Triple Terror In Texas

David Thornton

David Thornton is a freelance writer and professional pilot who has also lived in Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. He is a graduate of the University of Georgia and Emmanuel College. He is Christian conservative/libertarian who was fortunate enough to have seen Ronald Reagan in person during his formative years. A former contributor to The Resurgent, David now writes for the Racket News with fellow Resurgent alum, Steve Berman, and his personal blog, CaptainKudzu. He currently lives with his wife and daughter near Columbus, Georgia. His son is serving in the US Air Force. You can find him on Twitter @CaptainKudzu and Facebook.

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73 Responses

  1. Burt Likko says:

    An example of the futility of the idea of further restrictions on AR-15s is the report from the Associated Press that a Republican-led committee in the Texas House advanced a bill to raise the minimum age to purchase an AR-15 from 18 to 21. We don’t know where Garcia and Oropesa got their guns, but we do know that they were 33 and 38 respectively. The bill would have changed nothing.

    Many of my readers believe that banning AR-15s is at least part of the answer. I disagree. There really is no evidence that either of the two shootings would not have happened or been as deadly without AR-15s. We know that Garcia had a multitude of other weapons at hand and Oropesa might also have just as easily used a different type of rifle in his crimes if his AR wasn’t available.

    So, because we can’t prevent all violence with a single change in the law, we aren’t even going to try anything? This sounds like a cognate of people refusing the COVID vaccines because it didn’t make the virus bounce off their bodies like bullets on Captain America’s vibranium shield. They weren’t going to get the vaccine anyway even if it did do that, and the Texas Legislature’s gun caucus wasn’t going to let a bill advance even if there were data available suggesting it could help. And it irrationally obstructs efforts to make things better.

    That is because possession of guns, particularly when it is public and prominent, is a marker of political-tribal identification. To have weapons, to open-carry them, to brag of having them and to mention them in conversation (even in jest) as a conflict resolution tool — these behaviors are, or have become, cultural. And no, you can’t legislate a culture away, particularly when the members of that culture weild significant political power.

    I too support red flag laws, despite serious misgivings that they will 1) be used disproportionately on racial minorities and 2) reveal a terrifying truth that a much higher percentage of our population is closer to the edge of mental health breakdowns than we’d ever suspected. But they aren’t and can’t be enough. Nor will any amount of effort eliminate all violence.

    But let’s please remember that we’re necessarily going to talk about marginal improvements taking hold over time and only measurable statistically and in retrospect with necessarily vague causation if we’re going to talk about anything but the status quo. The passages quoted here skirt the edge of allowing the perfect to become the enemy of the better-than-right-now.Report

    • InMD in reply to Burt Likko says:

      I think the only thing bans and ongoing threats of bans have measurably succeeded in doing is causing millions and millions of them to fly off the shelves while they remain available. To me that’s the great legacy (and irony) of the old federal AWB anyway.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Burt Likko says:

      I feel like we’ve all been tacitly acknowledging that mental health will be a ballooning issue in the next decade.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Burt Likko says:

      “So, because we can’t prevent all violence with a single change in the law, we aren’t even going to try anything?”

      We need to do something! We need to do something! And this is something, therefore we need to do it!Report

    • Daniel Buss in reply to Burt Likko says:

      So, because we can’t prevent all violence with a single change in the law, we aren’t even going to try anything?

      Not All? We have guys who spend years planning their attack and have access to other guns. Getting rid of the green one should do nothing.Report

  2. LeeEsq says:

    The Pro-Gun side should just come out and say “we know that gun control works and makes for a safer society but we care about gun rights so much we would rather live in an ultra-dangerous country where going out for a simple errand could be fatal because some wacko decided to go off with his gun.” It would at least be more honest than the “well actually gun control doesn’t work” statistic torture when it clearly does.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to LeeEsq says:

      Going out for a simple errand could be fatal because some whacko decided to go off with his car. I think maybe we need to worry more about how we’re encouraging whackos to think “the whole damn country’s goin’ down in flames and nobody can really stop me taking out a few of the bastards if I really wanted…”Report

      • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck says:

        I tend to agree with you – though I note that when we on the left point out that the whole country isn’t going down in flames we get accused – at best – of being insensitive. So how about we all change the narrative together.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H says:

          Oh, so you would say that there’s not a rising tide of anti-immigrant homophobic gun-focused violence in this country coming from white supremacist terrorists?Report

  3. Saul Degraw says:

    There are other countries with incel/4chan types of culture that allow angry and alienated young men to vent their frustrations and radicalize. Their mass murder rates or homicide rates in general are far below those of the United States. As his mandatory: https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527Report

  4. Chip Daniels says:

    This dovetails with the ongoing discussion about visible disorder.

    As should be obvious, the fear of chaos and disorder isn’t rational, and doesn’t respond to statistics and logic.

    Yes it may be true that crime has been declining and yes it may be true that statistically, having your child die in a mass shooting is still unlikely.

    But the insight of the Broken Windows theory is that it doesn’t matter. The sense of chaos and “things out of control” are seeing a broken window or turnstile jumper or videos of dead children.

    And as has been pointed out here many times, eventually people react either rationally or irrationally, and most often in an illiberal direction.

    America has about the same rate of mental illness as our peer nations. About the same rate of thieves, murderers, rapists and delinquents. There isn’t anything unique about the American character that makes us more homicidal.

    It isn’t possible anymore to look at our near-daily mass shootings, then compare us to our peer nations, and conclude that “nothing can be done, says only nation where this regularly happens”.

    It isn’t possible both from a logical sense, and from a political sense.
    The solution will involve a long string of “necessary but insufficient” steps, everything from registering all guns, to red flag laws, to assault weapon bans, to involuntary confinement of the mentally ill, to increased prison times for crimes.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      There isn’t anything unique about the American character that makes us more homicidal.

      Saying “American character” is pretending that inner city Chicago has the same murder profile as zero murder suburbia. Uniquely to America, we have a violent subculture which moves the numbers. Eliminate that and our murder rate is the same as our peer nations that don’t have that subculture.

      The basketball player murder on the other post here on OT is a good example of how that culture works in practice. Someone felt disrespected and started opening fire. Not a drug deal, not even a gang thing. Below is the timeline.

      https://patch.com/alabama/tuscaloosa/new-evidence-provides-compelling-account-bama-hoops-murder-caseReport

      • Dark Matter in reply to Dark Matter says:

        I meant to put your statement in blockquote.

        There isn’t anything unique about the American character that makes us more homicidal.

        Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Dark Matter says:

          What’s the new standard for quoting?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Dark Matter says:

            Did < blockquote > text < /blockquote > not work? (Without the spaces?)

            Somebody said something.

            Edit: My Lord, it doesn’t.Report

            • Michael Cain in reply to Jaybird says:

              Due to a sequence of decisions over a few years, the situation is: (a) WordPress allows the <blockquote> tags and they were/are present; (b) the theme that does all the page layout strips away all special handling for blockquotes in its CSS; and (c) the CSS that overrides the theme and provides the special handling (italics and the leading oversized double quote glyph) is only loaded when State of the Discussion is activated. SotD was deactivated during today’s problems, but is active now, and the quotes are displayed the way we’re all used to. There’s some other theme-related CSS in SotD to override some vertical spacing problems. This situation is… less than optimal.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

        Do you think other nations don’t have the same violent subculture? They don’t have fatherless boys, ghettos of outgroup minorities, drug use and addiction, criminal gangs, all the same pathologies that we have?

        Go back to the wave of Islamophobia during the Iraq war and read about the “no go” areas of Paris and London, the dark tales of grooming gangs and rape and criminal activity.

        Yet weirdly, there isn’t the same level of gun violence.

        Gun suicides in the UK are about 100 yes one hundred, per year. In America, about 25,000.

        Are we to think that America has a uniquely suicidal culture?

        Take away the guns. By any means necessary.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Some do, some dont.

          If you go down to a zip code level, you see that there are zip codes that are like Haiti and others that are like Iceland.Report

        • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          They do have mass shootings though, even if not at the same rate. I also don’t think it really undermines Dark’s point about culture. There may be less violent street crime with its disenfranchised minorities but you’ll also have situations like 2015 in Paris with people pledging allegiance to Islamic State and shooting 130 victims in a theater. That tends to get filed as ‘terrorism’ instrad of ‘mass shooting’ but I’m not sure there’s some hard line. It’s just a different version in a different place with different people and problems.

          Maybe more like our experience was the situation in Hamburg back in March where the guy legally obtained a semi automatic handgun for sport shooting then killed 6 or 7 and injured another 6 or 7 more. That’s in a country where self defense is essentially illegal, owning a gun is regulated well beyond any gun control advocate’s wildest dreams in the US, and as I understand it you have to pass a psychological exam to get a license, which you have to regularly prove you still need (note self defense is expressly not a need, it has to be sport shooting, hunting, or collecting). They also have unannounced visits to your house to make sure you are complying with safe storage, etc.

          Sadly they failed to suss out that this person believed he had been visiting hell, something he shared publicly, and needed to take vengeance against people at his former church. The police also didn’t respond to warnings from acquaintances that he had lost his mind. Go figure.

          Point being isn’t that we couldn’t do better. The more I hear about TX law the stupider it sounds, just as I think eliminating all standards for carrying a weapon is dumb. Does mean though that we shouldn’t live in some fantasy land, and calibrate our expectations about what is and isn’t possible.Report

        • Daniel Buss in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Do you think other nations don’t have the same violent subculture? They don’t have fatherless boys, ghettos of outgroup minorities, drug use and addiction, criminal gangs, all the same pathologies that we have?

          First, this isn’t a binary thing where the culture existing at all means we have a very high murder rate. Size of the sub-culture matters a lot.

          2nd, The poisonous part of the culture isn’t a result of anything you said.

          Go do a deep dive on the Alabama sports killing Darius Miles was involved in. No criminal gang. Little to no drug use. The professional athlete has money. No rape or other criminal activity. Everyone is having a good time at a nightclub, a guy makes a pass at a woman and feels he’s been disrespected by someone else there. Ergo it’s time for the guns to come out.

          Being poor doesn’t cause this although this culture could cause being poor.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Daniel Buss says:

            Everyone is having a good time at a Berlin/Paris/London/Tokyo/Sydney nightclub, a guy makes a pass at a woman and feels he’s been disrespected by someone else there. Ergo it’s time for the guns to come out.

            Except…no one has guns.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Iceland is doing just fine. No one has guns!

              Haiti is doing pretty badly. A lot of people have guns.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

                Iceland is doing just fine. No one has guns!
                Haiti is doing pretty badly. A lot of people have guns.

                Legally it’s the other way around. Haiti’s laws are pretty close to the typical US liberal plantation which has a serious murder rate.

                Iceland says you have to be 20 and not-crazy.

                Culture does the heavy lifting, both positively and negatively.Report

              • Damon in reply to Dark Matter says:

                It also doesn’t hurt that LITERALLY almost everyone is related to one another in Iceland. There’s even an phone app that will warn you if you are close to someone of the opposite sex that is too genetically close to you for marriage/reproduction.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Did some research.

                There’s about 1 gun for every 3 Icelanders. That seems like a relatively high amount of gun density, suggesting that most households have a weapon on hand. How readily on hand? I haven’t figured that out yet, but there are suggestions that no one is sleeping with a loaded handgun under their pillow the way I’ve heard some Americans brag about.

                The background checking involved in being “not-crazy” to standards of Icelandic governmental acceptability is substantially more intrusive than we would ever endure here in the United States. You get an interview by the sheriff who asks what it is that you want to do with the gun, you must undergo a physical and mental health examination, and you must pass a weeks-long firearms safety and skills class. The entire process of initiating official inquiries into getting a gun and then actually having it can take a year or more.

                But. Iceland hasn’t had a gun murder since 2007, and the only police shooting of a suspect in the nation’s history was ten years ago. The chief of police apologized to the victim’s family. As far as I can tell, there are almost no homicides of any sort. Comparing the total population with the posted murder rate suggests that there was one homicide in the entire country in 2019. Note that the rate shot up to five homicides in 2020, a wave of violence that had never been seen before. (Imagine what people would have said about Portland had its murder rate quintupled in one year!)

                Dark Matter is probably right that there are powerful cultural factors at work here. Iceland is atypical in a lot of ways, even compared to its European counterparts.

                But it’s not true that almost no one has guns. The Icelanders just don’t use them on each other.

                https://www.statista.com/statistics/1268647/homicide-rate-iceland/

                https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iceland-gun-loving-country-no-shooting-murders-2007-n872726Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              You’re claiming every culture in the world is equally murderous.
              How about we limit this to the US.

              Men in other USA neighborhoods make passes at women and get told “go away” by their boyfriends. And that happens without the guns coming out.

              The problem follows that culture around. It doesn’t follow gun access around or every zip in the US would have the same murder rate.

              Now if you have a way to disarm that specific culture, by all means, put that on the table. Far as I can tell, we’ve already tried to disarm that specific culture and we’ve failed.

              If we can’t disarm the people doing the shooting then we’re stuck with pretending that we have a different problem. That’s why we get proposed laws pointed at law abiding zero murder zip codes.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Why limit ourselves to the US?

                When we want to talk about the difficulty of building high speed rail in California or a subway in Seattle, its sensible to compare these things to our peer nations and notice that they can somehow build superior transportation systems for far less.

                Our closest, most similar nations like Canada or Australia or the UK watch the same teevee shows, the same films, listen to the same music and go to the same churches.
                A lot of Canadian cities are used by Hollywood as doubles for New York or Chicago, because everything looks and feels so similar.
                There’s no reason, other than guns, why the level of violence in Toronto or Vancouver or Calgary should be much different than Detroit, Chicago or Seattle, but it is.

                If you want to talk about “dysfunctional subcultures” the only uniquely American dysfunctional subculture is our bizarre American fetish for guns.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Why limit ourselves to the US?

                Because everywhere in the US has access to guns. Thus we can do apples to apples comparisons and see if your “murder rates follow gun access around” argument works.

                What we see instead is high murder rates follow cultures around and not gun access.

                There’s no reason, other than guns, why the level of violence in Toronto or Vancouver or Calgary should be much different than Detroit, Chicago or Seattle, but it is.

                Those places have very different demographics from our violent places.

                If we match them up with demographically similar rates in the US we see the same murder rates. Vancouver could be matched against Irvine California (600k vs 300k people, similar percentages).

                Of course Irvine typically has a murder rate of zero so there’s that.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                It isn’t that the presence of guns causes murder, but that the presence of guns changes assault to murder, a deranged knife attack into a mass slaughter.

                You’re attempting to essentialize dysfunctional communities but getting cause and effect confused. You use murder rate to assign the label of dysfunction, but the murder rate only exists because of guns.

                Every city like Toronto or London or Tokyo has some dysfunctional groups or individuals, but they aren’t able to turn a casual insult into a slaughter.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I’ve never heard of a drive-by stabbing.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                2021 Canadian stats as far as I could find them:
                38.25 million population, with about 25 million white, 1.5 million black, and the remainder “racialized” other. There were 762 homicides in the country, with 515 reported white, and about half of the remaining being black, so let’s figure 123. That works out to a murder rate of 1.99 all, 2.06 white, 8.2 black, and 1.05 racialized other.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Pinky says:

                That works out to a murder rate of 1.99 all, 2.06 white, 8.2 black, and 1.05 racialized other.

                If I’m reading the graph correctly, that murder rate for whites matches US’s murder rate for whites.

                They do better for Black and I have no idea what “racialized other” means so I’ll ignore it.

                Their overall rate largely matches their white rate, not because they don’t have a more violent sub-culture but because it’s smaller and less violent than ours.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Dark Matter says:

                “Racialized” seems to be their word for non-white. If I’m reading their demographics correctly, a lot of that is indigenous and Asian. Canada doesn’t provide crime stats by race, so I had to back these out, but it would appear that the black murder rate is 4x the white rate.Report

        • Brandon Berg in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          There’s a common swindle pulled by anti-gun activists, where they compare gun deaths in the US, or in states with high gun ownership, to gun deaths in countries or states with low gun ownership. Despite the obvious fallacy, I see this all the time. Much more often than I see comparisons of total homicides and suicides.

          The thing is, we don’t care about gun suicides or gun homicides as such. We care about suicides and homicides. The US doesn’t have 250 times as many suicides as the UK overall. It has about ten times as many: A fivefold increase because the US has five times the population, and a twofold increase because the US has roughly twice the per-capita suicide rate.

          Twice the suicide per capita is still pretty bad, but you understand that 250 is two full orders of magnitude greater than two, right? Seriously, just don’t do this. It’s intellectually trashy. That aside, there are two things you have to take into account here:

          1. The UK has a relatively low suicide rate by European standards. I don’t know why this is, but this is not the norm.

          2. As you can see in the chart above, the US currently has a relatively high suicide rate compared to other wealthy countries, but in 2000 it was at the low end. Over the past twenty years, suicide has risen in the US, while falling in many European countries (also some good news from Japan, which had long been notorious for high suicide rates).

          It’s not entirely clear why suicide rates have increased over the last 20 years in the in the US. Gun ownership has been stable or declining over that period. Socioeconomic explanations, popular for ideological reasons, run into the inconvenient fact that the suicide rate has been steadily rising through good times and bad. Note also in the linked chart that Greece has maintained a rock-bottom suicide rate throughout the implosion of their economy.

          My pet theory is opioid abuse, which has been rising over that time period and is a known risk factor for suicide, but this is speculative. One point of evidence in favor of this is that the black suicide rate in the US, traditionally much lower than the white suicide rate, has been climbing over the past few years in tandem with the increase in their opioid overdose rates.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Brandon Berg says:

            The evidence is pretty incontrovertible that access to guns makes a big difference, with suicides, homicides and mass killings.

            Every one of our peer countries has roughly the same amount of depressed people, criminal people, psychotic people. Roughly the same number of gangs, drug addicts, and dysfunctional subcultures.

            There isn’t any explanation for why, when it comes to violence, rural Alabama or Ohio should resemble the former president called a “3rd World sh1thole country” other than, we make it easy to kill people here.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              “…and dysfunctional subcultures”

              Stats?Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Roughly the same number of gangs, drug addicts, and dysfunctional subcultures.

              I’m pretty sure this isn’t right. Actually I’m pretty sure the percentage of dysfunctional subculture sets the murder rate everywhere.

              It’s been more than a decade since I’ve seen someone look up the stats and they used demographics so there’s room to be wrong.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Mass shootings and open carry of weapons is the type of visible disorder that the American Right is prone to tolerate in the same way the Anglophone left tolerates drug use by homeless people on the streets. Tolerating mass shootings is worse because it leaves people dead.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq says:

        Yes, unlike homeless drug abuse.

        There are a handful of responses to visible disorder.
        1. The Rich tend to hire Private Security. The private security can be armed. Remember Richard Heller? He was the guy who carried a gun as part of his job in private security and he applied for a handgun permit and was denied. It’s his name on DC vs. Heller.
        2. “Vigilantism”. This is the attitude that says “Well, we can’t afford private security. Better carry a gun myself.”

        It kinda strikes me as distasteful when folks from #1 mock folks from #2.Report

        • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

          Hey, Lee, are you Rich and do you have Private Security? No, me neither. Know anyone else here who is and does?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

            There are a couple of fairly subtle ways to do it. Work at a place with security guards, for example.

            I work at a place with security guards, after all.

            Live in a gated community is another.

            There are a lot of little ways to take advantage of an umbrella.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

              My office building has what one might refer to as security guards. They’re unarmed, so they are more like receptionists. My home doesn’t have any security guards. And damn few of us live in gated communities. If you have anyone around here in mind, name names.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Oh, so you work in a building with security guards too.

                I’ve actually had conversations with our guards and I’ve talked to them about carrying. They work for a security guard company (Pinkerton adjacent) and I asked about guns and whatnot and, seriously, this is something that they talk about among themselves.

                The job where we are is *NOT* one with guns but it could be if our management paid for it but they have a number of guards who have their permits and so transitioning to carrying would be trivial for at least one of the guards at work (there used to be two, but he got a job as a prison guard for a nice raise).

                There’s also a bit of a weird pay thing. The guard that I spoke to told me that he got offered our gig for $X or a gig where he could carry for a couple of bucks an hour *LESS*. He took the more money. He told me that there are guys who would prefer to carry the gun.

                Go figure.

                The community that I live in isn’t a gated one but it is close enough to our local SLAC that the police respond to calls quickly enough to help you hang up the phone.

                Lotta umbrellas out there to be under.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                So you don’t have armed security either. Interesting to know. Do you feel less secure because of that?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                No, not particularly.

                But I live in one of the Icelandic zip codes.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Security is a funny concept.
                Lotta people think in terms of the ADT television ads, where the threat is from some swarthy hooded figure kicking in a door, thwarted by the Man With A Gun.

                Except…in most of these mass shootings, the killer is a trusted person who is customarily allowed into the security umbrella without question.

                Like, the Texas shooter.
                If you were at a mall and saw him walk in the door carrying a gun, would you freak out or just nod and turn back to what you were doing?

                This is why I say the spree shootings are so corrosive to public order because they remind us that no one is trusted, nowhere is safe.

                The next shooter might be your kid’s kindergarten teacher, or the accountant at your work or the choir director at church.

                So even if mass shootings ae statistically insignificant, politically and culturally they are the equal of a terrorist attack, every day.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Eh, I think it’s a “soft target” situation.

                Which house are you more likely to burgle? The one with a “THIS HOUSE PROTECTED BY SMITH AND WESSON” and “FORGET THE DOG, BEWARE OF OWNER!” signs or the one with “DEFUND THE POLICE! ABOLISH THE 2ND AMENDMENT!” signs in front of it?Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                The former, because they’re advertising that there are guns to steal.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                I went to google thinking “surely there are statistics on this” but all of the hits are ads for security companies and they all say “THE HOUSES MOST LIKELY TO BE BURGLED ARE THE HOUSES IN *YOUR* DEMOGRAPHIC! BUY OUR PRODUCT!”Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                I don’t know the statistics, but cops specifically tell people not to put those signs up (on their homes or cars), because it’s like painting a target on your home/vehicle.

                Now, cops lie a lot, but not usually to the people who are likely to put up a sign about owning a gun, so…Report

      • Pinky in reply to LeeEsq says:

        Open carry isn’t visible disorder. If anything, it’s visible order.Report

        • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

          Interestingly in my CCW class the instructor said open carry outside of some kind of obvious official purpose was a good way to get shot. I kind of agree, even if I wouldn’t totally prohibit it.Report

          • Greg In Ak in reply to InMD says:

            Heard a story from a cop i knew about open carry.

            He said was trained NEVER to let anyone he carried outside of work. Story was of a cop who was friendly with a quik e mart clerk who knew he carried when out of uniform. Mart was being held up when off duty cop came in. The crooks were trying to stay hidden so they told the clerk to just not say anything. Clerk panics when off duty cop comes in and yells that he is being robbed. Crooks shoot cop before he even knew what was happening. If he had been open carrying would have been dead no matter what. If he had concealed carry he could have survived.

            Open carry is not about defense. It’s about showing off your gun thus making yourself the first person shooters will kill.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to Greg In Ak says:

              That’s just the price of freedom.Report

            • Chris in reply to Greg In Ak says:

              I don’t know about elsewhere, but even in a place like Texas, open carrying is a good way to get the cops called on you. I’ve seen it happen many times.

              Also, in most places, you’ll be given a wide berth, or people will just leave when they see you, so if you want to hang out at the dog park with no other people or dogs, a good thing to do is walk in wearing a gun on your belt.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chris says:

                In the vast majority of contexts normal people interpret it as threatening, not reassuring. I don’t see why anyone would see that as controversial regardless of how one feels about law and public policy.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to InMD says:

                I certainly would! And have, on the occasions I’ve seen people open carrying, mainly on my journeys to Southern and Eastern Oregon.

                And by “people” who I’ve seen open carrying, I mean “men,” and by “men,” I mean “middle-aged white men.”

                I don’t fear the gun, I respect its power. I fear the dude carrying it. I fear him because he’s made it a point to wander around with a weapon on display, making a plain statement that he has the capability to use it. So I fear that he has a temper, that he’s short on patience, that he’s intolerant of conflict, that he’s got some kind of a chip on his shoulder. The fact that this guy has chosen to open carry makes it seem more likely in my mind that he possesses those personality traits than otherwise.

                Because even in rural places populated mainly by very conservative, gun-loving folks, places like Southern or Eastern Oregon, open carrying is unusual, ostentatious behavior.Report

              • InMD in reply to Burt Likko says:

                I used to see it in Virginia occasionally, but haven’t in a pretty long time, now that NoVa (where I am most likely to be) has been completely subsumed as a DC suburb. I am less likely to feel threatened so much as think the person is a dumbass I do not need to be in proximity of, lest something dumb happen.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

          Philando Castile and Tamir Rice were not available for comment.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to LeeEsq says:

        Tolerating mass shootings is worse…

        Tolerate How? Do you have a workable solution? Is this the part where we outlaw “military style” guns and expect mass murderers who plan for years will give up because their gun isn’t green?Report

  5. Jaybird says:

    White Supremacy has evolved since I was a kid.

    None of these new guys could join the Ida Lewis Yacht Club of Newport. They could work in the kitchen… but we wouldn’t let them *JOIN*.Report