YIMBYs, NIMBYs, and Freddies

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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47 Responses

  1. North says:

    I partially disagree with Freddie here. NIMBY is a choice and also structure. Freddie has a lot of denunciations for online YIMBY movements but, of course, online YIMBY’s, just like online anything, are not representative of the masses.

    While I am trying to remain open to Freddie’s point I think he lets his social media focus color his scorn along with his very obvious discomfort with the fact that the more libertarian themes are probably more right than wrong and housing shortages are overwhelmingly due to problematic state controls on construction in local markets. We’ve seen this again and again. Even when attempts are made towards left wing housing solutions such as public construction of housing, that money runs afoul of the same NIMBY barriers to development and end up producing a laughably small number of housing units at insane per unit costs.

    A personal anecdote: I recently had the “fortune” to put my YIMBY principles to the test. My husband and I had the fortune to purchase a single family home in Minneapolis within the city itself. The neighborhood is about 75% multifamily dwellings but there’re pockets of older single-family houses scattered throughout it. This year I was notified that the owners of a small single family bungalow that neighbors our home to the south were planning on redeveloping the lot into a 3 story tall apartment building with ten one bedroom apartment units. I have always been ra-ra development and I remain so but I absolutely could feel the NIMBY horror crawling down my spine. Less light from the south*, more street parking, what would it do to the value of our house etc etc etc. I was tested and I passed. I attended the community input stage of the planning and voiced support for the development and now there’s a pit to the south of my house (the builders are nice- they even paid us 200 bucks to use our hose, wtf?). Now Minneapolis (thankfully) has instituted a housing plan that encourages a lot more development so I suspect that a “South” version of me going full raging NIMBY wouldn’t have been able to stop it but I’m sure he could have gummed things up.

    The point is, NIMBY is absolutely a choice. I know objectively, first hand, that it’s a choice. Now perhaps Freddie means something along the lines of “housing as private property is a structural choice not an individual choice” and I wouldn’t be shocked to hear such lunacy from him- he’s always been a dear genuine commie (said with utmost affection).

    And, slightly off topic, it gratifies me enormously that Freddie has done so well by Substack. His writing has always been fire. And I had been fishin worried as hell about him for quite a while there.

    *In Minnesota obstructions to the south of you are a big deal because the sun rises in the southeast and sets in the southwest in winter.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

      Freddie’s scorn for YIMBYs is because he thinks that they are all bougie, normie winemoms and he wants a romantic Bohemia. He resents them for being the more successful people from college.Report

    • Chris in reply to North says:

      Yeah, recognizing that NIMBYism is a structural phenomenon is a good thing, but it requires you to also recognize YIMBYism as one (resulting from, e.g., the same upward pressures on housing costs that push homeowners into NIMBYISM).

      Also, the fact that they are both structural issues doesn’t excuse the bad behavior of either group or make the choices of NIMBYs less bad.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

        But if it is a structural issue, it does make the answers to the question “So how do we deal with this?” different than if it is an interpersonal one.

        Shaming, for example, would fail to work if it were structural.Report

        • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

          Yes, it produces both normative (we should approach this from a structural level) and practical (we won’t fix it if we don’t approach this from a structural level) reasons to focus on the structural. This doesn’t mean, though, that people get a pass for truly bad behavior (basically, anything that happens on Nextdoor). It just means people are going to keep behaving badly until we fix the structural part.

          By the way, leftists have been saying this for a while. E.g.,

          “To this should be added: ethics today means not being at home in one’s house. This illustrates something of the difficult relationship which individual persons have vis-à-vis their property, so long as they still own anything at all. The trick consists of certifying and expressing the fact that private property no longer belongs to one person, in the sense that the abundance of consumer goods has become potentially so great, that no individual [Individuum] has the right to cling to the principle of their restriction; that nevertheless one must have property, if one does not wish to land in that dependence and privation, which perpetuates the blind continuation of the relations of ownership. But the thesis of this paradox leads to destruction, a loveless lack of attention for things, which necessarily turns against human beings too; and the antithesis is already, the moment one expresses it, an ideology for those who want to keep what is theirs with a bad conscience. There is no right life in the wrong one.”Report

          • InMD in reply to Chris says:

            That last paragraph sounds like the kind of thing written by a guy fully at home in his rich parents’ basement and an allowance from his mommy well into his 40s.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

              It’s only a small trust fund. Just $1200 a month. Barely enough to cover half my rent.Report

            • Chris in reply to InMD says:

              The guy who wrote it was raised in an upper middle class household, the son of a wine exporter, in Frankfurt in the first decades of the last century. He definitely never experience material deprivation, though his father was Jewish, so he was forced to flee Austria (where he moved after the war) for the US (ultimately, Los Angeles) in the 30s.

              The idea is that when homes become commodities, and in fact commodities the value of which can have a great deal of impact on one’s material conditions, they cease to be homes in the ways that they had once been, and I think you see this in NIMBYism, and the behavior of NIMBYs, which is often results in reducing their quality of life (by preventing increases in walkability, e.g.) in order to maintain or increase their home values. I don’t think you have to have been raised wealthy to see this.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris says:

                I think it really depends on who you ask. Covid and the inventory problem has certainly created a lot of new landlords trying to treat homes as pure assets. My guess is that few of them will still be doing it in 5 years when the realities of how crappy a deal being a landlord is starts to set in. Even then I still believe your average homeowner looks at and is using their property as a shelter/home first, with the asset (and risk related to the asset) as secondary.Report

              • Chris in reply to InMD says:

                He’s not saying people don’t live in the houses; he’s talking about people’s relationships with the houses in which they live. Think of it as a form of alienation in the sense that Western Marxists use the term.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris says:

                Nah I understood that, I’m just saying I doubt its truth for the vast majority of homeowners in the US. Maybe I am projecting but I think people are pretty sentimental about where they live, even if they’d sell it if it became beneficial for them to do so.Report

            • Brandon Berg in reply to InMD says:

              Well, yes, that was clearly implied by “leftists.”Report

          • Saul Degraw in reply to Chris says:

            The problem is that a lot of PHIMBYs often end up letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and I can’t tell how much of this is because they just don’t really want to build anything or they have a luxury not too.

            I am not a fan of SF’s current mayor for various reasons. I think she is a self-promoter. I don’t like how she went all against a perfectly sensible plan to make city elections coincide with the Presidential elections because it made her renomination efforts a bit harder. I don’t like how she argues that “compassion is killing people” when it comes to drug use and homelessness.

            But until fairly recently, her only competitor was a NIMBY/PHIMBY of absolute astonishment. From Ahsha Safai’s wikipedia page:

            “He worked with Dean Preston and Aaron Peskin to delay the construction of thousands of units in the Hub so that TODCO, a low-income housing non-profit in San Francisco, could perform a race and equity study on the project within six months.[7] More than two years later, TODCO had not begun the study and the group said it had no intent to do so.[8]

            In 2021, Safaí said he would oppose the building of modular housing for the homeless in San Francisco unless it used labor from San Francisco; a Vallejo company had up until then provided modular housing complexes faster and cheaper than other companies could.[9]

            In 2021, Safaí supported a proposal by Mayor London Breed to streamline housing production in San Francisco.[10]”

            The first two paragraphs are extremely infuriating and make the last paragraph basically a lie. Why does it matter if modular housing needs to uses labor from San Francisco? The kind of labor used to build modular housing can’t afford to live in San Francisco because of our decades long backlog in building enough housing. TODOCO is basically a non profit turned slumlord that pays its executives lavishly and is taking advantage of a political process to kill of anything that threatens its power and self-perceived nobility and “anti-establishment fight the man” stuff. It is a sneer and infuriating.

            There is also Supervisor Dean Preston whose district has a former carwash that has been abandoned for seven years because NIMBY/PHIMBYs do not want a high rise there. It was a bloody carwash, not anything attractive or historical. Dean Preston is probably worth north of 150 million dollars and lives in a beautiful Alamo Square manse. He fancies himself to be a hero of public housing but sneers at middle class or even upper-middle class people who could have really benefited from more housing being built on the site of a former carwash. A carwash.

            Vienna style public housing is not going to happen in the United States and letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is very infuriating and self-owning.Report

        • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

          To me you really have to come up with state level compromises that don’t totally screw the people that bought in under the existing system. I’m absolutely a YIMBY, generally pro development person. The double whammy pickle that I find most YIMBY’s don’t necessarily grapple with is not just what change can do to home values, but the way home values themselves are intertwined with school systems. I mentioned in the comments at Freddie’s that last time we were house hunting we looked at a place on the street that serves as the line between the ‘good’ high schools and the ‘not so good’ high schools. That line alone was enough to put a $200k addition of value on the ‘good’ high school side of the street. Point being when a person or family buys on that side they have hedged against 2 of the 3 major cost disease issues for the middle class, housing and education. Talk about your major incentive to always be permanently against anything changing ever.*

          Now I understand it’s easy to paint people in that situation as FYIGM villains, but as Freddie says, it really has a major structural component, and if you blow it up you are potentially destroying a major, major investment normal people have sacrificed to make.

          None if this is to say that YIMBYism isn’t more right than wrong on the merits. But what it does mean is that doing the politics requires finding a way to create win wins that include natural NIMBY constituencies. Or you can just whine about how bad and evil they are.

          *For the record we bought in another neighborhood well within the ‘not so good’ side of the line, and while I find the entire situation ridiculous, I can appreciate where NIMBYs are coming from. I would find it pretty tough to resist becoming one had we purchased that house.Report

          • Saul Degraw in reply to InMD says:

            “To me you really have to come up with state level compromises that don’t totally screw the people that bought in under the existing system.”

            Somethings might just be impossible. There are always trade-offs and downsides.Report

            • InMD in reply to Saul Degraw says:

              I’m not sure it’s politically possible as a project then, not when 65% of people in the country are homeowners. I know the vision is that it’s really only whacking people with a huge margin that can take the hit, but to me that sounds like the belief that we could finance a European style welfare state on the backs of the 1% alone. My suspicion is the reality of something really drastic looks more like what happened with mortgages during the financial crisis. So not so much a trade off as the votes will literally never be there to self inflict anything too painful. Not without some kind of a bargain the losers can live with anyway.Report

          • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

            Right… you’d basically build a “stop-loss” program based upon an agreed-upon 3rd party metric for property valuation.

            We do this already with various property taxes… the key would be funding and re-insuring the “stop-loss” program with YIMBY developers and backstopped by the State/Fed govts. Depends I guess on what level we’re managing the stop-loss program. Hyper Local or the entire US.

            Of course, like Home Hazard insurance the Stop-Loss program would have to be at replacement value (i.e. appreciated max value) not at cost.

            There’s plenty to work with if we’re willing to tax the growth and redistribute to the losers. If the development is all good according to YIMBY dreams and property values all rise, then the tax generates revenues. If it all goes to shit as NIMBYs doomcast, then towns/counties go bankrupt and property owners are made whole as they relocate to ‘replacement’ level locations. Smart Development is encouraged while risks are reduced.

            Everybody gets what they want.Report

            • InMD in reply to Marchmaine says:

              I agree with that and think that kind of backstop along with certain other temporary lock ins on sensitive issues (school districts for example) get the job done. But IMO this is where the YIMBY side tends to fall short. Not only does it not really account for failure, it doesn’t account for success.Report

              • North in reply to InMD says:

                To be fair, YIMBY is only a dewy eyed baby in terms of ages of political movements.Report

              • InMD in reply to North says:

                Oh yea, and I mean I want it to win. Take what I’m throwing out here as an attempt at being constructive, not opposition. I’m in an inner ring suburb and want to build everywhere, attract more people and investment. The opposition in my county has to be the most cynical sh*t I’ve ever heard.Report

            • North in reply to Marchmaine says:

              For sure I’d support that, especially since the actual numerical value of dollar losses you could expect individuals to face from developments would be quite low.

              But, similarly, I fear you’d find that NIMBY objections would likely not be mollified by such a program since the root of their animus against development lies in less tangible complaints like “Parking”, “traffic” and the evergreen “neighborhood character”.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to North says:

                The ‘compromise’ is that you take away the veto’s in exchange for backing-up people’s exit strategies.

                If the neighborhood becomes less desireable to you (for whatever reason) and you can exit without loss; or, hey, maybe less desirable is more desirable for someone else so you exit with some extra jingle in your pocket.

                The aesthetic arguments are mostly indirect arguments against fear of financial loss.

                Sidenote… I’m always a little baffled by the Yglesias war on parking; but hey, if you can YIMBY your way into insufficient parking and value goes up? Then let the town/county/state gamble that they aren’t f*cking things up.Report

              • North in reply to Marchmaine says:

                Absolutely, and perhaps that’s what enough NIMBY’s want but I suspect/fear it isn’t.Report

              • Marchmaine in reply to North says:

                I think the appropriate strategy is for the YIMBY’s to lead with the acknowledgement that the ‘risk’ associated with change is real and Team YIMBY will incorporate protections into their plans.

                Else, as InMD points out, status quo has a much bigger constituency… they don’t have to offer anything to win.Report

              • North in reply to Marchmaine says:

                For sure, I’m all for it. Thankfully the internet YIMBY’s are not representative of the politician YIMBY”sReport

          • North in reply to InMD says:

            Not intending to pick on you specifically but using this framing is, in of itself, a capitulation to NIMBY framing. The reality is that the majority of NIMBY home owners would be financially helped, not harmed, if they lost their policy battle against development.

            Let’s start off by carving off the genuinely wealthy NIMBY’s who own assets well beyond just their home. They’re NIMBY’s because they’ve got theirs and they want their neighborhoods to remain as is. Everything else they say is just camouflage for that sentiment and the only rational response to that truth is to just shrug. They’re the literal bootleggers of the Baptist/bootlegger NIMBY coalition. They’re unpersuadable and they’re a significant minority. Fish em.

            If you take the NIMBY’s that you have left, the ones for whom their home is their only major asset, from that the number who would be genuinely financially damaged by development in their neighborhood is vanishingly small. Yes, NIMBY’s have their favorite horror stories they like to highlight but the reality is that making neighborhoods denser generally makes the land more valuable, not less. They are understandably averse to change because they’re often older and, frankly, old people don’t like change, but the reality is densifying their neighborhoods would be good for the vast majority of them; not bad.

            And, of course, there’s no small contingent of NIMBY’s who would be flat out, unambiguously, helped by widespread development. All the “anti-gentrifiers” and any of them who rent, for instance. They are being fooled by ideology of by the wealthy “bootlegger” NIMBY’s into voting directly contrary to their interests.

            I put up a Josh Barro link below and he touches on all this a bit. YIMBY movements are making some decent inroads in places and they have the significant advantage of being right on the substantive merits. A talented politician can square this circle by focusing their messaging on positive, but anti-NIMBY themes and actually do very well. NIMBY’s greatest power is simply their disparity of passion in local, low involvement, elections where the zoning decisions get made. I do agree with Saul, moving zoning decisions up a few rungs may be a good idea.Report

            • InMD in reply to North says:

              I don’t see it as a capitulation to NIMBY framing at all, just dealing with the interests and perspectives in play. I understand the theory that this all nets out positive sum for the NIMBY faction long term (a theory, again, I think is basically right) but we’re only talking about the most powerful, influential local interests in the vast majority of the country. It’s folly to think the kind of major reforms necessary are going to be enacted by reciting the policy theory at a bunch of people, who again, make up the most motivated voters everywhere this matters, and assuring them that it will totally work out for them in the end. Price of admission to even having the conversation with the necessary voters is to have an answer for ‘but what if it doesn’t?’ I’d also reiterate that 65% of the country owns its own home, and I don’t think it’s helpful to look at this as a 99% against the 1% (or similar) framing.

              Now I don’t think it’s some impossible conversation to have but I do think you need some sort of phase in and risk sharing schemes like what March mentions. I think there really are a lot of people who would be willing to get out of the vicious cycle provided they have a safety net.

              Barro I do like, but I also think you have to take him with a grain of salt on this topic. I believe he is writing from SF where as I understand it the level of crisis is so acute it can’t be ignored. Maybe we’re also knocking on the door of something like that in NYC but I think we’re a pretty long way from it anywhere else, and certainly pretty far from the kind of counter constituency necessary to win big nationwide.Report

              • North in reply to InMD says:

                I do think accepting that pro-development policies are zero sum, with NIMBY’s on one, potentially losing, side is very much accepting NIMBY framing and helping NIMBY’s keep their coalition together.

                Well yeah, plus Cali has horrific distortions from the way voter initiatives have borked up their taxation regime- Proposition 13 chief and worst of all of them.

                I agree you maybe can’t build a national constituency around YIMBY but I am dubious that a solution to housing lies at the national/federal level. Housing regulations are set at the municipal/city level and those entities derive their authority from their state constitutions (via their state government) so it seems to me that housing policy can most plausibly be tackled at a state level. That gets it up away from the parochial interests of the nakedly unpersuadable NIMBY’s and lets the politicians talk in sweeping positive terms that can disarm the lower temperature/irrational NIMBY’s (who are, let’s be clear, the majority of NIMBY’s).Report

              • InMD in reply to North says:

                Well, we’re in agreement on the most likely avenue of success being at the state level. Even there though I think to win the YIMBY side really needs a ‘courage if its convictions’ component that does something for those on the losing end, at least beyond a certain point. And hey, if really is win win then that fund or insurance or whatever won’t have to pay out and over time becomes a public windfall.

                I know where this is really bad in SF (or at least as I understand it) you in fact have lots of people refusing to budge that bought properties cheap a long time ago. However I don’t think that’s really the norm in most places, and after 20 years of runaway growth in housing prices you’ve got lots and lots of people who from their perspective did ‘the right thing’ and bought in quite high because there was no other choice.Report

              • North in reply to InMD says:

                For sure and I support such amelioration schemes because I think that their actual cost would be pretty small. But I also, cynically, think that NIMBY opposition can’t be bought off with such offers because it’s fundamentally non-financial and irrational. The most passionate NIMBY’s simply don’t want their neighborhoods to change, don’t want more people around them and don’t want to say either of those things and thus cloak their venal desires in camouflaged language.Report

              • InMD in reply to North says:

                From my perspective it’s all local in terms of the dynamics. That contingency definitely exists in the DC area, but at least in my little corner it’s aligned with some of the more misguided social justice activist groups that nevertheless are very influential in the Democrat primary process, which for all intents and purposes is the election. So the face of NIMBYism pushes a lot of progressive buttons* even as the people who benefit most are the wealthiest, most entrenched people. It isn’t an easy nut to crack.

                *To be fair it isn’t like those groups are totally without any valid points, some vulnerable people are among those that would lose out, but instead of looking for some kind of workable accomodation it’s a total derail.Report

              • North in reply to InMD says:

                Yes, agreed. I think the baptists can be bought off of ameliorated from that coalition but I suspect the bootleggers cannot.Report

  2. Eric Medlin says:

    The issue to me with this is the people who are NIMBYs and call for extreme personal sacrifice on the part of other people but not for themselves. If you want generational, society-wide sacrifice, the best place to start is with your house and your property values (which may go up anyway depending on where you live). Once you’re fine with that, I think in some places you’ll see an expansion of housing to fill up what is needed and in others that expansion won’t be enough, then the conversations over social housing can begin anew. Zoning reform is the first step.Report

  3. Saul Degraw says:

    Why am I not surprised that Freedie is NIMBY? It is completely on brand with him probably thinking YIMBYs are nothing but corporate Democrat cringe winemoms.

    The big cover that NIMBYism seems to have is that it is a baptist and bootlegger coalition and the reasons or “reasons” for justifying NIMBYism or PHIMBYism are endless. As far as I can tell the NIMBY/PHIMBY factions fall into a few camps:

    1. You have your classic NIMBYs that just want to protect their housing costs and the way their very expensive and pretty neighorhood looks. These can be people in a fancy inner-ring suburb or McMansion exurbs or people who live in multi-million dollar lofts or houses in SOHO, Brooklyn Heights, Noe Valley, the Pearl District, etc.

    2. You have the people who want to protect “bohemia” at all costs crowd. The most famous example of this is Jeremiah’s Vanishing New York. This crowd has a romanticized view of American cities in the 1970s and 80s. Yeah, the cities were bankrupt and had tons of problems but the housing was cheap and the downtowns were alive with bold and exciting culture. The Ramones, CBGBs, Basquiat, Keith Harring, the Mudd Clubb!! This crowd thinks that cities are for the misfits of American society and the normies need to stick to the suburbs.

    2a. This crowd also gets angry to the point of irrationality. I have seen more than one person try to argue that maybe the high prices in SF will cause all the techies to move away and SF can be a bohemian wonderland again. I don’t think people realize how stupid this statement is. Why would the people with six-figure salaries or more leave before the people with much less money?

    3. A close cousin to number 2 is the PHIMBY types who just seethe that developers (who they imagine as villains from children’s movies) will need to be part of the solution to the housing crisis.

    I own a condo. It is the most expensive thing I have purchased so far. I am still a YIMBY.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      2a. The usual belief is that you things socially unpleasant with things like a lot of visible disorder and even crime in order to get the people with six figure salaries or above to leave first. The people without money will stay because they can’t afford to leave.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      He’s not a NIMBY? He just doesn’t automatically leap to “my opponents are the way that they are because they are bad” but, instead, says “huh, they’re being rational… selfish, but rational”.

      I mean here:

      Right now, we do need zoning reform; we need to end parking minimums and height caps, to sensibly reform historic district zoning and environmental reviews, and to enact a bunch of other potential beneficial changes. I don’t understand why that perspective is so often treated as antagonistic to the call for social housing that’s built at taxpayer expense, governed by the state, and distributed on the basis of need rather than through the market mechanism.

      That’s *NOT* NIMBY.Report

  4. LeeEsq says:

    Nearly every NIMBY article reads like Irish Protestants fighting off Irish Homerule. “The NIMBYs will fight and the NIMBYs will be right.” YIMBYs are never going to make the NIMBYs change. They must be overpowered politically. This will have to be done at the state house level because the NIMBYs generally have an iron grip on municipal politics.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq says:

      His essay reads more like the People’s Front of Judea bitterly denouncing the Judean People’s Front.

      “Yes, the YIMBY’s are right and yes, we need all sorts of reform, but I still hate those YIMBY’s because they pursue the policies I favor, in the wrong way!”

      ETA:
      . I would love to do a lot of building in desirable places that would upset a lot of NIMBYs. But I would do so sympathetically because I would understand that NIMBYs are only responding rationally to a system they didn’t create under the economic conditions we’ve already discussed.

      He would…”build sympathetically”??

      How does one go about that? He really concedes all the arguments to YIMBYs but insists that somehow they are doing it wrong, whereas he would do the same thing, just with added sympathy.Report

  5. Jaybird says:

    You don’t get to have your house be a great investment at the same time that housing is cheap.

    Pick one of those. If you want housing to be cheap, well… you won’t be able to sell your house for much. If you want housing to be a great investment, well, you’re going to find that it’s going to be tough to buy a house for a lot of people once the whole “great investment” thing makes itself common knowledge.

    Ooooh. Make housing cheap and then, after you get *YOUR* house, make it a great investment.Report