Triple Terror In Texas
Texas has been hit hard by tragedy lately. In just over a week, there were three horrific incidents that topped the national news. Last week, I wrote about the mass murder in Cleveland, Texas, my old hometown. This past weekend, another gunman took eight lives before being killed himself at an outlet mall in Allen, Texas, a Dallas suburb, and another eight were killed when a car slammed into a group of pedestrians in the border town of Brownsville.
The three incidents, although all tragic, were also very different. The differences underscore the problems with preventing such random violence.
The mall shooting was yet another example of what has become all too common. The gunman opened fire apparently at random killing eight and injuring seven before being dispatched by responding police officers.
Following familiar themes from recent spree murders, the perpetrator was armed with what is described as an “AR-15 style rifle” and other weapons on his person, along with five other guns in his car, and had a history of mental problems. Mauricio Garcia, 33, served three months in the army in 2008 per the Washington Post. He was dismissed from the army for an unspecified mental health issue. CNN reports he later worked as a security guard and received firearms training for that role. Authorities are investigating Garcia’s alleged white supremacist and neo-Nazi ties as well, but do not believe that he had accomplices at this time.
Garcia seems to have had recent problems as well. One of his neighbors told NBC News, “He tried to acknowledge us but seemed a little off. He wasn’t somebody you could carry a conversation with.”
In contrast, the Cleveland murders appear to have been spontaneous and targeted. The perpetrator in that incident, Francisco Oropesa, also using an AR-15, retaliated against a family that had complained about his late-night target practice.
The similarities are superficial at best. An AR-15 was used in both cases, but focusing on the weapon ignores the fact that Garcia had an arsenal in his car. Both men were Hispanic (or at least had Hispanic names), but Oropesa was an illegal immigrant and Garcia was apparently a Texas native or at least a long-time resident. While there are hints of mental illness in the case of Garcia, the only evidence of problems with Oropesa is his tendency to shoot his rifle late at night. Garcia’s motive was apparently to inflict as much pain as possible and then commit suicide by cop while Oropesa obviously valued his life and freedom.
The third incident didn’t use guns at all. On Sunday morning, 34-year-old George Alvarez ran a red light, rolled his Range Rover, and plowed into a group of pedestrians. killing eight and injuring another 10. Alvarez reportedly tried to flee the scene but was stopped by others. Video shows the victims lined up at a bus stop, many of them sitting on the curb, moments before the SUV barrels into the crowd.
It isn’t known whether Alvarez intentionally targeted the crowd or whether the incident was a horrible accident. What we do know is that Alvarez has a long rap sheep that includes several counts of assault and that he was not cooperative with police. While the incident may not have been intentional, in recent years motor vehicles have been used as weapons both in the US and abroad.
Three awful incidents and the only real common denominator seems to be the three troubled men who carried them out, leaving a total of 23 dead in their wake.
The big question is what can be done to prevent similar incidents in the future. Even if we exclude the Brownsville car crash from consideration, the answer is still not easy. That’s especially true since the public is still lacking a lot of information on all three perpetrators.
The most obvious answer is to take troubled and violent people off the streets, but that is easier said than done. Maybe Alvarez should have been behind bars, but Oropesa had been deported multiple times and kept turning up like a bad penny. Garcia seems to have had mental problems but his record and personality still allowed him to pass security officer training (although it isn’t clear when he last worked in security). I would be surprised if drugs, alcohol, and/or mental illness weren’t at play in the Brownsville and Cleveland incidents, but the information is just not there to confirm or deny that speculation at this point.
Problems with the strategy of taking violent people off the streets are prison overcrowding and the difficulty in committing people to mental institutions involuntarily. If more people are locked away, then more innocent people will be locked away, which is another tragedy in itself. There are many arguments against locking people up for a long time, and a lot of those reasons are very valid. Maybe we need to lock more people up or maybe we need to be more picky about who to confine.
Many of my readers believe that banning AR-15s is at least part of the answer. I disagree. There really is no evidence that either of the two shootings would not have happened or been as deadly without AR-15s. We know that Garcia had a multitude of other weapons at hand and Oropesa might also have just as easily used a different type of rifle in his crimes if his AR wasn’t available.
It has been just under a year since I wrote about the Violence Project in the wake of another Texas spree murder in Uvalde. An analysis of the data on spree murders found that “semiautomatic assault weapons” were used by less than a third of rampage killers. Handguns were the most popular choice. Remember that one of the deadliest spree killings was the Virginia Tech rampage in 2007 where the killer used semi-automatic pistols.
We can be confident that even if we did ban AR-15s, spree killers would just switch to another type of weapon. Considering the political capital that would have to be expended to ban “assault rifles” in general or AR-15s in particular, the effort would be better focused elsewhere.
An example of the futility of the idea of further restrictions on AR-15s is the report from the Associated Press that a Republican-led committee in the Texas House advanced a bill to raise the minimum age to purchase an AR-15 from 18 to 21. We don’t know where Garcia and Oropesa got their guns, but we do know that they were 33 and 38 respectively. The bill would have changed nothing.
What would have changed things? I can think of only two possibilities. One is locking away the people with violent criminal records and the second is preventing people with criminal records and histories of mental illness from buying guns.
We’ve discussed the first option and its difficulties, but there are several ways to accomplish the second. Good background checks that include mental health information are a valuable tool in reducing gun violence. At this point, it’s impossible to say whether it would have made a difference in Allen or Cleveland.
The Rand Corporation has data on these and other proposals for combatting gun violence. These include waiting periods, which may reduce suicides and gun violence while also possibly helping to prevent straw purchases, but they seem unlikely to have helped in either of these incidents. Oropesa had his gun for quite a while and there is evidence from other spree murders that the perpetrators often plan their attacks far in advance.
Personally, I think that red flag laws are a promising idea for keeping guns out of the hands of the violently mentally ill, but evidence to support that is scarce so far. Part of the problem is that enforcement can be spotty for the controversial laws and if people don’t report the red flags, there can be no enforcement.
The bad news is that mass shootings can be difficult to stop. The good news is that despite the headlines, your odds of being involved in a spree killing are still extremely low. You can improve your chances by maintaining situational awareness.
An FBI study found that spree killers go through several phases of planning, preparation, and acquisition before their attacks. If others can spot and report their behavior, attacks can be stopped before they start.
Some red flags that everyone should be alert for include:
- Violent fantasies
- Uncontrolled anger
- Threats
- Loner or social misfit
- Stalking
- Fascination with weapons and fighting
- Imitation of other famous murderers
If you see something, say something, especially if multiple red flags are present. Who to talk to can range from police to officials at your place of work or school. Human Resources or security would be a good place to start.
If the worst does happen, remember the mantra: Run, hide, fight. [Watch an excellent video on survival strategies here. ]
If possible, run to safety and call 911.
If running isn’t possible, hide. Silence your phone, turn off lights, lock doors, and try to stay quiet and out of sight.
If the first two alternatives don’t work, you may have to fight. Consider what you can use for a weapon. Most of us don’t carry guns on a regular basis, but fire extinguishers, sharp objects like scissors, and blunt objects like chairs, bottles, and computers are some common items that can be used as weapons. None of these has very good odds against an active shooter, so this should be the last option.
I’m not a person who says that prayer is useless, but we can and should take action while we pray. That can range from political action to becoming more aware of own surroundings.
Be cautious, be alert, and be ready, but don’t be paranoid.
——
MY PROSTATE CANCER BLOG has a new installment. This post features strategies for preparing yourself for a health emergency. This is the last of the initial tranche of posts that I had planned, but I will add further updates as my story unfolds. Thanks to everyone who read, shared, and contributed. Read it here.
So, because we can’t prevent all violence with a single change in the law, we aren’t even going to try anything? This sounds like a cognate of people refusing the COVID vaccines because it didn’t make the virus bounce off their bodies like bullets on Captain America’s vibranium shield. They weren’t going to get the vaccine anyway even if it did do that, and the Texas Legislature’s gun caucus wasn’t going to let a bill advance even if there were data available suggesting it could help. And it irrationally obstructs efforts to make things better.
That is because possession of guns, particularly when it is public and prominent, is a marker of political-tribal identification. To have weapons, to open-carry them, to brag of having them and to mention them in conversation (even in jest) as a conflict resolution tool — these behaviors are, or have become, cultural. And no, you can’t legislate a culture away, particularly when the members of that culture weild significant political power.
I too support red flag laws, despite serious misgivings that they will 1) be used disproportionately on racial minorities and 2) reveal a terrifying truth that a much higher percentage of our population is closer to the edge of mental health breakdowns than we’d ever suspected. But they aren’t and can’t be enough. Nor will any amount of effort eliminate all violence.
But let’s please remember that we’re necessarily going to talk about marginal improvements taking hold over time and only measurable statistically and in retrospect with necessarily vague causation if we’re going to talk about anything but the status quo. The passages quoted here skirt the edge of allowing the perfect to become the enemy of the better-than-right-now.Report
I think the only thing bans and ongoing threats of bans have measurably succeeded in doing is causing millions and millions of them to fly off the shelves while they remain available. To me that’s the great legacy (and irony) of the old federal AWB anyway.Report
I feel like we’ve all been tacitly acknowledging that mental health will be a ballooning issue in the next decade.Report
Agreed. It needn’t be tacit, either.Report
A dissent on the it’s mental health:
https://www.vox.com/politics/23715619/texas-mall-shooting-greg-abbott-gun-violence-mental-healthReport
I’m commenting broadly on how we’ve been talking about mental health issues more frequently, and I anticipate it only increasing.
As for the Vox argument, yes it’s true that only a small percentage of people with mental illness turn violent, it’s also true that only a small percentage of any group turn violent. I’m prepared to accept that a guy who shoots up a mall might be simply evil, but many many people would say that a guy who shoots up a mall is definitionally mentally ill. And I think that points to a big reason why we’re going to keep talking about mental illness on this site: with the loss of a common philosophy, we also lost a common agreement on what constitutes mental illness.Report
“So, because we can’t prevent all violence with a single change in the law, we aren’t even going to try anything?”
We need to do something! We need to do something! And this is something, therefore we need to do it!Report
Not All? We have guys who spend years planning their attack and have access to other guns. Getting rid of the green one should do nothing.Report
The Pro-Gun side should just come out and say “we know that gun control works and makes for a safer society but we care about gun rights so much we would rather live in an ultra-dangerous country where going out for a simple errand could be fatal because some wacko decided to go off with his gun.” It would at least be more honest than the “well actually gun control doesn’t work” statistic torture when it clearly does.Report
Going out for a simple errand could be fatal because some whacko decided to go off with his car. I think maybe we need to worry more about how we’re encouraging whackos to think “the whole damn country’s goin’ down in flames and nobody can really stop me taking out a few of the bastards if I really wanted…”Report
I tend to agree with you – though I note that when we on the left point out that the whole country isn’t going down in flames we get accused – at best – of being insensitive. So how about we all change the narrative together.Report
Oh, so you would say that there’s not a rising tide of anti-immigrant homophobic gun-focused violence in this country coming from white supremacist terrorists?Report
They mean that the country is getting worse in the sense of people like you, and the country is doing better in the sense of the people like them.Report
There are other countries with incel/4chan types of culture that allow angry and alienated young men to vent their frustrations and radicalize. Their mass murder rates or homicide rates in general are far below those of the United States. As his mandatory: https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527Report
The one actual solution to the issue of these mass shootings is the one that can’t even be discussed.Report
Cue the famous Onion headline.Report
“The problem is all these men who feel like they lack meaningful intimate-partner relationships with women! And the solution is to make sure they know it’s their own damn fault because they’re irredeemable trash who should just die.“Report
This dovetails with the ongoing discussion about visible disorder.
As should be obvious, the fear of chaos and disorder isn’t rational, and doesn’t respond to statistics and logic.
Yes it may be true that crime has been declining and yes it may be true that statistically, having your child die in a mass shooting is still unlikely.
But the insight of the Broken Windows theory is that it doesn’t matter. The sense of chaos and “things out of control” are seeing a broken window or turnstile jumper or videos of dead children.
And as has been pointed out here many times, eventually people react either rationally or irrationally, and most often in an illiberal direction.
America has about the same rate of mental illness as our peer nations. About the same rate of thieves, murderers, rapists and delinquents. There isn’t anything unique about the American character that makes us more homicidal.
It isn’t possible anymore to look at our near-daily mass shootings, then compare us to our peer nations, and conclude that “nothing can be done, says only nation where this regularly happens”.
It isn’t possible both from a logical sense, and from a political sense.
The solution will involve a long string of “necessary but insufficient” steps, everything from registering all guns, to red flag laws, to assault weapon bans, to involuntary confinement of the mentally ill, to increased prison times for crimes.Report
I meant to put your statement in blockquote.
Report
What’s the new standard for quoting?Report
Did < blockquote > text < /blockquote > not work? (Without the spaces?)
Edit: My Lord, it doesn’t.Report
Due to a sequence of decisions over a few years, the situation is: (a) WordPress allows the <blockquote> tags and they were/are present; (b) the theme that does all the page layout strips away all special handling for blockquotes in its CSS; and (c) the CSS that overrides the theme and provides the special handling (italics and the leading oversized double quote glyph) is only loaded when State of the Discussion is activated. SotD was deactivated during today’s problems, but is active now, and the quotes are displayed the way we’re all used to. There’s some other theme-related CSS in SotD to override some vertical spacing problems. This situation is… less than optimal.Report
Thank you for taking care of us all.
I believe we have moved past me owing you a growler and onto me owing you a keg.Report
I do some picky little things. Will does the heavy lifting.Report
At least there’s a picture of a cartoon cat for the site status. If you post a clip from Old Yeller, then we’ll know something’s really wrong.Report
Do you think other nations don’t have the same violent subculture? They don’t have fatherless boys, ghettos of outgroup minorities, drug use and addiction, criminal gangs, all the same pathologies that we have?
Go back to the wave of Islamophobia during the Iraq war and read about the “no go” areas of Paris and London, the dark tales of grooming gangs and rape and criminal activity.
Yet weirdly, there isn’t the same level of gun violence.
Gun suicides in the UK are about 100 yes one hundred, per year. In America, about 25,000.
Are we to think that America has a uniquely suicidal culture?
Take away the guns. By any means necessary.Report
Some do, some dont.
If you go down to a zip code level, you see that there are zip codes that are like Haiti and others that are like Iceland.Report
They do have mass shootings though, even if not at the same rate. I also don’t think it really undermines Dark’s point about culture. There may be less violent street crime with its disenfranchised minorities but you’ll also have situations like 2015 in Paris with people pledging allegiance to Islamic State and shooting 130 victims in a theater. That tends to get filed as ‘terrorism’ instrad of ‘mass shooting’ but I’m not sure there’s some hard line. It’s just a different version in a different place with different people and problems.
Maybe more like our experience was the situation in Hamburg back in March where the guy legally obtained a semi automatic handgun for sport shooting then killed 6 or 7 and injured another 6 or 7 more. That’s in a country where self defense is essentially illegal, owning a gun is regulated well beyond any gun control advocate’s wildest dreams in the US, and as I understand it you have to pass a psychological exam to get a license, which you have to regularly prove you still need (note self defense is expressly not a need, it has to be sport shooting, hunting, or collecting). They also have unannounced visits to your house to make sure you are complying with safe storage, etc.
Sadly they failed to suss out that this person believed he had been visiting hell, something he shared publicly, and needed to take vengeance against people at his former church. The police also didn’t respond to warnings from acquaintances that he had lost his mind. Go figure.
Point being isn’t that we couldn’t do better. The more I hear about TX law the stupider it sounds, just as I think eliminating all standards for carrying a weapon is dumb. Does mean though that we shouldn’t live in some fantasy land, and calibrate our expectations about what is and isn’t possible.Report
First, this isn’t a binary thing where the culture existing at all means we have a very high murder rate. Size of the sub-culture matters a lot.
2nd, The poisonous part of the culture isn’t a result of anything you said.
Go do a deep dive on the Alabama sports killing Darius Miles was involved in. No criminal gang. Little to no drug use. The professional athlete has money. No rape or other criminal activity. Everyone is having a good time at a nightclub, a guy makes a pass at a woman and feels he’s been disrespected by someone else there. Ergo it’s time for the guns to come out.
Being poor doesn’t cause this although this culture could cause being poor.Report
Everyone is having a good time at a Berlin/Paris/London/Tokyo/Sydney nightclub, a guy makes a pass at a woman and feels he’s been disrespected by someone else there. Ergo it’s time for the guns to come out.
Except…no one has guns.Report
Iceland is doing just fine. No one has guns!
Haiti is doing pretty badly. A lot of people have guns.Report
Legally it’s the other way around. Haiti’s laws are pretty close to the typical US liberal plantation which has a serious murder rate.
Iceland says you have to be 20 and not-crazy.
Culture does the heavy lifting, both positively and negatively.Report
It also doesn’t hurt that LITERALLY almost everyone is related to one another in Iceland. There’s even an phone app that will warn you if you are close to someone of the opposite sex that is too genetically close to you for marriage/reproduction.Report
This is a good point. People rarely engage in violence to other people who are closely related to themselves.Report
Did some research.
There’s about 1 gun for every 3 Icelanders. That seems like a relatively high amount of gun density, suggesting that most households have a weapon on hand. How readily on hand? I haven’t figured that out yet, but there are suggestions that no one is sleeping with a loaded handgun under their pillow the way I’ve heard some Americans brag about.
The background checking involved in being “not-crazy” to standards of Icelandic governmental acceptability is substantially more intrusive than we would ever endure here in the United States. You get an interview by the sheriff who asks what it is that you want to do with the gun, you must undergo a physical and mental health examination, and you must pass a weeks-long firearms safety and skills class. The entire process of initiating official inquiries into getting a gun and then actually having it can take a year or more.
But. Iceland hasn’t had a gun murder since 2007, and the only police shooting of a suspect in the nation’s history was ten years ago. The chief of police apologized to the victim’s family. As far as I can tell, there are almost no homicides of any sort. Comparing the total population with the posted murder rate suggests that there was one homicide in the entire country in 2019. Note that the rate shot up to five homicides in 2020, a wave of violence that had never been seen before. (Imagine what people would have said about Portland had its murder rate quintupled in one year!)
Dark Matter is probably right that there are powerful cultural factors at work here. Iceland is atypical in a lot of ways, even compared to its European counterparts.
But it’s not true that almost no one has guns. The Icelanders just don’t use them on each other.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1268647/homicide-rate-iceland/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iceland-gun-loving-country-no-shooting-murders-2007-n872726Report
You’re claiming every culture in the world is equally murderous.
How about we limit this to the US.
Men in other USA neighborhoods make passes at women and get told “go away” by their boyfriends. And that happens without the guns coming out.
The problem follows that culture around. It doesn’t follow gun access around or every zip in the US would have the same murder rate.
Now if you have a way to disarm that specific culture, by all means, put that on the table. Far as I can tell, we’ve already tried to disarm that specific culture and we’ve failed.
If we can’t disarm the people doing the shooting then we’re stuck with pretending that we have a different problem. That’s why we get proposed laws pointed at law abiding zero murder zip codes.Report
Why limit ourselves to the US?
When we want to talk about the difficulty of building high speed rail in California or a subway in Seattle, its sensible to compare these things to our peer nations and notice that they can somehow build superior transportation systems for far less.
Our closest, most similar nations like Canada or Australia or the UK watch the same teevee shows, the same films, listen to the same music and go to the same churches.
A lot of Canadian cities are used by Hollywood as doubles for New York or Chicago, because everything looks and feels so similar.
There’s no reason, other than guns, why the level of violence in Toronto or Vancouver or Calgary should be much different than Detroit, Chicago or Seattle, but it is.
If you want to talk about “dysfunctional subcultures” the only uniquely American dysfunctional subculture is our bizarre American fetish for guns.Report
Because everywhere in the US has access to guns. Thus we can do apples to apples comparisons and see if your “murder rates follow gun access around” argument works.
What we see instead is high murder rates follow cultures around and not gun access.
Those places have very different demographics from our violent places.
If we match them up with demographically similar rates in the US we see the same murder rates. Vancouver could be matched against Irvine California (600k vs 300k people, similar percentages).
Of course Irvine typically has a murder rate of zero so there’s that.Report
It isn’t that the presence of guns causes murder, but that the presence of guns changes assault to murder, a deranged knife attack into a mass slaughter.
You’re attempting to essentialize dysfunctional communities but getting cause and effect confused. You use murder rate to assign the label of dysfunction, but the murder rate only exists because of guns.
Every city like Toronto or London or Tokyo has some dysfunctional groups or individuals, but they aren’t able to turn a casual insult into a slaughter.Report
I’ve never heard of a drive-by stabbing.Report
2021 Canadian stats as far as I could find them:
38.25 million population, with about 25 million white, 1.5 million black, and the remainder “racialized” other. There were 762 homicides in the country, with 515 reported white, and about half of the remaining being black, so let’s figure 123. That works out to a murder rate of 1.99 all, 2.06 white, 8.2 black, and 1.05 racialized other.Report
If I’m reading the graph correctly, that murder rate for whites matches US’s murder rate for whites.
They do better for Black and I have no idea what “racialized other” means so I’ll ignore it.
Their overall rate largely matches their white rate, not because they don’t have a more violent sub-culture but because it’s smaller and less violent than ours.Report
“Racialized” seems to be their word for non-white. If I’m reading their demographics correctly, a lot of that is indigenous and Asian. Canada doesn’t provide crime stats by race, so I had to back these out, but it would appear that the black murder rate is 4x the white rate.Report
There’s a common swindle pulled by anti-gun activists, where they compare gun deaths in the US, or in states with high gun ownership, to gun deaths in countries or states with low gun ownership. Despite the obvious fallacy, I see this all the time. Much more often than I see comparisons of total homicides and suicides.
The thing is, we don’t care about gun suicides or gun homicides as such. We care about suicides and homicides. The US doesn’t have 250 times as many suicides as the UK overall. It has about ten times as many: A fivefold increase because the US has five times the population, and a twofold increase because the US has roughly twice the per-capita suicide rate.
Twice the suicide per capita is still pretty bad, but you understand that 250 is two full orders of magnitude greater than two, right? Seriously, just don’t do this. It’s intellectually trashy. That aside, there are two things you have to take into account here:
1. The UK has a relatively low suicide rate by European standards. I don’t know why this is, but this is not the norm.
2. As you can see in the chart above, the US currently has a relatively high suicide rate compared to other wealthy countries, but in 2000 it was at the low end. Over the past twenty years, suicide has risen in the US, while falling in many European countries (also some good news from Japan, which had long been notorious for high suicide rates).
It’s not entirely clear why suicide rates have increased over the last 20 years in the in the US. Gun ownership has been stable or declining over that period. Socioeconomic explanations, popular for ideological reasons, run into the inconvenient fact that the suicide rate has been steadily rising through good times and bad. Note also in the linked chart that Greece has maintained a rock-bottom suicide rate throughout the implosion of their economy.
My pet theory is opioid abuse, which has been rising over that time period and is a known risk factor for suicide, but this is speculative. One point of evidence in favor of this is that the black suicide rate in the US, traditionally much lower than the white suicide rate, has been climbing over the past few years in tandem with the increase in their opioid overdose rates.Report
The evidence is pretty incontrovertible that access to guns makes a big difference, with suicides, homicides and mass killings.
Every one of our peer countries has roughly the same amount of depressed people, criminal people, psychotic people. Roughly the same number of gangs, drug addicts, and dysfunctional subcultures.
There isn’t any explanation for why, when it comes to violence, rural Alabama or Ohio should resemble the former president called a “3rd World sh1thole country” other than, we make it easy to kill people here.Report
“…and dysfunctional subcultures”
Stats?Report
I’m pretty sure this isn’t right. Actually I’m pretty sure the percentage of dysfunctional subculture sets the murder rate everywhere.
It’s been more than a decade since I’ve seen someone look up the stats and they used demographics so there’s room to be wrong.Report
It is Tim McVeigh’s nation now: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/08/opinion/timothy-mcveigh-mass-shootings.htmlReport
Mass shootings and open carry of weapons is the type of visible disorder that the American Right is prone to tolerate in the same way the Anglophone left tolerates drug use by homeless people on the streets. Tolerating mass shootings is worse because it leaves people dead.Report
Yes, unlike homeless drug abuse.
There are a handful of responses to visible disorder.
1. The Rich tend to hire Private Security. The private security can be armed. Remember Richard Heller? He was the guy who carried a gun as part of his job in private security and he applied for a handgun permit and was denied. It’s his name on DC vs. Heller.
2. “Vigilantism”. This is the attitude that says “Well, we can’t afford private security. Better carry a gun myself.”
It kinda strikes me as distasteful when folks from #1 mock folks from #2.Report
Hey, Lee, are you Rich and do you have Private Security? No, me neither. Know anyone else here who is and does?Report
There are a couple of fairly subtle ways to do it. Work at a place with security guards, for example.
I work at a place with security guards, after all.
Live in a gated community is another.
There are a lot of little ways to take advantage of an umbrella.Report
My office building has what one might refer to as security guards. They’re unarmed, so they are more like receptionists. My home doesn’t have any security guards. And damn few of us live in gated communities. If you have anyone around here in mind, name names.Report
Oh, so you work in a building with security guards too.
I’ve actually had conversations with our guards and I’ve talked to them about carrying. They work for a security guard company (Pinkerton adjacent) and I asked about guns and whatnot and, seriously, this is something that they talk about among themselves.
The job where we are is *NOT* one with guns but it could be if our management paid for it but they have a number of guards who have their permits and so transitioning to carrying would be trivial for at least one of the guards at work (there used to be two, but he got a job as a prison guard for a nice raise).
There’s also a bit of a weird pay thing. The guard that I spoke to told me that he got offered our gig for $X or a gig where he could carry for a couple of bucks an hour *LESS*. He took the more money. He told me that there are guys who would prefer to carry the gun.
Go figure.
The community that I live in isn’t a gated one but it is close enough to our local SLAC that the police respond to calls quickly enough to help you hang up the phone.
Lotta umbrellas out there to be under.Report
So you don’t have armed security either. Interesting to know. Do you feel less secure because of that?Report
No, not particularly.
But I live in one of the Icelandic zip codes.Report
Security is a funny concept.
Lotta people think in terms of the ADT television ads, where the threat is from some swarthy hooded figure kicking in a door, thwarted by the Man With A Gun.
Except…in most of these mass shootings, the killer is a trusted person who is customarily allowed into the security umbrella without question.
Like, the Texas shooter.
If you were at a mall and saw him walk in the door carrying a gun, would you freak out or just nod and turn back to what you were doing?
This is why I say the spree shootings are so corrosive to public order because they remind us that no one is trusted, nowhere is safe.
The next shooter might be your kid’s kindergarten teacher, or the accountant at your work or the choir director at church.
So even if mass shootings ae statistically insignificant, politically and culturally they are the equal of a terrorist attack, every day.Report
Eh, I think it’s a “soft target” situation.
Which house are you more likely to burgle? The one with a “THIS HOUSE PROTECTED BY SMITH AND WESSON” and “FORGET THE DOG, BEWARE OF OWNER!” signs or the one with “DEFUND THE POLICE! ABOLISH THE 2ND AMENDMENT!” signs in front of it?Report
The former, because they’re advertising that there are guns to steal.Report
I went to google thinking “surely there are statistics on this” but all of the hits are ads for security companies and they all say “THE HOUSES MOST LIKELY TO BE BURGLED ARE THE HOUSES IN *YOUR* DEMOGRAPHIC! BUY OUR PRODUCT!”Report
I don’t know the statistics, but cops specifically tell people not to put those signs up (on their homes or cars), because it’s like painting a target on your home/vehicle.
Now, cops lie a lot, but not usually to the people who are likely to put up a sign about owning a gun, so…Report
Open carry isn’t visible disorder. If anything, it’s visible order.Report
Interestingly in my CCW class the instructor said open carry outside of some kind of obvious official purpose was a good way to get shot. I kind of agree, even if I wouldn’t totally prohibit it.Report
Heard a story from a cop i knew about open carry.
He said was trained NEVER to let anyone he carried outside of work. Story was of a cop who was friendly with a quik e mart clerk who knew he carried when out of uniform. Mart was being held up when off duty cop came in. The crooks were trying to stay hidden so they told the clerk to just not say anything. Clerk panics when off duty cop comes in and yells that he is being robbed. Crooks shoot cop before he even knew what was happening. If he had been open carrying would have been dead no matter what. If he had concealed carry he could have survived.
Open carry is not about defense. It’s about showing off your gun thus making yourself the first person shooters will kill.Report
That’s just the price of freedom.Report
I don’t know about elsewhere, but even in a place like Texas, open carrying is a good way to get the cops called on you. I’ve seen it happen many times.
Also, in most places, you’ll be given a wide berth, or people will just leave when they see you, so if you want to hang out at the dog park with no other people or dogs, a good thing to do is walk in wearing a gun on your belt.Report
In the vast majority of contexts normal people interpret it as threatening, not reassuring. I don’t see why anyone would see that as controversial regardless of how one feels about law and public policy.Report
I certainly would! And have, on the occasions I’ve seen people open carrying, mainly on my journeys to Southern and Eastern Oregon.
And by “people” who I’ve seen open carrying, I mean “men,” and by “men,” I mean “middle-aged white men.”
I don’t fear the gun, I respect its power. I fear the dude carrying it. I fear him because he’s made it a point to wander around with a weapon on display, making a plain statement that he has the capability to use it. So I fear that he has a temper, that he’s short on patience, that he’s intolerant of conflict, that he’s got some kind of a chip on his shoulder. The fact that this guy has chosen to open carry makes it seem more likely in my mind that he possesses those personality traits than otherwise.
Because even in rural places populated mainly by very conservative, gun-loving folks, places like Southern or Eastern Oregon, open carrying is unusual, ostentatious behavior.Report
I used to see it in Virginia occasionally, but haven’t in a pretty long time, now that NoVa (where I am most likely to be) has been completely subsumed as a DC suburb. I am less likely to feel threatened so much as think the person is a dumbass I do not need to be in proximity of, lest something dumb happen.Report
Philando Castile and Tamir Rice were not available for comment.Report
Tolerate How? Do you have a workable solution? Is this the part where we outlaw “military style” guns and expect mass murderers who plan for years will give up because their gun isn’t green?Report
White Supremacy has evolved since I was a kid.
None of these new guys could join the Ida Lewis Yacht Club of Newport. They could work in the kitchen… but we wouldn’t let them *JOIN*.Report