NY Judge Overseeing New York AG Lawsuit Finds Trump Committed Fraud

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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24 Responses

  1. Chip Daniels says:

    Expect an onslaught of Hunter Biden stories to spew from the usual sources.Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    Wouldn’t “Fraud” invoke the 14th at this point?

    Like, we’re past “presumption of innocence”, right?Report

    • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

      1. No.
      2. There is no “presumption of innocence” in a civil case.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

        He has been found in a court of law to have committed fraud.

        Isn’t that, like, indelible (excepting an appeal, I suppose)?Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to Jaybird says:

          No, this was a civil suit and it was decided on summary judgment. The Attorney General put forward a motion that presented evidence which basically stated “there is no question of material fact on these issues.” Meaning, all the evidence exchanged between the parties and available to the parties indicates that Trump and/or his organization committed fraud. There is no way for a reasonable trier of fact to look at the evidence and decide otherwise. Trump and his org had the opportunity to oppose the motion and present its own evidence that states there is a dispute of material fact that reasonable people can disagree on. The judge disagreed with whatever opposition was filed and whatever evidence Trump tried to muster was not enough.

          Or are you going to go trolling for Trump to own the libz?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            I’m hammering out exactly what happened. He was not found “Guilty” of Fraud, just “Liable” for it?

            And, like, that’s On The Record now. Barring an appeal, of course?Report

            • Jacob in reply to Jaybird says:

              He wasn’t even found liable. There was partial summary judgment on one issue, which lessens the amount that the AG needs to prove at trial. I haven’t read the full decision yet, but from the excerpts in the article this seems ripe for an appeal – summary judgment motions are supposed to be decided in the light most favorable to the non-movant, and if there’s ANY question of fact, the motion is supposed to be denied. Will update this comment after I read the decision.Report

        • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

          “Indelible” is not a legally interesting term. What part of the 14th amendment do you think addresses former Presidents who committed fraud in their private business and what should be done about it?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

            Sorry, I was thinking “Article II, Section 4”.

            “The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.”

            If he was officially found Guilty of Fraud by summary judgment, I was wondering if this would officially qualify as a conviction.

            But it’s civil and not criminal and he wasn’t even found guilty, just liable and it needs to follow impeachment rather than merely a court of regular old law anyway.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

              That section authorizes: (1) removal of a President who has been (2) impeached and (3) convicted of (4) treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. It has nothing to say about the eligibility of a candidate who has committed civil frauds in his non-presidential life.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to CJColucci says:

                Apparently we needed the Sainted Founders to spell out what High Crimes and Misdemeanors are for their time and for the entire future of the US.

                Being fouind liable for massive fraud and also sexual assault should be enough too trigger the HC and M thing but not for some.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                You stupid layman! Only a pro-Trump troll would conclude something like that!Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

                Ahhh…..urm….????Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                You’ve opened up a real can of worms here. Nobody knows the answer to this question, and views run from Gerald Ford’s view that an impeachable offense is whatever Congress says it is to it has to be a specific (and serious) crime.
                Here’s a fun thought. Eugene Debs pulled nearly a million votes while sitting in a prison cell after having been convicted under the Espionage Act of 1917. Suppose he had pulled enough to win. Would he have been ineligible to serve as President? Could he have been impeached and removed soon after taking office?Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to CJColucci says:

                The problem is we have to figure out the answer w/o help from the decayed corpses of the founders. How can we figure something out w/o the words of guys who have been dead for a couple hundred years.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                There are people who think they can do this and — the gods preserve us — think they have actual working theories of how. Give me an unpretentious hack who knows what he doesn’t know any day.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                Just wait until we get into the “shall be” vs. “will be” legal arguments….Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Marchmaine says:

                Oh i’m ready and preped to run screaming from that discussion.Report

  3. Marchmaine says:

    Who was defrauded?

    “More importantly, the Court disregarded the viewpoint of those actually involved in the loan transactions who testified that there was nothing misleading, there was no fraud, and the transactions were all highly profitable.”

    Did the insurance companies sue? It’s implied that he got better rates… I believe it. What’s the math on the better rates as paying less per unit on more units is usually a wash or worse (e.g. you pay $0.08 on $100, but $0.06 on $200) — unless you actually cash in on inflated values — which would then have a victim and a crime. Was there such an event?

    Reminds me of the various accounting fictions that our entire economy is based on… like colleges (from a recent report from AEI):

    “The gap between notional and real revenues has made a mess of college tax filings, too. To use the Beloit example, the college reports its revenues as though every student pays full tuition. In 2019, Beloit reported about $75 million in total revenue on its IRS Form 990, even though $35 million of that money was never asked for and never paid. To fill the gap between fantasy and reality, Beloit’s Form 990 reports “Grants and similar amounts paid: [$]35,469,256.” To be clear, Beloit never had $75 million in revenue; that number is an accounting fiction derived from the school’s published tuition, which is based on nothing whatsoever. Beloit also did not “pay” $35 million in grants and similar amounts: It simply marked down a price that was never real.”

    Me: To be clear, loans or grants that students received to pay the remainder *are* the income the college received. The ‘Markdown’ is funded with internal ‘grants’ that are entirely ‘fiat’ in that they are created as they are created and constitute a discount, not a transfer of internal funds. This happens at every college I know S/M/L. It has a lot of distortionary effects, and probably should be ‘illegal’.

    I’m perfectly willing to believe that lying and fraud are endemic to Trump and the entire program of NYC land development; is this Case #1 of cleaning up all the fraud in NYC? I hope so. But I suspect not.

    My position, to avoid misconstruelization, is that I’m sure this sort of ‘fraud’ occurred… but I’m genuinely confused as to whether we think it is unique to Trump and if it’s not — and there’s no entity that loaned Trump money or insured his assets that’s bringing the case (is there?) — then how is this not basically an indictment of BAU in NYC and who’s next in the clean-up?Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Marchmaine says:

      You can’t judge the entire business community for the actions of a few sick and perverted individuals.

      For if you do, shouldn’t we blame the entire capitalist system?
      And if you blame the entire capitalist system, isn’t this an indictment of the entire American way of life?

      I put it to you,- Isn’t this an indictment of our entire American society?
      Well, you can do what you want- but I’m not going to sit here and listen to you bad-mouth the United States of America!

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROxvT8KKdFwReport

  4. Michael Cain says:

    I’m actually more fascinated by the whole receivership/liquidation thing. The conventional wisdom when Trump won in 2016 was that putting his business into a blind trust was at least impractical because of the interlocking LLC structure and the number of places where what he brought was his name and personal recognition. Also that unwinding it cleanly and obtaining the maximum value for the illiquid assets might take a decade.Report

  5. CJColucci says:

    The appeals court slapped down Trump’s proceeding against Justice Engoron:

    https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-letitia-james-fraud-trial-new-york-d8934da24e78ca0cedab7303efdf48bdReport