Meetings, And The Pure, Clean, Unbridled Hatred Thereof

Andrew Donaldson

Born and raised in West Virginia, Andrew has been the Managing Editor of Ordinary Times since 2018, is a widely published opinion writer, and appears in media, radio, and occasionally as a talking head on TV. He can usually be found misspelling/misusing words on Twitter@four4thefire. Andrew is the host of Heard Tell podcast. Subscribe to Andrew'sHeard Tell Substack for free here:

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35 Responses

  1. Damon says:

    Let me tell you, in the non tech world, it’s not necessarily that way. My dept is understaffed and undertrained. There’s lots of good people in my company, except for the tendency to have mass meetings “celebrating” stuff–which seems to come from HR. If I attended every meeting invite they sent out, I’d have 40% less working time. I get meeting invites for that stuff almost every other day for this stuff.Report

    • Reformed Republican in reply to Damon says:

      I also thought the idea of unchecked hiring to be strange. Maybe it is because I have always worked in smaller, private companies, but managers were not able to add headcount willy nilly. They needed approval from somebody at the VP level at least.Report

  2. Philip H says:

    I long ago adopted the motto “never let a meeting get in the way of a great email.”

    Government is ripe with this stuff, especially as we “reintegrate” post-pandemic. I am lucky enough to have a remote duty station from my “office” so most of may participation is via video. Still we have more meetings then I need much less want. Problem of being an introvert in an extrovert world.Report

    • John Puccio in reply to Philip H says:

      A great meeting is superior to a great email. No substitute for a meaningful discussion where questions can be answered in real time and much more quickly.

      You’re also assuming people are going to read your email.Report

      • Pinky in reply to John Puccio says:

        A great meeting has a point. It’s easier to get away with a pointless meeting than a pointless email.Report

        • John Puccio in reply to Pinky says:

          I think the problem is pointless communication. When your inbox is littered with 200 emails a day only 7 are actually worth reading, that’s a problem. When you have an email exchange with someone that takes an hour when a simple phone call would have taken 10 minutes, that’s a problem.

          People abuse emails as much as they abuse meeting, imo.Report

          • InMD in reply to John Puccio says:

            It’s all a matter of leadership building the right kind of culture. Bad companies way over bureacratize. All the best companies I’ve worked at put emphasis on effective use of time, all the worst, as a rule, have meetings about the meeting and meetings about the meeting about the meeting. There’s also cultivation to be done with email too but at least a bad e-mail typically only wastes seconds whereas bad meetings can kill entire days.Report

          • Tendiman in reply to John Puccio says:

            It is difficult to abuse e-mails as much as meetings.
            To abuse e-mails: you need to set up an automatic e-mail script that sends out complaints to the HR department whenever you are “misgendered” (by being referred to as he/she or it).

            Meetings — you just call a two hour meeting to discuss everyone’s gender identity. Or have a two hour “let’s all complain about Trump.” Or look up the books that say “for the purposes of improving morale, any uniformed officer of the Navy can demand that servicemen sing a particular sea shanty.” (Yes, actually done. Improved someone’s morale, at least).Report

          • Pinky in reply to John Puccio says:

            I wasn’t thinking about the pointless cc’s or “fyi”s. But starting an email chain for no reason, that’s harder to pull off than scheduling a meeting for no reason.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

              QUIT USING THE REPLY ALL BUTTON TO ASK PEOPLE TO TAKE YOU OFF OF THE ALL HANDS EMAIL LISTReport

              • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

                Ooh. I’m guessing you cut and pasted that from somewhere?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

                A couple of months into the “lockdown”, my work had a Replyallpocalypse.

                The “All Hands” email got used and, instead of putting it in the bcc: field, it was put in the To: field. A freakin *TON* of people who got an email about something surely lockdown related and one of the idiots out there replyed all and asked to be taken off of the email list. This resulted in other people realizing that they, too, wanted to be taken off of All Hands.

                And people replying with “it’s ‘all hands’ you can’t be taken off of it” and “guys, quit replying all and just reply to the guy” and “please quit replying all” and “please remove me from this email list please” and it wouldn’t stop and one guy made an excel sheet with a pie chart showing the percentage of emails made that were asking to be removed from all hands, the percentage of emails saying quit reply all, and the percentage of emails in “other”.

                This, of course, changed nothing in the percentages of people asking to be removed from the list and people replying all saying “QUIT REPLYING ALL”.

                But I still remember that email fondly.

                Anyway, later on in the afternoon, IT finally plugged the hole and sent all future email responses to that email to /dev/null.Report

              • Fish in reply to Jaybird says:

                That was a good day.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Fish says:

                On my last day of work, whenever that is, I am going to go back and reply all to that email.

                “Hey, I’m just catching up with my email now. Can I be removed from this email list?”

                And then leave.Report

            • John Puccio in reply to Pinky says:

              I’m not sure about that. But even if true, it all counts and it fills up your inbox. My favorite: Reply all “Thanks”

              I’m just – barely – old enough to remember a time where workplace comms consisted of just meetings, conference calls, phone calls and memorandums. It took about 2 months of having email to completely eradicate memos. And when it did, written communications became lazy, sloppy and exponentially sprawling. And depending on your workplace culture – a pure CYA medium. (But you were cc’d!!)Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to Philip H says:

      Have you never wondered if an email fell into a black hole somehow? One of my least favorite things is when I ask a para or someone else to do something and then I never hear back on whether it is done or not until I request a status update. Then for some reason, they get snappy and tell me it was done a while ago. How am I supposed to know if you don’t tell me?Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Philip H says:

      Emails can be ignored and are ignored routinely even when they shouldn’t be. Saying that email is a replacement for meetings assumes that they are going to be read and responded to. They aren’t. I’ve sent out many emails trying to get important information in situations where I have to do stuff and bear responsibility and get nothing.Report

      • Damon in reply to LeeEsq says:

        Agreed. Given the number of emails I get in a day, and the number of mass meeting invites:
        50 emails at least a day. 3-5 Non work related (meetings to talk about new products, explain products, talk about HR stuff, celebrate some company/corporate/international day, I mostly ignore email except from certain people. I have to sort through email every other day, since I’m copied on a while bunch of stuff.

        I LITERALLY cannot focus given the number of emails coming in, so I ignore it….look at it first in the morning and a scan topic at the end of the day. Then I sped an hour each week filing it away after reading it.Report

  3. Jaybird says:

    During the lockdown-adjacent period in March-Mayish of 2020, meetings were a good way to allow the WFH people to put “weekly accomplishments” in an email to people who needed bulletpoints for their power point slide that was going to be added to a power point presentation.

    There was also a hint of “we’re extroverts and we’re used to being in the office and talking all the time” in many of those meetings and, yeah, it was kinda nice to be on a call and talking to somebody who wasn’t one’s spouse or one’s cat.

    After the lockdowns relaxed and certainly after the vaccinations were widely available, some of those meetings stayed.

    And if you’re back to a “back-in-the-office” level of productivity and associated deliverables, the meetings are no longer a “might as well” but a “I’m doing this instead of being in the lab”.

    And you’d think that someone in upper would notice…Report

  4. Damon says:

    Back during the covid, when we were all remote, people would email you to see if you could talk, via skype..vs in the office they’d just stop by. After my third call, when the 30 minute chat was 20 mins of bitching, I realized the amount of time wasted listening, to and bitching, to someone. God the hours lost when I was in the office. Now, at least, if I’m wasting time, it’s only my time and I’m wasting it for what I want to waste it on….Report

  5. Pinky says:

    Andrew, were you in the Navy or from a Navy family? Something in your writing makes me curious.Report

  6. LeeEsq says:

    Meetings might be useless but I’ve sent out emails that never get responded too, so that isn’t great either.Report

  7. Saul Degraw says:

    I don’t think there is a good solution here. As Lee notes, it is also very possible to send out an email and not get a response. I have certainly had this happen to me.

    Meetings can make sure everyone is on the right track or have some brain storming potential.

    But there seem to be people whose entire working day is doing nothing but going from meeting to meeting and that always struck me as a bit strange.Report

  8. Saul Degraw says:

    My very rough understanding is that a lot of tech companies especially bigger ones did do a lot of hiring in 2020 and perhaps did over staff some or many projects. Amazon also has shut down things like Alexa because it realized there was not away to moneitize it easily or at all. I mainly use Alexa as a kind of verbal jukebox “Alexa, play the Kinks.”

    Also people are notoriously bad at actually evaluating work product so managers prefer to reward things like long hours in the office even if that person is a Goof and spending most of the day writing comments to blogs.Report

  9. Jaybird says:

    SungWon gives his take:

    Report

  10. Michael Cain says:

    I have long suspected that most serial killers get their initial motivation from mandatory early-morning staff meetings.Report