17 thoughts on “Transgender Treatments and Parental Rights

  1. Very well put. There’s a lot of “unknown” here.

    IMHO it’s reasonably clear male->female trans athletes keep enough of the “male” package that they should probably be banned. That’s harsh but we ban athletes for less and I don’t see good alternatives.

    For perspective, I’m 6’8″. I’m also not big for a male in my family. If I go trans I’m not going to shrink.Report

  2. We should probably start the discussion by recognizing some basic facts.
    The number of sex reassignment surgeries on minors is tiny. Like fewer than 300 teens 13-17 received breast surgery in the US.
    The number who get bottom surgery, is even fewer, like maybe around 60.

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/

    Keep both those numbers in mind. Three hundred, and fifty.

    Now the number of teens 13-19 who got nose jobs- PERMANENT IRREVERSIBLE surgical alteration of their face- was on the order of 30,000.

    Thirty Thousand!

    The number of teenagers getting permanent irreversible life altering facial surgery is ONE HUNDRED times larger than the ones getting top surgery.

    And no one cares.Report

    1. There’s also a pretty decent percentage of those top surgeries going to teens who have them for other reasons. I know a woman who had breast surgery in her teens because she’d developed early and top-heavily and wanted to spare her back pain.Report

  3. The problem is that a trans teen probably will find themselves developing in ways that cause them severe distress. Puberty-blockers are thus sometimes justified because the distress will only persist and grow stronger for lots of teens. Alleviating the distress can outweigh the potential risks of such treatments. The side effects of puberty blockers are not so severe that we should simply ban their use. At most we might need to be more careful about how long they can be used, but a) minors can be capacitous (see Gillick competence) for some things and b) this has to be carried out on a case by case basis. There is no need for a blanket ban on puberty-blockers

    Puberty blockers are not specifically approved by the FDA for treatment of gender dysphoria in children. But this does not mean that they are not FDA approved simpliciter. They are approved for use with children who for some reason or other start puberty too early. Using it for transgendered teens is just off-label usage which is common for lots of things and is not a weird thing that’s going on.

    Conservatives have drummed up a moral panic about this. There are some physicians who have engaged in malpractice by progressing care too quickly without taking care to confirm that the child/teen is indeed transgendered. But this is against existing guidelines.

    Actual rates of post-op regret are very low. 1% or less.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

    This number is significantly lower than regret for vasectomies, knee replacements etc. This is to be expected since physicians are usually and justifiably very careful since this is a huge decision.

    Now we get to parental rights. Parental rights here are more limited than you might think. Jehovah’s Witness parents, for instance, do not have the right (legally or morally) to refuse blood transfusions for their children. Medical best interest rules the day in such cases. The same thing applies here. If it is in the medical best interest for a teen to transition, then parents do not have a right to stop it.

    I don’t think gay conversion therapy is just people talking about people straight. I don’t think anyone talking at me will get me to be gay. I don’t see how one could talk a gay person straight. If that is all that is going on here, then these therapies seem fraudulent. If it is not just talk, then the question becomes whether what is happening has veered into abuse.

    1st amendment or more generally, freedom of conscience concerns permit people to believe whatever they want about the morality of being gay or trans. But transitioning and gay conversion therapy are significantly different in at least 1 important respect.

    Gay teens typically don’t want to be in conversion therapy while trans teens typically want to medically transition. Regardless of assessments of competence, we should be much more careful about conversion therapy because it violates their assent (and potentially their consent as well). Thus the former may all things considered not be in gay teen’s best interests while the the balance of probability favours the latter being in trans teens best interests.Report

    1. A Trans Teen? Excuuuuse me. An Autistic Teen will find themselves developing in ways that cause them distress. CHANGE causes them distress.

      And there are a LOT MORE autistic teens than trans teens. (over ten times.).

      Now, if you tell an autistic teen that all he/she has to do is “trick” the psychologist (and, it might not be that much of a con…).

      Rates of post-op regret are significantly understated due to the 50% yearly suicidal ideation of trans teens and adults. In short: if they regret removing the ability to have orgasms, they tend to kill themselves.Report

      1. Here is the difference between being autistic and being trans. Once the body stops changing, the autistic person stops feeling distressed. For the trans person, finishing their natural puberty maximises the distress. The autistic teen is distressed by change in any direction. The trans teen is not distressed by the changing as such, but by it becoming something that they do not want it to be. It can make sense why different courses of treatment might be recommended here.

        Now, if you tell an autistic teen that all he/she has to do is “trick” the psychologist (and, it might not be that much of a con…)

        So wait some autistic persons may also be trans? So what?

        Rates of post-op regret are significantly understated due to the 50% yearly suicidal ideation of trans teens and adults. In short: if they regret removing the ability to have orgasms, they tend to kill themselves.

        Suicidal ideation is not actual suicide.

        And gender affirming care improves mental health.
        https://abcnews.go.com/Health/gender-affirming-care-trans-youth-improves-mental-health/story?id=96510337#:~:text=Interest%20Successfully%20Added-,Gender%2Daffirming%20care%20for%20trans%20youth%20improves%20mental%20health%3A%20Study,trans%20youth%2C%20the%20report%20said.&text=Gender%2Daffirming%20hormone%20therapy%20improves,England%20Journal%20of%20Medicine%20showed.Report

        1. The 20,000 trans folk study had only 16% of them wanting to obtain hormones. As such, I think we’re in the majority when we say “puberty blocking hormones are a bad idea for most trans folk.”Report

          1. That’s not how clinical care works.

            those who want hormones get it and those who don’t don’t. Those who don’t want hormones don’t get to decide for those who do even if the former are in the majority.Report

    2. The link is to a meta-analysis that incorporates studies crossing multiple decades (several are in the 80s and 90s) and countries. The rapidly increasing acceptance and visibility over the last few years especially in the US would naturally be expected to affect the rate of post-op regret. It would be good to have a sense of what the “current” rate is (over, say, the last 5 years). Though in the current climate, it’s hard to trust any particular study anyway — I’d expect there to be a thumb on the scale somewhere.Report

      1. To add to your point no one knows the long term impact of a number of these treatments on children, and I certainly wouldn’t compare it to something where the cost benefit analysis is obvious, as Murali did to an emergency blood transfusion. My father in law was on Lupron for years for prostate cancer. It, along with the cocktail of drugs and treatment he was on, extended his life for about 15 years, but the quality declined over time. The Lupron in particular caused severe osteoporosis and by the end movement was painful and the guy was made of glass. His technical proximate cause of death wasn’t the cancer but a minor fall inside his own home that due to the state of his bones fractured his skull and resulted in massive brain hemorrhaging.

        My mind isn’t closed to the possibility of situations where it makes sense but we’re talking really difficult trade offs with potentially major impacts on health over the individual’s life.Report

        1. As we know more things might change, but, and this is crucial, it is, given our current evidence, the best of many bad options for a not insignificant number of cases.

          There is some moral risk here, but it is wrong (because authoritarian) for us to demand that others be cautious when things only at risk of being wrong (but not certainly wrong). For a discussion of why this might be the case, let me toot my own horn here.

          https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10677-022-10360-2

          For an ungated penultimate draft, click the title in this link below

          https://philarchive.org/rec/MURIRBReport

        1. Thanks, that’s helpful. I think it’s specifically minors who are the population of concern, but it’s good to see both such a small regret rate and also (based on the intro) evidence of people in the profession taking the concern very seriously. Unfortunately a lot of the online discussion of these issues is dominated by zealots who are quick to dismiss every potential concern that cuts against their own opinion (and vilify people for even mentioning them).Report

          1. Studies can’t be both long-term and following the recent glut of cases, because the new cases haven’t been been around long-term.Report

            1. I suppose for those of us who are concerned about regret among minors due to faddism or excessive zeal, it’s a fair question to ask what post-op timeframe we would expect the regret to show up.Report

Comments are closed.