A Deep Dive Into the Trump Ballot Ban

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

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63 Responses

  1. pillsy
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    says:

    A couple things:

    1. I think the ruling a Bad Thing (but not necessarily a bad ruling) because I think “needs a criminal conviction” is the appropriate standard to use in terms of making Section 3 of the 14th Amendment outside of the immediate aftermath of the Civil War. The two non-Confederate examples were both convicted of crimes,[1] and I think that’s necessary to avoid easy-to-envision partisan abuses.[2]

    2. At this point I am expecting 9-0 from SCOTUS overturning the CO Supreme Court decision. Ruling Trump ineligible nationally is something I can’t imagine there being 5 votes for, or even 3, and setting up a standard where every state decides for itself sounds like it’s asking for all kinds of trouble, most especially the aforementioned partisan abuses.

    [1] Though Berger’s conviction was ridiculous.

    [2] E.g., “Joe Biden should be kept of the ballot because he’s giving aid and comfort to America’s enemies by opening the border!”Report

    • PD Shaw in reply to pillsy
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      says:

      Re Berger: The difficulty in considering elected officials being expelled from the House or Senate is that both chambers have always had the authority to expel a member on a two-thirds vote. It’s not at all clear Berger was expelled pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment. That says something about history, and also about how political bodies act in ways different than judicial ones.

      Re Griffin: The district court decision was appealed to the New Mexico Supreme Court, but Griffin failed to file a statement of issues, so the case was dismissed for a paperwork omission. (Probably representing himself?) I find it suspect that the Colorado Supreme Court references this New Mexico trial court decision, but makes a point of saying that Chief Justice Chase’s opinion in another “Griffin’s case” is “non-binding,” as the Chief Justice was acting as a circuit judge at the time.

      Chase’s opinion was that Section 3 is not self-executing and Congress needs to promulgate laws since “proceedings, evidence, decisions, and enforcements of decisions . . . are indispensable.” Congress then passed the Enforcement act of 1870. Chase was formerly the Secretary of Treasury under Lincoln, tasked with overseeing the confiscation of enemy contraband (mainly cotton) and engaged in negotiations with Congress on the confiscation acts. He was allied and close to the Radical Republicans who drafted the 14th Amendment and its enforcement acts. If the SCOTUS chooses to go this route, they will see his opinion as contemporaneous understanding of the 14th Amendment’s Section 3 & 5.Report

    • North in reply to pillsy
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      says:

      I agree from stem to stern.Report

    • Philip H in reply to pillsy
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      says:

      Hard pass. The fact that senate republicans refused to convict a guy who sent a mob to kill them was an act of high cowardice in service of cementing power they don’t deserve. If Colorado is over turned SCOTUS will become more complicit in the end of our democracy. Colorado jurists stoned up. Time for the rest of us to.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        It usually takes a generation to go from “they are dehumanizing us” to “those things aren’t human”.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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          says:

          how do you arrive at any sort of analyses of lack of humanity here? I said at the time of that impeachment that Senate Republicans were cowards for not convicting TFG. I stand by that assessment. He engaged in and gave comfort to an insurrection. Last time someone did that in the US, we fought a war, defeated the traitors in question and then passed the 14th Amendment to keep them out of the reunified government. The Colorado Supreme Court has done nothing more then point out that we are at the same cross roads 150 or years later, and availed itself of the appropriate response legally. None of that dehumanizes anyone.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            Five years ago, this would be depicted as evil people restricting voters’ rights. Now, you’re comfortable with it. I don’t know exactly what the next step will be, but …well, I guess you’re ok with limiting bad people’s speech, but that’s been true for a while. So we’ll see what comes next.Report

            • pillsy in reply to Pinky
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              says:

              Five years ago, this would be depicted as evil people restricting voters’ rights.

              Five years ago, disqualifying a former President from running for President again because he sent a mob to attack Congress while attempting to retain power after losing an election…

              …like, I don’t think that would have been called an attack on voters’ rights. Or dehumanizing voters.

              How do you even get from here to there.Report

              • Pinky in reply to pillsy
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                says:

                Why do you emphasize the word “again”? (Sorry if this is a tangent.)Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                Because it’s insane that a dude who has already abused the powers of the Office of the President once in an attempt to hold onto power after losing an election is being given a second bite at that particular apple.

                We’re now on, like, the ninth line of defense against that kind of thing happening.

                That ninth line of defense is not going to work for a lot of reasons, not least because we haven’t seriously used in at least a century, but it’s the most natural thing in the world that people are trying it.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                Because this is the guy in question:

                The Detroit News reviewed a recording of a call former President Donald Trump made to two Michigan county officials in 2020, urging them not to certify the election results from Detroit.

                The call was previously known and reported by CNN – and condemned at the time by election experts and Michigan Democrats, who said it was a stunning attempt by a sitting president to pressure local officials to interfere with an election.

                He intentionally, via multiple pathways, attempted to subvert the will of the voters because he didn’t and still doesn’t want to loose. He doesn’t deserve that bite.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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              says:

              Five years ago, this would be depicted as evil people restricting voters’ rights.

              I am perfectly ok with restricting the ability of people to vote for open authoritarians who represent an existential threat to our democracy. the GOP has many other candidates it can nominate to present its policy preferences to the public.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                “You can’t vote,” is so wildly different from, “You can’t vote for this one guy in particular because they’re disqualified from office,” I don’t see how they even wind up in the same conversation.

                Also, not for nothing, but the GOP’s record on this is way worse than the Democrats’, it’s just that it didn’t work because the basis for their attempts at disqualification was a bizarre racist conspiracy theory.Report

              • Philip H in reply to pillsy
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                says:

                We are not restricting the right of anyone to cast a vote or have their vote being counted. But we are enforcing the law that says when you engage in an attack on the integrity of the US Constitution via elections you don’t get to be on the pick list. I won’t like Nikki Haley’s policies any more then I’d like Trump’s, but she isn’t likely to refuse to honor the will of voters.Report

              • Pinky in reply to pillsy
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                says:

                OK, this is going to sound strange, but hear me out. This isn’t my primary argument, but something I just thought of. In the argument about gay marriage, the left said that gay marriage bans discriminated against gay people. The right replied that the laws restricting marriage to one man and one woman applied to everyone. The left responded that the right to marriage was infringed upon by restricting whom a person could marry. By the same logic, wouldn’t you have to say that the right to vote is infringed upon by restricting whom a person can vote for?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                It is a restriction, but it is not infringement, for the following reasons:

                1. It’s one guy. You can always find another guy, and this does not prevent you from voting from an entire class of guy in a way that prevents you from getting adequate representation. This makes the restriction involved more analogous to the still-standing and widely accepted prohibition of bigamy.

                2. It’s not discrimination on the basis of a protected class, unlike a prohibition against gay marriage (which was, among other things, discrimination on the basis of sex). It’s discrimination on the basis of conduct that the state has an axiomatic interest in suppressing: engaging in insurrection.

                3. It’s in line with the way we interpret voting rights in all sorts of other contexts. Maybe some environmentalists would like to vote for Greta Thunberg for President, and two of the reasons for her disqualification (national origin and age) are a bit more suspect than engaging in insurrection, but it’s still widely accepted as fine.

                4. It’s a restriction explicitly included in the text of the Constitution, and in line with major concerns that animated both the Founders and the people who enacted the Reconstruction Amendments.

                I can definitely think of restrictions on voting that would be infringements, but this isn’t one of them.

                I still don’t like the ruling because I think the low bar it sets for disqualification is an invitation to abuse. But if, say, Trump is convicted on either the federal conspiracy charges, or the Georgia RICO charges, and one or more states keeps him off the ballot for that reason, I think that would be legitimate.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to pillsy
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                says:

                This makes the restriction involved more analogous to the still-standing and widely accepted prohibition of bigamy.

                The bigamy prohibition isn’t particularly well justified except via ‘The way we’ve always done it’ and ‘it’s confusing for the law, which assumes one spouse’, along with a side of ‘This has historically been non-consensual and even unknown to other partners and we didn’t bother to just make it require consent of all parties’ nonsense.

                A better exception is the incest prohibitions, which say ‘You specifically cannot marry, like, these specific eight people who are too closely related to you, for pretty understandable and well-defined policy reasons’.

                Likewise, people who commit insurrection against the US should not be in public office. Especially as Trump’s involved literal abuse of power…the actual amendment included people who literally just happened to be in Congress at the time and didn’t really _do_ anything except go politically where their state was going, and basically just walked out of their job. What Trump did was way worse, and way more dangerous to allow a repeat of. (Not worse than the civil war, I clarify. Just worse than the behavior of a lot of people who ended up barred from office and had basically done nothing wrong.)

                The only actual question is ‘How do we determine, legally, if someone committed insurrection’. I am not comfortable with state governments just _deciding_ that Trump did that, but I’m also pretty uncomfortable that a) Congress didn’t react with impeachment and conviction (Which, again, it can do at any time.), and b) all the criminal cases are taking so long.

                OTOH, there was actually a hearing on this.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        The fact that senate republicans refused to convict a guy who sent a mob to kill them was an act of high cowardice in service of cementing power they don’t deserve.

        Yup. There have been a ton of institutional failures that brought us to this point, and about 80% of them are the fault of Republicans being craven, partisan, or cravenly partisan.

        But Republicans wield a lot of power at the state level, and if the Supreme Court lets this ruling stand, they’ll immediately start using it to exclude Democrats from ballots, exploiting loopholes, weak points, and lacunae in state election laws that were built without any consideration that they might need to adjudicate whether a candidate is ineligible for office based on Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.

        If they rule in favor of Trump, none of that can happen.

        This isn’t a slippery slope.

        It’s a cliff, and the Colorado Supreme Court just put one foot over the abyss.Report

        • North in reply to pillsy
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          says:

          And, in addition to all of pillsy’s very pertinent points it’s also a gigantic shiny golden political gift to the GOP. They’ve wanted a way to get rid of Trump while keeping his voters since the moment Trump rode down that golden escalator. This is that holy grail they’ve been looking for.

          Frankly, Philip, I had no idea you were so profoundly fond of the libertarian plutocratic wing of the GOP.Report

          • Philip H in reply to North
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            says:

            As I note – I am more interested in two candidates from two parties whose policies present two separate visions for America. Whatever it takes to get back to that point has my support.

            And frankly I want the GOP confronted by their own failures in not tossing him sooner.Report

            • North in reply to Philip H
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              says:

              But liberal courts banning him from the ballot would have the opposite effect. In a scenario where Trump was banned from the ballot the eventual GOP nominee would bearhug Trump while loudly denouncing the decision and the liberals who handed it down. The confrontation would be greatly put off- indeed the odds are good that the decision would create a new and far more effective version of Trump.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to North
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                says:

                Is there any possible scenario which would NOT result in the GOP embracing Trump in a bearhug?

                “We can’t arrest Fat Tony- all the mobsters will be waiting for him when he gets out and embrace him as a goodfella!”

                This refrain of “We can’t enforce the law because the GOP will turn against the law” seems self-defeating.

                We have been arresting and convicting dozens of insurrection conspirators and charging many more including Trump himself.
                The GOP has embraced them all as martyrs. But we do it anyway.

                There is nothing, NOTHING the Democrats can do to change how Trumpists view Trump. Lets just use whatever tools we have to thwart their attempt to destroy our democracy.Report

              • North in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Absolutely there is. If Trump loses in ’24, either barely, solidly or decisively, he then will be slowly but concretely dragged to accountability for all his misbehavior by the steady click click clicking ratchet of the various investigations and cases against him.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to North
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                says:

                That isn’t quite what I meant.

                I was referring to the theory that IF Democrats do THIS, THEN Republicans will do THAT.

                Which is demonstrably false. The radicalism of the Republicans has never been in reaction to norm-breaking by Democrats, but simply their determination to rule regardless of the will of the people.Report

              • North in reply to Chip Daniels
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                says:

                Narrowly you are correct: there is no literal barrier to Republicans doing “That” which is eliminated by Democrats first doing “This”.

                Broadly, however, you are wrong. There is not a barrier, per say but there is a norm. The Republicans haven’t breached it so far. The CO lawsuit (if it stands) would breach that norm. It is blatantly obvious that if the Democrats breach that norm first then it would make it much easier for the GOP to breach that same norm in response. This is beyond obvious.

                Moreover, it is also beyond obvious that if the norm (of letting each party have their presidential nominees on each state ballot) were to fall and states began banning candidates from their ballots this is a tit for tat battle that, if taken to its natural conclusion, would redound to the benefit of Trumpians, Trump and the GOP in its current authoritarian adjacent state. By both states controlled and by congressional delegation counts the GOP could appoint the next president in ’24 if the contest became determined by those considerations.

                That makes breaching the norm first absolute lunacy as a practical matter while being both politically ill-advised and constitutionally wobbly.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to pillsy
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          says:

          At the same time, the Constitution says what it does and all of the Judges who have looked at this, even the ones who ruled against banning him, ruled Trump had engaged in insurrection.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter
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            says:

            all of the Judges who have looked at this, even the ones who ruled against banning him, ruled Trump had engaged in insurrection.

            A fact which no doubt warms Jack Smith’s heart.Report

          • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter
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            says:

            Yeah, that’s an important thing. The one who said it didn’t bar him did so on weird technical distinctions of what ‘officer’ meant that do not really make any sense and have no historic justification.

            And there is, of course, the argument that Pinky tries to make below, that the president doesn’t swear to ‘support the Constitution’, but only to ‘preserve, protect and defend the Constitution’.

            Neither of these are actually reasonable loopholes in any manner at all. The idea that the amendment was not intended to apply to the highest office is, but is intended to bar a state Senator who did insurrection from merely resuming his state-level office is absurd.

            Also, it’s worth pointing out: This only bars people from holding office _until the House and Senate undo it_.

            It’s probably worth thinking of this amendment as a sort of automatic impeachment and barring from office (Which requires two-third majority to bar), except that itReport

  2. Pinky
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry if I’m repeating an argument that’s been discussed before.

    Article VI includes the following:
    “The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”

    Notice: “to support”.

    Article II contains this:
    “Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:—”I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

    Notice: not “to support”

    Section 3 of the 14th Amendment is:
    “No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.”

    How can this section be held to apply to the presidency?Report

    • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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      says:

      How do you preserve, protect and defend without supporting? And how can you have an Office (as president) and not be an officer?Report

      • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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        says:

        Legal decisions often revolve around particular phrasing. If you wanted A in a contract, for example, you wouldn’t imply A, you’d say A. An amendment to a document that describes two oaths refers to one of them, we don’t assume it includes the other.

        As for the second point, I think you’re confusing dependent and independent clauses.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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          says:

          my oath as a federal civil servant talks about giving true faith and allegiance to the Constitution as I “faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.” Thus making me a federal “officer.”

          How exactly is that different then “faithfully executing the duties of the Office of President?” How is the President thus not also an officer?Report

          • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            I don’t know what point you’re making. The thing doesn’t apply to (officers…), it applies to (officers who, having…). That doesn’t include all officers.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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              says:

              You seem to be trying to find a way to allow TFG to weasel out of 14th amendment sanction for January 6th because the office of the Presidency is not explicitly mentioned AND because he doesn’t take an oath to support the Constitution the same as I do. Part of your “defense” to me above is that he isn’t an “officer” which is what I am rebuffing with the oath comparison. That aside, you can not, in any commonly understood sense of the words “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States” with out supporting it. And anyone who claims to do so without supporting it has no business anywhere near the Oval Office.

              All that aside you are working really hard to keep a guy in the race you claim to not support and who you also state you believe should not be president.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                I believe in laws not men. That’s reason enough. And again, I’m not saying that the president isn’t an officer, I’m saying that the president isn’t an officer who makes an oath to support the Constitution.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                How does one preserve, protect and defend something one doesn’t support?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                I don’t see a difference between protecting and defending something, but I have a feeling if you were to take your oath of office and refuse to say “defend”, that it’d be a problem. The law revolves around words. If you don’t use the right words, it doesn’t count. If a legal document uses one set of words for one thing and a second set for a second thing, we have to treat any further reference as if there’s a difference, right? Resident lawyers, can you confirm this?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                How do you preserve, protect and defend something you don’t support?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                I don’t see a difference between protecting and defending something, but I have the impression if you were to take your oath of office and refuse to say “defend”, that it’d be a problem. The law is particular about words. If you don’t use the right words, it doesn’t count. If a legal document uses one set of words for one thing and a second set for a second thing, we have to treat any further reference as if there’s a difference, right? OT lawyers, can you confirm this?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Pinky
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                says:

                The President’s oath say he will preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. You have quoted that oath above. Yet you, like a good many other here, say the 14th Amendment doesn’t apply to him because his oath does not contain the word support, as mine does. This argument appears to turn on the idea that one can preserve, protect and defend WITHOUT supporting. I am asking you to directly tell me how that works. I am asking to intellectually tell me how that works. I am not asking you if preserving is the same as defending. Because even if we follow your logic, you have to support the things you preserve protect and defend. Its axiomatic.

                So I am asking you to clarify why you believe that he didn’t need to support while he preserved, protected and defended, so I can understand why he isn’t an officer of the US who had a duty, per the 14th, to support.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                We’ve both made our points. I leave it to the lawyers.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                OK, one other thing. Have there really been a good number of people making the same argument here? I don’t read a lot of Trump threads, because I find him (and also those threads) boring, I don’t like him, and most importantly I think all the attention focused on him makes him stronger.

                I think the most common topics on this site are (1) whether Jaybird is being disingenuous, (2) the latest opportunity to denounce Trump, and (3) activities of local school boards, city councilmen, et cetera. When I see a gross distortion on such topics I’ll respond, but none of them are my favorite subjects.Report

              • Michael Cain in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                Semi-serious question… If both houses of Congress pass an amendment with an exit clause, and 38 state legislatures ratify it, and some state meets any required conditions and leaves, has anyone violated an oath?Report

              • Philip H in reply to Michael Cain
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                says:

                Are they intending to remain officers of the country they want to leave. Of course should they do so they’d be in a world of economic hurt unless they are California. So I don’t expect t we’d get to 38zReport

              • Michael Cain in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                I expect that they would decide to leave in groups, not individually. Not too many groups, and all of them would wind up in the top 15 or even 10 economies in the world.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Michael Cain
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                says:

                My first thought is, “legal insurrection” would be a great website name.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Pinky
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      says:

      For what it’s worth, the actual decision from the CO Supreme Court goes into considerable detail (pp. 84-88) on this very point. Their reasoning is that the commitment to “preserve, protect, and defend” meets the plain language meaning of “support”, and look to the record around the 14th Amendment’s ratification and conclude that the original intent was to include the Presidency.

      They even go a little further and argue that the President’s oath is specific oath, basically involving more specific type of support than the oath taken by other officers.

      Finally, they point out it would be illogical to have Section 3 apply to every office but the most powerful one.Report

    • PD Shaw in reply to Pinky
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      says:

      A key part of that argument that needs to be included is that the phrase “officer of the United States” is used in other places in the Constitution to refer to appointed officers in the executive branch, i.e. not the President or Vice President. The issue with the provision is not only is the President and Vice President not listed, but use of the phrase “officer of the United States” restates the intent not to include them. Here is a short summary with a table of the different categories of officers in the Constitution:

      https://conlaw.jotwell.com/constitutional-officers-a-very-close-reading/

      A few interesting points about the link. It’s written by Professor William Baude about the writings of Professor Seth Tillman in a largely approving manner. The Colorado Supreme Court decision relies heavily on an article by Baude & Paulson, while the dissent relies heavily on an article by Blackman & Tillman’s lengthy critique of the article.

      Tillman has been writing a long time about this issue, and it became a central point of discussion in whether Hilary Clinton could be disqualified from the Office of the Presidency if found guilty of recordkeeping violations pursuant to statute that forbid such a person from holding an “office under the United States.” Tillman’s point then was no, the Presidency is not an “office under the United States.”Report

      • DavidTC in reply to PD Shaw
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        says:

        I understand what Tillman thinks he’s doing, but I want to point out that there’s not a lot of evidence that anyone actually intended all those different uses of the word office and officer to mean anything different, and the way that the writers would have done that is _describe_ it.

        Instead, they used phrases that are near identical, did not bother to explain who they were talking about, and did not bother to actually argue this when creating these parts of the Constitution. There is absolutely no textual evidence to suggest that they actually meant to be saying different things, and certainly not any to show that they meant different things with the slightly different phrasing.

        Also, Hillary Clinton couldn’t be disqualified from office if found guilty of a crime that forbids a person from holding an office under the United States, because the courts have already ruled that laws cannot add additional requirements to offices that have requirements laid out in the Constitution. It’s the reason we needed a constitutional amendment for the Presidential term limit, and why States cannot add Congressional term limits. You cannot bar someone from office by law.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC
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          says:

          Oh, and it’s worth pointing out how the two examples given in that are extremely silly. The reason Washington didn’t report his gift is he was George Washington and things were brand new and he probably didn’t realize he was supposed to. Likewise, if your order to report to the Senate every person who is an officer, you don’t really need to tell the Senate who is in the Senate or House, and they hopefully also know who the president is!

          Likewise, the president is allowed to appoint all officers of the United States _that are not otherwise provided for_. Otherwise provided for, you know, like in the _first_ article of the Constitution where it explains how we get congressman.Report

  3. Jaybird
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s contagious! Maine has it now!

    Meanwhile, the Colorado Secretary of State put Trump back on the ballot.

    This is getting funny.Report

    • North in reply to Jaybird
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      says:

      Not an accurate characterization of what the CO secretary of state did if you ask me, Jay.

      “With the appeal filed, Donald Trump will be included as a candidate on Colorado’s 2024 Presidential Primary Ballot when certification occurs on January 5, 2024, unless the US Supreme Court declines to take the case or otherwise affirms the Colorado Supreme Court ruling,” Jena Griswold’s office said in a press release.

      https://nypost.com/2023/12/28/news/colorado-puts-trump-back-on-2024-republican-primary-ballot/

      I’m not laughing at the Maine decision beyond wondering if this’ll amp the pressure on the Supreme court to weigh in.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to North
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        says:

        So the default is that he’s back on unless the SCotUS acts.

        Lemme check the date… Jan 5th is Friday next. Is the SCotUS in session? Here is their calendar. Looks like they’re back in the office on the 5th.

        We’ll see if anything gets done.

        A “pocket veto” allows them to come in hung-over on Friday, not do anything, then say something about “moot” on Monday.

        Of course… they may decline to hear the case before then. But, lemme tell ya, they ain’t gonna be in the office on the 1st and I will be shocked, shocked if they’re in the office on the 2nd.

        The 3rd is the first *REAL* day that we’ll have tea leaves to read.Report

      • InMD in reply to North
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        says:

        I can think of any number of reasons they’d prefer not to. Among them being the fact that Ginni Thomas was semi-involved in the facts at issue.Report

        • Philip H in reply to InMD
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          says:

          Roberts seems to have made it extra clear he doesn’t want SCOTS involved in voting issues. He keeps writing or concurring with opinions that basically tell Congress and the states to sort it out. I suspect he will only allow this one under duress, and with Main and Colorado saying one thing and Michigan another, it gives him perfect cover to “permit” denying cert.

          And given Justice Thomas’ tin ear on all the ethics questions raised over the last year about Harlan Crowe and Leonard Leo paying for stuff, I don’t see his wife’s involvement moving much of anything.Report

          • InMD in reply to Philip H
            Ignored
            says:

            The ethics issues with Thomas are problems in themselves but this really goes beyond that. Among the many foreseeable crisis caused by Trump’s conduct is the possibility of it coming before a SCOTUS with a justice with an apparent interest in the outcome beyond anything I can think of. I mean, if this was ‘insurrection’ Thomas’ wife was a part of it.

            Contra where the conversation went on the other posts it’s possible that the least bad outcome is to let the state courts sort this out.Report

            • Philip H in reply to InMD
              Ignored
              says:

              States do get to control their election practices. Or so this Court has said more then once. We shall see.Report

            • North in reply to InMD
              Ignored
              says:

              I still think it pretty much has to end up in SCOTUS’ hands. If SCOTUS upholds the CO ruling then it’ll lend a significant veneer of credibility to the outcome and, with how the Court is stacked, will make it seem bipartisan. Plus Trump would be out nationally then.Report

              • InMD in reply to North
                Ignored
                says:

                Probably so. I am sure my priors are getting me out over my skis but something about the reaction to this is getting me steamed. A stupid game was played by Donald and now stupid prizes must be handed out. That is just life not some unfair conspiracy. It reminds me of my most incorrigible clients from my practice days.Report

              • North in reply to InMD
                Ignored
                says:

                On pure ideological merits I’m with you but I am a flesh and blood person and I see flesh and blood implications that need serious consideration.

                But, really, everything about Trump and Trumpism should get people (and especially conservatives!!!) extremely steamed on an ideological level. So it makes sense that you’d feel torked.Report

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