did that, but I’m also pretty uncomfortable that a) Congress didn’t react with impeachment and conviction (Which, again, it can do at any time.), and b) all the criminal cases are taking so long.
OTOH, there was actually a hearing on this.Report
The fact that senate republicans refused to convict a guy who sent a mob to kill them was an act of high cowardice in service of cementing power they don’t deserve.
Yup. There have been a ton of institutional failures that brought us to this point, and about 80% of them are the fault of Republicans being craven, partisan, or cravenly partisan.
But Republicans wield a lot of power at the state level, and if the Supreme Court lets this ruling stand, they’ll immediately start using it to exclude Democrats from ballots, exploiting loopholes, weak points, and lacunae in state election laws that were built without any consideration that they might need to adjudicate whether a candidate is ineligible for office based on Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
If they rule in favor of Trump, none of that can happen.
This isn’t a slippery slope.
It’s a cliff, and the Colorado Supreme Court just put one foot over the abyss.Report
And, in addition to all of pillsy’s very pertinent points it’s also a gigantic shiny golden political gift to the GOP. They’ve wanted a way to get rid of Trump while keeping his voters since the moment Trump rode down that golden escalator. This is that holy grail they’ve been looking for.
Frankly, Philip, I had no idea you were so profoundly fond of the libertarian plutocratic wing of the GOP.Report
As I note – I am more interested in two candidates from two parties whose policies present two separate visions for America. Whatever it takes to get back to that point has my support.
And frankly I want the GOP confronted by their own failures in not tossing him sooner.Report
But liberal courts banning him from the ballot would have the opposite effect. In a scenario where Trump was banned from the ballot the eventual GOP nominee would bearhug Trump while loudly denouncing the decision and the liberals who handed it down. The confrontation would be greatly put off- indeed the odds are good that the decision would create a new and far more effective version of Trump.Report
Is there any possible scenario which would NOT result in the GOP embracing Trump in a bearhug?
“We can’t arrest Fat Tony- all the mobsters will be waiting for him when he gets out and embrace him as a goodfella!”
This refrain of “We can’t enforce the law because the GOP will turn against the law” seems self-defeating.
We have been arresting and convicting dozens of insurrection conspirators and charging many more including Trump himself.
The GOP has embraced them all as martyrs. But we do it anyway.
There is nothing, NOTHING the Democrats can do to change how Trumpists view Trump. Lets just use whatever tools we have to thwart their attempt to destroy our democracy.Report
Absolutely there is. If Trump loses in ’24, either barely, solidly or decisively, he then will be slowly but concretely dragged to accountability for all his misbehavior by the steady click click clicking ratchet of the various investigations and cases against him.Report
That isn’t quite what I meant.
I was referring to the theory that IF Democrats do THIS, THEN Republicans will do THAT.
Which is demonstrably false. The radicalism of the Republicans has never been in reaction to norm-breaking by Democrats, but simply their determination to rule regardless of the will of the people.Report
Narrowly you are correct: there is no literal barrier to Republicans doing “That” which is eliminated by Democrats first doing “This”.
Broadly, however, you are wrong. There is not a barrier, per say but there is a norm. The Republicans haven’t breached it so far. The CO lawsuit (if it stands) would breach that norm. It is blatantly obvious that if the Democrats breach that norm first then it would make it much easier for the GOP to breach that same norm in response. This is beyond obvious.
Moreover, it is also beyond obvious that if the norm (of letting each party have their presidential nominees on each state ballot) were to fall and states began banning candidates from their ballots this is a tit for tat battle that, if taken to its natural conclusion, would redound to the benefit of Trumpians, Trump and the GOP in its current authoritarian adjacent state. By both states controlled and by congressional delegation counts the GOP could appoint the next president in ’24 if the contest became determined by those considerations.
That makes breaching the norm first absolute lunacy as a practical matter while being both politically ill-advised and constitutionally wobbly.Report
At the same time, the Constitution says what it does and all of the Judges who have looked at this, even the ones who ruled against banning him, ruled Trump had engaged in insurrection.Report
A fact which no doubt warms Jack Smith’s heart.Report
Yeah, that’s an important thing. The one who said it didn’t bar him did so on weird technical distinctions of what ‘officer’ meant that do not really make any sense and have no historic justification.
And there is, of course, the argument that Pinky tries to make below, that the president doesn’t swear to ‘support the Constitution’, but only to ‘preserve, protect and defend the Constitution’.
Neither of these are actually reasonable loopholes in any manner at all. The idea that the amendment was not intended to apply to the highest office is, but is intended to bar a state Senator who did insurrection from merely resuming his state-level office is absurd.
Also, it’s worth pointing out: This only bars people from holding office _until the House and Senate undo it_.
It’s probably worth thinking of this amendment as a sort of automatic impeachment and barring from office (Which requires two-third majority to bar), except that itReport
Sorry if I’m repeating an argument that’s been discussed before.
Article VI includes the following:
“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”
Notice: “to support”.
Article II contains this:
“Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—”I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
Notice: not “to support”
Section 3 of the 14th Amendment is:
“No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.”
How can this section be held to apply to the presidency?Report
How do you preserve, protect and defend without supporting? And how can you have an Office (as president) and not be an officer?Report
Legal decisions often revolve around particular phrasing. If you wanted A in a contract, for example, you wouldn’t imply A, you’d say A. An amendment to a document that describes two oaths refers to one of them, we don’t assume it includes the other.
As for the second point, I think you’re confusing dependent and independent clauses.Report
my oath as a federal civil servant talks about giving true faith and allegiance to the Constitution as I “faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.” Thus making me a federal “officer.”
How exactly is that different then “faithfully executing the duties of the Office of President?” How is the President thus not also an officer?Report
I don’t know what point you’re making. The thing doesn’t apply to (officers…), it applies to (officers who, having…). That doesn’t include all officers.Report
You seem to be trying to find a way to allow TFG to weasel out of 14th amendment sanction for January 6th because the office of the Presidency is not explicitly mentioned AND because he doesn’t take an oath to support the Constitution the same as I do. Part of your “defense” to me above is that he isn’t an “officer” which is what I am rebuffing with the oath comparison. That aside, you can not, in any commonly understood sense of the words “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States” with out supporting it. And anyone who claims to do so without supporting it has no business anywhere near the Oval Office.
All that aside you are working really hard to keep a guy in the race you claim to not support and who you also state you believe should not be president.Report
I believe in laws not men. That’s reason enough. And again, I’m not saying that the president isn’t an officer, I’m saying that the president isn’t an officer who makes an oath to support the Constitution.Report
How does one preserve, protect and defend something one doesn’t support?Report
I don’t see a difference between protecting and defending something, but I have a feeling if you were to take your oath of office and refuse to say “defend”, that it’d be a problem. The law revolves around words. If you don’t use the right words, it doesn’t count. If a legal document uses one set of words for one thing and a second set for a second thing, we have to treat any further reference as if there’s a difference, right? Resident lawyers, can you confirm this?Report
How do you preserve, protect and defend something you don’t support?Report
I don’t see a difference between protecting and defending something, but I have the impression if you were to take your oath of office and refuse to say “defend”, that it’d be a problem. The law is particular about words. If you don’t use the right words, it doesn’t count. If a legal document uses one set of words for one thing and a second set for a second thing, we have to treat any further reference as if there’s a difference, right? OT lawyers, can you confirm this?Report
The President’s oath say he will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. You have quoted that oath above. Yet you, like a good many other here, say the 14th Amendment doesn’t apply to him because his oath does not contain the word support, as mine does. This argument appears to turn on the idea that one can preserve, protect and defend WITHOUT supporting. I am asking you to directly tell me how that works. I am asking to intellectually tell me how that works. I am not asking you if preserving is the same as defending. Because even if we follow your logic, you have to support the things you preserve protect and defend. Its axiomatic.
So I am asking you to clarify why you believe that he didn’t need to support while he preserved, protected and defended, so I can understand why he isn’t an officer of the US who had a duty, per the 14th, to support.Report
We’ve both made our points. I leave it to the lawyers.Report
OK, one other thing. Have there really been a good number of people making the same argument here? I don’t read a lot of Trump threads, because I find him (and also those threads) boring, I don’t like him, and most importantly I think all the attention focused on him makes him stronger.
I think the most common topics on this site are (1) whether Jaybird is being disingenuous, (2) the latest opportunity to denounce Trump, and (3) activities of local school boards, city councilmen, et cetera. When I see a gross distortion on such topics I’ll respond, but none of them are my favorite subjects.Report
Semi-serious question… If both houses of Congress pass an amendment with an exit clause, and 38 state legislatures ratify it, and some state meets any required conditions and leaves, has anyone violated an oath?Report
Are they intending to remain officers of the country they want to leave. Of course should they do so they’d be in a world of economic hurt unless they are California. So I don’t expect t we’d get to 38zReport
I expect that they would decide to leave in groups, not individually. Not too many groups, and all of them would wind up in the top 15 or even 10 economies in the world.Report
My first thought is, “legal insurrection” would be a great website name.Report
For what it’s worth, the actual decision from the CO Supreme Court goes into considerable detail (pp. 84-88) on this very point. Their reasoning is that the commitment to “preserve, protect, and defend” meets the plain language meaning of “support”, and look to the record around the 14th Amendment’s ratification and conclude that the original intent was to include the Presidency.
They even go a little further and argue that the President’s oath is specific oath, basically involving more specific type of support than the oath taken by other officers.
Finally, they point out it would be illogical to have Section 3 apply to every office but the most powerful one.Report
A key part of that argument that needs to be included is that the phrase “officer of the United States” is used in other places in the Constitution to refer to appointed officers in the executive branch, i.e. not the President or Vice President. The issue with the provision is not only is the President and Vice President not listed, but use of the phrase “officer of the United States” restates the intent not to include them. Here is a short summary with a table of the different categories of officers in the Constitution:
https://conlaw.jotwell.com/constitutional-officers-a-very-close-reading/
A few interesting points about the link. It’s written by Professor William Baude about the writings of Professor Seth Tillman in a largely approving manner. The Colorado Supreme Court decision relies heavily on an article by Baude & Paulson, while the dissent relies heavily on an article by Blackman & Tillman’s lengthy critique of the article.
Tillman has been writing a long time about this issue, and it became a central point of discussion in whether Hilary Clinton could be disqualified from the Office of the Presidency if found guilty of recordkeeping violations pursuant to statute that forbid such a person from holding an “office under the United States.” Tillman’s point then was no, the Presidency is not an “office under the United States.”Report
I understand what Tillman thinks he’s doing, but I want to point out that there’s not a lot of evidence that anyone actually intended all those different uses of the word office and officer to mean anything different, and the way that the writers would have done that is _describe_ it.
Instead, they used phrases that are near identical, did not bother to explain who they were talking about, and did not bother to actually argue this when creating these parts of the Constitution. There is absolutely no textual evidence to suggest that they actually meant to be saying different things, and certainly not any to show that they meant different things with the slightly different phrasing.
Also, Hillary Clinton couldn’t be disqualified from office if found guilty of a crime that forbids a person from holding an office under the United States, because the courts have already ruled that laws cannot add additional requirements to offices that have requirements laid out in the Constitution. It’s the reason we needed a constitutional amendment for the Presidential term limit, and why States cannot add Congressional term limits. You cannot bar someone from office by law.Report
Oh, and it’s worth pointing out how the two examples given in that are extremely silly. The reason Washington didn’t report his gift is he was George Washington and things were brand new and he probably didn’t realize he was supposed to. Likewise, if your order to report to the Senate every person who is an officer, you don’t really need to tell the Senate who is in the Senate or House, and they hopefully also know who the president is!
Likewise, the president is allowed to appoint all officers of the United States _that are not otherwise provided for_. Otherwise provided for, you know, like in the _first_ article of the Constitution where it explains how we get congressman.Report
It’s contagious! Maine has it now!
Meanwhile, the Colorado Secretary of State put Trump back on the ballot.
This is getting funny.Report
Not an accurate characterization of what the CO secretary of state did if you ask me, Jay.
“With the appeal filed, Donald Trump will be included as a candidate on Colorado’s 2024 Presidential Primary Ballot when certification occurs on January 5, 2024, unless the US Supreme Court declines to take the case or otherwise affirms the Colorado Supreme Court ruling,” Jena Griswold’s office said in a press release.
https://nypost.com/2023/12/28/news/colorado-puts-trump-back-on-2024-republican-primary-ballot/
I’m not laughing at the Maine decision beyond wondering if this’ll amp the pressure on the Supreme court to weigh in.Report
So the default is that he’s back on unless the SCotUS acts.
Lemme check the date… Jan 5th is Friday next. Is the SCotUS in session? Here is their calendar. Looks like they’re back in the office on the 5th.
We’ll see if anything gets done.
A “pocket veto” allows them to come in hung-over on Friday, not do anything, then say something about “moot” on Monday.
Of course… they may decline to hear the case before then. But, lemme tell ya, they ain’t gonna be in the office on the 1st and I will be shocked, shocked if they’re in the office on the 2nd.
The 3rd is the first *REAL* day that we’ll have tea leaves to read.Report
Unless they took Annual Leave, the clerks and staff will be back on the 2nd. I suspect the Justices have already talked about this, and instructed their clerks thusly. They can grant cert before close of business today if they choose. They are well aware of the Colorado deadline.Report
Maybe the person who leaked overturning Roe will send out a letter denying cert to the Colorado ruling with a forged signature!
Man, *THAT* would be *FUNNY*.Report
I don’t think Alito is that down on Trump.Report
I can think of any number of reasons they’d prefer not to. Among them being the fact that Ginni Thomas was semi-involved in the facts at issue.Report
Roberts seems to have made it extra clear he doesn’t want SCOTS involved in voting issues. He keeps writing or concurring with opinions that basically tell Congress and the states to sort it out. I suspect he will only allow this one under duress, and with Main and Colorado saying one thing and Michigan another, it gives him perfect cover to “permit” denying cert.
And given Justice Thomas’ tin ear on all the ethics questions raised over the last year about Harlan Crowe and Leonard Leo paying for stuff, I don’t see his wife’s involvement moving much of anything.Report
The ethics issues with Thomas are problems in themselves but this really goes beyond that. Among the many foreseeable crisis caused by Trump’s conduct is the possibility of it coming before a SCOTUS with a justice with an apparent interest in the outcome beyond anything I can think of. I mean, if this was ‘insurrection’ Thomas’ wife was a part of it.
Contra where the conversation went on the other posts it’s possible that the least bad outcome is to let the state courts sort this out.Report
States do get to control their election practices. Or so this Court has said more then once. We shall see.Report
I still think it pretty much has to end up in SCOTUS’ hands. If SCOTUS upholds the CO ruling then it’ll lend a significant veneer of credibility to the outcome and, with how the Court is stacked, will make it seem bipartisan. Plus Trump would be out nationally then.Report
Probably so. I am sure my priors are getting me out over my skis but something about the reaction to this is getting me steamed. A stupid game was played by Donald and now stupid prizes must be handed out. That is just life not some unfair conspiracy. It reminds me of my most incorrigible clients from my practice days.Report
On pure ideological merits I’m with you but I am a flesh and blood person and I see flesh and blood implications that need serious consideration.
But, really, everything about Trump and Trumpism should get people (and especially conservatives!!!) extremely steamed on an ideological level. So it makes sense that you’d feel torked.Report